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Utopia Talk / Politics / Game of Thrones:Seris finale
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Sun May 19 20:05:46
In the aftermath of the devastating attack on King's Landing, Daenerys must face the survivors. Trying to explain that the people of Kings Landing were pieces of shit that deserved to burn. Tyrion attempts to institute democracy, in 80 mins of disappointment and intensely realistic example of medieval life.

In last episode the hound in true character sacrifices himself. Arya died more times then Sean Bean during his entire career.

Jamie dies happy knowing that he cockblocked Tormund.

CrownRoyal
Member
Sun May 19 20:08:07
Zero nudity?
Rugian
Member
Sun May 19 20:18:27
IBTY has gotten really lazy toward the end, hasn't he. Five minutes AFTER episode start? HBO isn't getting their money's worth here at all.
Forwyn
Member
Sun May 19 20:45:40
lulz, freefolk have been right so far. This shit sandwich is tasty
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun May 19 21:22:13
Wasn’t that bad. Well, the council scene was bad, where did they find Edmure ffs. But other than that, it was ok.
Rugian
Member
Sun May 19 21:27:57
Okay, so the leaks were correct all along, that was kind of a given at this point.

But Arya becoming Christopher fucking Columbus? What in the actual fuck?
CrownRoyal
Member
Sun May 19 21:28:35
All about expectations, as usual. Mine were as low as possible
hood
Member
Sun May 19 21:29:21
At least we got what seemed like confirmation that Bran could see the future when he told Tyrion "why do you think I came all this way?"
Rugian
Member
Sun May 19 21:56:08
Well. That officially sucked massive fucking balls.



I cant wait for CC's inevitable "as long as the writing is explicable that's the same thing as being good" bullshit. Oh, this season is actually a secret work of genius provided you first watch all 68 prior episodes in reverse order, or something? Fuck you, you fucking cunt.

That was absolute steaming garbage, no getting around it. I hope D&D's Star Wars movie fails horribly.
obaminated
Member
Sun May 19 22:58:13
i liked it, every character ended where they belonged. Jon having a happy ending was surprising and was nice and unexpected.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun May 19 23:18:04
and not too explicable... why would the unsullied keep him prisoner & care what others had to say before executing?


choosing as leader the guy who seems detached from reality seems a bit odd, certainly didn't see that one coming
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sun May 19 23:23:28
Brienne filling out Jaime's pages was a nice touch though
Cherub Cow
Member
Sun May 19 23:48:05
[Hood]: "At least we got what seemed like confirmation that Bran could see the future when he told Tyrion "why do you think I came all this way?""

Meh. Not really. Why do you think I came to this thread?
*dramatic pause so you think that I saw it coming that this thread would be made and we'd talk about Bran and I would say these very words and blah blah I'm a seer now just because I mentioned it* :/

I think Bran can see the future, sure, for the story, but I wish we'd gotten more than retroactive "proof". I think we were denied power demos this season.

..
[Rugian]: ""as long as the writing is explicable that's the same thing as being good" bullshit."

I didn't say that simply being able to understand writing makes it good, but I did say that this writing can be understood and makes logical sense...

...does that mean that your counterpoint is that the writing should be *in*explicable? Not really sure what you're going for...

..
[Rugian]: "I hope D&D's Star Wars movie fails horribly."

It won't fail in the box office because Star Wars makes money regardless of anything... but it will fail horribly as a movie (i.e., it'll be shit) because it's Star Wars.

..
..
Not a particularly interesting episode.

I was happy that the throne was melted and that they changed the way that monarchy is handled (thus, "surprise, surprise," Seb, the fucking idiot, was totally incorrect about "a return to the status quo" in the vein of the War of the Roses — but just watch him pretend that he was right even though he was wrong, as usual), but I still would have preferred it if Dennis the peasant (who — as it turned out — was Sam?) had established an anarcho-syndicalist commune...

