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Utopia Talk / Politics / Trump is not God
patom
Member
Tue Nov 26 06:48:08
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/26/politics/donald-trump-constitution-supreme-court-executive-power/index.html
patom
Member
Tue Nov 26 07:01:31
http://www...urt-executive-power/index.html
Forwyn
Member
Tue Nov 26 13:11:40
Oh. Democrats support limited executive power again. Just like they love war and the military now.

WASHINGTON — Attorney General Eric Holder won’t be prosecuted for being in contempt of Congress because he is insulated by President Barack Obama‘s use of executive privilege, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said Friday.

http://www...t-charge-prosecution_n_1638420
hood
Member
Tue Nov 26 13:22:03
Your own article contradicts you, babe.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Nov 26 13:23:53
Eric Holder failed to provide certain documents

Trump is withholding all documents & all witnesses

plus shitheads like Corey Lewandowski just sorta applying executive privilege... not actually using it but not answering questions anyway...
Forwyn
Member
Tue Nov 26 13:29:20
"Your own article contradicts you, babe."

Surely you're talking to patom.

"Trump is withholding all documents & all witnesses"

Nothing wrong with that. Private conversations between executives have long been held as privileged
patom
Member
Tue Nov 26 13:50:41
Wow, I'm surprised that Trump hasn't pointed out the obvious fact that the Judge is a Obama appointee and is black. Of course he may be trying to hold onto his huge support among the African American community.

Maybe he is losing his nerve about disparaging Judges that don't kiss his ring.

Forwyn, are you supporting Trump to be King?
Forwyn
Member
Tue Nov 26 14:05:02
Just interested to see how Pelosi, Cummings, Rangel, Jackson Lee, etc, all looooved Executive Privilege before, and now they (with the exception of the dead one, but we can predict where his vote would fall) demand 100% transparency on unimportant shit

Because gun running to Mexican cartels is less important than MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH UKRAINIAN QUID PRO QUO
Rugian
Member
Tue Nov 26 14:05:19
"Maybe he is losing his nerve about disparaging Judges that don't kiss his ring."

By "not kissing the ring," do you mean "actively acting as a member of the resistance and undermining the Executive branch in order to nullify the result of the 2016 election?"

At least this judge didnt say that Trump doesnt have the authority to resicnd Obama-era executive orders with his own executive orders. So shes certainly not the worst Obama appointee in the federal judiciary.
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 26 14:14:12
"to nullify the result of the 2016 election"

Trump has achieved nothing so far and removing him now to be replaced by Pence would render the whole presidental period moot?

Rugian
Member
Tue Nov 26 14:33:32
I've never denied that the resistance has been very effective at deny Trump the full prerogatives of his power since the day of his inauguration.

But to say he's achieved "nothing" is baseless. Between his judicial appointments, tax reform, bureaucratic red tape-cutting, and realignment of the European "alliance," he's actually done a lot given the obstacles he's faced.
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 26 14:54:25
So no one is trying to nullify the result of the 2016 election?
patom
Member
Tue Nov 26 14:54:38
So who the hell is the resistance? You had all three branches for 2 years and did what? Hell they didn't even manage to repeal the ACA. Which seemed to preoccupy the Republican majority for 6 years under Obama and 2 years under Trump.

Oh if he were only King he could institute anything he wanted with the snap of a finger.
jergul
large member
Tue Nov 26 14:58:56
Its the deep state of course patom. Or women. Or the press.
patom
Member
Wed Nov 27 05:55:34
Or the complete incompetence of the the Republican Party. Or Benghazi. Or the Clintons.

In all honesty, I was sort of hoping that Trump might grow into the office and become a better man. It has become beyond apparent that that hope will be unfulfilled.
Dukhat
Member
Wed Nov 27 06:59:52
Cuckservatives are so sad. All the smart ones left and all their arguments are basically whataboutism.
CrownRoyal
Member
Wed Nov 27 10:35:02
Donald's legal team has consistetly made legal arguments that he is immune from any charges, by anyone.

---

Wall Street Journal: Trump attorneys assert immunity from broad sweep of law
October 29, 2019



Legal filings and lawyers’ statements show attempt to put president beyond legal reach while in office.


