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Utopia Talk / Politics / I got erection
Daemon
Member
Sat Nov 30 06:32:00
http://www...tler-pageant-winner/a-51458025

28.11.2019

Italy busts neo-Nazi ring, 'Miss Hitler' pageant winner

Prosecutors in Sicily have announced 19 arrests, exposing a nationwide network of would-be fascist militants. Police have uncovered weapons, explosives, and extremist propaganda in a series of raids.


Italian police have arrested at least 19 people in connection with a militant neo-Nazi ring, national media reported on Thursday. Although the investigation was based in Sicily, the suspects hail from all over the country.

One of the arrested included a 26-year-old Milan resident who had been the winner of an online beauty competition called "Miss Hitler." She also spoke at an extreme-right conference in Portugal last August that attempted to unite the so-called "National Socialist movements" of Italy, Portugal, Spain, and France.


During the operation — led by prosecutors in Caltanissetta, Sicily, and dubbed "Black Shadows" — police undercovered troves of weapons, explosives, Nazi memorabilia and texts praising fascist dictators Adolf Hitler and Benito Mussolini, in a series of raids carried out across Italy.

On top of possible weapons charges, promoting fascism is a crime in Italy.

The supposed leader of the group is a 50-year-old public employee from the city of Padua, in the northeastern region of Veneto. She was not known to authorities prior to her detention, police have said, adding that they recovered anti-Semitic material from her home.

Another suspect is an offender with multiple convictions and ties to the 'Ndrangheta, the elusive Calabrian mafia, one of the richest organized crime syndicates in the world and by some estimates responsible for 3% of Italy's GDP. The man, Italian media said, had turned informant for the police against the mafia but was apparently acting as the chief "trainer" for the violence the neo-Nazi group hoped to carry out. Specific center-left politicians were named as possible targets.

The group used a Russian chat app to communicate and try to avoid detection, Italian daily Corriere della Sera reported. A Russian social media platform called VK was also used to host the "Miss Hitler" competition.
Daemon
Member
Sat Nov 30 07:49:53
http://pbs...AEq1W4?format=png&name=900x900
Paramount
Member
Sat Nov 30 07:53:43
”promoting fascism is a crime in Italy”

I think this will trigger Rugian. Rugian is a strong advocate for freedom to express opinions.


” The supposed leader of the group [...] was not known to authorities prior to her detention [...] they recovered anti-Semitic material from her home”

How is it possible that a leading anti-semite slipped under the radar?
Paramount
Member
Sat Nov 30 07:58:10
Daemon
Member Sat Nov 30 07:49:53
http://pbs...AEq1W4?format=png&name=900x900



I think the 1st and the 5th from the left looks best, and maybe the last four or five. Well, that almost all of them.
Habebe
Member
Fri Dec 13 22:28:10
1. That seems insane to me to ban a salute and political freedom...then on top of it communism seems a ok but Racism is demonized ....very strange.

This isnthw sort of thing that makes Americans look at Europe as not a land of the free. I mean what is the point of democracy/ republic if you can only choose from who the ruling elite deem ok to vote for...
yankeessuck123
Member
Sat Dec 14 11:40:47
https://skepchick.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/HcuZIT5w8xJLMXoISDexG1GNz5Dj7xHO_QGeueMtdPU.jpg

^ seems like a good, brief response to your concerns
jergul
large member
Sat Dec 14 12:19:26
Let me try.

Think of it as a "stand your ground" law for democracy. If something not only is incompatible, but a threat to democracy, then it is not allowed.

Rugian
Member
Sun Dec 15 11:34:11
jergul/ys123,

Then advocating for communism should be banned. Today.
jergul
large member
Sun Dec 15 12:20:17
Ruggy
Communism is just a tool in the same way capitalism is. By your logic, advocating for capitalism should also be banned.

Norway currently owns 2.5% of all public stocks in Europe (excluding Norway), 1% of all listed stocks globally and the public owns most of the means of production nationally.

http://www...ektor/statistikker/offregn/aar

This is insanely high for a population of 5.5 million.

Collective ownership of the means of production is nice. You do not have to give everything to billionaires you know.
jergul
large member
Sun Dec 15 12:27:30
Government spending (including income transfers) currently accounts for 60% of GNI.

There are other ways of doing stuff you see.

TJ
Member
Sun Dec 15 13:01:14
jergul:

It is no secret that oil and gas extraction remain the dominant industry.

How do you reconcile that with Norway's position on climate change?

In other words the legal status of oil and gas exploitation in the Arctic and its effects on the climate.

Norway seems to be entrenched in its own hypocrisy. I have no squabble with Norway's collective ownership.


Rugian
Member
Sun Dec 15 13:08:53
jergul,

I didn't think that I would have to explain the difference between communism and socialism with you.

I have literally dozens of examples of capitalism and multiparty liberal democracy being able to function side-by-side. Can you say the same for communism?
jergul
large member
Sun Dec 15 14:43:32
TJ
The oil and gas extraction industry employs 50 thousand people. 2,74 million people are employed in Norway.

Emissions from oil and gas extraction amount to 20% of total CO2 equivalent emissions in Norway.

I reconcile this with thinking that these emissions are and must be included in Norway's climate obligations. There are plans to electrify production and reduce emissions by 35% (right now, natural gas turbines are powering production. The goal is to switch to hydroelectric).