Got to watch some of my guesses come true:
— already mentioned.. but the melted throne
- I was also sort of right about Greyworm fleeing to Naath (no telling if Missandei's head was on board, though)
- Sansa taking a seat in the North (obvious, though.. and sadly no weird marriage to Arya)
- Jon going north to shack up with Tormund (I was wrong about Brienne opening a goat's milk distillery with Tormund, though)
- Samwise Gamgee presents a book called "A Song of Ice and Fire" (but I thought he'd be lead author and would present it as an old man so that we'd get some looks at the future)

Sadly, I was not correct about Queen Elizabeth II; she did not kill herself on the steps of the Red Keep (fucking bullshit — fuck these writers).

Also a big bummer for me that Bran didn't turn out to be a villain. He didn't even bury himself in the Winterfell tree roots :/ ... It would have been a very notable final episode if he warged and revealed that he was the NK and the Lord of Light — even if no one else was the wiser — but whatever. That's my big complaint. I already spent words on it in other threads so I won't just repeat here, but I really wish they'd explored the identity of the Lord of Light. Ser Davos expressed interest in S8E4, so I thought we might get it... but no :/

Without a big move like that (Bran = NK&LordofLight), that means that this really was just a conclusion episode — everything else interesting already happened earlier in the show. Now that it's all over, it just leaves me wanting more details that the show didn't give (so, "Read the books!" obviously) :/

..
- I (also) liked Brienne's writing of Jaime's history..
- Jon's farewell to Arya was also nice.
- Arya's decision to sail west was a nice callback to her season 1 curiosity (she said the same line: "What's west of Westeros?"), so not totally bizarre but also not too interesting.
- Surprising that Brienne didn't stay with Sansa
- Nice that Tyrion actually got to see the bodies of Jaime and Cersei

..
Overall a good show, but Breaking Bad had a better finale :p
hood
Member
Mon May 20 00:03:46
CC, that's why I said "what seemed like confirmation." Which leaves things pretty unsatisfying.

No explanation of the NK or the Lord of Light or weather patterns (why do winters and summers take years? GRRM said it was magic; where's my fucking explanation?). No more exploring Bran's warging; would also have been cool if Bran had warged into Drogon to melt the throne... but oh well.

To return to some of the other convos surrounding s8:

I found Jaime well written. It may not have been satisfying to see him abandon reason for Cersei and end up dead, but it was a move nobody really questioned. It made sense.

Dany going from "I punish those I see as bad" to "meh, fuck innocents that I know are innocent" still doesn't make sense. Tyrion even summed it up in his conversation with Jon. All of Dany's previous actions were punishing bad people. Dany confirmed this: she said she and Jon both know good. Dany knew the wholesale murder of most of the city wasn't good. There's no reconciliation here. She was, however, very well done in this episode. I also very much liked how they showed Jon's tipping point in deciding to kill her, when she said that other people don't get to decide what's good.

The unsullied not killing Jon instantly didn't make too much sense. Greyworm has never been portrayed as particularly savvy. Why his emotions didn't just lunge at Jon with a knife is mystifying. Why he also accepted that the "king of westeros" decide Jon's fate is beyond me. Why he stood there silent, letting everyone have their say... why? Why did he even bother waiting 2 weeks? Why not just kill the prisoners and set sail and be done with it?
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon May 20 00:22:00
[hood]: "Dany confirmed this: she said she and Jon both know good."

She didn't confirm it so much as introduce relativism into it. That is, she *thinks* that what she did was "good" because it's part of how she wants to shape the [then] 7 Kingdoms. So she did *not* know that "the wholesale murder of most of the city wasn't good"; at her very end she thought that the discharge of her power was good simply because she herself willed it (her megalomania). Jon's idea of good was aligned with the audience's distaste for "innocent" genocide. The fact that she thought that she had done "good" but Jon knew that she had not and that she could not accept other versions of "good" was why he killed her — to prevent more of her "good" genocide.

