Utopia Talk / Politics / mass shooting in Hobbiton :/

tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Mar 15 00:03:27 two mosques shot up in Christchurch, New Zealand... sounds like a bad place for a mosque "We have multiple fatalities. At this point, I can't say how many, but it is significant." developing story
Camaban The Overseer	Fri Mar 15 00:22:14 Read the guy's manifesto. This is basically a troll. To get people from both sides to fight each other more. I'm giving him a 5/7 for originality.
jergul large member	Fri Mar 15 00:25:24 "Read the guy's manifesto" Of course you did. "This is basically a troll" OMG The shooter was likely Australian. What a surprise.
Y2A Member	Fri Mar 15 00:39:12 "from both sides" The stupidity begins.
Camaban The Overseer	Fri Mar 15 01:20:19 >>Of course you did. << I can see why you'd be against being informed. >>OMG<< It's an extreme troll, but that's basically what it is. I'm amazed that the person from the country that gave the world Breivik is that easy to shock. I'll put it down to you being proud of being weaker than a woman in her 60's. >>The shooter was likely Australian. What a surprise.<< Australians and New Zealanders move between countries quite frequently. As an example, I'm a New Zealand citizen. >>The stupidity begins.<< Well. It's working. There's a huge laundry list of things you can say against him. But on this particular bit, he's not wrong.
Y2A Member	Fri Mar 15 01:35:40 "he identified himself as 28-year-old Australian-born Brenton Tarrant.[17] Prior to the shooting, he posted a manifesto titled "The Great Replacement" (a reference to the white genocide conspiracy theory and its French variant) on the image board 8chan outlining his attack and identifying as a "Ethno-nationalist Eco-fascist" taking inspiration from British Union of Fascists leader Oswald Mosley.[18] The shooter's Twitter account, which has since been suspended, showed firearms with the neo-Nazi symbol Black Sun and the Fourteen Words (which appeared in the manifesto), as well as xenophobic messages scrawled on them.[17][19]"
Y2A Member	Fri Mar 15 01:36:48 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christchurch_mosque_shootings
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Mar 15 01:43:11 "This is no mosque... it's a tomb." ~ a first responder ...but this is no time for jokes
Camaban The Overseer	Fri Mar 15 01:43:35 https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1rAO-CWsAE8fFS.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1rA2jQWwAIVBbG.png
Camaban The Overseer	Fri Mar 15 01:44:46 >>...but this is no time for jokes<< 23.3 more years needed?
hood Member	Fri Mar 15 02:06:58 ""This is no mosque... it's a tomb." ~ a first responder ...but this is no time for jokes" I think we should call it your grave! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znxFrgql5dc
Paramount Member	Fri Mar 15 02:25:06 Any connection to Israel? Does he talk about the need to fight for Israel?
zavyx Member	Fri Mar 15 03:23:08 49 dead mudders, WOOHOO!!! best news I've heard in a decade.
Daemon Member	Fri Mar 15 04:05:41 Oh he was an enemy of Merkel, too: TATP packages strapped to drones,an EFP in a motorcycle saddle bags, convoy ambush rammings with cement trucks. Any method that gives these traitors their sure reward is viable and should be encouraged. Where there is a will, there is a way. Merkel, the mother of all things anti-white and anti-germanic, is top of the list. Google for "the great replacement.pdf" if you want to read it.
Paramount Member	Fri Mar 15 05:57:19 "Merkel, the mother of all things anti-white and anti-germanic, is top of the list." Merkel is a white Christian woman. Funny how this guy seems to hate her as much as Donald Trump does.
murder Member	Fri Mar 15 06:20:52 Once real world consequences are involved, you are no longer trolling.
Camaban The Overseer	Fri Mar 15 06:33:10 Why? It's not the literal definition, but he's after the spirit of trolling. He's a murderous bastard as well, but if this wasn't an IRL troll, I don't see what could be.
Paramount Member	Fri Mar 15 07:13:00 Were/are you a fascist? Yes. For once, the person that will be called a fascist, is an actual fascist. I am sure the journalists will love that. I mostly agree with Sir Oswald Mosley’s views and consider myself an Eco-fascist by nature. The nation with the closest political and social values to my own is the People’s Republic of China. http://www...ement-New-Zealand-Shooter.html So the guy is a wannabe China-man?
