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Utopia Talk / Politics / RIP United Kingdom
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Thu Aug 29 01:07:10
deshelved Trump has suspended Parliment making a hard Brexit an almost certain and prompting calls of independence from Scotland and North Ireland.

Largest protest in decades
Democracy is dead
UK as we know it is dead
The Queen will probaly kill herself by end of year.
Dukhat
Member
Thu Aug 29 02:23:00
Boris Johnson could've been Prime Minister last year but decided to hold out until now. He'll probably get a very nicely paid job after he's ousted (probably months even if Brexit happens) funded by the very narrow interests that fueled the dumbass idea of Brexit in the first place.
Rugian
Member
Thu Aug 29 08:10:52
Shit like this is proof that voters have the collective memory of a goldfish. Anyone who thinks that prorogation means "democracy is dead" is a) ignorant of what prorogation actually is, b) ignorant of the upcoming parliamentary timetable, which still allows time for debate on Brexit, and c) ignorant that this is hardly and unprecedented situation.

Parliament was way overdue for a new session anyway.
Seb
Member
Thu Aug 29 09:11:21
Rugian:

Prorogations are normally 3-5 days. The longest one in recent history was 20 days, but included the pre-election period for a set of elections.

Strangely, Boris has asked for five weeks, the longest prorogation for a queens speech ever. And conveniently, given the budget and queens speech, both of which have debate time allocated to them, there isn't really any time to hold to govt to account. So actually, I think you may be under-informed on the parliamentary timetable.

Not least, even if Parliament had voted to recess for conference (which it has not yet done) a recess does not sever all parliamentary activity. The Lords and Committees still function and bills remain in progress; whereas bills not yet passed fall if not completed by the prorogation date.

Oh, and the defense minister has accidentally gone on record and said it was specifically to avoid accountability.

So yes, this does indeed appear to be the executive trying to shut down the legislature as a check and balance on it at a crucial moment.

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Aug 29 11:20:18
i heard 3 men took the Queen into her privy and forced her to submit
Paramount
Member
Thu Aug 29 11:32:08
A suspended parliament. Is this good for Putin?
Average Ameriacn
Member
Thu Aug 29 11:44:48
This means smaller government for at least some time?
Pillz
Member
Thu Aug 29 16:38:15
Obstructionist parliaments serve no purpose anyways
Forwyn
Member
Thu Aug 29 17:17:03
reeeee Parliament needs to be in session to bitch and hold NC votes over and over in order to subvert the will of the people
Seb
Member
Thu Aug 29 18:29:50
Forwyn: sure let's just give Johnson the power to make lawx by decree. It's the will of the people. We could call it the enabling law.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Aug 29 19:14:15
Is Boris unilaterally passing laws in the absence of Parliament?
Seb
Member
Fri Aug 30 05:07:29
Forwyn:

Our unelected leader has decided to send the elected representatives he is accountable to away during a key period because he doesn't think he has their confidence - which is a requirement for him to wield executive power.

Parliament is sovereign and it's *their* job to determine what it thinks the will of the people is.

Not Johnson, whose sole claim to be PM is based on an untested assumption most MPs (by a majority of 1) support him being PM because he was selected by around 100k members of the conservative party.

And yes, potentially he could invoke the civil contingencies act and make law without any means to check him if parliament is prorogued.
Forwyn
Member
Fri Aug 30 14:14:35
Oh. Okay. So he's not unilaterally passing laws, you're just being your usual hyperbolic sandy vagina self.

HE COULD THOUGH

lulz
The Children
Member
Fri Aug 30 14:54:06
aint nottin gonna happen, biatches.

snowflakes r gonna cry, chavs r gonna get drunk and display unorderly behavior, whores gonna pee on the streets, busses and trains will not be on time, everythings gonna be shit expensive.

in other words. business as usual.

shithole. will remain a shithole.
Paramount
Member
Fri Aug 30 15:08:27
”in other words. business as usual.

shithole. will remain a shithole.”


Yeah, with the addition that Britain has surrendered their sovereignty to US corporations.

”I think what the US president is saying, is that Boris Johnson is exactly what he has been looking for, a compliant Prime Minister who will hand Britain's public services and protections over to US corporations in a free trade deal.”

http://twi...tatus/1166740557382717440?s=21
The Children
Member
Fri Aug 30 15:11:25
a SHITTYHOLE means a hole that stinks. that shitssss.

it doesnt smell pleasant. and it aint clean.
sorry, worldly facts hurt.
Paramount
Member
Fri Aug 30 16:42:14
I wish I could be in London tomorrow with my Leica camera and document all the shit going on. It could be historic pictures. Boris calling in the police to clash with pro-democracy protesters and to arrest the pro-democracy troublemaker Corbyn. Epic.
Seb
Member
Sat Aug 31 01:22:26
Forwyn:

Missing the point again.