..
[hood]: "The unsullied not killing Jon instantly didn't make too much sense. Greyworm has never been portrayed as particularly savvy.

I thought about that, and I think the big factor was that Danny's body was not present. *Jon* saw her body and saw Drogon fly off with it, but likely no one else did. That means that either Unsullied entered the throne room to find out what happened or Jon went out to tell them, which gives him some authority (he knows Danny's fate, and only by having him alive to repeat the tale does she continue to live in any way).

And without a body, they would be a little lost ("[Is she *really* gone? Can we believe Jon?]"). That leaves them to their stupid minds: like you said, Greyworm and the Unsullied were not particularly bright. They were bred and trained for obedience, and at that point they had no master and no body of a master to directly inspire their revenge. They would be looking for answers and guidance.

..so I think it's just the cost of them being too stupid and too disciplined. They can't proceed without living orders present.
hood
Member
Mon May 20 00:27:37
"she did *not* know that "the wholesale murder of most of the city wasn't good";"

Sure she did. She accepted that it was bad when she attempted to deflect blame onto Cersei by claiming that they were being used as a shield. She fully understood that her tantrum in ep5 was bad. If your argument was pointed to Dany thinking it was *necessary* (but not good), I would agree; Dany definitely rationalized it.
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon May 20 01:10:31
Yeah she rationalized it, but she rationalized it as a good... That conversation was about how it was for the good of the realm and that she'd do the same again and again to take all of Westeros. That's her version of good. She knows it's good because it's her and she has the power to choose it. If Cersei uses innocents as a shield, it's still good for Danny to burn those innocents because Danny has the power to make that choice (her choice is itself virtuous and good). So she wasn't merely blaming Cersei, she was making Cersei evil; anyone who makes choices against Danny is evil (whether that be Cersei, Tyrion, Varys, etc.) which leaves any choice that Danny makes "good". She can't lose. Burning innocents is for her good. No ragrets.
obaminated
Member
Mon May 20 01:34:48
regarding greyworm, him not killing Jon really is sorta inconsistent. the only thing i can conclude, which wasn't in the episode and requires a bit of stretching, was that greyworm really wanted to go to naath. he didnt want to die in westeros which he would have if he killed Jon because the entire continent would have made sure anyone involved in his death got what was coming to them. well, at least those in the north and vale (former allies) and possibly riverlands (family connections) and the reach (bronn connection).
hood
Member
Mon May 20 02:16:16
A thought about the Lord of Light:
Without an explanation, how the fuck did Jon get resurrected? Same with Beric. Can just any old fuck resurrect someone? Where did that magic power come from? If Bran were the Lord of Light, you could at least make some vague argument that he used his warging 3ER powers to pull Jon's consciousness out from his dying body, through time, and into the corpse that was resurrected. Same for Beric.

So much unanswered. Kinda disappointed.
obaminated
Member
Mon May 20 02:39:41
well the point of not explaining a Gods power is the fact that it is a God. we don't know what they want or why. we just play their game. Davos talked about this.

we can assume the lord of light wanted to defeat the Nights King because if the Nights King won there would be no one worshiping the lord of light.

not explaining the God's motivation explicitly was something I really liked.
hood
Member
Mon May 20 06:31:56
What god? We don't even have any idea if the Lord of light is real.
Pillz
Member
Mon May 20 07:37:32
I am pretty sure the story intentionally leads us to believe that all the gods are real except the 7
jergul
large member
Mon May 20 07:42:41
Elected monarchy certainly enhances the role of lineage. So it remains all about blood lines.

I will agree with Seb that it simply is a logical extention of status quo, but with an orderly transition of power through elections instead of all this messy king and queenslaying

The night watch re-established as a needed safety valve with or without the white walkers.