Camaban The Overseer	Fri Mar 15 07:15:50 Xi is an ethno nationalist who puts minorities into concentration camps. Where he differs from Hitler is Hitler wouldn't put Jewish organs into Aryan patients. Xi is on board with organ harvesting.
murder Member	Fri Mar 15 07:38:37 Camaban seems to be angling for another move ... into a Chinese concentration camp. Aren't you in or headed to China?
Camaban The Overseer	Fri Mar 15 07:42:57 His thing is uighur Muslims. I'm fine.
Hrothgar Member	Fri Mar 15 08:01:48 Awful news. Interesting that I'm not seeing any claims about Christianity. Just that he hates non-white immigrants. Are the majority of immigrants to New Zealand Islamic?
Sam Adams Member	Fri Mar 15 08:40:46 Meh. Live by the sword, die by the sword.
murder Member	Fri Mar 15 08:47:10 "His thing is uighur Muslims. I'm fine." Yeah ... I wouldn't bet on that. They are kind of thin skinned about criticism of their leadership.
murder Member	Fri Mar 15 08:53:58 "Why?" Because the primary reaction he was looking to elicit was death. This wasn't about agitating anyone. It was about killing muslims. "It's not the literal definition, but he's after the spirit of trolling." His "manifesto" my be a troll job, but the mass murder was just that.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Mar 15 08:59:11 Part and parcel of joining the religion that does this all the time? Hmmmm?
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Fri Mar 15 09:47:59 http://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1sy0c2WoAAglyO.jpg
obaminated Member	Fri Mar 15 10:12:01 Wait why is his manifesto a troll job? I guess him saying candace Owen's is a bit extreme for him is a bit trolly... considering he became a mass murderer.
patom Member	Fri Mar 15 10:35:55 Have fun trying to analyze and make sense of the rantings of a nutcase like this. There is no sense to be made.
Wrath of Orion Member	Fri Mar 15 11:05:23 This guy was nothing compared to Lennart Bedrager.
Rugian Member	Fri Mar 15 11:10:32 Fraser Anning is a brave soul. RIP his career though.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Mar 15 11:14:06 Christianity is illegal in our good friend Saudi Arabia... so banning Islam in other countries should be fine Senator Fraser Anning (Mar 15 09:47:59) sounds like a good guy
Trolly McDick Member	Fri Mar 15 11:24:50 We all know that forwyn and Rugian are completely having repetitive orgasm over this shit.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Fri Mar 15 11:44:09 http://twitter.com/MelanieLatest/status/1106531354085343232
Paramount Member	Fri Mar 15 12:23:42 Why is it that no one has massacred right-winged extremists and fascists in this matter in recent time? Last time was when the Liberal democracies bombed Germany and Italy and hung the facists. But in recent time...? Are the Liberals just going to let the fascists continue to murder innocent people and get away with it? Do you think a team of Liberals will attack a gathering of Fascists soon, and gun them down? If it happened would you support it?
Rugian Member	Fri Mar 15 12:27:04 Paramount Member Fri Mar 15 12:23:42 Why is it that no one has massacred right-winged extremists and fascists in this matter in recent time? Leftists are too weak to effectively use firearms. http://www...ngerous-loud-article-1.2673201
Paramount Member	Fri Mar 15 12:29:40 ^ Unfortunately, our website is currently unavailable in most European countries.
Rugian Member	Fri Mar 15 12:32:10 You should probably move then. http://kno...ts/gersh-kuntzman-s-ar-15-ptsd
Paramount Member	Fri Mar 15 12:35:14 ”Leftists are too weak to effectively use firearms” So you have nothing to worry about then. Therefore, you will be unprepared the Liberals comes ;)
Paramount Member	Fri Mar 15 12:36:12 In the Middle East, muslims, arabs, persians and kurds has fought the terrorist fascists, waged a war against them, and killed them. When will the Westerners take to arms and fight and kill all the homegrown fascists in our countries?
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Mar 15 12:36:28 from manifesto: " Q: Were/are you a supporter of Donald Trump? A: As a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose? Sure. As a policy maker and leader? Dear god no. " he sounds reasonable
Paramount Member	Fri Mar 15 12:41:26 *unprepared WHEN then liberals comes
Rugian Member	Fri Mar 15 12:46:45 ^thanks for inspiring me to become more entrenched in my beliefs about Second Amendment rights, Parafail. As long as people like you exist, people like me need access to the most advanced weaponry money can buy.
