Utopia Talk / Politics / Brexit Betrayed

shannon Member	Sat Mar 30 19:56:24 So this is what a sham democracy looks like. We have a vote, the largest turnout in history with a clear majority, and the Govt almost three years later refuses to carry it out. No matter which way you voted, this must be of great concern. We have an out of control Establisment who continue to delay and frustrate the People express instruction to Leave the European Union. https://youtu.be/iPcmebRH904 This isnt over by a long shot, we wont stop under we are once again an Independent United Kingdom.
shannon Member	Sat Mar 30 20:12:06 https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=iPcmebRH904 Above link tells yiu all you need to know about the treacherous scum in Parliament.
Average Ameriacn Member	Sat Mar 30 21:01:01 You should have followed our example and make a revolution not a treaty.
shannon Member	Sat Mar 30 21:39:12 We will have another General Election sooner or later. We will turf out the Remainer MPs and vite in a Leave Parliament. They will take us out of the EU on WTO or FTA terms.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Sun Mar 31 01:23:05 the Queen should seize back power and behead May
obaminated Member	Sun Mar 31 01:26:03 it is pretty amazing how little respect the british government has for the interest of the british people. must suck to live in a monarchy.
shannon Member	Sun Mar 31 02:09:32 Having seen the treasonous criminal scum made PM by MPs and the crooks, diots and perverts we vote into Parliament, no wonder the Queen stays out of politics. She must think we are collectively madmen and morons given the people we vote for. The Queen didnt put those people into power, why should she clean them out? Its our problem to fix.
Paramount Member	Sun Mar 31 03:23:00 I have not followed the brexit circus too much. All I have heard is that the parliament has voted on the deal three times now, and that they may vote a fourth time. They vote this many times because they want the parliament to accept the deal. Because it is of the interest of the people that they leave with a deal and not without a deal. It just takes some time for the parliament members to understand this. That is why they need to vote on the deal so many times.
Average Ameriacn Member	Sun Mar 31 03:39:10 That's what you all should do: WAVE THE BRITISH FLAG! Wave it 24/7! After the Brexit you can get back your guns that the EU took from you. Only then you will be FREE! http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-47758618 Eurostar passengers faced major disruption after a protester caused trains to and from St Pancras International to be suspended. British Transport Police (BTP) said a man had been in "a precarious position" near the station since Friday evening. Southeastern services heading towards St Pancras from Faversham and Margate were also affected. A man, 44, has been arrested for trespass and obstruction of the railway. BTP confirmed eyewitness reports the man was waving an English flag. It follows a day where thousands of people protested in central London over delays to Brexit. Power to the overhead lines was switched off, so trains could not enter or leave St Pancras. A National Rail statement said the protester spent the night on the railway viaduct that crosses the high-speed lines just outside the station. He has now been removed and overhead wires have been recharged to allow services to resume, it added.
shannon Member	Sun Mar 31 04:20:28 Paramount, what is in this ‘deal’? Do you know that the EU refer to Mays Deal as a new Treaty? It is 600 pages of insult and outrage. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/brexit-deal-threatens-national-security-ex-mi6-chief-warns/ar-BBS3MSY
Paramount Member	Sun Mar 31 04:56:20 ”Do you know that the EU refer to Mays Deal as a new Treaty?” Well of course. It is a treaty. An agreement. A contract. ”It is 600 pages of insult and outrage.” Lol. ”the prime minister's Brexit deal would surrender the UK's forces and intelligence services to EU control.” Lol.
Paramount Member	Sun Mar 31 04:59:41 Although, I have not read the agreement but even if that is true it would be funny as shit.
Seb Member	Sun Mar 31 05:11:35 The only reason Mays deal hasn't gone through is because the Brexiteers didn't back it. The leave campaign explicitly promised we would leave with a deal. You had your chance and you blew it. You fucked brexit up so badly that your choices are a deal that many Brexiteers see as "not brexit" (not a surprise, I predicted as such) and no deal, which would be a calamity and which leavers promised wouldn't happen. Don't accuse others of treachery to excuse your own gulability.
Seb Member	Sun Mar 31 05:16:57 Shannon: "They will take us out of the EU on WTO or FTA terms" What's your proposal for the NI border? Are you going to put a customs border between NI and the UK? Or break the GFA (no FTA with Europe then, nor the US while the Irish lobby in Congress is briefing against the UK on this issue). It's this kind of talk that means the DUP won't vote for brexit right now.
pillz Member	Sun Mar 31 08:55:16 Seb is so fucking stupid. Why would Brexiters back a shit deal that doesnt give them a thing they wanted? cry more and continue to blame everybody but your stupid eurofaggot loving self (and peers) for this.
jergul large member	Sun Mar 31 09:12:41 Pillz Only a hard exit will give them what they want. In addition to lots of things they do not want.
jergul large member	Sun Mar 31 09:15:05 I am interested in how the brexiteers are providing the NHS with 50 million pounds extra a week. That was a pretty clear promised benefit of brexit.
Seb Member	Sun Mar 31 09:29:20 Pillz: This is the hardest brexit deal that doesn't involve breaking the good Friday agreement, the only one that preserves free trade with the EU and the possibility of it with the US. It is the best deal that senior leave politicians could negotiate. And the reason it hasn't gone through, and why we are still in the EU, is because leave supporting politicians refused to vote for it. If you want to accuse people of betrayal, accuse them. The leave campaign specifically rejected a no deal brexit, so there's no basis for saying failure to leave without a deal is treachery. Indeed, having given that written assurance to the country that we world not leave without a deal, to try and force a no deal brexit against Parliament and without a second referendum would be a better example of betrayal.
