Utopia Talk / Politics / Gun bans prevent mass killings

Sam Adams Member	Thu Jul 18 12:10:22 'Appalling' arson attack on Japanese animation studio kills at least 33 http://www...ills-at-least-33-idUSKCN1UD0AT
kargen Member	Thu Jul 18 12:15:10 Arson attacks leading to mass death in Australia have gone way up since the gun ban there after the Port Arthur massacre.
UP Factcheck Member	Fri Jul 19 04:44:28 Kargen's measure of "way up" is purely subjective. claim: "Arson attacks leading to mass death in Australia have gone way up since the gun ban there after the Port Arthur massacre. " facts: In Australia's record keeping of massacres and mass-murders since 1828, which includes arsons and shooting. Only 6 arsons have been recorded since 1996 (PAM). Since 1996 7 mass shootings have occurred. If we are to use the "kargen scale" technically mass shootings have gone "way up".
kargen Member	Fri Jul 19 11:32:34 From 1828 to 1996 only one mass killing by arson. So one in 168 years compared to seven in 23 years. Mass killing with guns from 1973 to 1996 ten. The 23 years since Port Arthur seven. Overall mass killings in Australia from 1973 to 1996 is 19. Overall mass killings from 1996 to present is 26. Banning guns really helped. Looking at the numbers arson went from one every 168 years to one every 3.2 years. I'm going to stick with my way up comment.
Dukhat Member	Fri Jul 19 11:36:57 To link arsons to gun-laws is pretty fucking stupid. But it turns out there are a tons of right-wing websites advocating that point given a simple google search. Which goes to say, cuckservatives have absolutely no critical thinking skills.
kargen Member	Fri Jul 19 13:05:59 The point is that people intent on causing harm will find a way. Guns are not the problem. Simple as that. People that might have used a gun instead grabbed five gallons of gas and a Bic. Or a knife. Or a small truck... The idiots are the ones that continue to think guns are the problem.
Forwyn Member	Fri Jul 19 13:20:19 Leftists want the conversation to be about guns, and only guns. That's why they simultaneously ignore that blunt weapons kill more than rifles, and conflate suicide deaths (overwhelmingly handguns) with gun violence.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Jul 19 13:26:55 Lol i knew this would trigger cuckhat
UP Factcheck Member	Fri Jul 19 18:24:46 "Overall mass killings in Australia from 1973 to 1996 is 19. Overall mass killings from 1996 to present is 26. " I understand kargen has a tendency to use jergul math. But the subject matter of mass killings is the focus, which hands down has decrease due to the 'gun ban.' The totality of the numbers in regards to kill speaks for itself. You bring up the point of that guns aren't the problem. It appears according to the statistical data of crime statistics in regards to mass killings, guns were the problem. It is understood that people will always find another way, but it is the topic of accessibility to the guns itself and the destruction it can bring in the hands of the few that find ways to mass kill in a setting. You want the breakdown: mass killings as a whole, guns wins hands down compared to the arsons. Therefore, your declaration that "arson have gone way up" is purely subjective. Exactly what are you basing this on? Here is the totality of the effect of the "gun ban" which isn't a ban of guns. A misnomer. http://www...gun-control-australia-updated/
UP Factcheck Member	Fri Jul 19 18:25:08 "Banning guns really helped." Actually it has, according to the aforementioned link.
Forwyn Member	Fri Jul 19 19:54:58 "Homicide in Australia has declined over the last 25 years" Correlation. You see the same decline in the US, from the 8s and 9s per 100k in the seventies in eighties to the fours and fives in the 2000s and 2010s. Abortion rates and unleaded gasoline have probably contributed more to the decline than gun laws.
Dukhat Member	Fri Jul 19 20:08:45 These whataboutism arguments are convincing to noone outside dumb white males. The falls church and Vegas shootings would've been far less deadly had they been arsons or knife attacks or whatever dumbass red herring you want to throw into the bait. Guns are the most uniquely destructive weapon out there and ensure maximum casualties. They should at the very least be regulated at the same level as Australia or Iceland which have very strong gun cultures but also non-crazy owners who respect their tools and only want responsible people to join their communities.
kargen Member	Fri Jul 19 21:48:36 "But the subject matter of mass killings is the focus, which hands down has decrease due to the 'gun ban.' The totality of the numbers in regards to kill speaks for itself." That is all well and good but the real numbers don't back up what you are saying. 26 is a larger number than 19. "Therefore, your declaration that "arson have gone way up" is purely subjective. Exactly what are you basing this on?" The fact that there were more mass killings by arson in Australia over the last 23 years than was in the previous 168 years. Going from one every 168 years to one every 3.2 years is an example of something going way up. "Here is the totality of the effect of the "gun ban" which isn't a ban of guns. A misnomer." I like how you suddenly switched from a discussion on mass murder to one of homicides. " The falls church and Vegas shootings would've been far less deadly had they been arsons or knife attacks or whatever dumbass red herring you want to throw into the bait." You lack imagination. A quick visit to Ryder and then a feed store could have been much more deadly. Easier to get what you need than getting a gun also.