Paramount Member	Fri Mar 15 12:59:18 You are welcome. Make sure you have sufficient ammo, and start excercising a little bit so you are fit for fight when it comes.
patom Member	Fri Mar 15 13:06:08 Isn't the ANTIFA giving the Neo white bunch problems? I hear enough bleating from the right about the terrors of the Antifa.
Rugian Member	Fri Mar 15 13:08:23 The only reason we let you faggots mouth off so much is because we recognize it for the nonsense that it is. The second you try to seriously threaten us, we will wipe you and all your kind off the planet. Something to keep in mind while you're wearing your pussy hat and protesting the lack of pansexual LatinX tranny representation in whatever industry the outrage has turned its sights to today.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Fri Mar 15 13:32:30 http://goh...pQPJId4wVNsI0wpHkLxmGAXrj1JnCg
Rugian Member	Fri Mar 15 13:50:14 ^why did you think that was worth posting, exactly?
Rugian Member	Fri Mar 15 13:57:03 Actually, I just looked up what the "problem" with that statement was, and it's completely stupid. I challenge anyone here to identify what's considered controversial about it without googling first.
Paramount Member	Fri Mar 15 14:12:35 The problem is either a) that he is condemning the massacre, or b) that he is saying that terrorists should go to a court of law to resolve their controversies: ”There are courts, dispute resolutions, and legislatures to resolve controversies”
Sam Adams Member	Fri Mar 15 14:16:57 Ahhh the kuntzman ar15 article. The gift that keeps on giving
Camaban The Overseer	Fri Mar 15 16:41:22 http://youtu.be/5nsd9w3dHrI
Rugian Member	Fri Mar 15 17:12:07 Aw, did this fucker really blame Pewdiepie for this? What a (mass murdering) faggot.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Fri Mar 15 17:59:08 Limbaugh Floats "False Flag" Theory NZ Shooter Is "Leftist" Who Staged Attack To Frame Conservatives http://www...eftist-who-staged-attack-frame
Rugian Member	Fri Mar 15 17:59:23 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exZrYHJGT88
Camaban The Overseer	Fri Mar 15 21:53:53 What he did was give a name the media would jump on without a moment of thought.
The Third Reich Member	Sat Mar 16 05:13:57 This is a proud moment. Rugian, when are you going to complete your manifesto?
Allahuakbar Member	Sat Mar 16 05:21:47 http://www.irna.ir/en/News/83244517 Zarif: Iranians not surprised by terror attacks Tehran, March 15, IRNA - Iranian foreign minister in a message referred to Iranians' awareness of the consequences of bigotry and hatred, saying they are not surprised by terrorist attacks. 'Iranians are deeply shocked and saddened by Christchurch terror today. But we're not surprised,' Mohammad Javad Zarif tweeted on Friday. He added 'Banned from travel to the US, and not allowed to abide by our faith if attending French schools, we Iranians know too well what bigotry and hatred of Islam augur.' At least 49 people have been killed so far, and 50 seriously injured, after gunmen opened fire at two mosques in the New Zealand city of Christchurch on Friday when hundreds of Muslims had gathered to say their prayers. Earlier Iran Foreign Ministry Spokesman Bahram Qasemi said any terrorist act, anywhere in the world, carried out by anybody under any motive, must be condemned by all the countries. Meanwhile, earlier Zarif in a separate Twitter message said 'Impunity in Western 'democracies' to promote bigotry leads to this: -Israeli thugs enter mosque in Palestine to insult Muslims; -Terrorists in NZ livestream their murder of 49 Muslims, Western hypocrisy of defending demonization of Muslims as 'freedom of expression' MUST end.' In addition to Iran, the United Nations Secretary General António Guterres, EU Foreign Policy chief Federica Mogherini, Iraq, Jordan, Bahrain, Qatar and Turkey have so far slammed the deadly incident and expressed sympathy with victims of the sad occasion. 9376**2050
Asgard Member	Sat Mar 16 05:48:36 arabs - 34342342341 west - 1
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Sat Mar 16 06:07:33 http://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1wjD8QU8AAM6SQ.jpg
Paramount Member	Sat Mar 16 06:12:38 ”any terrorist act, anywhere in the world, carried out by anybody under any motive, must be condemned by all the countries. ” Are we still waiting for Israel to condemn this terror attack?
Asgard Member	Sat Mar 16 08:25:55 Still waiting on NZ to condemn countless attacks that happened in Israel, yes.
jergul large member	Sat Mar 16 11:47:57 The irony here is of course that the attacks will cause far more people to convert, than were killed. The man failed at his own agenda. I rather think he knew that as he was chased away by an man with an empty weapon (who finally threw it through the car window pane as the mass-murderer drove off). Nice that the attacks ended by a hero intervening.