I quite liked the ending.
Pillz
Member
Mon May 20 07:44:40
Also what a horrible ending. At least I can assume this is roughly Martin's ending and rest easy knowing I never have to finish the series.
hood
Member
Mon May 20 08:29:15
Pillz, I know it wants us to believe that the Lord of light is real. But we don't have any actual evidence.
Asgard
Member
Mon May 20 08:44:39
Assume not
He will change his ending due to the outrage

I skipped all the text above, I will not spoil it until I watch it later today
Pillz
Member
Mon May 20 09:17:04
You have proof - you just meet it with unreasonable skepticism.

Two of his priests have resurrected the dead. One can summon shadow demons. Beric had visions about the long night and - in a world where nobody goes north and nobody believes in white walkers, was compelled to lead his whole rebel band to the wall.

The hound also got visions when he camped with beric iirc.

So these are all overt signs there is a lord of light. That is without even mentioning Melissandres amulet and extended life span. But since its a physical object, well leave it aside.

Are you trying to claim these are all random occurances? Beric just happened to have 9 lives. Or thoros just happened to reach the pinnacle of alcoholism and suddenly the ability to resurrect the dead?

Or are you going to attribute it all to Bran?
hood
Member
Mon May 20 10:12:41
Bran warging could easily explain the resurrections. Bran seeing the future could also explain how he knows to resurrect Beric to protect Arya (or even without seeing the future, he goes back and resurrects Jon and Beric after the battle).

Visions in fire is hardly evidence. See: Mel's inability to accurately see the future for Stannis, thinking Stannis was the chosen one. Also see the prophecy about Cersei being killed by a brother not coming to fruition. Visions are not dependable.

The shadow assassin is definitely magic, but is it Lord of Light magic? Other beings have used magic. Valyria of old was supposed to have access to a vast array of spells that were lost to mankind, none of which were attributed to godly power. Even Mel explains the shadow as drawing power from Kings' blood (gendry).

I get that the gods are supposed to be real. But we aren't really given any good evidence. The leading representative of the Lord of Light was often wrong.

//

Got side tracked by looking up GoT religions. Might have more to say later.
Paramount
Member
Mon May 20 11:19:32
Lol. Just lol. That is all I’ve got to say about the ending.
Paramount
Member
Mon May 20 11:23:08
So now what? Will someone make a new serie about Arya’s adventures west of Westeros? I hope not.

I’m going to write my own novel about a girl sailing west into the unknown.
Rugian
Member
Mon May 20 11:32:40
CC,

My point being that you seem to have a tendency to defend any writing decisions made as long as the thought process behind them can be discerned.

Sorry, but logic can still result in a mediocre product. See: Game of Thrones.

------

Anyway, just some of the things wrong with the finale (not commenting on the season generally for now, that would require a full essay):

-Turns out Dany had nothing left to contribute to the story, she had fulfilled her "use" as of last episode so the only thing left for her was to kill her

-Arya suddenly deciding to become Christopher Columbus out of fucking nowhere

-ANOTHER set failure (this time involving a water bottle)

-Grey Worm teleporting from scene to scene

-Tyrion deciding on who should be king at what's supposed to be his trial

-Yara kind of forgetting that the Iron Islands are supposedly independent now

-Bronn becoming Maester of Coin. Bronn. The immoral, greedy fuck whose desire to get rich is met only by his total lack of knowledge on financial matters (remember "I dont know how a loan works?") is now in charge of Westeros' finances. Good times.

-Brienne closing that book before the ink had a chance to die

-Brienne writing that Jaime took Riverrun with no lose of life. Lol Blackfish

-Speaking of which, Edmure (whose actor I really like) arbitrarily emerging from the woodwork after two seasons. It would have been nice to get a scene at any point in S7 or S8 where he was freed and had to account for his actions at RR, but...nah. Instead it's just "lol you're so silly uncle."