If the executive can dismiss the only body constitutionaly able to check it, then you are effectively allowing it to do all the things it could do, and just hoping it might choose not to abuse its powers.

Christ you are a retard.
Seb
Member
Sat Aug 31 01:23:39
Forwyn climbs into the lion cage and sucks his head in the mouth of a lion.

"See, hysterical, the lion hasn't eaten my head, these cages are just the paranoia of a hysteric"

Ten minutes later "We regret to inform you...."
Seb
Member
Sat Aug 31 01:24:47
Note I said "let's just give him the power to".

He has the power to.

The fact he hasn't used it doesn't alter the fact he has it.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Aug 31 02:24:34
"If the executive can dismiss the only body constitutionaly able to check it"

There's no if, spamming hyperbolic retard, the executive can request prorogation and it is usually accepted if not outlandish. Longest Parliamentary session in 400 years and Boris wants a scheduled recess + 4 days. Oh nooooooes impending fascism
Seb
Member
Sat Aug 31 04:07:03
Forwyn:

You fail to understand the role of the crown and convention in British constitutional framework.

The royal perogative powers aren't supposed to be used for partisan ends in this way.

This is the longest prorogation in these circumstances in a long time (5 weeks versus 3-5 days) excluding Majors prorogation prior to a GE which included the GE period where constitutionaly the govt can't do anything.

Again, prorogation isn't the same as recess. In recess, other parliamentary activity (select committees etc.)continues and continue to subject the govt to checks and balances, the speaker can recall the house. Further, recess is decided by parliament not the govt, and it has not voted to recess, so it's simply a lie to invoke it.

So, having ripped up convention to use royal perogative in the way Charles I did (suspend parliament and rule by decree), let's remind ourselves what parliament *CAN* do if it wants to ignore convention.

Raise an army, and hang the crown's advisors as traitors against the people was the solution then.

Let's see what the speaker decides. Because actually, parliaments sovereign powers are determined by rules set only by the speaker. By convention, the speaker must follow precedent.

But by convention, we don't have 5 week prorogations. And hey, it's only a convention.


Forwyn
Member
Sat Aug 31 08:53:06
By convention, Parliament isn't in session for four hundred years straight. But hey, keep whining.
Seb
Member
Sat Aug 31 12:32:09
Forwyn:

You mean days.

This example is hilarious though. The reason parliament has been in the longest session on the post war period is about example of the conservatives abusing parliamentary process. It was widely criticized when May announced the session length, because it was clearly to avoid having to have a queens speech miss way through the A50 period and have to renegotiate support with the DUP.

In any case, if he wants to prorogue, fine. Prorogue for a weekend like all his predecessors have during the post war period bar one where Major left only three days before an election had to be held.

Sorry Forwyn, nobody with an ounce of knowledge of the UK constitution and common sense is buying the stupid bullshit you've bought.




Seb
Member
Sat Aug 31 12:33:59
It is very likely that the next step will be the govt attempting to ignore a law passed by parliament.

Will you be goose-stepping along with that too? Or will you snap to your senses?

I'd invite you to say now so we can judge whether you have a shred of integrity when you inevitably do support Boris.

Forwyn
Member
Sat Aug 31 14:13:20
Yeah, I mean longest in 400 years.

But simultaneously whine about the length of the session then whine when it's shortened.

"Democracy is deeeeeeeeeead"

rofl
Seb
Member
Sat Aug 31 15:44:11
Forwyn:

Its the length of time when there's no parliament you idiot.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Aug 31 16:05:12
I know you think your nation will break down into Islamic anarchy if your Lords and Ladies aren't there to bicker for five weeks - oh wait

"Senators left Washington on Thursday for a five-week August recess, capping off a slog of a summer stretch."

http://the...es-for-five-week-august-recess
Seb
Member
Sat Aug 31 17:25:27
Forwyn:

Your constitution is very different from the UKs, so that's a piss poor analogy.

Our executive has way more power, particularly when it comes to royal prerogative (application of which cannot be challenged by the judiciary in the way an executive order can).

So a five week prerogation is a huge deal.

Lords and ladies cannot sit in the commons.

