Utopia Talk / Politics / Checking in with Shannon

Seb Member	Thu Feb 28 06:23:03 Hey, So how do you think brexit is going then? Bad luck on the Aussies going for the French subs, but it was always very obvious that's the way they would go.
jergul large member	Thu Feb 28 06:41:42 Seb You do know that historically, the Anglosphere let the French build all the shipped it liked, then simply captured them, and slapped on a union jack, right?
jergul large member	Thu Feb 28 06:41:55 ships*
Seb Member	Thu Feb 28 08:06:13 Submarines are boats jergul. Boats.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Feb 28 12:35:52 Seb hates his own country. Proof.
Seb Member	Thu Feb 28 14:12:41 No. I like my country very much Sam. That's why I don't want to see it make a catastrophic mistake because a bunch of idiots have stupid ideas.
Rugian Member	Thu Feb 28 14:52:59 "That's why I don't want to see it make a catastrophic mistake" Being independent is a catastrophic mistake?
Im better then you 2012 UP Football Champ	Thu Feb 28 14:55:04 Considering the last couple of Brit PMs.....YES!!!!!
jergul large member	Thu Feb 28 16:45:56 I dunno. How bad would it be if the one star state declared independence? It would have the advantage of being one of one states wanting independence. As opposed to the 1 of 4 States of England, Scotland, Wales and Nothern Ireland wanting independence. Or in sum: Fuck of you ignoramus.
jergul large member	Thu Feb 28 16:47:23 Lone star state and fuck off* but the point remains the same.
Seb Member	Thu Feb 28 17:05:16 Rugian: We are and always were independent.
Seb Member	Thu Feb 28 17:19:02 For the best part of half a millennium British strategy has been to avoid a dominant power unifying the continent against us. Leaving the EU does precisely that because we are no longer in the room when the important issues are decided. So yes, Rugian, it would be a catastrophic mistake, as it would greatly diminish British power and influence, more than it has already done. Brexit doesn't achieve "independence" or "sovereignty" (we already have that), it restricts our ability to shape our neighborhood - it reduces our power. Power is what matters, n00b.
Rugian Member	Thu Feb 28 17:32:25 Aw, looks like I hit a nerve. What's the matter, the UK withdrawing from the fishing convention poses a threat to your monthly income or something? I am in favor of American states being able to become independent if they desire btw. If the residents of the One Star (lol you foreigner) clearly want to leave the union, it seems illogical to me to force them to stay. If that opens the floodgates to further DoIs, so be it. Not that any of this matters, since the EU is not the same as the US after all.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Feb 28 17:32:58 You have no power. You are a depressing nation full of failed socialists who are desperate to shake off even the memory of success by eliminating your own heritage and importing third worlders
Rugian Member	Thu Feb 28 17:35:36 " We are and always were independent." Seb, The goal of the EU is to move toward ever-closer union. If you think that the UK alone could have prevented that indefinitely, then we'll have to agree to disagree.
Rugian Member	Thu Feb 28 17:39:19 Ultimately, membership in the EU is not a requirement to do business with the EU. The UK constitutes a good 15% of the union's GDP, which is pretty significant. At the end of the day, you do have bargaining power, whether you exercise it or not.
Seb Member	Thu Feb 28 17:53:26 Rugian: Wake me up when Germany is willing to undertake fiscal transfers. Being in the EU and securing opt outs has served us well.
Seb Member	Thu Feb 28 18:18:03 "Ultimately, membership in the EU is not a requirement to do business with the EU" Really? Did the last 24 months pass you by completely? Tell me, which country that's not a member has undeterred rights to sell financial services into the EU? Leaving imposes huge costs. Then there's the Irish border. A customs border is quite likely a breach of the Dublin accords, and thanks to Ireland the EU has made clear it will not allow any kind of FTA (yay, 30% tariffs on cars) unless NI stays in too. But then that means a customs border between the mainland, which the Unionists also feel is a breach of the GFA. Leaving the EU means whacking up various points of friction in trade, which has huge real world costs. And for what gain? It's not like the UK can actually set product standards that would be economical for anyone else to set up new product lines to produce to. Even UK manufacturers will simply prefer to have one line meeting EU standards and lobby the UK not to diverge. Further, the EU already has fta trade deals with most of the world. During the two year implementation phase, those third countries we trade freely with now via the EU treaties will have tarrif free access to UK markets via the EU, but we will have no direct access to them. And afterwards, because the UK market is relatively small, are highly unlikely to offer as good terms as the EU has won, even if we weren't then facing a cliff edge in two years. So, yes, one can still do some form of business under WTO rules, but at vastly increased costs and bureaucracy, with no prospect of any kind of benefit. Even the notional sovereignty won is undermined as the relative size means no UK company is really going to actually want divergent standards. They'll simply build to EU standards in order to ensure they can export to that larger market. Standards we will no longer get a say in setting. And we've not even got into just in time manufacturing - hence the job losses in car plants recently. Even most Brexiteers have given up on this facile, naive talking points. The only sensible brexit trade policy is if you intend to go full on protectionist. Only of course, having spent the last 40 years championing global free trade and building a huge amount of our growth on focusing on industries with comparative advantage, we are highly reliant on imports to maintain current wealth and standards of living which must be paid for with exports at a time when the major trading blocks are closing down, were we need to replicate 70-90 trade treaties over night just to maintain the same level of market access we enjoyed through EU treaties, and where every one of those countries will be looking to improve their terms because they know we are under pressure, and they also know we lack both the diversity of the EU (we wont be able to have high tariffs given the cost increases this imposes on consumers) nor the market size of the EU (gaining access to our markets is less valuable, so why should they make as many concessions to secure it). Trying to adopt national and sufficiency overnight is impossible, not least when a driving force in all of this is opposition to migration, whichb would be the only way to build the missing industries. To still be burbling about "being able to do business" withput even this simple first order level of detail marks you out as a complete ignoramus on this subject Rugian. And fair does. Your a brain rotted MAGA tool. You've no reason to be looking into the detail of this. But please don't bother to try and educate me on this matter when I've been living it since before the bloody referendum and briefing ministers on options to mitigate the myriad of cluster fucks that come from trying to rip up 40 years of legislative, regulatory and economic integration in 2 years. I'm a firm believer that the absolute purpose of the British state is to further and advance the interests of the British people. There are no material benefits to brexit bar a delusional belief that it somehow increases the UK's scope to act. Yet it does not. It constrains it greatly in every way, while simultaneously making us significantly poorer. I'm rabidly against impoverishing the country just because it is the only way that some idiots with fragile egos can feel a sense of pride. They should get a knife and cut their own noses off if they want to spite their face. FFS - the Single Market was one of Thatcher's keynote policies.
jergul large member	Fri Mar 01 00:31:38 Thu Feb 28 16:47:23 Lone star state and fuck off* Thu Feb 28 17:32:25 If the residents of the One Star (lol you foreigner) =========== The US is simply a federation of states far older than the EU. So when you talk about deferring sovereignty, you would need to look at both federations in that context. They are of course not the same. Because you are and have always been apeshit crazy. See Brexit and the EUs reaction compared to the American Civil War.
McKobb Member	Fri Mar 01 11:01:34 You mean the war of northern aggression.
jergul large member	Fri Mar 01 11:06:18 A better term. War is hardly civil.
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