-No explanation of what happens to the Dothraki

-The Unsullied's respawn rate

-Nymeria officially had no role beyond Season 1

-Arya's faces had no relevance to anything

-Jon's lineage having no relevance to the plot (other than making Dany feel super duper insecure)

-The Wildlings electing to resettle a frozen tundra instead of the good farmlands they had been offered

-Jon was brought back from the dead to...be Brutus, I guess?

-Hodor and the Reed kid died so that Bran could be a placeholder king, not because he had any relevance in defeating the Army of the Dead or anything

-"Why do you think I came all this way?" Seriously, fuck you.
Paramount
Member
Mon May 20 11:41:06
”Arya's faces had no relevance to anything

-Jon's lineage having no relevance to the plot (other than making Dany feel super duper insecure) ”



Yup, lol. Maybe the writers got very lazy lately and just didn’t care anymore. They just wanted to finish GoT as soon as possible.


Also, I thought Night King and his dragon razed and destroyed that ice wall. But it looked like Thormund must have rebuilt the wall in a couple of weeks, in time for Jon’s arrival?
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Mon May 20 11:41:51
the king-picking discussion probably should've been a lot more lively & drawn out... instead of seeming like a group of exhausted people who had a project due the next day

original Yara would not have gone for some silent cripple as leader... not sure how soft she has gotten though... the Dorne guy was just hanging around, can't imagine he knew a thing about Bran
obaminated
Member
Mon May 20 12:00:44
"What god? We don't even have any idea if the Lord of light is real."

is sorta the point. we know there is magic but is there an actual God or was it just some unknown magic that people tapped into and made a story about? GRRM is an atheist so it makes sense that he would hit at organized religion as something that people try to understand but really don't know about at all.
Rugian
Member
Mon May 20 12:03:29
Paramount,

To be fair, most of us would have stopped giving a shit about this show if we were being offered Disney Star Wars money. What's unforgivable is that they continued to insist on running things even after they had clearly moved on from it.

Also, remembered something else:

"I know a killer when I see one." Do you, Arya? Well thanks for that, I myself was still on the fence on the subject even after Daenerys commited a Holocaust-scale act of genocide last week. Appreciate the clarification.
Rugian
Member
Mon May 20 12:05:45
And on the subject of the Wall...what's the actual point of it now? They can just let that thing fall into decay and collapse, it's not defending against anyone now.

And what's the purpose of the Nights Watch? Ffs
hood
Member
Mon May 20 12:12:20
GRRM is/was Catholic. Nice try.
Rugian
Member
Mon May 20 12:16:29
Hood,

A lapsed Catholic. He describes himself as atheist.
jergul
large member
Mon May 20 12:20:13
Ruggy
The purpose is to get rid of malcontents and bastards.

Though you are seriously leaping to conclusions about it not having a defensive function.

It is not the first time the white walkers have been defeated south of the wall.

http://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/White_Walkers

In addition, someone needs to police the wildlings.
Rugian
Member
Mon May 20 14:14:28
Jergulino,

Funny, I thought the purpose of the Nights Watch was to protect against the far North. Being a dumping grounds for criminals and bastards was merely an ancillary benefit of its function.

WWs are gone bro. I realize that's easy to forget since it only took one episode to defeat them.
Pillz
Member
Mon May 20 14:16:27
Maybe in a new series, Jon becomes the next night king. He did take a knife to the heart and come back from the dead.
Crownroyal
Member
Mon May 20 14:17:49
wildlings can become a threat, no? Plus ice spiders, giants and all the shit that lives up there.
Forwyn
Member
Mon May 20 14:20:25
I was really hoping a WW would pop out on the wildings at the end
Paramount
Member
Mon May 20 14:46:17
Was there a reason why the dragon destroyed the Iron Throne? Did the dragon know what he did? Or was he only breathing fire at random and destroyed it unknowingly?

