Utopia Talk / Politics / Republican anti Christian policies?

kargen Member	Thu Aug 01 17:52:05 Someone in another thread mentioned Republican anti Christian policies. Didn't want to detract from the conversation happening there but am curious, what are those policies?
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Aug 01 18:19:45 disdain for poor immigrants/refugees healthcare for only those who can afford money over environment money over human rights abuses fuck the poor, help the rich
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Aug 01 18:27:29 and for the budget deal R's were excited as it had more military spending D's were excited as it had more non-military spending if i may speak for Jesus, & i think i can... he wouldn't be on the R-side of that
Forwyn Member	Thu Aug 01 18:48:36 I'm curious, was Ron Paul showing disdain for the poor when he espoused free market principles over government interference and you pushed hard for him?
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Aug 01 19:03:45 no... & 'free market principles' is not something i cited above
Forwyn Member	Thu Aug 01 19:44:43 "healthcare for only those who can afford" "fuck the poor, help the rich" Close enough
jergul large member	Thu Aug 01 19:56:07 Separation of church and state. Or wati. That is still a republican policy, right?
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Aug 01 21:19:19 aiding the poor seems a pretty basic Christian concept not sure 'every man for himself' is in the Bible
Dukhat Member	Thu Aug 01 21:22:10 Libertarian is what people are when they are young and hip and cool and think that the world works in an ideal way like in books. Then you go out in the real world and see how much power is kept by idiots like Donald Trump who were born into money and you realize, someone's gotta level the playing field. Europe realized this sooner because they had Aristocrats and so many idiotic wars fought on the whims of elites. Maybe America will get there someday.
obaminated Member	Thu Aug 01 21:22:45 there is a difference between aiding the poor and giving out hand outs that don't actually benefit the poor. the bible literally talks about teaching skills to people to help them, not just handing shit out.
kargen Member	Thu Aug 01 21:31:52 People are always trying to pull the "what would Jesus think" card. Obvious answer is we don't know. I'm pretty sure if he saw someone who was hungry he wouldn't say oh good we have a government program for that, you should apply. tumbleweed your list is pointless. There isn't a disdain for the poor by most Republicans (yes even those in office) just a difference in opinion on how best to help them. Prominent Republicans consistently are giving more to charities than their Democratic counterparts. With healthcare there are clinics all over the country that benefit those who might otherwise not get it. Emergency rooms will not turn you down based on ability to pay. Idiots on the left think money or environment thinking making money can only happen at the cost of the environment. That simply isn't true and even if it were there isn't a lot of championing the environment in the New Testament. Money over human rights same thing applies. Money and treating people right are not exclusive behaviors. fuck the poor is the same as disdain for the poor. You are just padding your silly list. "if i may speak for Jesus, & i think i can... he wouldn't be on the R-side of that" and I think he would be appalled that we the people have to be coerced through taxes to help the poor. If we were truly practicing Christian beliefs and actions there should be no need for the government to help take care of the poor and weak. While Jesus did say turn the other cheek he also did nothing to condemn governments from having a military. He made distinctions often between individuals and governments.
hood Member	Thu Aug 01 21:31:53 Learning skills costs time and money. If you already can't afford basic necessities, howthefuck do you expect to be able to find the time and $ to learn relevant skills? And these days, the college degree that is needed to make employers even bother looking at whether you have relevant skills?
hood Member	Thu Aug 01 21:39:40 "Emergency rooms will not turn you down based on ability to pay." False. They will only accept the indigent in medical emergencies. If this is what you meant, you completely failed to articulate it. "and I think he would be appalled that we the people have to be coerced through taxes to help the poor." Unlikely. What would be appalling is how there are people with so much doing so little, how many people have more than they need and don't help those who need more. "There isn't a disdain for the poor by most Republicans" There is. You're dumb.