Sam Adams Member	Sun Jul 21 11:53:53 Lol look its cuckhat screeching about big scary guns again.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Sun Jul 21 12:10:17 "Easier to get what you need than getting a gun also." this is a self-evidently stupid argument as people AREN'T choosing that option over guns guns obviously more satisfying and/or simpler to most killers & any knife arguments are extremely stupid... go fatally stab the 3 neighbors on your left, then go fatally shoot the 3 neighbors on your right, which was extremely easier? (assuming even distribution of neighbors)
tumbleweed the wanderer	Sun Jul 21 12:25:01 curing cancer would cause death rates of other things to rise, doesn't mean the cure isn't (theoretically) beneficial to humans (ie. you feel humans living longer is better) there is no question no guns at all would lead to fewer killings*... the question is just whether the benefits of gun bans/restrictions justify doing them (*see every death at a muslim wedding, or the urban youth firing into crowds when disrespected, or the self-defender wanting to avoid a beating)
Wrath of Orion Member	Sun Jul 21 13:16:39 "the question is just whether the benefits of gun bans" Assuming a total ban, a handful of people on this board would probably stroke out, which would be kinda funny.
Forwyn Member	Sun Jul 21 13:20:29 If "stroke out" = "die in gun seizure raids", then yeah. Kinda funny I guess
tumbleweed the wanderer	Sun Jul 21 13:32:06 i'd say we are closer to making it legal to shoot mexicans than a total gun ban (which has never been under serious consideration despite NRA claims) ...i'm not saying either is close... i said closer
Forwyn Member	Sun Jul 21 13:39:08 A gun ban is unnecessary, all you need is Cali style regs where people are getting plainclothes ATF raided for having 30rd mags and facing multiple felonies. Add the ammo checks and you've put such a burden on ownership that only those with thousands and time to blow can participate.
kargen Member	Sun Jul 21 16:58:38 "this is a self-evidently stupid argument as people AREN'T choosing that option over guns" I said easier to get. And it is easier to get. No background check when renting a truck or buying farm supplies. If you don't want to go the bomb route you can just rent the truck. Unfortunately that is becoming more of a thing now than it once was.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Sun Jul 21 17:35:16 so every workplace or school shooter might instead rent a truck & try to catch people in the parking lot? it's self-evidently stupid to cite benefits of other methods in an argument about gun-control other things being easier to acquire, cheaper, or potentially more effective actually proves guns are a factor
kargen Member	Sun Jul 21 17:50:20 Nope, but most schools have a protocol in place for when the fire alarm is pulled or a bomb threat is called in. It usually has the students gathering in one of a couple of locations outside. The argument of gun control is based on the misconception that no guns means no violence. So yeah pointing out a gun isn't the only weapon is a viable argument. Guns are not the problem. The problem is we don't put enough resources into why and instead spend all our time on how. I'm not saying nor have I ever said guns lack convenience as a weapon for mass killings. I'm saying people intent on doing harm will find a way. Getting rid of guns doesn't address the real problems. In peoples fragile little minds it is easier to blame the gun than to look at the real problem. Lets them sleep a bit easier at night having an inanimate object to blame for these types of things. Kind of like parents and others trying to blame some kids suicide on a song he heard on the radio. They convince themselves if we only get rid of that song everything will again be all right. They are weak minded and don't want to confront the real reasons.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Sun Jul 21 17:55:41 "The problem is we don't put enough resources into why" weird, it's your side who does everything possible to prevent study of gun violence anyone claiming every killer would just switch to another method and be just as successful are suggesting guns do not make killing easier, a ridiculous notion (so that's why i get annoyed when that suggestion brought up... even if you are just semi-endorsing it)
kargen Member	Sun Jul 21 18:39:30 anyone claiming no killer... the gun is an inanimate object. An inanimate object is not the problem.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Sun Jul 21 19:01:00 so Walmart should sell land mines & miniguns? anyone killing people w/ them could just use something else & they are inanimate objects R's accept banning certain weapons, where the line is drawn is the only thing up for debate
kargen Member	Sun Jul 21 21:37:00 so Walmart shouldn't sell bed sheets?
Wrath of Orion Member	Mon Jul 22 09:37:21 muh...muh...muh guns
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