Utopia Talk / Politics / Iran shot down the plane

Habebe Member	Thu Jan 09 17:37:54 Well that seems to be the current consensus now they "accidentally" shot missiles at the plane...accidentally....like when your girl "tripped, fell and landed on his dick"
Wrath of Orion Member	Thu Jan 09 17:41:28 There are two ways to interpret accidentally here. Which are you taking issue with (or is it both)?
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 09 17:45:14 Iran trusted Trump's word that he would strike back, thus it is mostly Trump's fault
Habebe Member	Thu Jan 09 17:50:44 Wrath, I find it hard to believe they accidentally shot missiles at a civilian plane. Tw, You blame Trump for for the 1st world war as well so...I mean seriously Iran murders civilians on a civilian plane and you blame Trump.....your grasping even for you.
Wrath of Orion Member	Thu Jan 09 17:53:12 So you're saying they intended to fire the missile and they knew it was a civilian plane (with lots of Iranians onboard) when they did so?
Habebe Member	Thu Jan 09 17:54:39 Wrath, Well , how would one think it was a military plane?
Wrath of Orion Member	Thu Jan 09 17:56:52 I'm not looking to debate you. I was only seeking clarification on your position.
Habebe Member	Thu Jan 09 18:01:43 Well, 1. You dont accidentally shoot missiles that just randomly hit a plane....so then were left with 2. Im supposing they are claiming they accidentally shot it claiming they thought it was a.military plane but that seems absurd too. That said, evidence as of now is limited but either way I mean how do you accidentally shoot down a plane? I initially figured it was plane error of some sort.
jergul large member	Thu Jan 09 18:04:48 You would think it a military plane if: 1. Its transponder information was not showing on what you were looking at. 2. It was amongst other civilian traffic in a manner similar to how the IDF hid behind a Russian plane. 3. If you knew that Trump had promised a very fast, very hard attack if your country attacked US bases. 4. If you knew your country had just attacked US bases. 5. If you knew that in any conflict, taking out enemy air defences is job number 1 for the attacker. 6. You are the enemy air defences from an attacker perspective. ================= Shit happens when people are, or think they are, in a combat zone.
Wrath of Orion Member	Thu Jan 09 18:05:06 I can imagine scenarios where an accidental fire happened while the targeting system was engaged. Whether or not those are actually realistic is something I'm not qualified to answer. However, we do appear to have several people on this board who have operated just about every known weapon system in the world. I'm sure they can fill in the details.
Rugian Member	Thu Jan 09 18:05:54 Habebe, While it certainly not beyond the realm of possibility for Iran to murder its own citizens in order to achieve its policy goals (how much can 130 Iranian lives be worth when the regime just casually gunned down thousands in the streets), it's entirely possible to mistake a civilian aircraft for military in certain circumstances. Especially if you're rushed in making that determination.
jergul large member	Thu Jan 09 18:06:56 You can read up on the explanation given for why the US shot down an Iranian airliner in 1988 and apply that thinking to the Iranian launcher crew.
Forwyn Member	Thu Jan 09 18:33:26 AKA probably not carrying civilian traffic monitoring
Habebe Member	Thu Jan 09 18:49:32 It left from an Iranian airport... As for 1988....it was over 30 years ago. It could have been an accident but that's entirley on them for fucking up...it was mostly Canadians so let Trudeau handle that. Jergul, Did he say " very fast"? Does the US routinely use civilian airplanes that leave from Iranian airports?