Rugian Member	Sun Mar 31 09:31:15 I'm trying to figure out what it would take to get Brexit to the finish line. So far I've got: -Proroguing Parliament to prevent another extension request -General elections which are held following the passage of legislation banning trade unions from engaging in political activity -A full-scale military invasion of the Republic of Ireland which results in its annexation -Arranging a false flag op which involves Poles, machine guns and Borough Market -Getting Parliament to respect the will of the people (lol)
CrownRoyal Member	Sun Mar 31 09:45:18 "Getting Parliament to respect the will of the people (lol)" Is this always problematic for you, or only in UK case? I see on the news, for example, how Florida GOP is preparing to shit all over the will of the people who had a referendum on restoring felons voting rights.
CrownRoyal Member	Sun Mar 31 09:47:46 You can vote, sure. But you have to pay now. Maybe there is a similar solution for brexiters, you know, respecting the will of the people. You can Leave, but pay up first http://edi...ttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
Pillz Member	Sun Mar 31 09:48:53 Florida is worse than Isis!!!
CrownRoyal Member	Sun Mar 31 09:50:32 Florida is your mom
CrownRoyal Member	Sun Mar 31 09:55:50 Similar stuff in michigan where people voted to legalize pot, while state GOP tries to shit on results a bit. Or in Maine, where there was a referendum for Medicaid expansion, iirc, but republicans just said fuck it
CrownRoyal Member	Sun Mar 31 09:57:48 http://www...c4k6PJImv&ust=1554130617322084
CrownRoyal Member	Sun Mar 31 09:59:10 Ok, I'm done derailing the UK thread, carry on please, I will go swim now
shannon Member	Sun Mar 31 10:04:48 The ‘deal’ is a very abused word. What we have been presented with is a new Treaty! https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-political/files/draft_withdrawal_agreement_0.pdf Thats is the text of the new Treaty in full. I defy any of you to actually read it. Seb pretends this is something Leave promised! Its beyond absurd to think this is Leaving the EU. It is Rejoin under worse terms with no Article 50 escape clause. The reason we are still in the EU is that Mrs May took it upon herself to change legal Exit Date with no reference to Parliament. She just sent a letter to the EU Commission, quite unconstitutional and unprecedented! Parliament did not pass any law or even a Statutory Instrument! The actions of a despot who had promised in Parliament 108 times that we were Leaving the EU on 29th March 2019. The UK is in real crisis now as the EUphiles are opening breaking the law in keeping us in the EU.
shannon Member	Sun Mar 31 10:09:34 The border arrangements with RoI are a Remainer Project Fear canard. There is no issue other than using the GFA a political lever by the EU. Trade will continue with RoI without any problem.
shannon Member	Sun Mar 31 10:13:14 Ah, jergulmaths maths at work again. It was 350m a week sent to the EU, not 50m! And the Govt has increased funding to the NHS by more than that anyway. https://www.gov.uk/government/news/prime-minister-sets-out-5-year-nhs-funding-plan
shannon Member	Sun Mar 31 10:19:20 Rugian, one way or another we will Leave, the People demand it. It may be the Govt tries to delay as long as possible and it could well be we have to wait until the next GE in 2022 before we can remove the Remainer MPs. Until then it’s possible we get stitched up in the execrable Withdrawal Agreement or similar. We would then have to abrogate the Treaty to be free from the EU. There are many other possible outcomes, who knows, I certainly dont. Maybe we leave on 12th April, or 22nd May.
Seb Member	Sun Mar 31 10:21:14 Shannon: Yes. International relationships involve treaties. What were you expecting? Yes, it's inferior to remaining (and it's certainly not remain: we lose a chunk of benefits, including passporting rights for services, and get no representation). I've told you that all along. You are incorrect regarding the exit date. The day was amended by a statutory instrument. The power to create such an instrument was delegated to the crown by the passage of the withdrawal act, and the SI itself went through parliament and could have been blocked by it. You really need to stop this hysterical nonsense and reconcile yourself to the fact you are pursuing a brexit far more extreme than the referendum promised, in fact one that the leave campaign campaigned against. Your choices are Mays deal to get us out and work from there, something softer that you'll also hate, or revoke and this time actually work out a plan for achieving it. Or another referendum, which you will lose.
Seb Member	Sun Mar 31 10:56:48 Rugian: Simple. Binding referendum passed by parliament on implementing an exit agreement and political declaration; Vs Remaining. If we leave, we leave. If we remain, its not the will of the people.
shannon Member	Sun Mar 31 12:37:27 Really Seb, what date was May’s letter to the EU Commission? And what date did Parliament pass the SI changing the Exit date? The Leave campaign did not promise the Withdrawal Agreement. They had zero to di with it. You know that right? Yes the Withdrawal Agreement is worse than Remain! Yet yiu think that’s a choice Brexiteers should vote for. Yiu make nonsense at all. We don’t need a new Treaty to Leave the EU. We just Leave! The EU Withdrawal Act 2018 repeals ALL the Acts under which the EU has jurisdiction over the UK, MOST IMPORTANTLY the European Communities Act 1972. Thats it. Done. What the Withdrawal Agreement (Treaty) dies is take us back into the EU. The lying UK givt says it is Brexit! Absurd and patently untrue.
shannon Member	Sun Mar 31 12:42:09 Lol you want a referendum on Remain or Remain minus? You really are a crazy EUphile treasonous scumbag Seb. This is democracy EU style. The EU establishment and its Globalist supporters and useful idiots have always been a disgrace and a threat not just to national sovereignty but also personal freedom and democracy.
