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Utopia Talk / Politics / Douchebag loses college admissions
Dukhat
Member
Tue Jun 18 02:04:38
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-48665795

Harvard rescinds admission for Parkland student 'over racist slurs'

A teenager who survived a gun massacre at his Florida high school has said he lost his spot at Harvard University over past racist remarks.

Kyle Kashuv, 18, said the online comments were made when he was 16, and were done "in an effort to be as extreme and shocking as possible".

He had since apologised and on Monday shared what appeared to be a rescission letter from the university.

Seventeen students and faculty were killed in Parkland, Florida in 2018.

"Harvard deciding that someone can't grow, especially after a life-altering event like the shooting, is deeply concerning," he posted in a thread to his 300,000 Twitter followers.

"If any institution should understand growth, it's Harvard, which is looked to as the pinnacle of higher education despite its chequered past," he wrote, adding: "Throughout its history, Harvard's faculty has included slave owners, segregationists, bigots and anti-Semites."

"If Harvard is suggesting that growth isn't possible and that our past defines our future, then Harvard is an inherently racist institution. But I don't believe that."

A spokeswoman for Harvard told CNN on Monday that the university does "not comment publicly on the admissions status of individual applicants".

Since the shooting, Mr Kashuv has stood apart from his peers at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School by calling for private gun rights to be protected under the US constitution's second amendment. Many of the Parkland shooting survivors have focused their efforts on gun control in the wake of the shooting.

Classmates David Hogg and Jaclyn Corin - who called for more restrictions on gun sales after surviving the massacre - are due to begin their study at Harvard, one of the most prestigious schools in the US, in 2020.

What happened?
In May the high school senior apologised for the comments, which were made in text and Skype messages as well as in a shared Google document for a class study guide two years ago.

Screenshots of those remarks were shared online by at least one of Mr Kashuv's classmates, Ariana Ali, who told the New Yorker: "The more prominent he got, the more I was bothered by his hypocrisy."

On Monday Mr Kashuv took to Twitter to say "we were 16-year-olds making idiotic comments, using callous and inflammatory language in an effort to be as extreme and shocking as possible", and added that he "immediately apologised" for the two-year old exchanges.

"I'm embarrassed by it, but I want to be clear that the comments I made are not indicative of who I am or who I've become in the years since."

The alleged comments included threats against Jews and racial slurs in reference to African Americans.

In one message he apparently wrote he would "make a CSOG map of Douglas [high school] and practise". Some students claimed the reference was to the shooting-themed video game "Counter-Strike: Global Offensive".

Mr Kashuv said he turned down scholarships from other universities and the deadline to accept other offers has passed.

Harvard University - like many other US colleges - reserves the right to rescind admission offers under certain instances, including if students' grades drop at the end of high school or if they engage in questionable behaviour.

The Ivy League college revoked offers for 10 prospective students in 2017 over explicit and racist messages shared in a private Facebook group, according to the Harvard Crimson school newspaper."

*********

HAHAHAHAAHHAHA LOL ROFLMAO. Fucking cuck got cucked.
smart dude
Member
Tue Jun 18 02:26:21
"especially after a life-altering event like the shooting"

Publicly leveraging the attack for sympathy points on social media like this is probably the doucheiest part.

"we were 16-year-olds"

Lmao, it was two years ago.

"Harvard's faculty has included slave owners, segregationists, bigots and anti-Semites."

My mind is boggled by this statement...is he defending slavery and anti-semitism? "Hey they weren't so bad, right? So neither am I!" The logic is confounding.
TJ
Member
Tue Jun 18 10:56:03
This situation seems to call into question the age of emotional accountability. 16-lmao

Landmark birthdays:

Drivers license at 16
Vote at 18
Join the military 18
Sign contracts 18
Drink alcohol 21
Rent a car without added liability charges

Hypocrisy is abundant in society and politics. This kid is being used as a tool sacrificed by the left and right.
Rugian
Member
Tue Jun 18 10:58:41
Meanwhile, the governor of Virginia is still around...
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Jun 18 11:24:19
because there was no means to remove him
yankeessuck123
Member
Tue Jun 18 11:51:26
This definitely speaks to a larger issue, which we do need to figure out how to address as a society. All of us here are old enough that most of the dumb shit we did growing up isn't readily visible to broader society. That won't be the case for kids like this one. You've got kids in their teens (and younger) on social media, posting whatever idiocy seems good to them at the time. But things that are on the internet are there forever.

