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Utopia Talk / Politics / Turkey buys superior Russian weapons
LazyCommunist
Member
Sat Jul 13 08:42:48
Deal maker Trump was unable to make a deal?

http://www...ipment-to-turkey-idUSKCN1U806B

Russia delivers more air defense equipment to Turkey

3 Min Read

ISTANBUL (Reuters) - Russia flew a fresh shipment of advanced air defense equipment to Turkey on Saturday, the Turkish Defence Ministry said, continuing to implement a deal that is likely to trigger U.S. sanctions against a NATO ally.



The ministry said a fourth Russian cargo plane landed at the Murted air base near the Turkish capital Ankara, a day after three huge Russian air force AN-124 planes offloaded equipment at the base.

Washington has tried for months to prevent the deal, arguing that the Russian S-400 air defense system is incompatible with NATO systems. It also says that if the S-400s are deployed near U.S. F-35 jets, which Turkey is buying and helping to produce, they would undermine the stealth fighter planes’ defenses.

U.S. officials had warned that Turkey would be thrown off the F-35 program if it took delivery of the S-400s, and would also face sanctions under U.S. legislation seeking to prevent countries from buying military equipment from Russia.

Turkey says S-400 is a strategic defense requirement, above all to secure its southern borders with Syria and Iraq. It says that when it made the deal with Russia for the S-400s, the United States and Europe had not presented a viable alternative.

The dispute between the countries with the two largest armies in NATO marks a deep division in the Western military alliance, which was forged after World War Two to counter Moscow’s military power.

Reaction from Washington was limited on Friday, with acting Defense Secretary Mark Esper saying the U.S. stance had not changed. Esper later spoke with Turkish counterpart Hulusi Akar.

“Minister Akar told his U.S. counterpart that Turkey remains under a serious air and missile threat and that purchase of S-400 defense systems was not an option but rather a necessity,” a Turkish Defence Ministry statement said.

Investors in Turkey have been unsettled by the deal and the prospect of sanctions, a year after a dispute with Washington over the trial of a U.S. pastor in Turkey contributed to a financial crisis which drove Turkey’s economy into recession.

The Turkish lira weakened as much as 1.6% to 5.7780 against the dollar on Friday, before recovering somewhat.

Russia’s TASS news agency quoted an unnamed military-diplomatic source on Friday as saying that a further delivery – of 120 guided missiles – would be carried out by ship at the end of the summer.



Rugian
Member
Sat Jul 13 10:10:19
Turkey Is Heading for Economic Collapse, Ashmore Says

By Selcuk Gokoluk

July 9, 2019, 7:00 PM EDT Updated on July 10, 2019, 8:56 AM EDT

President Recep Tayyip Erdogan risks pushing Turkey’s economy into an economic collapse similar to those seen in Latin America under populist regimes, according to Ashmore Group Plc.

While more diversified than Venezuela’s oil-dependent economy, Turkey is currently on a very similar path of policy missteps that are likely to lead to ruin, the $85 billion emerging-market asset manager said.

Capital controls, nationalization and other policies designed to prevent the private sector from protecting its property as the macroeconomic environment deteriorates are the next “logical policy steps” that will follow in Turkey, Jan Dehn, the London-based head of research at Ashmore, said by email. His comments, initially in a research report Tuesday, came after Erdogan rattled markets by dismissing central bank Governor Murat Cetinkaya early Saturday.

“The problem is that U-turning back to good policies has very big upfront political costs,” said Dehn, who caught the bottom of the market on the Russian ruble in December 2014 and turned bullish on emerging markets in October 2015, months before a two-year rally began. “The longer he delays the bigger the cost, which is why politicians who go down the heterodox route rarely change tack and they almost always end in crisis.”

Turkish officials have repeatedly denied any plans to impose capital controls and said they would adhere to free-market principles. Erdogan said there is need for a “complete revision” at the country’s central bank, blaming Cetinkaya for a failure to communicate with markets and an inability to inspire confidence.