Paramount Member	Sun Mar 31 12:46:28 ”Yes the Withdrawal Agreement is worse than Remain!” So you agree that it would be better if Britain remained?
Rugian Member	Sun Mar 31 12:50:07 Seb, You already made your choice. If there is to be a referendum on the current proposal, a "No" vote should result in a hard Brexit.
shannon Member	Sun Mar 31 13:17:21 Paramount, neither is acceptable obviously. Only implementation of the Referendum result is. The Parliament has passed the necessary law to do so. The PM is now delaying the exit date. We should have left the EU on 29th March 2019.
Average Ameriacn Member	Sun Mar 31 13:22:06 You should build a wall around the UK. Trump could show you how to do it. You just have to treat him more nicely than before.
Rugian Member	Sun Mar 31 13:29:53 CR, I have seen headlines regarding the Florida story. The two takeaways I got from them were that 1) the GOP are scum for ignoring the voting results, but also 2) the GOP isn't actually ignoring the results, it's just adding requirements in order to be re-enfranchised. A better analogy would be if the people had voted to restore felons' ballot rights, but the Florida legislature and governor spent the next three years doing jack shit to implement it while simultaneously going on a massive marketing blitz to say that it's a terrible idea, then coming back to the voters and saying "hey we still have no idea how to execute your will because we've completely screwed the pooch here, how about we have another vote to see if you've changed your mind." It's completely ridiculous.
CrownRoyal Member	Sun Mar 31 14:51:22 "A better analogy would be if the people had voted to restore felons' ballot rights, but the Florida legislature and governor spent the next three years doing jack shit to implement it while simultaneously going on a massive marketing blitz to say that it's a terrible idea...." This is not a better analogy at all, because there is no other guy in florida. There no European Union, with two dozens of other countries, who care for their own interest, and who must be somehow accommodated. In florida, if Republicans want to respect the will of the voters, they ain't gotta do additional jack shit. Just scrap the ban on felons vote and boom! Done. *I am being charitable here, not mentioning that GOP is doing this because they are afraid that more people will vote for the other party, not for any other complex issues like northern Ireland or something.
Seb Member	Sun Mar 31 15:28:57 Shannon: The timing would only be an issue if parliament decided not to support her on this. However parliament has several times rejected no deal and the vote for her deal was rejected on her clear statement that rejection would mean an extension. There's simply no mandate for leaving with no deal. Not in parliament, not in the referendum. If you want a no deal brexit, you must have another referendum. Here is what the leave campaign said about no deal: "Taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop - we will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave". http://www...iEehewcWUI&cshid=1554061733576 I think at this point we should just revoke. Brexit has completely failed in terms of achieving the outcomes that were the supposed point of leaving. All we have left is Muppets like you foaming at the mouth willing to take any amount of dammage to the country, to leave us powerless and at the mercy of the good will of others - and all you can really articulate is that any relation with the EU is bad, that any means to achieve this status of no relationship is worth it, and that anything that stands in the way of that - even our constitutional framework - is an obstacle to this. That's totalitarian lunacy. But I'm willing to say, in the interests of compromise, fine: you think you have a mandate, let's put it back to the people. If it is the will of the people, you'll win. You only object to this because you know perfectly well you've failed completely, and you know very well now the public will not support your mad project now they realise all the trade offs that you told them were lies are real. Yes, this is a democracy. That means we vote.
Seb Member	Sun Mar 31 16:11:40 https://www.cer.eu/insights/cost-brexit-december-2018-towards-relative-decline Brexit has cost us the equivalent of a whole years growth and we haven't even left yet.
Rugian Member	Sun Mar 31 16:17:22 Seb, Welcome to the growing pains of independence. "During the Revolutionary War and in its aftermath, the U.S. economy contracted by Depression-level amounts. From 1774 up to about 1790, on their analysis, the U.S economy may have declined by "28% or even higher in per capita terms." They offer several plausible reasons for this decline: the destruction caused by the War itself; the sharp decline in exports caused by the Revolutionary War, including the loss of more than half of all pre-war trade with England by 1791; and the departure of skilled and well-connected loyalists. Urbanization is typically a sign of economic development, but during this time period, the U.S. economy was de-urbanizing. They write: To identify the extent of the urban damage, one could start by noting that the combined share of Boston, New York City, Philadelphia, and Charleston in a growing national population shrank from 5.1% in 1774 to 2.7% in 1790, recovering only partially to 3.4% in 1800. There is even stronger evidence confirming an urban crisis. The share of white-collar employment was 12.7% in 1774, but it fell to 8% in 1800; the ratio of earnings per free worker in urban jobs relative to that of total free workers dropped from 3.4 to 1.5 ..." These economic losses seem to me an often-neglected part of the usual historical narrative of America's War for Independence. Those fighting for independence were sticking to their cause, even as the typical standard of living plummeted. The American South was the region that suffered by far the most from the Revolutionary War. On their estimate, the New England region suffered only a modest loss in per capita GDP of -.08% per year from 1774 to 1800, and then grew at a robust annual rate of 2.1% from 1800 to 1840. The Middle Atlantic region suffered a larger annual decline in per capita GDP of 0.45% from 1774 to 1800, but bounced back with an annual growth rate in per capita GDP of 1.45% from 1800 to 1840. However, the Southern region experienced a near-catastrophic drop of 1.57% per year in per capita GDP over the quarter-century from 1774-1800, and rebounded to a growth rate of just 0.43% from 1800 to 1840. On their numbers, the South is has by far the highest incomes of the three regions in 1774, and