This kid was a dumbass at 16, and it is going to have a lifelong effect for him. We have to decide whether we're ok with that, because he's not the only kid who will find himself in a situation like this.
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Jun 18 12:03:28
He used a bad word!!! Lynch him!!!

Also cuckhat drives a prius.
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 18 13:15:47
Um. But isn't what you do as a 16 year old exactly what universities select on?

There are plenty of 16 year olds that displayed better emotional maturity and social awareness not to engage in childish behaviour and had the maturity and judgement to realise this might harm their career, and have the same academic grades.

Such individuals are more likely to grow and develop further at Harvard and have better careers bringing more donations.

So why wouldn't Harvard chose them over him?

Sounds a bit entitled frankly.
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Tue Jun 18 13:17:29
Hard to pass judgement considering we don't know what he said.
Forwyn
Member
Tue Jun 18 13:19:12
"My mind is boggled by this statement...is he defending slavery and anti-semitism?"

If you aren't a retard, it's pretty clear he's saying that Harvard is hypocritical to place themselves on a pedestal of morality.

But pretty hilarious that Hogg & Co. get enshrined by the media while someone who doesn't toe the ideological line gets infodumped.
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Jun 18 13:20:55
"and have better careers"

But then why does havard choose so many less qualified candidates because of their skin color?

Seb you retarded hypocrite. You are just trying to justify anti-white racism, which along with anti-asian racism, havard is well known for.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jun 18 14:27:23
WHAT THE FUCK DID HE EVEN SAY? Anyone bothered with that before they jumped into their trenches?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jun 18 14:31:28
http://twitter.com/c3yric/status/1140629111980875786
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jun 18 14:32:46
Nigga please, context matters.
hood
Member
Tue Jun 18 14:37:31
So.

Guy is 18 now? He was a complete fucking retard at 16? He's still a fucking retard. If this guy was 23 or something and looking for a job, I'd be all for giving him a chance. But the likelihood of him still being a retard only 2 years later while still also being a child? Somewhere north of 90%.


"Harvard is hypocritical to place themselves on a pedestal of morality."

Sure, if you're working with retard levels of logic or brain cells. But he's also confirmed as one of those people, so it's very understandable for him to not get why his argument is so distanced from logic.



Not gonna feel all that sorry for him. Give him a break when he reaches drinking age and proves he can act responsibly. Until then? Tard.
Rugian
Member
Tue Jun 18 15:10:46
Am I the only one that actually reads OPs?

"The alleged comments included threats against Jews and racial slurs in reference to African Americans.

In one message he apparently wrote he would "make a CSOG map of Douglas [high school] and practise". Some students claimed the reference was to the shooting-themed video game "Counter-Strike: Global Offensive"."
Rugian
Member
Tue Jun 18 15:16:02
Anyway, the real offense is that the kid doesnt know how to post anonymously on the internet. Mensa material my ass.

Harvard admissions is still a politicized clusterfuck of course.
jergul
large member
Tue Jun 18 15:35:37
Landmark birthdays:

Drivers license at 18
Vote at 18
Join the military 18
Sign contracts 18
Drink alcohol 18

:).
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 18 16:10:35
Nim:
Bunch of stuff on the screenshots I saw. There was a bunch of very direct anti sematic stuff.

Sam:

Anti white racism eh? Really?
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 18 16:11:49
Interesting form of racism to give him a position and then remove it when they find out he's anti Semitic racist douchebag.
TJ
Member
Tue Jun 18 16:24:50
Sources say he is Jewish.
Forwyn
Member
Tue Jun 18 16:47:06
"There was a bunch of very direct anti sematic stuff."

Oh, shut the fuck up. The Jewish kid doesn't need you virtue signalling about ruining his academic career based on self-deprecating jokes.