Maybe the writers thought that the Iron Throne had now played out its role (Bran has his own Wheel Throne) so they thought ”why not destroy the iron throne?” and then they let the dragon do it.
Pillz
Member
Mon May 20 14:47:59
Why didn't it kill Jon?
Forwyn
Member
Mon May 20 14:51:04
"See what ya'll dumb mothafuckers do for a chair my granddaddy made? Lemme help ya'll out"
Paramount
Member
Mon May 20 15:06:53
I’m thinking maybe the dragon knew that Jon is a relative to Danearys so he didn’t want to kill Jon.

Or, the dragon saw the metal blade in Danearys and then it saw the throne with all the blades, so it put two and two together and killed the throne.
hood
Member
Mon May 20 15:10:07
I'm pretty sure that the dragon is smarter than you are.
Paramount
Member
Mon May 20 15:28:41
Hood, do you have a better exlanation why the dragon killed the throne and not Jon?
Asgard
Member
Mon May 20 16:51:06
I spoiled it and read the ending summary.

Of crap.
Well, I'm not gonna watch this garbage.
I'll wait for GRRM to finish writing, thank you very much.
Seb
Member
Mon May 20 19:15:36
Cc:

We had proof.

Bran doesn't see the future. Future bran sees the past. Past brann trusts future bran.
Seb
Member
Mon May 20 19:16:03
Future Bran gets someone else to hold the door.
Seb
Member
Mon May 20 19:35:31
"was happy that the throne was melted and that they changed the way that monarchy is handled (thus, "surprise, surprise," Seb, the fucking idiot, was totally incorrect about "a return to the status quo" in the vein of the War of the Roses — but just watch him pretend that he was right even though he was wrong, as usual), but I still would have preferred it if Dennis the peasant (who — as it turned out — was Sam?) had established an anarcho-syndicalist commune..."

How do we end? With the wheel broken? No. We end with the status quo: squabling lords. The just we see of be the lords of the six kingdoms is them literally bickering around the table.

When bran dies, will they select a new king peacefully? Maybe. Maybe not. But the whole point of the game of thrones isn't blood lineage, it's jockeying for power. Nothing has changed, there's nothing to stop the barons reaorting to force to get the king they want.
Arguably, we've actually gone from the Targaryeans as Normans to Magna Carta, despite the war of roses backdrop. Even less advancement.


In retrospect, the problem with Danny's arc isn't the pace, or the destination.
It's the sudden shift from self doubt to utter belief in oneself.

I can see this is supposed to be echoed by killing Varys (her appointed concience); but while I see all the motivation there - what I didnt really buy in the end is that shift from reasonable doubt to certainty.

She wouldn't have lied to Tyrion allowing surrender.

Also this shows how d&d are all over the place (maybev trying to avoid spoilers?) and why we should ignore them when interpreting the show. Last featurette they said Danny snapped. This episode she gives an entirely cold rational explanation.

Meh.





Seb
Member
Mon May 20 19:47:16
Also, apparently hints from Brand visions he can see the future
https://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/game-of-thrones/41068/game-of-thrones-season-6-breaking-down-blood-of-my-bloods-vision
Rugian
Member
Mon May 20 19:56:34
I mean, trying to figure out Bran's powers at this point is a completely futile endeavor.

http://www...bqppad/whats_west_of_westeros/
Seb
Member
Mon May 20 20:08:06
Rugian:

Bran is thinking "gosh, I never thought to look over there".

Seriously though. We've literally seen future bran influence the past in such a way as to ensure present bran exists.

If hodor had not existed, it's fair to say Bran would not have got to the position of being able to make hodor exist.

At that point the difference between seeing the future and seeing the past is merely a matter of perspective as agency is demonstratively post causal.

I.e. present bran does not need to see the future in order to ensure future bran exists to see and influence the past to ensure future bran exists. It just happens. It's destiny. Timey wimey ball of string.