The other big emission sector is transportation. Norway is the global leader in electric car sales (that use hydroelectric power).

The only field in the Artic is Goliath. CO2 emissions there were 50 thousand tons last year. Its natural gas, not oil and it pipes the natural gas to shore.

We are too slow, we are not particularly hypocritical.

Ruggy
Your mistake is viewing capitalism and communism as ideologies instead of economic tools.

Communism's defining characteristic is ownership of the means of production. It does not stand in contradiction to democracy (nor even communism's end goal - which is best termed as direct democracy).

Most corporations follow a command economy structure internally within the various branches of the corporation. A communist style structure is quite adept at tax reduction to name one example. Other is of course the just in time principle that is really only possible in a command structure.

Amazon is probably the best example of a planned economic model in practice. But other multi-nationals are not far behind.
TJ
Member
Sun Dec 15 15:02:41
jergul:

I found the following link rather interesting.

"Not particularly hypocritical" Not sure this link will work so if it screws up the thread you can delete. Surely from the perspective of Norway that climate change is a threat to a lot more than democracy.

http://pos...6088093113023112003068&EXT=pdf
Rugian
Member
Sun Dec 15 15:16:59
jergul,

I'm uninterested in debating matters of academia here. Nor am I interested in the inventive (to say the least) conflation of internal corporate structure with communism.

The practical evidence is self evident. Capitalism and liberal democracy work remarkably well together, and when capitalism is subjected to a certain degree of regulation to stifle its worst impulses it tends to be an amazing force for good in this world (obviously we probably disagree on the exact degree of regulation required, but the basic concept holds).

Communism, in every place where it has attempted to be implemented, is a total failure at anything above a purely local level, and is completely incompatible with liberal democracies, resulting in the inevitable abolition of the latter. In such cases, the deaths of tens of millions tends to be the end-product.

If we are to start banning speech that is held to be a threat to the liberal democratic order, advocates of communism must be banned and jailed posthaste.
jergul
large member
Sun Dec 15 15:20:35
TJ
There is neither parliamentary, nor popular support for further oil and gas exploitation in the Norwegian Arctic.

My personal feeling are very strong on the matter and go beyond climate awareness.

I fished in the Barents Sea and off Spitsbergen. think oil and gas incompatible is imcompatible with the fisheries.
jergul
large member
Sun Dec 15 15:28:46
Ruggy
Communism has been implemented in the same way capitalism has.

Its command economic structure is found in virtually all major multi-national corporation. Public ownership of the means of production is found virtually everywhere.

By Communist, where you thinking of the Socialist States in various countries?

Implemented Communism would be direct democracy after the mother of all bail-outs and has not been tried anywhere ever.

The premise tha capitalism's inherent contradictions would inevitably lead to its destruction proved invalid as capitalist robber barons where curbed by more and more regulation.

Marx was a predeterminist because he did not believe exploitive capitalism could be tamed. It could, and with the taming, other outcomes than violent revolt on a global scale became possible.
TJ
Member
Sun Dec 15 15:32:39
jergul:

It extends far beyond being incompatible with fisheries. I'm well aware of your fishing experiences.

Should personal feelings get in the way of the reality being projected and promoted by Norway?

Personally, I could care less what Norway does, but there are some underlying intrinsic variables, all of which, are geographical and constitutional.

I don't even give a crap about this thread. :)

Habebe
Member
Sun Dec 15 16:07:36
I agree entirely with rugians post.

It also highlights my earlier point why is Fascism banned due to not being compatible with liberal democratic republics but communism is Gucci.

My personal opinion is that it has a lot to do with Europe's dealings with Facism in the past.

Also history shows facism actually works as long as the military campaigns are fruitful while communism tends to either evolve into pseudo racism ( China) or eventually just crumbles.
jergul
large member
Mon Dec 16 04:53:31
Habebe
Well, if you think the Russians broke Communism, then look at the travesty they made of capitalism.

Russians take ideas....

And break them.

(The Socialist States never imagined themselves to be communist. Only someone completely unaware of that economic development theory would think Communism had been adopted by any state, anywhere).

TJ
I am having problems caring too. Meeting climate obligations is more inconvenient than actually troublesome. Worst case? Mass purchase of climate quotas internationally to offset over emissions here.

I still think we should electrify oil and gas production immediately if not before (realistically, for a 12.5% reduction in national CO2 equivalent emissions)

It is actually far more important that our Sovereign Fund has divested coal and is in the process of divesting from companies focused on upstream oil and gas production. Our parliament has instructed it to do that.

Starving the beast so to speak.
jergul
large member
Wed Dec 18 02:35:13
TJ
Production continues to fall. "Intermediate consumption" is what electrification would fix.

"The Norwegian oil- and gas industry had its second good year in a row because of higher oil- and gas prices in 2018. However, production is still decreasing, and the extraction industries are not showing signs of preparing for increased activity in the future. The support industries on the other hand seem to be betting on a slightly brighter tomorrow."

"In recent years reduced costs, measured by intermediate consumption, have contributed to this increase. However, in 2018 intermediate consumption has gone up by 14 percent"

"Despite the extraction industries having a great year on the income side employment remained stable compared to the previous year. This is in keeping with the sectors focus on downsizing in recent years, and bears witness that this year’s result might be a swan song for the extraction industries rather than a return to previous greatness."

http://www...-for-the-extraction-industries
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