"What is also in that same message is I used anti-Semitic jokes and I basically pray every week," Kashuv added. "I'm Jewish. My parents are Jewish. They emigrated from Israel. Half of my family was wiped out in the Holocaust. So clearly it’s not indicative of who I am."

http://www...s-kyle-kashuv-on-past-comments
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 18 17:12:39
Forwyn:

I didn't ruin his career, he did. How much university entry is about character references, voluntary stuff etc.?

A fuck ton. So he fucked around being an edgelord. Here's a good Oxbridge style interview questions: is it always ethical to make disparaging racist statements if you are a member of the group disparaged?

Remember, your assessor is looking for a well rounded argument that covers off the pros and cons.

Also, you are using the term virtue signaling wrongly, as I'm fully aware there's virtually nobody on the board who will look at my view here as being "virtuous". Nor, as it ought to be apparent, that I view any of you with anything other than contempt or indifference. It's more likely you are virtue signalling to the board that you share the correct politicals view of this small society.



Seb
Member
Tue Jun 18 17:17:34
Certainly when I was doing my university entry at 16 I was quite conscious about how I presented myself in public.

I was even careful about what I posted *here* at the time.

Even if you think that a Jew can't be doing anything wrong by making disparaging remarks about Jews; it displays poor judgement and there will be equally brilliant candidates who haven't.

This is the law of competition.

And not going to Harvard won't kill your academic career if you are intelligent and skilled. There are plenty of high fliers who didn't go to top universities.

If his career is ruined by not going to Harvard, it sounds like he's not got much going for him to be relying purely on his Alma maters brand name.



Rugian
Member
Tue Jun 18 17:31:42
"How much university entry is about...voluntary stuff etc.?

A less generous way to put it would be to substitute "voluntary stuff etc." for "social justice causes."

And again, he's the one that refused to play the game, so to a certain extent I'm unsympathetic. But the game IS rigged.
hood
Member
Tue Jun 18 17:52:05
If local volunteer work or non-academic school activities (sports, clubs) are "social justice causes" to you, I would take a hard look at just how warped your perception of reality has become.
Forwyn
Member
Tue Jun 18 18:01:48
I'm just going to note that I specifically said "academic career", not career in general. After leftist ire fades, I'm sure the kid will be fine. But this undoubtedly does set his academic career back significantly, even if red flags aren't permanently tied to him - he turned down other colleges and is long past the enrollment period. If college was his goal, he's a year behind at best, and will likely be blacklisted from any uni staffed by Sebs.
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 18 18:19:55
Rugian:

No, no it wouldn't you sad, bitter misanthrope.

Forwyn:
Yes. I meant academic career also. If anything, given my early career was primarily academic, I give greater weighting to it. I know plenty of people who ended up having stellar academic careers having got their first undergrad degrees at second or third teir unis.

This doesn't set his academic career back hugely. For somewhere like Harvard, there's a hundreds of final round applicants of near equal quality anyone of which rejected might have made the cut on another day of the week. Nobody would say these people who narrowly missed out had suffered a set back.

You are acting like Havard is punishing him for unrelated behaviour, when they just reassessed his character in light of new information.
There will be scores of applicants that tick every box he does who haven't displayed poor judgement. If he had disclosed this in the interview, nobody would think it odd he was passed over in favour of one of those candidates.

As for blacklisting, well he's the dummy that decided to publicise the issue! Kinda proves my point! He'd rather seek fame as a edgelord martyr dressing up as a free speech crusader and jeopardise his academic career. This is exactly the kind of facile, fame seeking un-seriousness you'd pass over.

As for starting a year later - don't you guys ever take gap years?
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 18 18:22:51
Hmm. Conspicuous self harming display in order to attract attention and demonstrate a characteristic... now *that's* virtue signalling.

Sam Adams
Member
Tue Jun 18 18:45:33
"and there will be equally brilliant candidates who haven't."

This is demonstrably false since harvard reduces admissions standards massively for people who are non white/asian.

Way to fail again seb.
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Jun 18 18:48:57
"This is exactly the kind of facile, fame seeking un-seriousness you'd pass over. "

Yet harvard admitted parkland anti gun whiner and childish retard david hogg, who also had massively lower intelligence.