And again, I'm fairly sure the senate voted to decide it's own recess, not the president decreeing it, that there is a mechanism for the senate to call itself back if, for example, the president began to behave in a way that was unconstitutional or there was a national emergency; and that the senate recess doesn't cause all congressional activity to cease and for all bills to be thrown out of both houses.

Does it Forwyn?


Seb
Member
Sun Sep 01 04:30:40
So put it this way, if your burning desire is to have a queens speech and set out a new agenda, and end the anomalously long session the govt you previously were a part of and through cabinet collective responsibility (Boris was one of the big three ministers) are accountable for;

Prorogue over a weekend in the middle of conference season, not for five weeks covering time either side of recess.

Anyway, looks like he's pissed everyone off now.

At least you've come off the fence as a dirty little populists authoritarian: too proud to be a trumpitard, you've found a foreigner to back instead.

A hipster populist! You like the obscure ones. That way your appreciation is more authentic and refined.
Forwyn
Member
Sun Sep 01 11:27:08
I don't give a shit about Boris. I'm mocking your Chicken Little retardation. You're in such a tizzy that you came back 11 hours later to bitch again. You're in such a tizzy that you can't recognize mocking and try to lecture about the difference between the two houses and who attends.

dEmOcRaCy iS dEaD yOu fUcKiNg pOpUlIsT

Fucking hilarious that you would call others an authoritarian though. You spend a good deal of your time with the boot halfway down your throat.
Seb
Member
Sun Sep 01 12:46:27
Forwyn:

Democracy is dead is your own straw man.

The govt is behaving anti-democratically. It is rightly being chastised.

The fact that Nixon behaved illegally and anti-democratically at Watergate didn't mean democracy died. He was, in the end, impeached.

What I have chastised you on is your evident support for Boris.

You've not mocked me, you've repeatedly tried to justify Boris's unconstitutional and anti-democratic behaviour.

Good for you that you are now backing away from your apparent support, but quite pathetic to try and cast these as jokes and mocking. How does invoking long parliamentary sittings work to mock me, exactly? Come off it Forwyn, you are just a hipster populist authoritarian, just like the Trumpitards, "oh, I don't short him I'm too ironic for that, no, in just owning the libs by pretending to", only of course, Trump is too pase and like 18 year olds digging out progressive rock albums, this is just your pretention.

Simple question, does that mean you now agree that are not the proper behaviour of a govt?

Or are you still cheering on the populist authoritarian to "pwn the libs"
Forwyn
Member
Sun Sep 01 13:11:57
Literally my first post here was mocking you on your Chicken Little retardation, you utter fucking mongoloid. rofl at your continued whining and rants.
Seb
Member
Sun Sep 01 13:31:01
Forwyn:

Literally, your first post was a classic Trumpitard esque idiocy of the "it's cool because it pwns the libs".

"reeeee Parliament needs to be in session to bitch and hold NC votes over and over in order to subvert the will of the people"

1. Yes, Parliament needs to be in session to hold the govt to account.
2. No, it's not subverting "the will of the people", Parliament is the expression of the will of the people.

Nothing I'd said at the time could be described as "Chicken Little" - you can read it again below and tell me which part you felt was "chicken little" if you like. When the govt is acting unconstitutionally, it is right that it is challenged on that and held to account.

My only post that you were supposedly "mocking for being chicken little":

"Prorogations are normally 3-5 days. The longest one in recent history was 20 days, but included the pre-election period for a set of elections.

Strangely, Boris has asked for five weeks, the longest prorogation for a queens speech ever. And conveniently, given the budget and queens speech, both of which have debate time allocated to them, there isn't really any time to hold to govt to account. So actually, I think you may be under-informed on the parliamentary timetable.

Not least, even if Parliament had voted to recess for conference (which it has not yet done) a recess does not sever all parliamentary activity. The Lords and Committees still function and bills remain in progress; whereas bills not yet passed fall if not completed by the prorogation date.

Oh, and the defense minister has accidentally gone on record and said it was specifically to avoid accountability.

So yes, this does indeed appear to be the executive trying to shut down the legislature as a check and balance on it at a crucial moment."
Seb
Member
Sun Sep 01 13:32:33
So, I ask again:

Do you support Boris's move here, or do you think it is unconstitutional overreach by the executive and anti-democratic?
Seb
Member
Mon Sep 02 13:07:53
Johnson has turned into May: pointless and empty statements in front of no 10.
Dukhat
Member
Mon Sep 02 22:54:35
Forwyn mocking others for being retarded. The last time he tried to engage in an arguement whether he had to cite evidence, he quoted Koch Brothers network bullshit and irrelevant articles.