Sam Adams Member	Thu Jan 09 19:08:11 "You can read up on the explanation given for why the US shot down an Iranian airliner in 1988 and apply that thinking to the Iranian launcher crew." Lulz. Not really comparable. That one was coming out of an enemy mostly military airfield. This one was coming out of their own mostly civil airfield. This one is a much worse mistake. Hilariously retarded even.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Jan 09 19:09:45 If you even consider vincennes a mistake at all. That one was a pretty legit shootdown, being that vincennes was in action against iran at the time.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Jan 09 21:29:48 keep in mind these are people who shoot each other at weddings and stampede others to death at funerals
smart dude Member	Thu Jan 09 21:29:52 B-but Seb said it was engine failure
Dukhat Member	Fri Jan 10 00:06:43 It was reported as engine failure and now it is being reported as a missile attack. Important part is that each was based on the best information available which was updated. Just because a guess happened to be right this one time, doesn't mean the method at which you arrived at your conclusions is somehow vindicated you stupid fuck.
Habebe Member	Fri Jan 10 00:16:21 Well in all fairness it was an educated guess. One in which he was ultimately right even against mainstream media saying other wise at the time. Give credit where credit is due.
smart dude Member	Fri Jan 10 00:35:01 "happened to be right" lol. There are a million different ways that a plane can crash and 95% of people "guessed" correctly. Okay.
Paramount Member	Fri Jan 10 00:57:54 " Iran shot down the plane" I don't know. Where is the solid proof and evidence. As long as there is no concrete evidence, I'm gonna say it was either an accident or, the plane was downed by the US, Israel or Saudi Barbaria. The US has a history of shooting down airlines. They have also been threatening to attack Iran, even civilian targets. The US have also been blaming Iran for everything and anything lately. The Israel has a history of carrying out acts of terrorism against Iran. Assassinating scientists in Iran for an example. They have also threatened to attack Iran. Saudi Barbaria is perhaps the biggest terrorist nation after the US and Israel. They have a history of carrying out terrorist attacks. In 2001 for an example, 19 Saudi Barbarians crashed two airliners in the US. They could easily have smuggled explosives onto the Ukrainian plane. Saudi Barbaria is also very hostile against Iran.
smart dude Member	Fri Jan 10 01:01:51 Paramount's obsession with America and Israel continues. Yes America did it. Yes Israel did it to. The accident happened in Iran. But there isn't any possibility that Iran did it. Maybe Bigfoot did it? He's American, after all. So that's way more likely than Iran doing it.
jergul large member	Fri Jan 10 01:12:30 Habebe The IDF demonstrated the tactic of hiding amongst neutral aircraft a few years ago. Did we not all have the impression that Trump was going to hit back hard immediately? So did the missile operators Ali and Mohammed. Sammy Are you saying that the US lacks the capability to attack were the plane was shot down? If so, then Ali and Mohammed fucked up. Your point? The only interesting thing here is how Iran will deal with issue moving forward. We already know it will be with more grace than the US in 1988. Thats a given.
Dukhat Member	Fri Jan 10 01:18:57 "Mainstream Media" is wrong bullshit narrative again. Grow a brain.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 01:27:50 Habebe: It wasn't an educated guess. As I've pointed out in the other thread. Not did I say it was definitely engine failure, I said it wasn't wise to rule that out at the time given the available evidence.
smart dude Member	Fri Jan 10 01:38:39 If we waited to rule out everything all the time, we would never have opinions about anything. We would never be able to make assumptions, which are pragmatically necessary for making decisions and taking action. My co-worker walked into the office all wet. Is it raining outside or did he swim to work? My employee smells like booze all the time and his eyes are red. Is he drinking on the job, or is he simply deyhdrated and accidentally falls into a vat of whisky every day? I'll just wait for the facts to come in durrrrrrrrr. How can you possibily call yourself a scientist when all you do is wait for absolute proof of things, which doesn't actually exist in nature? Everything is a mixture of evidence, context and assumptions. Drawing lines is arbitrary when forming an opinion, but necessary for taking action. This a political thread full of nobodies who don't have authority or ability to take action, but we can guess because THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE DO.
jergul large member	Fri Jan 10 01:49:58 SD Seb knows that intiution is both incredibly powerful in forming opinion, and incredibly inaccurate. I felt slightly chastigated when seb pointed this out. I intuitively felt: yah, a missile defence fuck up. More details gave a better basis for a evidence based conclusion. So yah, Seb was doing that science thing of his.