Seb can you stop being wrong?
Dukhat
Member
Wed Jun 19 01:30:32
Harvard has a zero-tolerance policy for these things so once the cat was out of the bag, the kid was toast. His pathetic attempt to mitigate it failed because rules are rules.

One kid a year under me got all of his offers rescinded after he made some racist rant in his AIM profile (remember that shit?) after he had gotten mugged by some Mexicans.

Zero. Tolerance. This was about a decade ago too.
Seb
Member
Wed Jun 19 02:26:06
Sam:

Logical fail.

You are arguing that other candidates will have been let through on lower standards. That does not mean, therefore, there are no other candidates who display all the characteristics of this chap but who have not displayed his idiocy. If we are to entertain your proposition for a second, if it were true, all it world mean is that there are worse candidates who Havard also ought to be rejecting.

Arguing that affirmative action means he should be allowed in is effectively arguing that being an immature racist edgelord is a protected class. Sam, are you looking for a safe space? I can't help noticing that immature racist edgelord is your demographic.

Seb
Member
Wed Jun 19 02:29:20
Lol. Yes, political activism by David High is exactly like writing the N word In block capitals.

Sam, if you want to have your bullshit taken seriously you actually need to get serious.
Sam Adams
Member
Wed Jun 19 10:02:26
The point is seb, that an otherwise qualified candidate with a minor black mark is rejected when much much less qualified folks(a huge black mark for a supposedly elite school) are accepted.

It obviously shows that harvard is selecting based on politics rather than academics.
Sam Adams
Member
Wed Jun 19 10:03:26
"is a protected class."

Ahhh yes. Not everyone is equal to a liberal.
Seb
Member
Thu Jun 20 08:52:29
Sam:

Um, no, that's not the point. In both cases, by your argument, there's likely a better candidate who by your criteria deserve it more than either.

Anyway, if you don't like the policy, find your own elite private university and set it's admission policies.

And not everyone is equal according to *you* Sam. Are you a liberal?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jun 20 10:25:50
With the exception of some minority groups, when taking into account the admission SAT scores required to a place like Harvard the benefits vanish compared to any other university.

i.e if you have the ability to reach those grades, then it doesn’t matter what school you went to. Harvard has just been a place that through tradition and branding been a center where high ability people students and teacher go to, because they are fags and care about these things. Who is anyone to judge really? Everyone is gay for something. Ultimatly this isn’t the direction the worldand less so in the tech industry, where the letter paper of a degree matters. Or that it is from an accredited institute, or that you have one at all.
Sam Adams
Member
Thu Jun 20 10:40:21
"Anyway, if you don't like the policy, find your own elite private university and set it's admission policies. "

Im sure you would have given the same advice to a negro 80 years ago?

Lol dumbass.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jun 21 09:49:08
^Or to a woman today.
Seb
Member
Fri Jun 21 12:02:05
Sam/Nim:

They aren't discriminating in this case. The action they are marking him down on is a particular and specific action, not a fundamental characteristic he cannot change.
Seb
Member
Fri Jun 21 12:03:19
"rejecting a candidate for publishing racist diatribes is like racial segregation." -Sam Adams
Rugian
Member
Fri Jun 21 12:42:37
Wait, I'm a misanthrope? How the fuck did you get to that conclusion?
chuck
Member
Fri Jun 21 13:03:17
Rugian, et al. "Utopia Talk." Utopia Talk. Published August 16, 2008 - June 21, 2019. Retrieved June 21, 2019. http://www.utopiaforums.com/.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jun 21 13:36:20
Seb
You are assuming that it isn’t.
Seb
Member
Fri Jun 21 13:41:20
Nim:

The offered a place - then rescinded the offer when they found out about the post, so there's very strong evidence that his rejection has nothing at all to do with his race, sex or any other intrinsic characteristic.

Rather, it is what his racist language said to him about his character, and character is a key aspect of their selection.
Sam Adams
Member
Fri Jun 21 13:42:20
"They aren't discriminating in this case."