LoL. Fucking delusional.
Seb
Member
Tue Sep 03 11:18:30
Boris imploding in the commons. Looses his majority when a Tory MP crosses floor to join the lib Dems as Boris makes statement from the dispatch box.

By the end of questions, govt benches almost empty.

Ouch.

I'm sure Corbyn will find a way to rescue the govt though.
swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Tue Sep 03 11:45:35
corbyn is a good man.
Paramount
Member
Tue Sep 03 12:20:48
Jeremy Corbyn
@jeremycorbyn

Boris Johnson isn’t winning any friends in Europe and he’s losing friends at home.

His is a government with no mandate, no morals and, as of today, no majority.
CrownRoyal
Member
Tue Sep 03 12:29:31
No deal is so bad for the banksters that Corbyn's Labour, the supposed marxist bane of financiers, is preferable to Boris now, for them

========


Corbyn better than no deal Brexit say investment banks as anti-capitalist Labour wins unlikely new City fans
3 SEPTEMBER 2019 • 5:14PM
Follow


Jeremy Corbyn, the scourge of bankers and avowed opponent of capitalism, is winning support from unexpected new quarters: two of the biggest global banks operating in the City of London are warming to the Labour leader.

Unlikely as it may seem, he is now seen as the lesser of two evils by analysts at Citibank and Deutsche Bank, respectively American and German titans of the financial system.

“Is Corbyn as bad as no-deal? Perhaps no longer,” said Christian Schulz at Citi.
cont
http://www...estment-banks-anti-capitalist/
Seb
Member
Tue Sep 03 12:47:43
Corbyns one redeeming feature is he's fucking useless.
Seb
Member
Tue Sep 03 14:09:25
I think this is going to be a defeat fly the govt.
Seb
Member
Tue Sep 03 17:17:24
So boris is probably going to get his preferred election conditions.

But I think he's going to be boxed in now.
jergul
large member
Wed Sep 04 01:11:16
Your Parliament is certainly entertaining. I caught the vote live. The house speaker is certainly taking his pound of flesh out of Johnson procedurally.

Losing by 27 votes is stunning. Conservative sceptics are rallying around the wrong flag. Threatening expulsion from the party seems to have the opposite effect.

He already screwed his preferred election conditions. Hard to walk back from sending Parliament into vacation.
Seb
Member
Wed Sep 04 12:47:11
Jergul:

I'm not sure how much resonance that will have in the electorate. It's had more than I thought it would, helping to unify opposition, but not people who would have voted for Boris anyway.

He'll get his opportunity to run a populist people Vs parliament election squeezing the brexit party out; while the opposition is quite split.

He's been trialing culture war messages which Cummings already excels at targeting at niche voter segments invisibily to those not intended to see it. Dog whistle 2.0.

It'll be an election where getting turnout is key. So overegging the provocation to get the election "forced on him" may have backfired slightly, and Labour not falling into the trap of a pre Oct 31st election date, these are second order factors.
He's still on plan broadly.

Boris and Cummings only care about brexit as a means to an end. Boris just wants to be PM as long as possible, Cummings has mad ideas about remaking the UK.



swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Wed Sep 04 12:56:59
Elizabeth Saxe Coburg Gotha will make everything better.
you'll see.
Dukhat
Member
Thu Sep 05 01:23:44
I've seen this scene in a movie before. The vote ushers in Emperor Palpatine who then destroys the order of the Jedi Knights.
Seb
Member
Thu Sep 05 01:49:15
Dukhat:

We will see. But it was heartening to see the UK legislators, even if his own party, stand up to "Britain Trump" in precisely the way US ones haven't to "America Johnson".

The Tory party has been destroyed.
Which is not a good thing for reasons I'll go into another time. Whatever it turns into now will be more akin to the US republicans. But I don't think that can generate the kind of stable majorities. The Bannonists underestimate the role gerrymandering plays in sustaining those and the UK has at least two to three strong barriers against that.
jergul
large member
Thu Sep 05 02:19:28
"The Tory party has been destroyed."

Not done yet. Johnson has to walk the election gauntlet after asking the EU for an extension into 2020.