obaminated Member	Thu Aug 01 21:44:36 " If you already can't afford basic necessities, howthefuck do you expect to be able to find the time and $ to learn relevant skills?" what basic necessities are you talking about? what isn't already provided by this country that people need more of? how did people survive in 2000 if they couldnt have the basic necessities given in 2019? seriously, what are you talking about?
hood Member	Thu Aug 01 21:50:07 Food, shelter, clothing, ya fucknugget. When housing costs hundreds to thousands of dollars a month and food is hundreds of dollars a week, a $10/hour job isn't getting you very far.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Aug 01 21:58:57 why are people missing the words after 'disdain for the poor'? i originally had it as hating non-white immigrants but decided to be generous (i doubt we'd see the same reaction to white Canadians crossing... unless they were the French ones) i'm pretty sure the Jesus character would not be chanting 'build the wall' & assuming most people were garbage who should be sent back where they came from ------ "With healthcare there are clinics all over the country that benefit those who might otherwise not get it. Emergency rooms will not turn you down based on ability to pay" so why is anyone on medicaid/medicare at all? and if those clinics are being funded by the gov't i bet R's want them less funded --------- it's quite clear R's are willing to harm the environment to make $... this is stupid to imply otherwise (who rolls back environmental protections... is it because the protections are all doing absolutely -nothing-? please) -------- as to "Money over human rights" here's a recent Trump retweet: "Senate failed in three separate attempts to override President Trump's vetoes of resolutions blocking US arms sales to Saudi Arabia, UAE and other countries, falling short of 2/3rds votes needed (45-40, 45-39 and 46-41)." that's our president bragging that even though the majority of the Senate opposes him, they didn't have enough to stop him... (fucked up behavior as usual)... and also that's R's choosing "Money over human rights" -------- "I think he would be appalled that we the people have to be coerced through taxes to help the poor. If we were truly practicing Christian beliefs and actions there should be no need for the government to help take care of the poor and weak. " well we aren't... so maybe he'd be on board
Forwyn Member	Thu Aug 01 22:30:24 "the college degree that is needed" There is literally nothing stopping someone (who is not classed as a dependent) with a $10/hr job from getting a Pell Grant
hood Member	Thu Aug 01 23:02:05 Besides the time and transportation required, purchasing of books, or any tuition not covered by the grant, nothing stopping 'em!
Forwyn Member	Thu Aug 01 23:53:27 There's not some cabal scheming to make sure $10/hr kid fails. He can get a roommate close to the college, and a couple easy scholarships/grants. There are resources available for poors to hit class. It's convenient to pocket the extra from Post-9/11 on top of it, but not necessary. Take it from a former poor.
hood Member	Fri Aug 02 00:37:34 To quote Josh Todd, "young and dumb and full of cum", this forwyn is.
kargen Member	Fri Aug 02 01:50:59 "Unlikely. What would be appalling is how there are people with so much doing so little, how many people have more than they need and don't help those who need more." Basically my point. The government shouldn't have to be doing this with the wealth we have in this country. "it's quite clear R's are willing to harm the environment to make $..." That isn't a party issue. Both parties have plenty of people willing to take shortcuts by fucking the environment and other things to make a dollar. You are coming off as someone who believes all the Democrat millionaires made their money selling lemonade they made by hand from their own lemon trees. And if you are talking about some of the "environmental protections" President Obama put in place those were for the most part asinine.
Dukhat Member	Fri Aug 02 02:00:35 False Equivalency - Check. Blame Government - Check. Lack of Specifics - Check. Typical Republican.
kargen Member	Fri Aug 02 02:02:14 Hood there are a lot of career paths a person can take that don't require an expensive degree. As example there is a shortage of welders right now. Companies will pay for your certification if you promise to work for them for a set amount of time. They pay very well because they don't want you leaving when your required time is up. Plenty of other opportunities like that. Also a government program that will pay for all your schooling if you major in cyber security and are willing to work for the government for four years. Sure it is a government program and includes a time working for the government but after that time is up you are set whether you want to remain employed by the government or move on. Get off the coasts and housing is affordable in most places. Also a lot of affordable colleges scattered all across the country and many of those have grants and scholarships available that go unclaimed. Construction work pays well and you train on the job. I worked summers with a crew that put in water, sewer and gas lines in small towns in Oklahoma and the Texas panhandle. It paid well enough just doing shovel work that I could pay for college and everything else I needed during school with only a part time job. Hell one year I was able to do it with work study through the school. That was easy. A good number of people waste their college education and would be better off having never gone.