Paramount Member	Sat Mar 16 12:08:20 Who are the other two men and the woman who was arrested along with the shooter?
Asgard Member	Sat Mar 16 13:12:21 Jews, obviously. They were probably caught cheering on a roof of a nearby building, hi-fi'ing each other for the great Mossad success, a la 9-11.
jergul large member	Sat Mar 16 13:50:09 Asgard Were you disputing that Israeli nationals were arrested for being happy about 9-11 (or technically, cheering for how 9-11 would improve Israeli security)? I don't really see the angle from Christchurch. How is this supposed to improve Israeli security?
Paramount Member	Sat Mar 16 14:05:25 That the media has been silent on the other three, who they are etc, can only mean that the media is trying to cover up their identities.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Sat Mar 16 15:23:17 Senator Fraser Anning taking an egg to the head then bitch slapping attacker http://www.liveleak.com/view?t=Cicuw_1552734821
murder Member	Sat Mar 16 16:41:43 The saddest commentary on our time is that kid recording himself slamming that guy in the head with an egg. Less a protest than an attempt to become social media famous.
Asgard Member	Sat Mar 16 17:24:55 Well, you see Jergul - When paramount says something "I wonder who", it's always with a slight hint that "who" = "Jew". You should ask him that question, not me.
Average Ameriacn Member	Sat Mar 16 18:03:49 Australia has no free speech! http://usa...w-zealand-massacre/3184724002/ Australia — home of the suspected gunman in the killing of at least 50 people at a New Zealand mosque — has banned alt-right firebrand Milo Yiannopoulos from touring the country over his social media response to the massacre. Yiannopoulos, a fierce critic of Islam who was set to visit Australia this year, had said on Facebook that attacks like Christchurch happen because “the establishment panders to and mollycoddles extremist leftism and barbaric, alien religious cultures.” Australian Immigration Minister David Coleman said in a statement that Yiannopoulos’ social media comments are “appalling and foment hatred and division.” Coleman didn’t specify which comments by Yiannopoulos he was referring to. Ironically, Coleman's condemnation comes only a week after he had approved a visa for the controversial British commentator and alt-right star against the advice of the Home Affairs department, which warned that Yiannopoulos may fail the character test to enter the country. It was to be the first tour of Australia for the former Breitbart senior editor since 2017, when clashes between Milo supporters and opponents in Melbourne deteriorated into shoving matches that prompted seven arrests. The flamboyant commentator, who regularly lashes out against feminism, social justice and political correctness, quickly took to social media with a response: "I'm banned from Australia, again, after a statement in which I said I abhor political violence," Yiannopoulos said on social media after the announcement. The right-wing commentator had already stirred up controversy among Australian lawmakers in advance of the planned 2019 visit in a political debate over whether he should be allowed in. On Twitter, Labor MP Tony Burke praised the decision to ban Yiannopoulos. "Milo banned. Good. His overnight comments weren't that different from how he has always behaved," he said. "There was already enough evidence to ban him which is why the department had already recommended he be banned. The Australian tours for the world's hate speakers must stop," he added. Yiannopoulos resigned as a senior editor from Bretbart in 2017 following remarks he made about pedophilia by Roman Catholic priests and his endorsement of sexual relations with boys as young as 13.
McKobb Member	Sat Mar 16 22:39:17 As long as things are cool in Oamaru, I'm good.
Rugian Member	Sun Mar 17 06:41:54 NZ Threatens 10 Years In Prison For 'Possessing' Mosque Shooting Video; Web Hosts Warned, 'Dissenter' Banned by Tyler Durden Sat, 03/16/2019 New Zealand authorities have reminded citizens that they face up to 10 years in prison for "knowingly" possessing a copy of the New Zealand mosque shooting video - and up to 14 years in prison for sharing it. Corporations (such as web hosts) face an additional $200,000 ($137,000 US) fine under the same law. On Saturday, journalist Nick Monroe reported that New Zealand police have warned citizens that they face imprisonment for distributing the video, while popular New Zealand Facebook group Wellington Live notes that "NZ police would like to remind the public that it is an offence to share an objectional publication which includes the horrific video from yesterday's attack. If you see this video, report it immediately. Do not download it. Do not share it. If you are found to have a copy of the video or to have shared it, you face fines & potential imprisonment." Along with the censorship of online materials and investigation of content sharing platforms such as BitChute and 8chan - where the shooter posted a link to the livestream of his attack, social discussion service Dissenter has been blocked in New Zealand. Created by the people behind Twitter competitor Gab.ai - Dissenter is a browser extension which pops up a third-party comments section for any website where people can discuss content outside of the control of the website owner. On Saturday, Gab's official accounts (@gab and @getongab) reported that "New Zealand ISPs have banned dissenter.com until it is "censorship compliant."" Update: Shortly after this article published, we were informed that ZeroHedge is unable to be reached by Votafone customers. http://www...hooting-video-web-hosts-warned
Camaban The Overseer	Sun Mar 17 07:01:01 This is why you don't elect someone who says shit like "capitalism has failed us" One scratch and they're Stalin.