Forwyn
Member
Mon May 20 20:12:42
"-Hodor and the Reed kid died so that Bran could be a placeholder king, not because he had any relevance in defeating the Army of the Dead or anything"

The single most important character who ensured Bran's survival north of the wall, one of the few slayers of a white walker, didn't even get a 10 second blip. F for Meera, fuck you D&D
Paramount
Member
Tue May 21 00:54:15
”How do we end? With the wheel broken? No.”

We end with the Wheel Throne.
Paramount
Member
Tue May 21 00:56:56
Me: ”Hood, do you have a better exlanation why the dragon killed the throne and not Jon?”

Hood: ” ”.


See, my explanation isn’t so dumb.
hood
Member
Tue May 21 01:00:44
My lack of interest in telling you how stupid you are isn't evidence that you aren't stupid.
McKobb
Member
Tue May 21 01:24:04
Jon Queenslayer has a nice 80's amalgamous metal band name to it.
CrownRoyal
Member
Tue May 21 08:51:36
Thw whole GoT show should have been this - first three GRM's SOIF books, adhering to books as much as possible, with the best special effects, etc. Once they decided to go further, it was doomed to become what it was this season.

I'm just saying, if GRM wasn't able to come up with anything amazing after the first three volumes (books four and five were noticeably inferior), what was the likelyhood of GoT writers doing it? Slim to none, so this whole enterprise was bound to end the way it ended, with pissed off fans, demanding the re-shoot, and I am not sure it could have ended any other way

hood
Member
Tue May 21 09:00:16
Ok, Bran the Alcoholic.
McKobb
Member
Tue May 21 09:21:26
We all blame GRM. I didnt need the show but the show is probably all we are going to get.
Crownroyal
Member
Tue May 21 10:30:47
Do they call the new Queen in the North Sansa the Raped? What's with that unflattering nick for king Bran?
Crownroyal
Member
Tue May 21 10:43:49
Princess Shereen Baratheon, the Fuckfaced
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue May 21 11:20:24
he's probably destined to rule by fear... once word is out he can possess animals, the peasant people will have to assume every rat is watching them
Seb
Member
Tue May 21 11:29:06
CrownRoyal:

Makes him less threatening.

The whole "who has a good story" bit was justification by Tyrion.

Tyrion essentially saying "put a weak cipher on the throne and let the lords rule via the council, and make sure you don't get a powerful/easily captured heir"

Basically Magna Carta. But without the Carta. Or like the holy roman emperor (though I think the intent is that the king of the six kingdoms should *not* be a powerful figure with an independent per base)

It might become institutionalised norm that facilitates collaborative rule by the Lords. But will almost certainly collapse when one day an alliance seeks to put one of themselves or a proxy on the throne for factional gain.

Forwyn
Member
Tue May 21 16:37:57
WW kills:
Jon - 2
Arya - 1*
Meera - 1
Sam - 1
Everyone else in the entire world - 0

http://twi...tatus/1130320975453675520?s=20
obaminated
Member
Tue May 21 21:48:28
Meera was a pretty tomboy. Not sure why they wrote her off. She wasn't important but her sticking around to see the end of the series would make sense.
Hrothgar
Member
Tue May 21 23:46:36
The Dragon slagging the throne and Brienne redoing Jaime's page of the King's guard was the saving grace of an otherwise shallow, melancholy episode that had to shove too much story through too small a time segment.

Bran becoming king I thought was *almost* a nice, surprise ending, with the exception that his character was too aloof to really feel satisfied about it. A contrasting example a few seasons back when Daenerys made Tyrion her hand - that scene was powerful because you felt that emotional empathy with Tyrion after so much development. That audience emotion was utterly lacking for Bran due to neglect of character development over the previous couple of seasons.
Seb
Member
Wed May 22 05:21:17
Agreed re Bran.

I feel it would have worked better if it was played more obvious power move by Tyrion.

It should be seen as Tyrion finally achieving his objective of a better world by neutering the absolute monarchy and the instability it brings, rather than a "hooray bran is king".