by far the lowest per capita GDP of the three regions by 1840. Indeed, on their estimated, real per capita GDP in the South in 1840 was about 20% below its level in 1774! This absolute and relative decline of the South has been used as an example of how institutions can shape long-run economic development. The basic argument is that when the New World was settled, certain areas seemed well suited mining and plantation agriculture. Those areas ended up with what Daron Acemoglu, Simon Johnson, James A. Robinson in a 2002 article referred to as "extractive institutions, which concentrate power in the hands of a small elite and create a high risk of expropriation for the majority of the population, are likely to discourage investment and economic development. Extractive institutions, despite their adverse effects on aggregate performance, may emerge as equilibrium institutions because they increase the rents captured by the groups that hold political power." The alternative is areas where extractive economics won't work, and these areas instead receive a "cluster of institutions ensuring secure property rights for a broad cross section of society, which we refer to as institutions of private property, are essential for investment incentives and successful economic performance." In their 2002 article in the Quarterly Journal of Economics, the authors apply this dynamic broadly across the settlement of the New World, and they title the article: "Reversal of Fortune: Geography and Institutions in the Making of the Modern World Income Distribution." For a nice readable article laying out a similar theory, see "Factor Endowments, and Paths of Development in the New World," by Kenneth L. Sokoloff and Stanley L. Engerman, in the Summer 2000 issue of my own Journal of Economic Perspectives. (The JEP is publicly available, including the most recent issue and archives going back more than a decade, courtesy of the American Economic Association.) I can't claim any expertise on the interaction of economic conditions and public mood in the years leading up the U.S. Civil War. But it does seem to me that seeing the U.S. South as a region where per capita GDP had for decades been struggling to recover from an enormous decline, while in relative terms falling ever farther behind other regions of the country, helps to deepen my understanding of the South's sense of separateness which fed into a willingness to secede. Without the economic damage from the Revolutionary War, the U.S. economy might have started its period of more rapid economic growth several decades sooner--and perhaps been the first nation in the world to do so. Economic historians do love considering counterfactual possibilities, and this one strikes me as a good provocative one. Lindert and Williamson write: "It seems clear that America joined Kuznets’s modern economic growth club sometime after 1790, with the North leading the way, while the South underwent a stunning reversal of fortune. And without the 1774-1790 economic disaster, it appears that America might well have recorded a modern economic growth performance even earlier, perhaps the first on the planet to do so."" http://con...-and-depression-economics.html
shannon Member	Sun Mar 31 16:41:37 Long winded rambling there Seb, but you didnt give the dates...go on have another go. No mandate? Are you fucking crazy? Look at the opening post vid again. No deal better than a bad deal was in their too of course. People were not asked about a ‘deal’, (A new Remain Treaty but worse). It was Leave or Remain. Cameron already had already tried to renegotiate with the EU and brought back nothing for his efforts. There was more than one official Leave group Seb. They didnt always agree with each other. That one was organised by the Conservatives mostly. Ive never seen that particular pamphlett and it was not official Govt policy anyway! Parliament has betrayed the Referendum because it was a result they didnt like. https://youtu.be/Xcb4_QwP6fE Again I refer you to the first vid. This was a once only vote. It was the People’s choice to Leave. Seb referencing EU propaganda. It wont work, they are liars and thieves. leave won and getting on three years later the Govt refuses to implement the result. This is unprecedented in British history. It has shaken people trust not only in government but the democratic process altogether. The damage done to public harmony by Remainers is beyond all reason. We are still beholden to a foreign power who with malevolence is demanding now not only political power but vast repatriations abd dismembering of the United Kingdom. Traitorous scum such as yourself stand with the EU against the British People.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 01:26:37 Rugian: We are independent. The first thing the independent States did was club with their neighbours. Next.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 01:44:01 Shannon: The dates are irrelevant. You can get the SI changed after the letter has been issued. Parliament endorsed it. End of. Yeah, no mandate. The Leave campaign is based entirely around the idea of obtaining a deal and eschewing no deal. May lost an election on her platform of hard Brexit and no deal is better than a bad deal. You have no mandate. "It was leave or remain" Indeed. And you have a leave option on the table, and the only reason it hasn't gone through is because Brexiteers don't like it. You can't face both ways and scream that you are being betrayed because while it meets the mandate of the referendum question it's not the specific kind of mad leave you want; while at the same time trying to argue that the specific rejection of that option by the leave campaign should be ignored because it's not ruled out by the referendum question. That's hypocritical bilge. Face it Shannon, you aren't being betrayed, you just have no mandate and insufficient public support for this. There was only *one* official leave group. The other was just a campaign group. In any case both have now been criminally convicted, and the courts have ruled that they would quash the result on that basis. So honestly you can go stuff the referendum anyway. That's the damage done to harmony: your false promises, your inability to compromise, your corruption of the democratic process, your criminal corruption of the democratic process. You can't even hold a fucking protest without arrests for assault, threats of violence. Hell, you fuckers even murdered an MP. If you want to keep palling around with these sinister clowns that's your choice, but it seems the way to restore harmony is to start jailing people for these crimes.