jergul large member	Sun Mar 17 07:58:06 Cam The laws are already in the books. So you could just have lead with "That is why you don't elect someone" Period. Full stop. Lots of great leaders would understand that laws written to combat the spread of radicalized Islam do not apply to white people.
Camaban The Overseer	Sun Mar 17 08:07:48 What did Dissenter have to do with any of this, besides it's associated with a recent flavour of the month that supports what's meant to be a Western value?
Camaban The Overseer	Sun Mar 17 08:08:44 He hasn't been wrong on any of the reactions, BTW. It's like this moron who was elected to the most powerful position in her country is his puppet.
Daemon Member	Sun Mar 17 08:18:38 I've watched the video only because I read in another forum that one dead victim changed his socks and that was proof that it was all a big fake I feel stupid now.
jergul large member	Sun Mar 17 08:33:17 Cam Do you think Dissenter is in compliance with pre-existing laws on censorship? I predicted you will be getting a divorce. Would getting a divorce make you my puppet?
Rugian Member	Sun Mar 17 08:33:56 jergul, Shut the fuck up.
jergul large member	Sun Mar 17 08:43:32 Ruggy Now why would I do that? All we have here is a radicalized young man who committed mass murder. A review to keep others from becoming radicalized is in order, just as it is in order to limit access to the tools he used to commit mass murder. The event is a win for the western democratic humanist tradition, a win for Islam that no doubt has already seen a net increase in conversions, and of course a loss for the alt-right and its supporters. So sad :D.
Camaban The Overseer	Sun Mar 17 08:44:01 The list of sites that don't comply with nz censorship laws is excessively long. This is selective enforcement against a site that has nothing to do with this. Good laws become bad when they're selectively enforced for no better reason than ideology or scapegoating. And if your actions were designed to make me unnecessarily do it, then I did it, yes it would. I'd swear that recently you've gone out of your way to say retarded shit. More so than usual. Why do the simple things need to be explained?
Camaban The Overseer	Sun Mar 17 08:45:04 So you support a travel ban to the EU? His time there is what kicked this off.
jergul large member	Sun Mar 17 08:54:40 Cam A application that has no accountability by design is actually a pretty big issue in principle. I trust that the reason for enforcing the law in this case has to do with proliferation of the video using the application's functions. It would technically not be the PM that ordered the application banned. The minster responsible is: Tracey Martin from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_First His actions were designed to kill people.
jergul large member	Sun Mar 17 08:56:26 Cam Reintroducing Penal Act legislation? Sure. There is a reason you were sent down there in the first place.
Camaban The Overseer	Sun Mar 17 09:01:32 No accountability for what? Publicly expressed opinions? Why should you need accountability for open discussions? And it was Facebook the was used to stream the video. Nice bit of irrelevance at the end of your first post. As for your second.... You think exporting criminals is the same law that would be used for banning people from going to the EU? (which is where he was radicalised) Sounds like in addition to being weaker than my elderly mother, you've been far less resistant to senility.
Paramount Member	Sun Mar 17 09:04:41 I wish someone would start to post videos of Kews being shot/stabbbed or blown up, and not censor that shit. Sure, the relatives to the victims might not like that their loved ones are being killed and defiled over and over again on videos on the internet, but we are supposed to be a civilised democracy with feee speech!! and not a Stalin-country!
jergul large member	Sun Mar 17 09:13:53 Cam What exactly is public about using the application? And yes, public speech needs accountability (see yelling fire in a crowded movie theatre). You tube and facebook that both are held accountable and both have taken measures to purge the video from their sites. It is in fact quite relevant to decide the party affiliation of the Minister responsible for the ban. The Penal Act had measures that blocked people coming from Australia. Enforced in Australia. On a more serious note, the fellow is of course a special brand of batshit crazy. Which would be the root cause of his radicalization. Do I support a lot more money going into mental health services? Yes I do. An ounce of prevention. We will get the full picture of his madness and the warning society was given during his trial. But ultimately, he is society's failing for not providing him with the help he demonstrably needed.