That is when the party will be crucified. It will not be helpful if a number of the expelled MPs choose to run anyway.
Dukhat
Member
Thu Sep 05 02:23:42
There are videos of Johnson talking about what an idiot Trump is. He was also the clear front-runner last year but decided not to for whatever reason. Is there a chance he is self-aware and decided it's better the tories spend some time in the wilderness rather than plunge Britain into a pointless recession/depression?
Seb
Member
Thu Sep 05 04:42:18
Jergul:

You misunderstand me. What we have now is not meaningfully the same party as elected May. It's essentially an English nationalist party. That party may well suffer electoral defeats, or it may well do quite well under Cummings strategy.

But it's no longer the blend of
Burkean small c conservatism (pragmatic, incrementalist, valuing tried and tested institutions over radical reorganisation) and classical liberalism.

Expelling it's conservative and liberal wing, all you have left is disaster capitalists like Mog and radical English nationalists.

Seb
Member
Thu Sep 05 05:11:29
Dukhat:

No. His strategy has been very clear from assist the beginning of his campaign to become leader. He wants to win a decisive election early. Once he's won an election, he has five years, and whatever he eventually does with respect to brexit, the issue will be dead when the next election comes around.

To win an election, he must annihilate the Farrage led brexit party by adopting their policies, and engineer the election to happen before the date we leave.

If he tries after, he will be open to attack for not doing brexit the right way, and the voter turnout in that demographic will be lower, so his core vote will be hit by both split and low turnout; while the opposition is likely to be more unified (no split between labour and the other parties over soft brexit Vs revoke Vs second ref) and more motivated to turn out and punish him. Plus if after, it will be in the context of a no-deal scenario and he'll be managing a rolling national crisis.

But if he goes before, with a strong credential for delivering no deal if he can't secure the fantasy deal where the UK gets all the benefits of membership with no costs, the positions are reversed.
If you really, really want brexit, there's no point voting for anyone other than Boris and substantial risk if you do vote anyone than Boris; while labour relations split on second referendum Vs their own deal, and Corbyns other policies and anti-Semitism limit the scope for electoral pacts with other parties.

For this to work, he needs to pin the blame for the election on others, so you can't be accused of risking brexit and being less credible on delivering brexit than Farrage.

As a secondary measure he needs to hold out the prospect of a deal - no matter how fantastical - where the UK gets everything Brexiteers want anyway, but no trade disruption. You get many soft Brexiteers too.

To square this narrative, you say parliament stops you from no deal, but the threat of no deal is the only thing that pursuades Europe to give a good deal.

In praactice, this has meant that to get the election timing right he needed to either secure an extension in a way that could be blamed on Parliament, or get an election called in September.

The purpose of the prorogation is two-fold:

1. Provoke an anti-no-deal bill in September to allow him to blame parliament for undermining his negotiation changes of getting a deal and justify an election.

2. Demonstrate to hard Brexiteer voters he's willing to rip up the rule book.

Largely it's worked. The cost is he's probably lost many soft leave voters than he intended to, and probably many small c conservative voters. But he's probably going to pick up almost all of the UKIP and Brexit voters.

So while right now he looks like he's getting pasted, from another perspective he's reshaping the conservative party to better fit his electoral strategy of unifying the right and far right; and while he's eroded his appeal in the centre he's still well positioned.

However, I don't think he anticipated losing quite so many MPs. He wanted to lose by one or two votes. Having to expell quite so many distinguised big hitters, rather than have them marginalised and locked in a closet to be wheeled out to get more centrist votes, may (or may not) cost him an outright majority. Though many were standing down anyway.

Overall, he's sacrificed a few pawns but his position is strong (though not invulnerable), his strategy remains viable and plausible, and it's still good odds (though not inevitable) that his strategy will succeed and pay off.
Seb
Member
Thu Sep 05 06:04:29
Boris Johnsons brother has now resigned, to spend less time with his family (in which Boris no longer has a majority).
Dukhat
Member
Thu Sep 05 10:29:56
It all depends on whether the polling is right. The 538 podcast say a slight majority favor remain now but a slight majority also support the "democratic" process.

The problem with remain is that it has to rely on James Corbyn who's kind of a dimwit. Jumping to the liberal democrats or some third party seems like a bold gambit in an electoral system with only first-past-the-post voting.

Here's hoping it somehow works out. I tend to think Boris is overplaying his hand and people are kind of sick of Brexit but I don't have a good feeling of British politics.
Seb
Member
Thu Sep 05 13:53:34
Dukhat:

I think polling isn't the best thing to look at here.

Boris and Cummings care only about a GE.

So it's about distribution of votes, not just the headline figure for the pop.

Also it's not as simple as leave and remain as you have hard brexit preference, soft brexit preference.

When they get to the election Cummings and Crosby have a playbook for targeted messages etc. and still remain streets ahead. So they have tactical advantages too.