Forwyn Member	Fri Aug 02 02:02:48 Yes, pretending that poor kids can't overcome hurdles is indeed indicative of young, dumb leftist kool-aid drinking. Maybe it's tough when you're an ignorant 100IQ poor who thinks only in terms of your $10/hr. Individual research is required; gubmint schools do a very poor job of conveying the broad scope of resources available to the financially impaired seeking higher education.
Dukhat Member	Fri Aug 02 02:18:23 Kargen - Baby boomer anecdotes for a world that no longer exists. The Boomers could do it before when housing and schooling and well-paying jobs were way more available. Everything is way more expensive now. Republicans have distracted from this by blaming illegals but they are 90% work jobs that natives aren't willing to do with corner cases being stuff like construction. College education is fine alone just for the life-enriching benefits. Educated people live richer lives and have better relationships and healthy habits from studying psychology and science. It should definitely be way cheaper. Fowayn - "gubmint schools do a very poor job of conveying the broad scope of resources available to the financially impaired seeking higher education." Oh yeah, private universities are way better. Trump university anyone? And public universities are one of the few affordable avenues to bettering oneself now even if they are more expensive than before; still way cheaper than any private university.
kargen Member	Fri Aug 02 03:21:54 Was a bit more than baby boomer anecdotes. My brothers grandson just this year took a job with the local power company. They approached him and they are paying for his training all the way to master electrician if he wishes to go that far. Housing is cheap in middle america. I bought a three bedroom house with a large yard and two sheds for $11,000 nine years ago. Was livable when I bought it but I spent another $10,000 for new appliances and to have it completely rewired. Did some other stuff as well. Granted I now live 72 miles from the nearest McDonalds and maybe 200 miles from a Starbucks but that works for me. People wouldn't need to go quite as small town as I did to find affordable housing a decent jobs. The government cyber security program is happening now. Friends of mine have children in the program. You gotta be really bright to get accepted though. There are hospitals and medical clinics in mid sized cities that are willing to pay for school (nurses) if you will commit time to them after graduating. The welding shortage is happening now. Housing is easily affordable for these types of jobs of course depending on location. Living in San Diego is probably out unless you spend part of the year welding on off shore rigs but who wants to live in San Diego anyway? If college is the route a person wants to take they should consider hitting a JR college for the first two years. Usually easy to find a grant or scholarship to those and if you keep your grades high transferring to a four year school with scholarships isn't a problem unless you think you need an Ivy League school for some stupid reason. Lots of opportunity out and about across the country. You just need to get away from the huge cities with their inflated cost of living when you are starting out. And there are a lot of people in the private sector that are willing and able to help get someone started down a career path. Just gotta show interest and some initiative.
jergul large member	Fri Aug 02 04:27:01 Kargen Seriously, you see that the separation of church and state is an anti-christian policy, right? The question is not if the GOP is anti christian, the question is why in god's name should a political party have anything other than religiously blind policies. I rephrased it specifically because the blindness principle stems directly from the separation of church and state.
hood Member	Fri Aug 02 07:48:30 Forwyn, being poor doesn't just affect children. It affects people with a 40 hour work week, kids, responsibilities. Pretending we're only talking about 18-25 year olds who have extreme flexibility due to an unsettled life is pretty stupid.