The lira weakened 0.3% today against the dollar, extending this year’s depreciation to 8%, the second-biggest drop in emerging markets.

http://www...e-economic-calamity-by-ashmore

Seems like a good time for Erdogan to be inviting sanctions.
jergul
large member
Sat Jul 13 11:31:53
Ruggy
You should be able to appreciate that executive rule by decree in foreign interactions adds some credence to foreigners thinking there is no inherent difference between the president and any crackpot dictator you might shake a stick at.

Your domestic affair being your own, all we see is a dictator dictating *stuff*

Its sort of why we like the rule of law.

The Children
Member
Sat Jul 13 11:44:23
aye, those russian s400s wuld make mincemeat out of thoise flyin lemons u call f35s.

Rugian
Member
Sat Jul 13 11:52:44
jergul,

Unilateral action by the executive branch is both lawful and a practical necessity in conducting foreign interactions. As I see it, your line of thinking here is no different from the domestic opposition's opinion that the powers of the president are no longer exercisable by the office by virtue of the fact that Orange Man Bad.

On a related note though, thanks for finally backing up my 2011 assertion that Obama's unilateral decision to overthrow the Libyan government was wrong. You'll recall that that act not only involved bypassing our legislature's oversight role but also managed to actively violate the letter of the law.

Of course, back then the Euros on this board were backing Obama because "honoring the call of allies supercedes American domestic law" or something like that. So maybe the REAL takeaway here is "executive rule by decree in foreign interactions adds some credence to foreigners thinking there is no inherent difference between the president and any crackpot dictator you might shake a stick at...unless your wannabe European overlords sign off on it."

The point is, your arguments have no basis in consistency.
jergul
large member
Sat Jul 13 12:14:33
Ruggy
From your perspective? Perhaps. But don't expect to be respected for it.

Finally backing? I was pointman on Libya.
jergul
large member
Sat Jul 13 12:15:23
So your point falls on its own inconsistency. I have always argued Westphallian principles in this forum.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jul 13 12:16:54
jergul
large member Sat Jul 13 12:14:33
Ruggy
From your perspective? Perhaps. But don't expect to be respected for it.

By Europeans? Fair enough. It's almost like I want my president to be taking actions in the best interest of Americans, not Germans.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jul 13 12:18:09
Seriously. When did you guys get the idea that American foreign and domestic policy require Europe's sanction? How insane.
jergul
large member
Sat Jul 13 12:19:11
Yet you persist in not wanting us to view the US as a dictatorship for all practical purposes abroad.

If you walk like a tyrant, talk like a tyrant and act like a tyrant, then you are a tyrant.

Trump is not the one stopping Trump from acting like that domestically btw.
jergul
large member
Sat Jul 13 12:21:44
The point is that Russia and China would be better partners.

I think we should take the security cost as Trump suggests, the decouple our defences from outside influences.

It would mean expanding French nuclear forces. But sure, why not?
Paramount
Member
Sat Jul 13 15:30:39
Turkey has lost confidence in the United States. It no longer trust the US. And rightly so. Does anyone trust the US these days?. So Turkey choses to buy from Russia instead.

The US is losing influence and a strategic partner. Russia is strengthening its influence and may gain a strategic partner.

I guess the US must be tired of winning by now, as Trump promised.
jergul
large member
Sat Jul 13 15:34:15
Para
The fair answer might be that there remains trust in US institutions. But if international obligations can be overruled with the flourish of a felt pen, then who is to say what the future bodes?

I think we should do what Trump says and up defence spending to a point were military independency is an option.
Hrothgar
Member
Sun Jul 14 00:00:39
The "international obligations can be overruled with the flourish of a felt pen" is the single largest disaster to United States world influence of my life time. Which is saying something considering the debacle of the Iraq war II.

If the US congress/Senate have any sense whatsoever they need to see that this US presidential privileged has got to be reigned in.
Forwyn
Member
Sun Jul 14 01:18:47
Turkish goons assaulted US citizens in the US capital and weren't immediately killed or arrested by local forces, including the National Guard.