Boris is slightly overplaying - but the strategy remains intact and viable. If labour is smart, it'll pivot to "brexit has failed, let's move on", to counter Boris moving to "no deal and get it over with"
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Sep 06 15:12:03
some guy: “Please leave my town.”
Boris : “I will, very soon.”

http://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1169664123745054727
Rugian
Member
Fri Sep 06 15:26:58
It's been a while since I've posted in this thread, but after reading the news from the last few days, it's clear that Seb is 100000% of shit.

"Prorogation doesnt leave enough time to hold the government to account"...rofl.
Seb
Member
Fri Sep 06 15:46:56
Rugian:

I'm sorry, but do you care to explain to me how, under the prorogation, the remaining 400 SIs required to implement either no deal brexit, would have been able to be scrutinized?

You appear to have confused accountability and parliament creating a law forcing an extension precisely because Boris isn't allowing time to legislate for no deal.

If anything, the last week's events precisely demonstrate my point: so egregious was Borises prorogation it United the entire commons and 22 of his own MPs against him.

Which of course was the intent: provoke an extension to justify an election.

Rugian, you are such a patsy.
Seb
Member
Fri Sep 06 15:52:02
Boris: ho ho, I will shut down Parliament and schedule a Queens speech so it won't be able to make a formal assessment of my deal or scrutinise laws I'll pass by fiat to implement it, or stop leaving by no deal.

Parliament: fine, we will force an extension request right now so we will have time to scrutinise your deal and alternative options and avoid a no deal.

Rugian: the extension being passed proves that the extension wasn't necessary!!
Seb
Member
Fri Sep 06 15:55:30
It's amazing what confirmation bias can make people do.
Rugian
Member
Fri Sep 06 16:00:16
Seb,

What an absolute pile of horseshit I just read. Anti-Brexit MPs are not sabotaging the referendum results because they need more time to responsibly legislate preparations for no-deal scenario, they're doing so because they want to avoid no-deal, period.

The fact that you think you could get away with such a blatant lie is honestly one of the largest insults I've ever incurred here. Jesus.

Seb
Member
Fri Sep 06 19:08:24
Rugian:

As you well know, the legislation just passed allows a no-deal. If Boris can justify it.

The referendum result didn't say how we should leave, so arguing it is sabotage for parliament to block no deal and insist on a deal is absurd. Boris and both leave campaigns promised a deal, contemporaneous polls show high support for a close relationship amongst leave voters.

In any case, Boris says he doesn't want no deal. He put the chance at a million to one. He says he's going for a deal. He says no deal is a threat (but, really, he also says no deal would be fine for the UK, so it cant be much of a threat to the EU!) necessary to get a deal. But the legislation allows him to get no deal if the EU refuse to negotiate.

So are you telling me he's lying, to the people and to parliament, and that he's actually trying to get no deal, and the negotiation is a sham?

If that's the case, isn't it entirely right then for parliament to insist he gets a mandate for no-deal? Particularly an extra chaotic no-deal where, amongst other things, there would be for example, no law in place to regulate UK fisheries resulting in rampant abuse because his prorogation has blocked his own brexit fisheries bill?

Rugian, get serious for a minute here - none of this is really about brexit right now. Boris has been planning a mid October election since before he stood as leader and a prorogation as a means to force parliament to reign him in so as to justify it since early August. The court of sessions disclosure shows this.

Stop being a naive little patsy.

In any case, it is law now. So a good idea to decide now how you'll react if he follows though on his threat to break the law. Do you really believe in democracy with govts sucede to the rule of law, or the tyranny of the masses? And if Corbyn wins a majority and can ignore the law, what's to stop him just lining up his opponents and shooting them?

jergul
large member
Sat Sep 07 03:51:34
Seb
You do realize that the current general secretary of Nato is far more radical than Corbyn, right?

How incidentally would Corbyn win an election if laws can be ignored? Premier Johnson for life.
Seb
Member
Sat Sep 07 08:44:39
Jergul:

Has the secretary general of NATO stood on a platform of expropriating 300Bn worth of capital? To name just one policy.
Seb
Member
Sat Sep 07 15:43:51
And he's just lost amber Rudd.

Rugian is likely just a little bit ashamed. The conservatives are doing what the republicans should have done RE trump.
Seb
Member
Mon Sep 09 06:44:22
So, given the PM now wants an election called and the opposition agrees, given the election occurs after an extension had been granted, why bother with a Queens speech given the PM intends to dissolve parliament days later?