Forwyn Member	Fri Aug 02 10:10:21 Oh. Pells are limited to 18-25 year olds? There aren't scholarships and support resources for non-trads?
hood Member	Fri Aug 02 10:33:45 The ignorance is astounding. It's like arguing with hot rod.
Forwyn Member	Fri Aug 02 10:57:35 Yeah, I guess it's just ignorance. I'm honestly at a loss as to what would prevent a person from taking a couple online classes. You're not required to take a 12-15h courseload.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Aug 02 11:02:23 "The government shouldn't have to be doing this with the wealth we have in this country" well, again, we aren't living in your magical fairy land are we? "That isn't a party issue. Both parties have plenty of people willing to take shortcuts by fucking the environment " you asked about policies... one party creates environmental protections, one party removes them
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Aug 02 11:08:31 ...and please don't cite some instance of R's creating a policy... if you have any intellectual honesty at all you won't possibly try to claim the parties equally show interest in protecting environment over logging/coal/oil/etc jobs
kargen Member	Fri Aug 02 13:10:54 "Seriously, you see that the separation of church and state is an anti-christian policy, right?" No I see that as the government staying out of our lives. An anti christian policy would be to round up all the Christians and force them to convert to something else. The constitution is fairly clear that government is to be neutral on the issue of religion. "well, again, we aren't living in your magical fairy land are we?" No we are not. Well you might be I see you started thread number ten. That aside you decided earlier to speak for Jesus. I responded. I'm fairly certain Jesus would rather we take care of each other because we know it to be the right thing to do instead of being coerced into doing it. Getting people to be more independent and able to care for themselves seems a more Christian idea that to make them reliant on the whims of others. It isn't a party thing. People across the political spectrum care about the environment and people across the spectrum don't give a shit. Al Gore saw the issue as a way to make a few billion dollars. Luckily enough people saw that to stop him and his buddies. President Bush was ripped apart for making permanent a proposal President Clinton put in place temporarily. President Clinton was lauded as a true environmental champion for enacting the policy but because President Bush had an R behind his name extending it had to be evil. Didn't change a fucking thing other than extending the policy. Don't believe everything the voices in your head tells you.
jergul large member	Fri Aug 02 13:17:09 Kargen It may very well be grounded in government staying out of your lives, but it is an anti christian policy all the same. If the constitution suggests that government be neutral, is it then a stretch to think you phrased the question poorly? Its not a question of the GOP being anti christian, it is a question of it being neutral. I will ignore your comment on what would be an example of something not even the Islamic State would do ("Islamic law prohibits forced conversion"). So an odd twist on the argument to the absurd falacy.
jergul large member	Fri Aug 02 13:19:01 In sum: The GOP has a constitutional obligation to uphold religious neutrality. Attacking it for lacking certain christian characteristics is meaningless.
jergul large member	Fri Aug 02 13:20:33 Ah yes. That was the bridge. The GOP is not being accused of being anti christian, it is being accused of not upholding christian values.
kargen Member	Sun Aug 04 02:43:57 "It may very well be grounded in government staying out of your lives, but it is an anti christian policy all the same." No it is not unless you think burning someone because they believe in five sacraments instead of seven is Christian like. Remember the New Testament is very clear in distinguishing between individuals and government. Government is not held to the standards of individuals.
jergul large member	Sun Aug 04 02:50:17 Kargen Lack proportionality much? It is possible to be anti-christian without killing people. Decoupling the church from state is an extremely anti-christian move. You did it a while back, so feel it is normal. How about removing tax privileges for religious organizations. Would you view that as an anti-christian move? Its a far less intrusive measure than having absolute separation.
obaminated Member	Sun Aug 04 03:17:49 "Food, shelter, clothing" yah, it was a nightmare in america in 2000. you starved, didn't get federal help and you were just left to die on the side on the road.
obaminated Member	Sun Aug 04 03:17:53 "Food, shelter, clothing" yah, it was a nightmare in america in 2000. you starved, didn't get federal help and you were just left to die on the side on the road.
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