smart dude Member	Fri Jan 10 01:58:17 Yeah I get it. It's just Seb is the ultimate no-fun-at-parties type of person because he believes you can't talk about anything unless you know 100% about everything. Which seems incompatible with science. Which is maybe why he left science so he could go into middle management.
smart dude Member	Fri Jan 10 02:01:06 "More details gave a better basis for a evidence based conclusion." Is my finger on the red button? If no, then who cares. If yes, then I don't have time to wait for all the facts. It's easy to be a useless pedant and say everybody is wrong all the time because they don't have all the facts.
Paramount Member	Fri Jan 10 02:04:50 Apparently there is a new video clip of the airplane. This one claims to show a missile hit the plane. I wonder, where does this clip come from? If an Iranian was standing there with his iPhone and filming the sky at night the exact moment when a missile hits an airplane, how credible is it that the Iranian then sends the clip to the New York Times or to the CIA? lol Or is this a fake video clip made by the CIA or the Mossad?
jergul large member	Fri Jan 10 02:10:48 Para You would probably want to use chinese smartphone brandnames to describe what went down.
Paramount Member	Fri Jan 10 02:25:10 Okay, let's just say it was a smartphone.
jergul large member	Fri Jan 10 02:27:50 To answer your question. It was a special night and people did have reason to believe something might be going down in the sky that night. So yah. Smart phones at the ready.
Allahuakbar Member	Fri Jan 10 02:50:24 Occam's razor: One Israeli did the false flag attack and another one filmed it.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 03:35:18 Smart Dude: Oh you can talk about it. I encourage it. And I was participating. You were the one that straight out ruled out engine failure.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 03:37:15 Jergul: The lack of footage was the main thing that made me doubt an accidental shoot down as a near certainty. I'm surprised that we didn't get that sooner tbh, but I suppose national feelings are running high and many Iranians don't want to be unpatriotic.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jan 10 04:08:35 Jergul If you want to use generic Shia names Ali and Hossein is what you are going for.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jan 10 04:12:57 >>SD Seb knows that intiution is both incredibly powerful in forming opinion, and incredibly inaccurate.<< Well SD has a point that perhaps isn't fully expressed. We (seb included) apply this "let's wait for the facts" selectively. Sometimes "we" are stoic and demand robustness and other times "we" have no issues casting judgment despite lacking facts. Over time patterns have emerged.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jan 10 04:30:41 "Seb is the ultimate no-fun-at-parties type of person because he believes you can't talk about anything unless you know 100%" You have apparently had no discussions with seb about SJW related issues. All of the above goes straight out of the window. He has on multiple occasions made clear that he has no issues with ambiguity, especially when it comes to policy making and military interventions. To the Point where he actually almost verbatim said what you just wrote about me (in relations to interventions and lacking knowledge), it was only a few months ago. So, there you go, there is a selective application of rigor (which I have blamed him for multiple times) that everyone engages in to some degree. Me too.
jergul large member	Fri Jan 10 05:15:22 Nimi I was opting for the dance like a butterfly, sting like a bee cultural reference. But lets just assume one of the operators was Azerbaijani and call it a generic day (I have now learned what common Azerbaijani given names are:). Seb I don't see the basis for a cover-up here. The air defence branch has limited political pull. I think it the normal language barrier giving the lag.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jan 10 05:37:40 Jergul Ít is a fair reference to make. Not surprisingly my Azari grand father (mothers side) was named Hossein and his first son named Ali.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 07:43:06 Nim: The thing I took issue with is the reason for discarding one possibility wasn't well founded. This is not the same thing as saying "wait and see". It's called chewing the fat.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 07:46:16 Also Nim, the point about interventions is the future is unknowable so to wait for certainly is a positive choice to never act to forestall an attrocity. Which is fundamentally a normative choice dressed up as a positive evidence based approach. There is no such constraint on the plane issue. Not do I have a problem with people forming opinions on this matter, but the reasoning behind such opinions can be discussed can't it?