WASHINGTON—Over his nearly three years in office, lawyers representing President Trump have made numerous legal arguments that, taken as a whole, would give the president sweeping immunity—even if he were to commit murder.

An extensive review of correspondence, court documents, legal opinions and public statements from lawyers representing Mr. Trump shows the president’s attorneys have consistently pushed to put him beyond the reach of any other institution in federal, state or local government—immune to civil lawsuits, judicial orders, criminal investigations or congressional probes.

Those arguments have become even more aggressive as Mr. Trump faces numerous legal threats, including a possible impeachment in Congress, a New York state prosecutor who has subpoenaed his tax records as part of a criminal probe and a welter of civil lawsuits.

One lawyer for the president recently even suggested that Mr. Trump could shoot someone on Manhattan’s Fifth Avenue and not be investigated by local authorities, echoing a statement the president made during his 2016 campaign in which he said he wouldn’t lose any voters over such an action.

A longstanding Justice Department legal opinion says a president can’t be federally prosecuted while in office, but says nothing about being investigated, and in any case doesn’t apply to state and local efforts to enforce their own laws. Mr. Trump’s lawyers say he is beyond any such actions.

“This administration has articulated a view of presidential power in which the president is above the law,” said Erica Newland, who served in the Justice Department Office of Legal Counsel during both the Obama and Trump administrations.

Lawyers representing the president either in his personal or institutional capacity have argued that law enforcement can’t investigate the president at all; that he can shut down investigations into himself or his associates; and that obstruction-of-justice laws don’t apply to the president. (Nobody argues that presidents aren’t subject to all laws once they are out of office.)
cont
http://www...broad-sweep-of-law-11572346801
CrownRoyal
Member
Wed Nov 27 10:38:00
Then again, a sitting president has to get support from 33 senators and he is above the law. Is there anything that can be done to him, by any amrican law enforcement, if he has that support?
TJ
Member
Wed Nov 27 13:07:50
"Is there anything that can be done to him, by any amrican law enforcement, if he has that support?"

No.

http://dig...rticle=1897&context=fss_papers
Forwyn
Member
Wed Nov 27 13:14:23
Dukhat
Member Wed Nov 27 06:59:52
Cuckservatives are so sad. All the smart ones left and all their arguments are basically whataboutism.

Precedent and Executive Privilege is a whataboutism now. Tell us more, Cuckhat, you fucking retard
patom
Member
Wed Nov 27 14:19:56
Forwyn, please enlighten me to the Precedents of Trumps behavior. That is by any American Presidents.
jergul
large member
Wed Nov 27 14:51:02
"No.", not while he is in office.

But immunity goes with the office. He could be arrested, convicted, and jailed for crimes done while in office afterwards.

I would love to see how Trump pardoning himself would actually play out in the criminal justice system.
Forwyn
Member
Wed Nov 27 14:58:40
"Precedents of Trumps behavior"

There is nothing to suggest that private conversations between heads of state are not privileged.

What isn't privileged, is an illicit gunrunning scheme that results in the death of a border agent, and untold deaths of Mexican and US civilians.

That's pretty much what Congressional oversight was invented for.
TJ
Member
Wed Nov 27 15:33:14
He can't pardon himself from impeachment.

jergul, while in office was the question from CR.

Even though the Constitution doesn't prevent a President leaving office who hasn't been impeached from criminal prosecution the impediments and prudential considerations facing criminal charges are very slim.
jergul
large member
Wed Nov 27 16:22:46
Did not Ford pardon Nixon?
jergul
large member
Wed Nov 27 16:23:44
I meant that Trump could try to pardon himself from criminal proceedings after his presidency.
TJ
Member
Wed Nov 27 16:27:56
He pardoned Nixon from a criminal prosecution if my memory serves me correctly. Nixon resigned and was never impeached even though he surely would have been otherwise.
TJ
Member
Wed Nov 27 16:29:10
No, he has no pardon powers after his Presidency.
jergul
large member
Wed Nov 27 16:32:11
I meant pardoning himself while president to avoid criminal proceedings after his presidency.