Allahuakbar Member	Sun Mar 17 11:13:28 Erdogan RULZ! http://ahv...d-mosque-attack-election-rally Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan on Saturday during an election rally showed video footage from Friday’s mosque attack in Christchurch, New Zealand which left 49 dead, opposition Sözcü newspaper reported. The Turkish president shared part of the footage the gunman live-streamed on the big screen during a mass rally for his ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) in the northwestern province of Tekirdağ. “How is that a killer, a murderer can move into action with his mind so filled with malice for Muslims and Turks?‘’said Erdoğan, who is on a tour across the country ahead of the March 31 local elections. Erdoğan referred to the so-called manifesto of the Christchurch attacker, 28-year-old Australian citizen Brenton Tarrant, which is said to contain specific references to Turkey and ridding the famed Hagia Sophia Museum of Istanbul of its minarets, among other references to Turkey and the Ottoman Empire. Turkey’s strongman also blasted the leader of main opposition Republican People’s Party (CHP), Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu, accusing him of fuelling hatred against the Muslim world. “What difference is there between you and that Australian senator?‘’ Erdoğan asked, in an apparent reference to far-right Australian Sen.Fraser Anning who, following the attack, said the real cause of bloodshed on New Zealand streets was the immigration program , which had allowed Muslim fanatics to migrate to the country in the first place. “At this point you are with terrorists,‘’ Erdoğan said, referring to a speech by Kılıçdaroğlu on March 15, in which the secularist leader addressed Islamic extremism. ‘’He will pay for this on March 31,‘’ Erdoğan added.
Y2A Member	Sun Mar 17 14:28:18 Erdogan should drone Australia to take out that terrorist sympathizer. Has every right to and there is precedent.
Camaban The Overseer	Sun Mar 17 18:11:02 >>Cam What exactly is public about using the application?<< It's well known and is freely accessible to anyone who cares to look. How public do you need it to be? >>And yes, public speech needs accountability (see yelling fire in a crowded movie theatre). << That's to stop a stampede that could get people injured before they have time to think properly. Not really a possibility with social media. >>You tube and facebook that both are held accountable and both have taken measures to purge the video from their sites. << Here's a photo of Barbara Streisand's back yard. http://upl...jpg/300px-Streisand_Estate.jpg What's the point in purging the video, and why should they do that? You can't stuff this shit back into the bottle. For all its protections, FB didn't manage to do something that was actually live (and I found the guy's twitter feed before twitter did. It's archived and freely accessible) Come on, you've been using the Internet since it became big. How can you still not understand this about it? What goes up stays up as long as some random has an interest in it. Nevermind, I remembered who I'm talking to. Learning isn't your strong suit. >>It is in fact quite relevant to decide the party affiliation of the Minister responsible for the ban. << It's her government, and her ally. But if you feel you must try and distance her from this act, that's fair enough. Why do you feel the need? Either it's something good, in which case, why distance her from it? Or it's something bad, in which case, why argue in favour of it? >>The Penal Act had measures that blocked people coming from Australia. Enforced in Australia. << While it was a prison, yes. But I notice you're evading the the question with this irrelevancy. This man was radicalised by what he saw when he went to Europe. (I can empathise with that, after seeing my first gypsies. Getting their children to pretend to be deaf to scam money disgusted me no end) Should trips to Europe be banned? >>On a more serious note, the fellow is of course a special brand of batshit crazy. Which would be the root cause of his radicalization. << Or he's gone to Europe. If you haven't grown up with that level of migration problems, it's pretty fucked up when you see it for the first time. >>Do I support a lot more money going into mental health services? Yes I do. An ounce of prevention. We will get the full picture of his madness and the warning society was given during his trial. But ultimately, he is society's failing for not providing him with the help he demonstrably needed. << Which has what to do with blocking dissenter? Oh, also, you can't upload videos to dissenter. You can put URLs on it (things which are really easy to change) but it's basically text and images. Even if you want to go the animated gif route... You can put links on it.