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 07:49:22 Jergul: Less formal cover up. I mean more that people might think twice before posting images they think show their country shot down a jet. Even if they felt commitment to truth outweighed patriotism, it might at best lead to social ostracism, aggression from those feeling it was unpatriotic a possiblity, and at worst case a visit from the bshjis.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jan 10 07:49:37 Seb Member Wed Jan 08 04:45:46 "So I shall reserve judgement for now." AKA, let's wait for the facts.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Jan 10 08:42:50 Lol@seb Lol@cuckhat Both were supremely wrong and now both are whining and butthurt. Bahahahaha. You know you should just man up and admit you were wrong... this would go much easier for you.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 09:04:13 Yes. I will wait for the facts, not an instruction to others that they should. My point was never that Smart Dude was premature, but that the reasoning wasn't as sound as he might think.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 09:05:08 Sam: Like I said, small missile - plane landed in a single piece.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jan 10 09:29:24 >>Also Nim, the point about interventions is the future is unknowable so to wait for certainly is a positive choice to never act to forestall an attrocity. Which is fundamentally a normative choice dressed up as a positive evidence based approach.<< Another angle is that interventions and specifically failed interventions have consequences in the forms of failed states, bombed out cities and dead people, while laymen predictions on UP about the cause for a tragedy does not. Not that I hold you responsible, but there is no moral equivalency in fucking it up. My response was directed to what SD wrote. That you indeed accept (imo obscene levels) ambiguity casting judgment on certain issues, in my opinion issues far more important to get right. Things that carry a cost for not acting as you may put it. The pattern that emerges are that these issues align with whatever outcome you desired in the first place. I wish my reserved judgment oin this thread was because I am so much better seb. The truth is that I am emotionally invested the past, present and future of Iran. I am very biased in my desired outcome.
jergul large member	Fri Jan 10 09:40:49 Seb I worded that poorly. I meant that the usual dynamic of "look@Americandog air object falling" would lead to fast posting, the lack of political clout from the air defence force would stop deposting, and language barriers would slow things reaching the msm. Nimi I would just jot down that to what we know about the future for any contemplation of future interventions.
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 10:50:00
Seb Member	Fri Jan 10 10:52:41 Nim: I think a decision ought to be taken with the best available information at the time a decision needs to be taken. A bunch of people speculating on the cause of a plane crash isn't really a decision. Jergul: Good point.
TJ Member	Fri Jan 10 10:58:43 "Did we not all have the impression that Trump was going to hit back hard immediately?" NO, not immediately and fortunately so. Iran leadership knew exactly what was at stake. The remainder had been clearly established even though firing those missiles from Iranian sovereign territory could have been considered an act of war against Iraq.
Forwyn Member	Fri Jan 10 11:16:20 "It was reported as engine failure" Who reported it as an engine failure? And who continues to do so? "Official statements" have as much default basis in truth as those taken from your local crackhead panhandler.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Jan 10 13:25:52 "Seb Member Fri Jan 10 09:05:08 Sam: Like I said, small missile " Rofl!!! You spent a day trying to justify engine failure and then said it might be a manpad once. It was of course niether. Lol not only were you utterly and completely wrong, but you are now pretending all that didnt happen despite all your posts still existing. You are like a leftist, possibly more retarded, version of trump.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Jan 10 13:42:31 Seb Member Wed Jan 08 08:06:25 Just after takeoff from a city airport, over urban area at night. No video or reports of missile, video of plane seems to show it in steady flight while on fire, and an air defence SAM would normally cause complete breakup quite rapidly so far engine failure looks somewhat credible Lol oops
jergul large member	Fri Jan 10 14:20:12 TJ A figure of speech. I did not actually think Trump would retaliate. I did not imagine Iran would demonstrate capability by clustering the craters so nicely. Elegant. You have to divert money from the wall to build aircraft creches and other protective infrastructure in Dubai and other bases before a solid attack is on the table. Russia took out 30 Georgian main battle tanks with a single ballistic missile back in that war. Storage facilities are dream targets for current generation ballistic missiles.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Jan 10 14:31:27 "Russia took out 30 Georgian main battle tanks with a single ballistic missile back in that war. " More lol
jergul large member	Fri Jan 10 14:38:21 Sammy You were too confident it was a missile. Seb hedged. You play poker? Then you should get what you did wrong.