Of course they are. They are merely discriminating in a way you approve of.
Seb
Member
Fri Jun 21 13:50:10
Sam, you probably think Thomas Mair being imprisoned was a blatant case of political oppression.
Seb
Member
Fri Jun 21 13:50:23
"Bullets are a form of speech" - Sam Adams.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jun 21 13:53:01
Seb
You are assuming his behavior isn’t an intrinsic characteristic.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jun 21 13:55:27
Also I know you are too far gone at this point but, making jokes isn’t ”making a racist statement”, even if the joke is made in poor taste. Context matters my nigga.
hood
Member
Fri Jun 21 14:01:51
Jokes can also be racist.
Seb
Member
Fri Jun 21 14:04:27
Nim:

If behaviour is inherent and intrinsic, then the committees decision is also behaviour, inherent and intrinsic, and it would be discrimination to try and reverse it.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jun 21 14:05:18
Indeed they can, but it doesn’t make them ”racist statements”. Words have meaning.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jun 21 14:10:41
Seb
I don’t care what Harvard does, I already explained my thoughts on that. I was responding to you. Yes behavior is intrinsic, even racist behavior we both would agree is racist, could be intrinsic. So the principle that you may not discriminate based on intrinsic characterstics will not hold. I am trying to help you.
Seb
Member
Fri Jun 21 14:12:07
Nim:

I refer you to the second paragraph of my post Tue Jun 18 17:12:39.

They are a private organisation. They don't need to prove beyond all reasonable doubt. If in the balance of probabilities they think he's going to just be a pain in the ass and joke around issues they take very seriously, they can choose not to give him an offer.

A strong argument can be made that making racist jokes is irresponsible, even if not a crime, because it normalises corrosive behaviours and norms and provides the kind of long grass "ironic not ironic" actual racists love to exploit.


You might not like that argument or agree with it - really doesn't matter. It's clearly not behaviour they tolerate, and great grades don't *entitle* you to a university position, that's just the basic pre-requiste. It's ludicrous to be arguing this.
hood
Member
Fri Jun 21 14:12:55
If a joke goes beyond the barrier of joke to racist and falls into the racist side, how is it not a racist statement?
Seb
Member
Fri Jun 21 14:13:49
I'm sorry if you didn't pick this up earlier, it was buried in a response to Forwyn but but I honestly can't be fucked to write a whole paragraph to accurately describe all possible interpretations of the idiot edgelord.
Sam Adams
Member
Fri Jun 21 14:15:58
"A strong argument can be made that making racist jokes is irresponsible, even if not a crime, because it normalises corrosive behaviours and norms and provides the kind of long grass "ironic not ironic" actual racists love to exploit. "

And this is why the uk is permanently retarded.
Seb
Member
Fri Jun 21 14:16:56
Hood:

That second post was a continuation to Nim btw.

Agree with you wholeheartedly.


I predict you are doing to get some tedious bullshit from someone now about how black Americans have appropriated the word nigger and bldg blah blah.

Good luck!

Seb
Member
Fri Jun 21 14:17:33
Sam:

It's also why this chap isn't going to university.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jun 21 14:20:06
Seb
I still do not care what Harvard did. He can go to a non SJW university and have a stellar academic career. I mean why would he want to go there to begin with? Is what I personally think. I. Don’t. Care. I am talking and responding to you.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jun 21 14:23:05
Hood
”If a joke goes beyond the barrier of joke to racist and falls into the racist side, how is it not a racist statement?”