Camaban The Overseer	Sun Mar 17 18:16:03 BTW, it's fun to see you've abandoned the puppet argument. That was a particularly retarded misunderstanding of a simple concept on your end. It's nice to see you've got enough self awareness to recognise that, though. Just a pity it needed to be pointed out. IF you could think about your arguments a little more, you could save people a lot of time pointing out obvious shit in a way you can understand.
Camaban The Overseer	Sun Mar 17 18:48:23 http://i.s...-victims-radicalised-at-mosque Maybe shut down the mosque as well. Although keeping in line with you reluctance preventing travel to Europe, it seems a safe bet the you're only in favour of banning unrelated flavours of the month.
jergul large member	Sun Mar 17 19:06:08 Cam If you want a serious debate, then I would argue that accountability is a premise for free speech and that being identifiable is a premise of accountability. Dissenter is quite clear on being held to account to US law. Which actually includes a lot of informal accountability a mere secret request away. Dissenter is also a private organization that cannot grant a free speech arena. In sum, the principle of free speech does not apply as no identifiable individual or organization is invoking the right to free speech when using the application. Trolls hiding behind tags may have that right based on the right to privacy, but they do not at the same time have the right to free speech. Now, in the case in question, it seems that some ISP providers may have blocked Dissenter. So directing the criticism at the minister from the new zealand first party may indeed be incorrect. I am pointing out that you misplaced the target of your stalin comment. I have no need to distance the PM from anything beyond the purpose of pointing to your hypocrisy (or are you willing to call the NZ first Minister a stalin, or perhaps the CEOs of the ISPs?). As I outlined, I do not think unidentifiable persons have the right to freedom of expression, though I do think they have the right to privacy. I also do not approve of universal jurisdiction. Which is implicit to the Dissenter application I have no problem with Dissenter being banned for not following domestic laws, though we have no idea if that actually happened. The man was radicalized because he is batshit crazy. You may want to think a bit about why you can emphasize. "Banning travel to Europe" is a argument ab adsurdum fallacy in addition to being factually incorrect (billions travel to Europe without mishap. One becomes a mass murderer, yet you invoke causation). So, no, I do not advocate a travel ban, nor even a travel advisory oh autistic one. My pointing out that the fellow is batshit crazy was a counter argument to your mistaken belief he shot people because of radicalization in Europe. I would support measures that address the actual problem. Like improved mental health initiatives, but not travel bans to Europe. Abandoning making fun of Australians because of the country's origns? I will never abandon that. Particularly as I know you waste time and effort parsing cliches.
jergul large member	Sun Mar 17 19:15:56 Cam Allegations from 2012 that have been investigated by NZ security forces should lead the the mosque being shut down for what reason exactly (beyond it being a mosque and you wanting a win for your team?).
Camaban The Overseer	Sun Mar 17 23:19:14 >>If you want a serious debate, then I would argue that accountability is a premise for free speech and that being identifiable is a premise of accountability. Dissenter is quite clear on being held to account to US law. Which actually includes a lot of informal accountability a mere secret request away. << Thank you for rendering your own argument on accountability moot. >>Dissenter is also a private organization that cannot grant a free speech arena. >>Trolls hiding behind tags may have that right based on the right to privacy, but they do not at the same time have the right to free speech. << Why not? What does that have to do with whether someone has the right to free speech? >>Now, in the case in question, it seems that some ISP providers may have blocked Dissenter. So directing the criticism at the minister from the new zealand first party may indeed be incorrect.<< So you know the chain of orders/instructions to block this, that or the other? >>As I outlined, I do not think unidentifiable persons have the right to freedom of expression, though I do think they have the right to privacy. << Well, they're identifiable. So that's that argument gone. At a bare minimum, they're identifiable on the same level as they are on Twitter or Facebook. The latter of which was used to live stream this, making it far more involved than Dissenter. And what does their identifiability to some random layman have to do with anything? (Remember: They can be identified, at least as far as someone can be using any other platform) >>The man was radicalized because he is batshit crazy. You may want to think a bit about why you can emphasize. << Why do you think he's crazy? He's made a plan. He's followed through. It's unfolding as he predicted. It's sounding like he's someone who knew what he was doing and how to manipulate others. Where's the craziness? >>I have no problem with Dissenter being banned for not following domestic laws, though we have no idea if that actually happened. << So you have no problem with an excuse being used to ban a completely unrelated platform in which people commit the crime of airing their opinions in the open? Maybe I have misplaced the Stalin remark. Fortunately you're not in power. >>"Banning travel to Europe" is a argument ab adsurdum fallacy in addition to being factually incorrect (billions travel to Europe without mishap. One becomes