He could pardon himself at the same time he does the turkeys for example.
TJ
Member
Wed Nov 27 16:34:48
The President can not pardon himself, he can't be indicted while President. He would have to be indicted after he leaves office. That is not very likely to happen if he wasn't impeached.
jergul
large member
Wed Nov 27 16:36:52
"do grant a full, free, and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon for all offenses against the United States which he, Richard Nixon, has committed or may have committed or taken part in during the period from January 20, 1969 through August 9, 1974"

Something like that. Though from 1966 to 2020 would probably be a better fit for Trump (I am not sure when he got the medical disability documentation to avoid serving in Vietnam, but that would be a good starting point).
jergul
large member
Wed Nov 27 16:40:06
Trump thinks he can pardon himself.
TJ
Member
Wed Nov 27 16:40:30
As you said, Ford pardoned Nixon. Nixon didn't pardon himself. If you are asking can the incoming President pardon Trump if he is facing criminal prosecution the answer is yes.
TJ
Member
Wed Nov 27 16:45:20
"Trump thinks he can pardon himself."

lmao, he is trolling the left if he has actually made such a statement. He doesn't need to pardon himself while in office and can't after he has left office. He is exempt from being criminally prosecuted while in office. The only thing that he can suffer in office is impeachment from the Senate.
jergul
large member
Wed Nov 27 16:48:20
He can pardon himself for "for all offenses against the United States which he has committed or may have committed or taken part in"

All it takes is a flourish of a felt pen.

The pardon would be valid until overturned. If and when that ever happened.
jergul
large member
Wed Nov 27 16:50:07
I don't think he is trolling. I think Trump truly believes he has won the USA and it is his to do whatever he wants with.

TJ
Member
Wed Nov 27 16:50:56
NO, provide your evidence.
jergul
large member
Wed Nov 27 16:54:39
Its how your system works TJ. Presidents generally don't waste time on proclamations and executive orders they know will be overturned, but both are valid until overturned.

How else were you thinking your system should work?
TJ
Member
Wed Nov 27 16:57:38
I'm thinking of how the Constitution actually works.

My request still stands.
jergul
large member
Wed Nov 27 17:01:57
Present your evidence that a presidential pardon can be invalidated for any reason.
jergul
large member
Wed Nov 27 17:07:35
Its a funny thing, aint it?

People say Trump cannot pardon himself, but what actually happens if he does the paperwork while president?

Who decides if the pardon is valid or not, and how long will it take whoever to make that decision?

What is the status of a presidential decree that has not been overturned? As a general principle?

Why would you argue that a self-pardon is somehow automatically invalid?
TJ
Member
Wed Nov 27 17:09:25
Under the fundamental rule that no one may be a judge in his own case, the President cannot pardon
himself
TJ
Member
Wed Nov 27 17:09:52
The reason for the impeachment process.
jergul
large member
Wed Nov 27 17:17:02
How does that fundamental rule physically stop Trump from pardoning himself?

Would that decree automatically be invalid? Do you have any examples of any executive decree being automatically invalid from the start?

Should we actually start weighing all executive orders against fundamental rules to decide if any or all of them are automatically invalid?
TJ
Member
Wed Nov 27 17:25:58
If the President attempted to pardon himself from a criminal act you would have bipartisan support to impeach in the Senate. I have no doubt.

The impeachment process is the only avenue. Remember that impeachment is a political process and takes two-thirds super majority vote of those present. It prevents partisan removal because one party doesn't like what the other party is doing.

The only way to take out Trump thus far is in the next election.
jergul
large member
Wed Nov 27 17:37:41
TJ
Impeachment would not help much as all it does is remove someone from office who was about to leave office anyway.

The scenario is Trump pardoning himself to avoid convictions after he leaves office.

The Mueller report established clearly enough that it is not possible to indict a sitting president on criminal charges.

A self-pardon is not about taking president Trump from office, it is about shielding citizen Trump from criminal convictions that might follow once he leaves office.
TJ
Member
Wed Nov 27 17:43:19
You can debate all you want about Trump being able to pardon himself, but until you provide evidence that he can, which I say he can not be his own judge of a crime unless he confesses and resigns.