They should have plenty of trust in us continuing to be loyal shills.
jergul
large member
Sun Jul 14 05:56:57
Hrothgar
If memory serves: The privilege stems from legislature in the mid 1970s. It has nothing to do with the constitution?
Rugian
Member
Sun Jul 14 09:09:01
Hrothgar,

Congressional abdication of its oversight abilities goes far beyond foreign affairs. There's a school of thought that its most important duty - to make laws - has largely been effectively farmed out to executive agencies and the courts over the years. There's definitely a need for rebalancing which should take place in the context of a larger debate of the federal government's powers in our constitutional system.
jergul
large member
Sun Jul 14 09:12:20
Ruggy
Its not constitutional oversight in the case I mention. It is a law passed by Congress gone awry.

Voiding the law would correct the imbalance in foreign affairs.

You can have your constitutional assemblies to deal with other things if you like, but that is a different issue.
Rugian
Member
Sun Jul 14 09:14:11
jergul,

Never before have I heard of a dictator who respects the rulings of courts and the legislature, who fails to get his policy measures ratified by Congress, who allows the bulk of his executive actions to be blocked by lowly district court judges (who are ironically overstepping their own authority with their unprecedented use of nationwide injunctions), who lets state government controlled by his rivals to attack his administration and set up policies in opposition to his own, who allows the opposition press to relentlessly attack and criticize him and make up blatant lies about him.

Perhaps tone it down with the hyperbole. Being arbitrary and anti-European is not the same thing as being a dictator.
Rugian
Member
Sun Jul 14 09:18:54
jergul,

You may be the first person I've ever heard claim that post-Nixonian legislation is the origin of the office of the president holding excessive powers in our system of checks and balances. Voiding the law would restore the pre-1976 status quo, when the president's theoretical powers to declare a national emergency were basically unlimited.
jergul
large member
Sun Jul 14 09:38:48
Ruggy
My point is that this is a legislative issue, not a constitutional one.

Yhe National Emergencies Act can more easily be ammended, than consitutional assemblies brought to fruitation.
jergul
large member
Sun Jul 14 09:43:58
Ruggy
You are being obtuse. I was quite clear on his tyrrany applying to actions abroad - where he neither respects the laws, courts, rulings, or arbitrations with actual jurisdiction there.

Its tyranny by the flourish of a felt pen.

Everyone is starting to take a very real dislike to the practice, and it can easily cause irreparable harm.
Rugian
Member
Sun Jul 14 12:03:55
jergul,

And my point is that there is no such thing as "acting like a dictator" in regards to foreign policy.

The issue is a constitutional one. Of course, Congress retains the ultimate ability to modify or reverse changes in tariff policy as it sees fit. If the will was there, it would have already done so.

The problem is that Congress long ago determined that it would be way easier to delegate its tariff powers to the bureaucracy than it would to continue exercising them itself. To borrow a phrase from Brexit, it's easier to be a rule taker than a rule maker.

To demonstrate the extent of this abdication, it's not just the National Emergency Act that you'd have to modify; it's a whole range of legislation and precedents that have given the president his current powers over the years. Trump is not lacking for legal options when it comes to punishing the EU and China for their gross trade abuses.
jergul
large member
Sun Jul 14 13:12:39
Ruggy
There is indeed such a thing, though I get why you dislike the terminology. Trump dictates. Or tries to. In contravention with established rules and laws.

The problem with getting a supermajority to reverse executive orders is known.

It is simpler to simply have a majority to change the legal framework.

But again, I am just trying to explain to you why anti-americanism is a thing.

You are acting like asshats.
jergul
large member
Sun Jul 14 13:12:58
And the problem is the felt pen.
Rugian
Member
Sun Jul 14 13:38:39
jergul,

Trump is using the same executive powers used by every one of his predecessors in the modern era. Your problem isn't that he's using them, it's that he's using them in the pursuit of policies you don't approve of.

I acknowledge your desire to get rid of the presidential veto. I don't think any other response is warranted on that front.

European "anti-Americanism" just essentially boils down to Europeans having a fit every time America doesn't cater its policies in a way that are favorable to them. I recall a pre-9/11 poll that found that Europeans considered GWB to be a unilateralist who was little better than Putin because of his opposition to Kyoto and the anti-missile pact, while they simultaneously approved of him because he supported free trade and keeping troops in Kosovo. It's an established modus operandi.