shannon Member	Mon Apr 01 02:15:19 And still hiding from tne dates the letter was sent, which was before tbe SI had passed Parliament! On what authority or legitimacy was the Exit Date changed? None is the answer. May committed a very serious error, regardless of whether or not the SI later was passed. The Govt indeed claims that the letter alone was enough to change the Exit Date in international law! This is the actions of a despot. There is no precedent for this in British history. https://briefingsforbrexit.com/the-postponement-of-brexit-is-it-legal/ “The actions of HMG, through the Permanent Representative, cannot bind either Parliament or the UK generally on the international law plane so that any purported extension of the Article 50 period would not be valid.“ Rt Hon Sir Richard Aikens, is a former member of the Court of Appeal, and former Vice-President of the Consultative Council of European Judges.
shannon Member	Mon Apr 01 02:21:33 “The Leave campaign is based entirely around the idea of obtaining a deal and eschewing no deal.” Fucking liar. Nothing else to say. The absurdity of thinking one point in a 16 page pamplett from one of the two official and many unofficial Leave groups is tbe central point of Brexit is astounding. Again, not even govt policy! Which you may recall was Remain! NO DEAL IS BETTER THAN A BAD DEAL! https://youtu.be/yhol2_3ilmM
shannon Member	Mon Apr 01 02:38:15 And we see you anti democratic nature emerge. The Referendum itself should be quashed! 17.4m voters, the clear majority, should be ignored along with the greatest democratic exercise in British history. The Law is we Leave the EU. Nothing is legislated regarding the need or a ‘deal’. The EU Withdrawal Act 2018 has been given Royal Assent by tbe Queen. This is at the heart if the issue: who governs us. Not about competing economic forecasts. Sovereignty and democracy. You Seb have declared yourself an enemy of British People. You continue to agitate both against the legitimate outcome of the Referendum and also the stated law of the land. All you have is lies Seb and a miserable, treasonous soul. There should indeed be recriminations. A Royal Commission into MPs who are agents of a foreign power, the EU. Exile would be too good for traitors.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 02:39:27 Shannon: I'm not hiding the dates you pillock. As I've repeatedly said, it doesn't matter the letter went before the SI. Indeed because in UK law Treaty has precedence over domestic legislation that's the only way to do it. Parliament repeatedly voted against no deal. The Govt said that rejection of the MV would mean an extension. The idea that somehow the fact May wrote before the SI is illegal is just the dribbles of people that don't understand politics, the constitution, or the law. Further, the SI itself was approved by parliament. Extension under A50 is an implied executive power as it arises under a ratified treaty. It isn't binding parliament. It's explicitly authorised. The issue in the Gina Miller case was that leaving the EU changed UK citizens rights which explicitly requires parliamentary approval. But knock yourself out- if you think it's the illegal, go get a JR. Leave published a manifesto. It's in there. The only one lying here is you. You said Cameron was claiming WW3 when he pointed out the centrality of the EU to the Irish peace process. I said Ireland and Spain would use the weight of the EU to pursue their claims on NI and Gibraltar. You laughed. And now it's happening. And you act like it's a surprise, rather than your stupid policy of disempowering the UK. You are dangerous, dishonest and dim Shannon, and your overheated rhetoric falsely accusing everyone else of betraying you when you don't have a mandate, and don't have a clue, has already contributed to at least one death and will likely contribute more. You are acting more and more like a hate preacher.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 02:41:52 And if the leave campaign said one thing on their printed manifesto and another on their videos, that's just another example of a campaign mired in criminal activity lying through its teeth. Foolish you for listening to them, and more the fool for continuing to.
shannon Member	Mon Apr 01 04:00:16 Sir Richard has spelt out very clearly the case of the illegality of May changing the Exit Date. You are simply too indoctrinated to admit it. To say he doesn’t understand the law is new depths of your truth allergy. What death are you gobshiting about? To use a mentally ill man for your political points scoring benefit is contemptous, and just underlines the desperation of your position against an Independent UK. The Govt acted without Authority and changed the Exit Date, in collusion with a foreign power. Treasonous and in express violation of the law. The SI must get through Parliament first you fucktard. Otherwise on what authority is the Govt acting on? Parliament has not voted aganst ‘no deal’. Show the Law that prohibits it! What Parliament has enacted is the EU Withdrawal Act 2018. That is the law, and it does not have any Remain Deal in it. Caneron said: "Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking? "I would never be so rash to make that assumption." Sounds like Brexit is a threat to peace in Europe! You said we would HAVE to give up Gibraltar! Complete Nonsense of course, but given your impulse to side with an agressive foreign power, we see how your mind works Seb. You are once again exposed as a traitorous POS.
shannon Member	Mon Apr 01 04:05:42 Sir Richard has spelt out very clearly the case of the illegality of May changing the Exit Date. You are simply too indoctrinated to admit it. To say he doesn’t understand the law is new depths of your truth allergy. What death are you gobshiting about? To use a mentally ill man for your political points scoring benefit is contemptous, and just underlines the desperation of your position against an Independent UK. The Govt acted without Authority and changed the Exit Date, in collusion with a foreign power. Treasonous and in express violation of the law. The SI must get through Parliament first you fucktard. Otherwise on what authority is the Govt acting on? Parliament has not voted aganst ‘no deal’. Show the Law that prohibits it! What Parliament has enacted is the EU Withdrawal Act 2018. That is the law, and it does not have any Remain Deal in it. Caneron said: "Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking? "I would never be so rash to make that assumption." Sounds like Brexit is a threat to peace in Europe! You said we would HAVE to give up Gibraltar! Complete Nonsense of course, but given your impulse to side with an agressive foreign power, we see how your mind works Seb. You are once again exposed as a traitorous POS.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 04:12:08 Shannon: He's wrong. But if he's right, he'll win a JR. But if we are talking legality, you are accusing people of treachery for implementing the letter of a referendum that was so criminally conducted by both leave campaigns that the courts have said it should be quashed. You and your swivel eyed fanatics have a remarkably flexible approach to the law. The mentally ill man was screaming about traitors. You lot with your ridiculous overblown nonsense are encouraging these people to kill, whether you intend it or not. "Sounds like Brexit is a threat to peace in Europe!" Northern Ireland is in Europe you tit. "You said we would HAVE to give up Gibraltar! " No you liar. I said Spain would demand it and we would have to make concessions to avoid it. Ditto for NI. The posts are still here. Go find a link to the post. Lies, overheated rhetoric that encourages violence, and idiocy. That's all we have ever had from you lot. Face the facts, you had your chance, you've cocked it up, and the adults have had to step in and fix the mess you made on the kitchen floor.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 05:24:46 Shannon: Just spotted you argued it's anti democratic to other a vote quashed when one side is demonstrated to have cheated. This is your version of democracy: vote rigging is fine. Duck off.