You believe it has been established the the immature jokes of a 16 year old were in fact racist statements? I have seen a couple of pictures, if you are ready to make that judgement you are a better than me ;-)
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jun 21 14:25:53
Seb
This is only a line of discussion steming from ”go start your own university”. I support you on the freedom of individuals to organize as they please, I just want you to stay consistent and say this to other people whome you believe are selected against based on their intrinsic characterstics.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jun 21 14:38:53
Harvard discriminates based on behavior, which is an intrinsic characterstics, assumed by people who deny the entire field of behavioral genetics (? I assume or are just unaware ?) to be able to change like switching a flip. I mean if that was the case fat people wouldn’t need to staple their fucking stomach to lose weight. Would they? How come no one is exploring if this behavior was the result of oppression? He is a jew, perhaps the thousands of years of anti-semitism made him do this? He could be a victim and you fucks are dog piling him. No takers? Trenches are cozy :)
hood
Member
Fri Jun 21 14:47:14
Nim, I am arguing the concept. I haven't bothered to look at this kids comments, as I don't really give many shits. Yet racist jokes can be more than just jokes, and it seems illogical to not consider a joke that crosses the line a racist statement. Did his? Dunno. Don't care.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jun 21 14:51:16
I can totally see a coping narrative for his jokes. The pressure of thousands of years of oppression passed on from generation to generation, throw in some Holocaust and I am home. I mean give me a year, I could probably have it published in some ”respected” journal. Had this guy had me as his PR person, all the roles would be reversed and my nigga would be going to Harvard. Lost opportunity...
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jun 21 15:04:12
Hood
Of course racist jokes as a concept is a thing. It is even a thing that actual racist people make racist jokes that you and I wouldn’t find funny, unless the person saying it is known to us as not racist, decent etc.

This is however a specific event. The context according to the author is ”joking”, he was 16, he is a jew. Racist statement, it is not and this is the word seb used, i.e the words were assertions. I have on numerous occasions called Asgard a filthy jew, between me and him it was understood as a joke, but apparently it may have been a opinion/statement about the hygien of jews.
Seb
Member
Fri Jun 21 15:30:27
Nim:

I think it's very safe to say writing the N word repeatedly isn't an intrinsic quality.

If you think you can make the case that he couldn't help but write what he wrote because his genes, you've really failed to understand genetics.


Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 22 06:35:26
It is of course a higher level abstraction than the usage of specific words. We can use the simple use case of having tourrets syndrome. Being ”edgy” as you called it, funny or norm breaking in social settings, it is a type of behavior. The words that would illicit such response is of course contextual to a time in history and place in culture.

^ confusing the genetic variable and the cultural variable as you just did, that is faiiling to understand genetics ;-)
Seb
Member
Sun Jun 23 04:06:07
Nim:

You assert then he has a genetic basis for involuntary production of, well, whatever you want to call his written product? They this is something intrinsic and which he had no control over?

Oh dear.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Jun 23 06:43:17
Seb
I guess if we want to take a short cut to the end of this discussion, which I am all for, what I am saying is that you are uneducated on the topic. You have built a world view on false assumptions and when confronted with these false assumptions you project these inadequacies via "so you are saying -insert stupid/false thing-". This is what I am saying, you can quote me on it :)



Seb
Member
Sun Jun 23 06:52:20
Nim

Thank you for your efforts to try and educate me on something that you don't understand on the basis of something I said that you misunderstood. As you can see, I appreciate it greatly.
Seb
Member
Sun Jun 23 07:01:36
To go back to the kid, if I was him and wanted to get into Harvard; then the obvious thing to do would be to take a year out, so something to obviously address the issue and write an application letter the next year that focused heavily on the issue.

I'm sure he will do fine for himself. Going to a top university is more a symptom than cause of many people's success.


Sam Adams
Member
Mon Jun 24 09:25:20
Seb you ethiopian, its about harvards double standard, not about the kids future.
Seb
Member
Mon Jun 24 17:29:59
Sam:

What double standard? It's clear to everyone that they do not and have never selected purely on academic quals.
Sam Adams
Member
Mon Jun 24 19:04:48
"It's clear to everyone that they do not and have never selected purely on academic quals."

Indeed. Black or red skin is worth 40 percentile points or so.
Dukhat
Member
Mon Jun 24 20:16:17
It is highly unlikely this kid will make it into a private school other than some conservative echo chamber like liberty university. He'll go to like Berkeley and that'll be that.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jun 25 01:13:47
Glenn Loury has an entire piece on it. If you are are black and top 20% you have over 50% chance to get in to Harvard, if you are Asian and top 20% you only have 5% chance.