At the end of the day, your attitudes towards America are just reflective of how well the current American administration is fulfilling your own self-interests. And fair enough. The thing is, we have no reason to care about your interests.
Rugian
Member
Sun Jul 14 13:40:43
For the record I am very sorry we decided to elect a president who would actually take action against EU and Chinese trade abuses. I realize that doing so put us in "contravention with established rules and laws" as your understanding of the post-war world order has it.
jergul
large member
Sun Jul 14 15:07:55
Ruggy
You are misreading what I am saying. I simply want you to abide by the Supremacy clause of your constitution.

Congress should have no laws that allow the president to break the terms of ratified treaties.

I am not a great fan of the WTO, but you have agreed to those rules and are bound by your constitution to follow them.
Rugian
Member
Sun Jul 14 15:24:36
jergul,

I believe the WTO's dispute resolution abilities are scheduled to be effectively nullified come December. So you can stop worrying about that soon.
Rugian
Member
Sun Jul 14 15:38:32
While we're on the subject, can I just say that it's amazing at how quickly the international left has switched gears in regards to corporate bodies that are primarily designed to benefit a small oligarchy of global elites. Twenty five years ago, it was the left that was spearheading the opposition to the WTO, NAFTA, and the EU; now they're the biggest champions of those organizations.

Never let it be said that fools are incapable of showing flexibility when it comes to receiving updates to their marching orders.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Jul 14 16:31:50
It's about a wierd as the doubling of Republicans who view Russia as an ally rather than an enemy, and it didn't even take 25 months. Notwithstanding that, we should all be so flexible that we can be reasoned out of bad ideas.
Paramount
Member
Mon Jul 15 00:36:36
”it's amazing at how quickly the international left has switched gears [...]
Twenty five years ago, it was the left that was spearheading the opposition to the WTO, NAFTA, and the EU”

I both Sweden and in Britain, the Left wants to leave the EU. Although, the Swedish Left Party said recently that they are not gonna push this issue now (seeing the chaos that struck the UK after they decided to leave).

I also don’t think that the Left are the biggest champions of the WTO. That would be the capitalists and the liberals, I believe.
jergul
large member
Mon Jul 15 07:26:54
Back on topic.

7 flights of system have been flown in and delivered.
Rugian
Member
Mon Jul 15 07:52:56
Oh good, I'm sure we can easily spend 50+ posts talking about seven units being delivered.
Rugian
Member
Mon Jul 15 07:56:27
Nim,

Republicans in general are still very much anti-Russia in terms of both word and deed. Theres even an ongoing Senate investigation on Russia at the moment. Dont confuse the president and his "hey maybe theres no need to start up Cold War II" mentality with the party.

The only thing the about-face demonstrates is that young people are ridiculously easy to influence. A 20 year old Republican has no heart, etc.
Paramount
Member
Wed Jul 17 08:26:48
Russia is increasing its sphere of influence further and further:

Trump blames Obama as he reluctantly bans F-35 sales to Turkey

Washington (CNN)President Donald Trump says Turkey will be banned from purchasing American F-35 fighter jets after it acquired a Russian air defense system, but made no mention of sanctions that the US is legally required to impose in response, worrying lawmakers on both sides of the aisle.

Trump misrepresented the developments that led Turkey to purchase the Russian system, blaming the Obama administration for the situation and sympathizing with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan for the "very tough situation that they've been forced in."

"Because they have a system of missiles that's made in Russia, they're now prohibited from buying over 100 planes," Trump said of Turkey during in a Cabinet meeting. "I would say that (F-35 manufacturer) Lockheed isn't exactly happy. That's a lot of jobs. And frankly I've always had a very good relationship" with Erdogan, Trump added.

http://edi...p-turkey-s400-sales/index.html
The Children
Member
Wed Jul 17 12:40:14
it is unstoppable. the sale is done, final.

all this american barkin is just them trryin 2 cover the fact that they like justin trudeau got ignored and lost face over it.

f35 is a lemon
that is a reality
Sam Adams
Member
Wed Jul 17 12:49:00
F35 once beat the entire chinese air force and then peed on mao.
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