shannon Member	Mon Apr 01 05:34:18 The courts have said what Seb? Lets see a link to what you are gibbering about. The Electoral Commission was shamelessly stacked 100% with declared Remainers and some minor infraction of finance resulted in a small fine. Thats the best you have for invalidating the votes if 17.4m people? Laughably Pathetic. Why hasn’t the Govt or the Opposition said anything about it? Because its in the fevered imagination of the EU traitor scum such as yourself. Why do we need to make concessions? We dont. Its just oart of your trreaonous mindset to agree with the demands of a foreign power. Gutless little pant wetter that yiu are. Tbe Remainer Parliament and Government have been in control of everything! More transparent dishonesty, as always from you. The Remainer strategy has been to make such a mess of things then point to Brexit itself as the problem. NI is on the Continent? Cameron said the continent Seb, not Europe. Why must you tell stupid such lies?
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 06:22:22 Lol. The Electoral commission is stuffed with remainers, which is why they had to be judicial reviewed over clearing Vote Leave, and their illegal advice on campaign funding to the leave campaign, and were also found guilty by the courts. This is your idiotic argument about everything: just lie and accuse others of bad faith. Your argument we don't need to make concessions is just an outright admission that you have put us in a position where to trade with Europe we will need make concessions on Ireland, or not be able to trade freely. Which is precisely what I said would happen. While you fuckwits were going on about how we could have our cake and eat it, the reality is you've put the UK prostrate on the dining table. Either they'll get our jobs and industries, or they'll get NI. Ditto for Gibraltar. The negotiations have been conducted by leave ministers, with a PM elected on a platform of the hardest brexit possible, with no consultation with the country or parliament: just a vote of approval for whatever deal they came up with. And the vote in the end wasn't killed by remainers, it was killed by Brexiteers wanting an ever harder brexit. You failed. Utterly. Humiliatingly. Pathetically. Grow up and take some responsibility rather than this ridiculous accusation of treason. https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/pm-speech-on-the-uks-strength-and-security-in-the-eu-9-may-2016 "So we have always seen the European Union as a means to an end – the way to boost our prosperity and help anchor peace and stability across the European continent – but we don’t see it as an end in itself." Yes, NI is part of the continent of Europe. More lies as stupidity from you.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 07:14:04 Why should we listen to idiots that don't know that Norther Ireland is in Europe.
shannon Member	Mon Apr 01 08:53:25 Northern Ireland is on the Continent? Holy fuck Seb is actually nuts. We have a Leave PM? Crazy talk. May campaigned for Remain. She delayed Brexit for no reason on 29th March and with no authority. The majority in Cabinet and indeed the Parliament all campaigned for Remain. Why does the UK need to make territorial concessions to trade with the EU? What other country has this demand made of it? None if course. There have been no negotiations, we are worse off! It is simply a new Treaty tying the UK back into the EU on worse terms. You’ve already admitted it is worse than Remain! The rejection of ‘Mays Deal’ aka the Rejoin EU Treaty, was a great victory against the traitors in Parliament Three times Rejoin was wrecked. The Leave campaign overspent by 77k quid in a clear stitch up over declarations. Nothing more. You would invalidate 17.4 million votes over that! Treasonous scum is exactly what you are. In your black heart you have put a foreign power above the UK. The British People will get Brexit. We will Leave the EU sooner or later. Likely over the dead carcass of both the Labour and Conservative parties.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 09:48:39 Shannon: He said "across the continent of Europe". So you believe that the British Isles are not part of the European continent?
Pillz Member	Mon Apr 01 10:26:51 Exactly. The continent of Europe should refer only to the contiguous land mass above sea level (and territorial islands of contained states). British isles don't qualify except in a geological sense and in your globalist wet dreams.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 11:19:20 So, the British Isles, in your view, aren't part of the continent of Europe. Despite being on the European continental shelf. Brexiteers so nutty now they are arguing the UK isn't geographically in Europe.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 11:20:35 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Europe
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 11:21:20 Pillz thinks Malta and Cyprus are not in Europe.
pillz Member	Mon Apr 01 12:04:21 seb is this stupid, everyone
Rugian Member	Mon Apr 01 12:05:25 "Despite being on the European continental shelf." Isn't Asia on that same shelf as well?