What admission process explains this? Ultimatly we will see what the American judiciary has to say about it. Previously seb has said he thinks positive discrimination is ”extreme” and he is surpised it was legal, this was in Netherlands (and in Sweden). Just, does he doubt that this is going on in other progressive strongholds, or that many people see this as a legitimate strategy?
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 25 01:46:47
Nim:

Very different to have an overt. Policy that says you will only hire women for 18 months.

Universities look for a number of qualities because performance in school tests don't really reflect the qualities they are looking for with high precision.

In extreme cases someone who gets 90% and 95% in a school test are likely indistinguishable in intelligence. The interesting questions about them aren't assessed. A thing they put a huge premium on (as all universities do) is self motivation and ability for individual study.

Your example hinges on conditional probability. Havard wants you to have in the top 20% of grades to be considered. The fact that 5% of Asians who meet this are deemed to have the other qualities whereas they accept half of the African Americans who make the academic cut could, for example, be entirely explained by the fact that many Asian families put a high premium on learning so many Asian kids while good test performers maybe don't come across particularly strongly as self motivated, and many are encouraged to apply for Havard.

Meanwhile, of the fewer African Americans that make the cut, a higher proportion display those qualities, and only these more exceptional candidates are encouraged to apply in the first place.

Basically, everyone whining about academic grades is missing the point about what universities select for. They aren't hugely impressed at the difference between 90% and 95% so much as the demonstrated ability to think.
Forwyn
Member
Tue Jun 25 02:37:48
So a driven Asian is less valuable than a driven African? lulz
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 25 03:27:22
Forwyn:

No.
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 25 03:27:42
Another person who doesn't understand conditional probability.
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 25 03:50:14
Put it this way: as an admissions panel member, you are confronted with two candidates:

Both have top academic marks. One comes from a solidly professional class background. He's been to the top schools, he's had private tutoring, got a summer of work experience at a good company that his father works at as VP.

Another comes from a solidly working class background. He went to the local state school. He spent the summer volunteering at a community centre.

The second one the panel can be far more confident is a self motivated overachiever because hey have bigger hurdles to overcome which allows them to demonstrate it in a way that's much harder when being internally driven to succeed can't readily be distinguished from being driven by your parents along a clearly signposted road to university. Even if it turns out they actually do happen to have identical aptitudes and drive.

If black candidates to Harvard in the top 20% test scores are far more likely to look like the second candidate, they are going to get higher acceptance rates; even if they are more unlikely to get to the point of successful application


So generally, yes, kids from well of backgrounds and good schools need to *massively* put the effort in to distinguish themselves if they want to go to the best universities. Top schools tell you this. Mine certainly did. "Oh great, you've been on a trip to CERN and attended a young physicists conference and summer school in particle physics... but every kid at every independent school applying to the top unis will have done that, and the admissions tutors know that candidates from state schools won't have done that because it's not an option for them.".

These things become basic hygine standards in the arms race for professional classes to avoid downward social mobility. Conversely, social media posts with juvenile racist or merely edgy jokes become an easy thing to mark a candidate down on: "Well, even if it was a joke, it was bad taste and perhaps shows a lack of the kind of mayure self-reflection and thoughtfulness we are looking for, and look here Bob who did everything Alex did without the troubling social media posts."

University admission is privilege not a right or entitlement. Such privileges should be bestowed equitably, but this kind of "waaaa I got better grades" really just displays exactly the kind of characteristics that demonstrate why the university probably made the right choice.

Forwyn
Member
Tue Jun 25 09:53:57
That's a lot of word vomit to say that a driven Asian student is less valuable than a driven black student, because he comes from a driven culture, and is being examined under a different lens, based on socioeconomic indicators, including race.
jergul
large member
Tue Jun 25 10:38:57
Or the institution believes it has a civic duty to promote a greater, more equal union.
jergul
large member
Tue Jun 25 10:44:37
Seb
Uni admission here is an entitlement.
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 25 11:39:04
Forwyn:

No it isn't. If candidate B has objectively climbed higher to reach the same point they are going to have more concrete evidence of their character.
You have to make less assumptions.