And if so why is he proroguing parliament?

Seb
Member
Mon Sep 09 11:24:29
Heh heh ... Grieve again... this is fun.

Seb
Member
Mon Sep 09 11:40:13
Ooh. Juicy. Possible case of misleading Parliament and misfeasance of public office (dishonest advice to the Queen).
Seb
Member
Mon Sep 09 14:05:05
Is Boris going to get Watergated?
Seb
Member
Mon Sep 09 19:08:41
So. 5 out 5 loses for Johnson.

He's looking as of he has aged as much as Blair did in five years in only 5 days.

Not sure he's really cut out for this.
jergul
large member
Tue Sep 10 01:14:56
Seb
We never privatized the 300bn worth of capital in the first place. State ownership in Norway is satisfactorily high.

We are far more radical (from a UK perspective) than you think we are.
jergul
large member
Tue Sep 10 01:17:51
In my district, labour got 20% of vote. The radical left wing breakaway party (left of corbyn by far) got 18% and the communist party got 7%.

Local elections yesterday :-).
Seb
Member
Tue Sep 10 01:35:09
Jergul:

1. There's a difference between not privatising and then confiscating without compensation.

2. The Corbyn policy I mention applies to all private companies (not just those that were privatised) leading me to think you possibly aren't as familiar with his policies as you imagine him to be.
jergul
large member
Wed Sep 11 02:45:08
Seb
Sort of random that comment on "confiscation without compensation" Are you perchance mistaking Corbyn for Lenin (a dude who died almost a century ago)?

Nationalisation (with compensation as is the absolute norm) can include any company you like. Is he thinking of nationalising anything not partially or fully government owned in Norway today?

Reversing aspects of Thatcherism is not a radical move by any reasonable measure.

Noting as we do that we have had what we consider a conservative government for years now. Or something on the left side of the UK labour party.
Seb
Member
Wed Sep 11 06:41:25
Jergul:
I think you need to review Labours policies. You are looking at the wrong one. I'm not trying to renationalising utilities. So as I said you may not be familiar with Corbyns policy suite as you think and maybe then not as well placed to assess whether he's more or less radical as you think. But this is off topic.
Seb
Member
Wed Sep 11 06:42:51
Seems the court of session in Scotland thinks Boris move was illegal and anti-democratic.

Forwyn, Rugian, care to comment? You bad of course wait until the UK supreme court, but clearly the complaint wasnt as pie in the sky as you supposed.
Paramount
Member
Wed Sep 11 13:26:54
”There will be a definitive ruling on whether the prime minister acted unlawfully, or not - and that will determine whether parliament is to be recalled in the lead up to 31 October”


So if the court rules that it was unlawful, will Boris be arrested and jailed?
Seb
Member
Wed Sep 11 13:38:47
Paramount:

Probably not - unlawful isn't necessarily a crime. He could be prosecuted for misfeasance of public office which is a crime, but suspect he'd need to intentionally break the law by e.g. not following the law directing him to request an a50 extension.

He will probably have to resign, but he's likely to refuse to do that. He might be impeached. More likely his govt will be voted out and we will have a new GE.
jergul
large member
Thu Sep 12 03:45:36
Seb
It is off-topic. I encourage you to stop using the "Furthermore, Corbyn must be destroyed" byline on your posts. It distracts from the discussion.
Seb
Member
Thu Sep 12 05:34:30
Jergul:

I didn't, at it highlights your failure of comprehension to think I did.
Seb
Member
Thu Sep 12 05:41:37
If you read carefully, you will see that I have raised Corbyn only in terms of his impact on electoral calculus and as a hypothetical example of why it's stupid to tolerate a govt in power breaking the law because you support them. Corbyn isn't going to start shooting people. But if him (or anyone else for that matter) becomes PM, can suspend parliament because it is thwarting "the will of the people", and break the law because it too thwarts "the will of the people", what's to stop them lining up and shooting their opponents?

That's the point, and an easy enough one to follow. While I know you have an inexplicable soft spot for this incompetent, anti-semitic, 70's throwback - you don't need to fly to his defence every time he's mentioned.


Paramount
Member
Fri Sep 13 12:30:53
Interview with David Cameron about Brexit:

Asked "how hard" life has been for him personally since the referendum result, Mr Cameron said: "I think about this every day.”

"Every single day I think about it, the referendum and the fact that we lost and the consequences and the things that could have been done differently, and I worry desperately about what is going to happen next."

Mr Cameron was asked about whether he has trouble sleeping.