I know it was a question Nixon's lawyers made at the time, but they conceded the idea of going forward with such a process.
jergul
large member
Wed Nov 27 17:45:05
"pardon himself from a criminal act"

What about the much more likely blanket pardon like:

"for all offenses against the United States which he has committed or may have committed or taken part in"

Particularly if an impeachment conviction would have to be rushed and could only be served days before the president left office anyway.

Are you certain the Senate would still convict? Or that Congress would bother impeaching?
jergul
large member
Wed Nov 27 17:47:04
What would physically stop Trump from pardoning himself?

Its not a debate. Trump can make decrees for as long as he is in office. A self-pardon is a decree.

*Flourish felt pen*

Done!
TJ
Member
Wed Nov 27 17:51:56
I'm certain if it was a high crime deserving per the Constitution that bipartisanship would be assured in the Senate.
TJ
Member
Wed Nov 27 17:54:47
It would be invalid. It won't happen.
patom
Member
Wed Nov 27 18:31:16
Don't be surprised if he finds or creates something to declare a National Emergency for. Then declaring Martial Law with himself as sole power. Then he can declare himself whatever he wants. That is if the country doesn't have a revolution.
jergul
large member
Thu Nov 28 00:18:47
TJ
So some presidential decrees are invalid from the moment they are signed?

Can I make calls on which ones after evaluating to what extent they are in compliance with fundamental rules?

If not me, then who?

===================

Somebody is going to have to pardon him. The Mueller report was pretty clear that Trump's immunity from indiction only lasts for as long as he is in office.

===================

Patom
He could do that. But its not the basis for long-term power as executive decrees that are clearly invalid can be overturned following processes outlined in your Constitution.
patom
Member
Thu Nov 28 05:07:56
jergul, Not if he seizes absolute power. The question will be if he can gain control of the military.
I highly doubt if you will see a peaceful transfer of power. I have visions of him having to be dragged out of the Office kicking and screaming all the way to the curb.
jergul
large member
Thu Nov 28 05:18:45
Patom
I don't see it. I do however see Trump or Pence giving out a pardon to Trump.

Pence could do it by Trump stepping down from power for 30 seconds, then returning to power after acting president Pence signed the pardon.
TJ
Member
Thu Nov 28 11:39:40
He absolutely can't pardon himself once the impeachment process has begun and if he had before it wouldn't stop impeachment. If he had already done so the public would know, nor can he pardon himself from State law.

The Constitution doesn't speak to him being able to pardon himself or not, but it does speak to impeachment and if he tried he would be admitting guilt of a crime or to commit one in the future. As I've previously said, Nixon's lawyers considered the possibility as others. Pardoning himself doesn't take away the right of Congress to impeach while he is in office. No crime worthy of impeachment-no impeachment.

The Chief Justice would preside over the impeachment Senate hearings.

What the Democratic party(if you can call it that these days) fears the most is the catalyst that is going to re-elect Trump just as it did in 2016. Hate is destructive to any worthy cause.

The world has become very strange and it isn't simply because of Trump. It is because of the numerous radical pathology's around the planet.

Speculation and hearsay.
patom
Member
Thu Nov 28 11:52:15
The world has indeed become very strange with Trump empowering the radical right. Not much to speculate about.
TJ
Member
Thu Nov 28 11:55:13
The other side of the fence isn't the problem.
TJ
Member
Thu Nov 28 11:57:19
Everyone has a choice. You don't think the radical left is a problem? Anything radical is the problem.
patom
Member
Thu Nov 28 14:06:23
What is the radical left asking for?

What is the radical right asking for?
TJ
Member
Thu Nov 28 15:20:32
You tell me since I'm not asking for anything. I was fortunate to have excellent mentors that instilled the importance of independence.

I was taught to be careful for what I wished for from and early age and it is good advice for the ages. I came from a meager beginnings and have never expected anything from anyone.

I'm positive if things had been different I would think differently today. It is normal to think differently from one another.
patom
Member
Thu Nov 28 15:35:16
patom
Member
Thu Nov 28 15:39:28
I too have never had to ask anyone for much. I have worked hard and fortunately my body held out.

My mentors also taught me to not look down on those less fortunate than yourself.
TJ
Member
Thu Nov 28 16:18:54
"My mentors also taught me to not look down on those less fortunate than yourself."

That is something I didn't need to be taught by others. It was in my root via experience and my driving force.
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