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 12:09:23 Rugian: The Asian part of the Eurasian continental shelf perhaps. Which part of the Eurasian continental shelf do you think the British Isles are on?
pillz Member	Mon Apr 01 12:09:43 2) the mainland, as distinguished from islands or peninsulas. 3) the Continent, the mainland of Europe, as distinguished from the British Isles. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/continents Seb is so fucking stupid it boggles the mind
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 12:33:05 Pillz: Geographically, Europe is always defined as including the British isles. Occasionally a distinction is drawn colloquially between continental Europe Vs the British Isles. That was not the form of words Cameron used. But do keep in trying to claim the British Isles aren't part of the continent of Europe. It reminds everyone how stupid you and Shannon are.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 12:33:25 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Europe
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 12:38:01 Pillz thinks Japan isn't in Asia.
pillz Member	Mon Apr 01 13:03:21 seb can not differentiate asia from europe.
murder Member	Mon Apr 01 14:27:41 When are the results due?
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 15:11:15 Murder: About an hour. Far too many people still refusing to compromise - Independent Group and Lib Dems still refusing to back Common Market 2.0, Labour no supporting the No-to-No-Deal option.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 15:11:50 I think there is a good chance that Common Market 2.0 or CU will win an outright majority along with the referendum option.
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 15:12:12 By no means certain though.
murder Member	Mon Apr 01 16:03:45 Results expected in ~ 5 minutes.
murder Member	Mon Apr 01 16:08:37 Customs union - Defeated by 276 to 273
murder Member	Mon Apr 01 16:08:59 All Brexit options defeated
murder Member	Mon Apr 01 16:09:29 'Common Market 2.0' - Defeated by 282 to 261
murder Member	Mon Apr 01 16:12:04 Confirmatory public vote - Defeated by 292 to 280
murder Member	Mon Apr 01 16:12:47 Parliamentary supremacy - Defeated by 292 to 191
Seb Member	Mon Apr 01 17:27:57 Sigh. Parties still refusing to compromise. Next one on weds needs to be under STV. Parliament trying to do badly what govt failed to do over three years.
murder Member	Mon Apr 01 18:04:20 STV?
Rugian Member	Mon Apr 01 20:53:11 "Star Trek: Voyager is an American science fiction television series created by Rick Berman, Michael Piller, and Jeri Taylor. It originally aired between January 16, 1995 and May 23, 2001 on UPN, lasting for 172 episodes over seven seasons. The fifth series in the Star Trek franchise, it served as the fourth sequel to Star Trek: The Original Series. Set in the 24th century, when Earth is part of a United Federation of Planets, it follows the adventures of the Starfleet vessel USS Voyager, as it attempts to return home after being stranded in the Delta Quadrant on the far side of the Milky Way galaxy. Paramount Pictures commissioned the series following the termination of Star Trek: The Next Generation to accompany their ongoing Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. They wanted it to help launch their new network, UPN. Berman, Piller, and Taylor devised the series to chronologically overlap with Deep Space Nine and to continue themes—namely the complex relationship between Starfleet and ex-Federation colonists known as the Maquis—which had been introduced in The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine. Voyager was the first Star Trek series to include CGI technology for space scenes and the first to feature a female captain, Kathryn Janeway (Kate Mulgrew), as the lead character. Berman served as head executive producer in charge of the overall production, assisted by a series of executive producers: Piller, Taylor, Brannon Braga, and Kenneth Biller. Being set in a different part of the galaxy to preceding Star Trek shows, Voyager gave the series' writers space to introduce new alien species as recurring characters, namely the Kazon, Vidiians, Hirogen, and Species 8472. During the later seasons, the Borg—a species created for The Next Generation—were introduced as the main antagonists. During Voyager's run, various episode novelisations and tie-in video games were produced; after the show ended, various novels continued the crew's adventures." ---- Or maybe he was talking about Single Transferable Voting, I dunno.
jergul large member	Tue Apr 02 01:12:24 Mon Apr 01 17:27:57 Sigh. Parties still refusing to compromise. ============ Datestamp! What a great april fools! Wait...you cannot possibly be serious?
Seb Member	Tue Apr 02 05:07:05 Jergul: Apparently Boles got enough Tory support for Common Market 2.0 he could win, May freaked out and orchestrated a covert whipping operation to kill it, having promised a free vote. Allegedly she thinks soft brexit will lead to Scottish independence because they get gauranteed access to the UK market via the EU. Good she's awful. Meanwhile peoples vote and soft brexit refused to vote for eachother.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Apr 02 09:20:40 http://twitter.com/RudyHavenstein/status/735204280081096705
shannon Member	Wed Apr 03 04:59:56 Thats it Swordfish, we will all die if Brexit ever happens. Remainers know this as a fact! Seb, its quite pathetic and absurd to think that when Cameron said peace on the continent he was referring to Northern Ireland. Pillz, not only is Seb actually this stupid, he can never learn from his mistakes. Seb proving as always a contrary indicator. Thinks ugood chance of clear majority on a Customs Union. Result: motion fails. May has now abandoned her cabinet and party and is directly begging Corbyn to support her Surrender Treaty! The damage done to the Tories is perhaps terminal now. But dont expect Labour to pick up any votes either. They have also trashed their manifesto by backing freedom of movement! Perhaps the greatest reason for the 62% of labour constituencies voting Leave in tbe Referendum was to end unfettered EU migration. A UKIP balance of power in Parliament after the next GE is the limp wristed SJWs worst nightmare, other than a UKIP govt.