He replied: "I worry about it a lot. I worry about it a lot."

The former prime minister also revealed that the morning after losing the EU referendum he phoned Barack Obama and Europe's leaders to tell them he was "sorry" for the outcome.

http://new...dum-cant-be-ruled-out-11808745


He even called Obama and apologized. lol


Full interview behind a paywall at http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/david-cameron-interview-boris-johnson-brexit-and-the-referendum-9gkxqghv9
Seb
Member
Thu Sep 19 12:01:43
Hmm. Obviously impossible to predict and ianal, but i think the govt may have lost the supreme court case.

Will he resign for lying to the Queen?
Seb
Member
Tue Sep 24 05:06:35
Suck it Forwyn and Rugian - court agrees, prorogation anti democratic, unlawful, quashed.
Average Ameriacn
Member
Tue Sep 24 10:49:55
The people have spoken but the establishment of activist judges wants to silence them.

This is why we Americans are armed, something like this could never happen to us here in the U.S.A.!
Rugian
Member
Tue Sep 24 11:15:30
TREASON!

All of the judges involved should be immediately arrested for overriding a royal act. This is nothing short of a judicial coup, and should be treated by the government as such.

We all knew the court was going to rule this way, because of course they are establishment figures and are enemies of the people.

Bercow is a contemptablr piece of shit and should be treated as such by the Conservatives. Any respect that is customarily granted to a person in his office should be denied until he resigns.

The government should boycott Parliament and hold that ANY legislation passed from now until progation was supposed to end is unlawful. Parliament has proved itself an instrument of sabotaging the results of the referendum and it has accordingly lost the democratic mandate to hold the government to account. Fuck all of them.
obaminated
Member
Tue Sep 24 11:16:51
Lying isnt a good thing but the fact that seb wants someone to resign because they specifically lied to the queen shows that the poster is a legit subject and doesnt realize it. Pathetic.
Rugian
Member
Tue Sep 24 11:20:07
"We have the power to overrule the government on anything." Oh fuck off.

Prorogation was longer than usual? So was the last parliamentary session; maybe the courts should have forcefully dissolved Parliament back in 2018. Never mind that the significant portion of the prorogation period was taking place during the conference season anyway. And never mind that this represents an overruling of the sovereign's act.

COUP
Rugian
Member
Tue Sep 24 11:22:35
Well, the Rubicon has been crossed by the treasonous establishment, and Jonson needs to respond in kind. No delay of any kind should be requested prior to Novemebr 1, no matter what the traitors in Parliament say.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Sep 24 11:58:21
we should've stuck w/ England

a corrupt liar acts & gets smacked down, unlike here

plus we'd get to see more good John Bercow (shouting guy) videos on the news
Seb
Member
Tue Sep 24 12:00:06
We don't actually have activist judges.

They are independently appointed and have a long history of avoiding political rulings.

Is it really unsurprising that the executive trying to shut down the legislature using an ancient power of the monarch in order to stifle dissent, which the last Monarchy to attempt so hot beheaded over, might prove we, unconstitutional?

Rugian:

Err no.

Obaminated:

The constitutional job of the prime minister is to advise the Queen on the use of executive power. He's just abused that. It's not that he lied. Or that he lied to the Queen (if, e.g. some other figure lied to the Queen it would be a non issue).
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Sep 24 12:31:51
doesn't this make your Queen look weak & stupid?

perhaps times for Charles to make his move
Forwyn
Member
Tue Sep 24 13:06:27
"unlawful"

Suck it Seb, put pen to paper and make it unlawful, instead of relying on feefees like your retarded courts
Seb
Member
Tue Sep 24 14:56:16
Forwyn:

Pen has already been put to paper. That's how the judges determined it was illegal.


Tumbleweed:

No. The Queen (or king) can only do what the PM advises. But the point is when the PM is doing something by wearing the Queen like a hat, then they need to be behaving in the appropriate way.




Seb
Member
Tue Sep 24 14:56:49
Rugian has properly lost it.
Seb
Member
Tue Sep 24 14:58:57
A minority govt led by a PM that's never won an election decides to try and shut down the legislature in contravention to the law in order to avoid accountability, and he thinks the coup is when the judiciary are forced to step in.

Seb
Member
Tue Sep 24 14:59:25
Face it fuckers, I was right, you were wrong.
Seb
Member
Tue Sep 24 15:17:55
https://youtu.be/sDtyJyidhlc
Seb
Member
Tue Sep 24 15:19:54
https://youtu.be/WtY8BYP0mnc
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