A soldier in peace time might be as brilliant and brave as someone who won the Victoria Cross in ww2. But he will never be able to prove so decisively his bravery. But equally has no risk of being one of the many that just got shot.

Jergul:
To whichever one you want? Probably explains why so many Norwegians use their entitlement to study at Oxbridge :-p

Seb
Member
Tue Jun 25 11:44:33
To a selector, I'm saying that people from a more impoverished and difficult family background who exceede can normally better show they did so through dint of their tennacity.

So it's easier for an assessor to have greater confidence. By contrast, someone who has a stable background, attends a good school etc will need to work much harder to demonstrate they have the skills.

You misunderstand what universities value. It's the character the achievements evidence, not the achievements themselves, which are merely evidence. They don't care you went to particle physics masterclass, they care about what doing that says about you - what characteristics that evidences - and how it differentiates you from others.


Seb
Member
Tue Jun 25 11:47:02
Two athletes run a race and cross the lone at the same time.

One is missing a leg.

Which is more impressive? And is it really unfair on the two legged man? "I could have run in the am same time if I had one leg only!" Well then... Why didn't you run faster?


Seb
Member
Tue Jun 25 11:47:35
It's unfair - if only I had my leg crushed in an accident. This is discrimination!
hood
Member
Tue Jun 25 11:49:58
And here Seb racistly implies that being black equates to being impoverished and having a difficult childhood. That it's equivalent to being one legged.
Forwyn
Member
Tue Jun 25 11:53:27
And that Asians are implicitly more hard-working and driven.

All you need to know to torpedo Seb's argument is that a rich black kid with the same scores as a lower-middle class Asian kid will get in first because of diversity standards.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jun 25 12:43:46
This is gold, considering my first post.

"With the exception of some minority groups, when taking into account the admission SAT scores required to a place like Harvard the benefits vanish compared to any other university."

Why? Precisely because of this racism of low expectations seb has.
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 25 13:10:28
Hood:

Nope. I did not. You are using the word equates wrong or have misunderstood what was written, or likely both.

Forwyn:
You have no basis to say that unless you have a data set that compares Asians and African Americans with the same family incomes.

Otherwise your are applying stats from a population (African and Asian Americans that apply to Havard) which may have entirely different income distributions and assuming that if you downselect from those populations that the success rates remain the same. This would imply that rich and poor Asian and African Americans are equally likely to succeed in application.

My hypothesis is that if you take any individual ethnic group, you will likely see that of those that have the academic qualifications and which apply to Harvard, the ones from a poorer background will likely have a higher acceptance rate in all cases.

Nim:

Racism of low expectations implies that you assume a kid from a poor background will achieve less and therefore expect less. I'm saying that a kid from poor background who achieves the same will likely have had greater specific and distinct opportunities to concretely demonstrate skills that others from well of backgrounds may have, but will have been less able to concretely evidence unless they go above and beyond the norm for their demographic.

This is a very different thing from what is commonly understood by racism of low expectations which might mean, for example, taking significantly lower grades on the basis you don't think it's possible for the candidate to achieve them.

Once again, in your haste to construct a straw man you have failed to give full consideration to the argument in front of you. You must try harder.

Sam Adams
Member
Tue Jun 25 15:02:32
"Both have top academic marks."

This is demonstrably false. Harvard admits their preferred people with often only just above average scores. Its not 90 verse 95. Its 60 verse 98. And that is a huge difference.
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Jun 25 15:04:00
"Which is more impressive? "

Which do you want rescuing you when you are injured and your building is on fire?
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 25 15:16:40
Sam:

"Harvard admits their preferred people with often only just above average scores."

Same difference. That just means they don't think academic performance over 60% is not a good criteria to select on. And to be fair, your UG degrees are laughably unspecialised so it's not like the UK where if you apply to study physics and have a crap physics score you are likely really ill suited.



If they have the same physical performance, why do I care?
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Jun 25 15:57:52
You sure do bend over backwards to try and justify your preferred brand of discrimination, seb. 60=98 now?
Sam Adams
Member
Tue Jun 25 16:04:38
In the real non-sjw world, there is an extreme difference between 60 and 98. 60 percentile is barely literate scum.
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