a mass murderer, yet you invoke causation). So, no, I do not advocate a travel ban, nor even a travel advisory oh autistic one. << So. It's OK to ban a site that has nothing to do with this attack. But it's not OK to ban actions that are the root cause of this attack? Yes, banning travel to Europe is absurd. You know what else is absurd? Banning things that have no connection to this. >>My pointing out that the fellow is batshit crazy was a counter argument to your mistaken belief he shot people because of radicalization in Europe. << It's nice to know that you're against taking actions against things that don't affect the vast majority of people who use it. And yet here you are, being perfectly satisfied with this unrelated site being banned, despite the fact that the vast majority of people who use it have done nothing remotely like this. Some consistency would be nice. >>My pointing out that the fellow is batshit crazy was a counter argument to your mistaken belief he shot people because of radicalization in Europe. << So no-one does anything because they're radicalised by anything, only because they're crazy. Ok. Nice to see another statement against banning anything like this. It doesn't affect the vast majority of people, so censorship shouldn't be needed. In the event something illegal is done by one of the users of a particular medium, we do have ways of tracking the person down, at least as far as is possible with *any* platform on the Internet, so we can use the law to target those who are actually doing something wrong. >>Abandoning making fun of Australians because of the country's origns? I will never abandon that.<< Considering the puppet bit was something quite separate to this, it looks like you've been forced into a bit of dishonesty by pretending that's what was being referred to. That's a hilarious retreat right there. Do you even try to have a consistent thought? >>In sum, the principle of free speech does not apply as no identifiable individual or organization is invoking the right to free speech when using the application. << And this means it's OK to shut it down because... >>Allegations from 2012 that have been investigated by NZ security forces should lead the the mosque being shut down for what reason exactly (beyond it being a mosque and you wanting a win for your team?).<< I don't think it should be. At the same time, I don't think unassociated websites should be. Or even associated ones. However, you're the one who's arguing in favour of banning on a whim as soon as something bad happens. Based on things that your own words show aren't valid reasons in this case.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 18 03:11:58 Cam I'll repost what you did not understand. "If you want a serious debate, then I would argue that accountability is a premise for free speech and that being identifiable is a premise of accountability" "In sum, the principle of free speech does not apply as no identifiable individual or organization is invoking the right to free speech when using the application." "Now, in the case in question, it seems that some ISP providers may have blocked Dissenter. So directing the criticism at the minister from the new zealand first party may indeed be incorrect." ============= "Well, they're identifiable. So that's that argument gone." Any poster that is clearly identifiable would have the right to freedom of expression with all its responsibilities and limitations. Those that are not clearly identifiable do no. "And yet here you are, being perfectly satisfied with this unrelated site being banned" I am entirely happy with domestic legislation being enforced (through you have not in any way established that the Dissenter application has been banned), particularly when enforcement is meant to curb radicalism, instead of for protecting intellectual property (for example). "Considering the puppet bit was something quite separate to this" That was what you thought I back-stepped from? I categorically did not. Prediction does not equal control even if the prediction was correct. The crazy fellow's action caused the death of 50 people. You and he seem to feel it was worth it if a response was predicted in any way in any form in his manifest. Like I said. You should probably examine why you feel his travels to Europe resonate with you. Resonance may be indicative of a special brand of batshit crazy.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 18 03:19:30 I would love for you to find me a single example of someone using that Dissenter application posting under their full name and place of residence. It seems outlandishly improbable.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 18 05:34:33 "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gab_(social_network)" "19,526 unique usernames had posted content during a seven-day period between January 9 and January 16, 2019, far lower than Gab's claimed 850,000 registered users" "In late February 2019 Gab launched a browser extension and website called Dissenter, which allows users of Gab to comment on any URL, including news articles, YouTube videos, and individual social media posts" "The site is a favorite of far-right or alt-right users who have been banned or suspended from other services" "In addition to allowing Holocaust denial and other forms of anti-Semitism, Gab has been used as a recruitment tool by several neo-Nazi and alt-right groups, including Identity Evropa, Patriot Front, and the Atomwaffen Division, a terrorist organization tied to a number of murders"
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 18 09:47:39 Jergul why do you keep defending people that want to kill you? http://www...f305fdff8826191f06e5f8fd2601ab
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