But Tyrion was far too satisfied and unchanged.

The early scenes leading up to his throwing the badge, and his talk with Jon were brilliant.

Thereafter he felt oddly forced and unnatural

And in the small council I felt he'd regressed to much where he was many years before. I feel he ought to be haunted by the destruction Danaerys has wrought in substantial part because he not only enabled her, but sent his closest friend to execution who was then immediately vindicated.

On the one hand, that fits a more down best ending where not much has actually changed - but the tone was more upbeat.

It's like they hadn't really decided what the plot points were supposed to mean for the theme and the right tone to aim for.

Seb
Member
Wed May 22 05:25:30
I can imagine it working with minimal change.

In UK period dramas, the late Edwardian (that is, 30s) are often portrayed (when the setting is upper middle class) as sunny, lazy days but with a heavy hint of forboding at the catastrophe looming *that is largely in the perception of the viewer* who knows from context it's all about to come crashing down.

I feel the small council scene at the end, with Tyrions return to his never finished joke as being in that vein; but without actually knowing what happens next, I'm not sure it works that way (or even if that was what was intended).

Asgard
Member
Wed May 22 16:11:45
I don't get the whole part where an entire army loses their Queen and that army's sole reason for invading was it's devoutness to said Queen, and just... Locking the person responsible for it in a cell.

I'd expect at least the dorhraki to go on a rapepage.
obaminated
Member
Wed May 22 23:38:17
re Seb: "And in the small council I felt he'd regressed to much where he was many years before."

But Tyrion has changed. We see him adjusting the chairs and preparing to present himself in a more professional/serious manner. But the people in the council haven't really changed.

And the point of that scene was to show that Bran is a very hands off King and the real rulers of the realm are the small council, comprised of two high born guys (one is a dwarf, the other is a book nerd) and two low born guys who have to learn to govern and compromise together. That does show that it is hopeful to the future, assuming we all agree absolute monarchy is a bad thing. But we also know all the characters on the council and we all know they won't agree but they also won't go to war with each other/murder each other like the council members were willing to do in the beginning of the series.

Seb
Member
Thu May 23 06:55:36
Obaminated:

But similarly, Roberts small council was essentially running the show while Robert fucked off to fuck, joust, hunt and drink. And various factions intrigued in that vacuum until it all fell apart.

So it's not hugely disimilar. I take your point re Tyrion and the chairs, but the last is him going back to the joke he keeps not finishing that comes from season 1.

And we don't see them compromising. We see them still disagreeing.

So, when the succession comes... well maybe "tyrions" lot won't. But will Tulley and Dorne? And I think you can't at all rely on Bronn.

So to me, it's very precarious. Nothing really has truly changed - we are pegging all hopes on these particular individuals.

You can read it as hopeful: that an elected monarch removes the marriage politics that have plagued the kingdom since Aerys was killed by making it impossible to balance the houses (the monarch has to be married to someone!).

Or you can look at it as a somewhat ominous conclusion given the certainty of a succession crisis with few of the structural incentives for houses to compete restored.

I don't know if Martin will ever get to finish, but I think he probably wouldn't leave the situation quite so open (at least, given the relative depth and sophistication of the world building apparent in the early seasons).

The Children
Member
Thu May 30 02:39:22
so tc finally finished this shit in a marathon.

tc is appaled and tc wants 2 vomit. i had no high hopes going in anyway but it is even shittier than expected.

just garbage.

also, i just remembered something most people 4got.

remember that chick from dawn with her snake daughter. she was caught and put in a cell by cercei where she was chained and had 2 watch her daughter die from poison???

remember her?

what happened 2 her? did she burn along with da city?

pulverized by da crumblin castle? burned 2 death by drogon?

rofl they totally 4got about her. what a cheap show.

Kilo
Member
Thu Jun 13 11:08:45
Last season was fucking terrible... that's all
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