Seb Member	Wed Apr 03 05:38:16 Shannon: Why is it pathetic to think that a British PM would be referencing a British province that had been in a 30 year long civil war that ended through a peace treaty only possible by the framework created by EU structures, and which could not be maintained outside of it? What is pathetic is that this issue was raised before and during the referrendum, has now thoroughly derailed brexit and your only argument is to wish it away. Good chance isn't a certainty. Clarke's motion fell by 3 votes, which is very close. And you've been saying we will be out of the EU by the 29th and here we are. Here's the simple fact: the majority Leave won was incredibly narrow, in a vote marred by electoral fraud sufficient to annul a binding vote. Onto that vote you continue to project a particularly extreme form which wasn't on the ballot paper. And while many people would have gone along with a form of brexit that commanded a majority, instead of reaching out and either building a consensus for your brexit, or at least a brexit you could support, you and your fellow travelers decided instead to go on a purge such that you've fractured the narrow leave majority, many of whom do not support leaving on the terms you suggest. On the back of that you are dismissing half the country as traitors for not going along with your policy, for which you have no mandate. That's why you can get a crowd that fills parliament square all the way up to park lane turn out for a second vote (without a single violent incident) yet can't even fill parliament Square without attracting such violent and distatesful individuals that half the leave supporters quit the protest to avoid association. Your majority for a hard leave is imaginary, and your rhetoric and behaviour of many like you redolent of the worst kinds of totalitarians.
Seb Member	Wed Apr 03 05:48:57 As for party politics, the Tories are destroyed, because they pandered to lunatics like yourself. They'll take a generation to recover. Labour, were it not led by Corbyns crowd, would win a landslide. In the present - brexit unresolved - circumstances the next election will be hung. But I think the balance is likely to favour Corbyn. The Blukip faction has reached the point where it cannot tolerate compromise with soft Brexiteers. Whereas soft Brexiteers and remainers can compromise. And soft Brexiteers blame blukipers for botching brexit. Blukipers are on their own. You can only control balance of power if you can compromise, and that's the one thing you lot won't do.
Daemon Member	Wed Apr 03 05:53:49 Got a mail from Google for their payment service: "evolves"^^ [...] As the UK's relationship with the EU evolves, we're making changes to the Google Payments Terms of Service so that your services continue to run smoothly. Nothing about your experience using Google services will change. Starting 4 April 2019, these services will be offered by Google Ireland Limited instead of Google Payment Limited. [...]
shannon Member	Wed Apr 03 06:35:06 Good god the base thickness of Seb is unrelenting. Cameron was referencing the continent! You have interpreted, absurdly, as this meanIng Northern Ireland! And not the actual, you know, Continent, which everyone understands to mean mainland Europe, not the British Isles. 29th March 2019 was the Exit Date in the EU Withdrawal Act 2018. It was passed by a majority in both HoC and HoL and given Royal Assent on 26th June 2018. I didnt pull that date out of my arse you halfwit, it was the fucking law. Since then May has apparently changed that date by a letter sent to the EU Commission with no authority or approval from Parliament. She says it changes the Exit Date even without approval from Parliament! UKIP is of course the only party that is committed to deliver Brexit, which was the express instruction from 17.4m people. The referendum itself was due entirely to UKIP to begin with. That 17.4m figure is higher now given the shameful and ludicrous anti democratic shenanigans going on between the PM and the EU. The London Remainer march was claimed to be 1,000,000 people in reality only 250,000. The absurd claim that the Leave march was violent is consistent with your constant lies. The British People will win Independence Seb, and you EUphile losers will forever be stained by the mark of Treason.
shannon Member	Wed Apr 03 06:37:46 https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=iPcmebRH904 This was what the Referendum was about. Not some half in half out BS. Again you lie, lie, lie. Leave means Leave.
Seb Member	Wed Apr 03 08:02:56 Shannon: Well, there's non so bind as those that won't see. It was obvious the law could be changed, and obvious from about two weeks before it would be changed, and quite likely it would be changed from the first MV defeat. If you couldn't see that was likely to happen I'm not really sure what to say. "She says it changes the Exit Date even without approval from Parliament!" I've pointed out this is factually incorrect. But lets see what the courts say. "UKIP is of course the only party that is committed to deliver Brexit" Labour and Conservatives are both committed to brexit. You've just defined brexit so narrowly as to exclude every form of departure and final relationship other than on WTO basis. But you still like to pretend you have a majority, despite all the call leave campaign material expressing a range of options. "reality only 250,000" Based on what, exactly? You are doing what you are accusing the march organisers of, picking numbers out of thin air. Whatever the actual number, it was easily a hundred times larger than the meagre leave effort, yet had non of the violence. There's footage of thugs assaulting press. To deny this is absurd. And then there's the violent imagery - wondering around with nooses etc. You are behaving like a violent coup. More of you will end up in jail.
Seb Member	Wed Apr 03 08:03:49 "This was what the Referendum was about. Not some half in half out BS. Again you lie, lie, lie. " This is an admission then that the official leave campaigns materials were lies then!
Seb Member	Wed Apr 03 13:53:38 The Brexiteers have paved the way for Corbyn thanks to their utter inflexibility and refusal to compromise. It's quite breathtaking how stupid they are.
murder Member	Fri Apr 05 08:53:28 The UK has asked the EU to delay Brexit until June 30th. With no plan in place, I can't imagine why the EU would agree to this. At some point you have to shit or get off the pot.
jergul large member	Fri Apr 05 09:03:23 Murder The best option would just give the UK a one year extention on the terms May outlined. I am pretty sure May suspects they might (she wrote the UK would prepare to take part in the May elections if the exention to june 30th is given).
Rugian Member	Fri Apr 05 09:29:52 I have to say, politics aside, minority government is a fun government to watch. Brexit has completely broken the Commons lol.
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