jergul large member	Fri Jan 10 14:39:00 Sammy There were in storage. No one was killed. So yah, a bit lulzy.
Rugian Member	Fri Jan 10 14:42:02 Speaking of the Georgia War, habebe if you needed any further proof that its possible for a Third World shithole to accidentally shoot down it's own planes: "Russian Performance in the Russo-Georgian War Revisited Russia lost six planes in Georgia, but only two appeared to be losses to Georgian forces. Friendly forces likely shot down three or four of the six aircraft Russia lost in the war. “Identify Friend or Foe” (IFF) systems didn’t work, airspace management was a mess, and having Soviet legacy platforms on both sides led to confusion on the battlefield. As General Vladimir Shamanov recalled, “In South Ossetia the IFF system in fact did not work, and it was very hard for our units to recognize whose equipment they were seeing—ours or Georgian.” Russian air defense was far more effective against its own air force than all the upgraded kit Georgia had bought." http://war...-russo-georgian-war-revisited/
jergul large member	Fri Jan 10 16:41:33 A very good article Ruggy. Nice find.
Habebe Member	Fri Jan 10 17:55:33 Well Iran declares they did nothing not even accidentally so i guess we will just see what happens.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Jan 10 18:51:08 "jergul large member Fri Jan 10 14:38:21 Sammy You were too confident it was a missile. " I get paid to either be right or say i dont know. If i speak up, i am right. I have spoken. It helps to be smart and educated on the subject. You should try that some time. Lol
Sam Adams Member	Fri Jan 10 18:58:42 "Seb Member Wed Jan 08 17:59:24 Uncontained engine failure could do it. Broken bit of turbine fan (particularly if poorly maintained) can rupture the fuel tank. Engines are designed to try and contain them but it's not always successful. It'd look a lot like this." "Seb Member Fri Jan 10 09:05:08 Like I said, small missile" Lol oops
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 10 22:05:34 supposedly Iran has admitted they shot down the plane due to human error hopefully by human error they mean Hannity
Habebe Member	Fri Jan 10 22:57:33 Now I seen Iran say it was not shot by a.missile...but they fucked up the plane crash area and glommed the black boxes denying an independent party to look at th and assured that they will find it to be something else like pilot error. The West like Trudeau claim that all current data suggests it was shot down by Iran.
Habebe Member	Fri Jan 10 22:58:48 Now, knowing they were attacking military bases why they didn't declare a no fly zone.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 10 23:11:30 " A sad day. Preliminary conclusions of internal investigation by Armed Forces: Human error at time of crisis caused by US adventurism led to disaster Our profound regrets, apologies and condolences to our people, to the families of all victims, and to other affected nations. " ~ Javar Zarif, Foreign Minister, Iran
jergul large member	Fri Jan 10 23:27:35 Habebe The launch operators Mohammed and Ali you mean, when you say Iran shot down the plane? Would that independent party be the US or an American company? You use the word independent funny. Closing the airspace is a valid point. Iran must have considered it. I would not have done it. It is very dramatic and undermines to point Iran was trying to convey about the strikes being of a limited nature. TW My goodness. Look. Adults.
Dukhat Member	Fri Jan 10 23:30:28 lol, Iran is so stupid, they are making Trump look good by comparison. That's a whole new level of retardation.
Habebe Member	Sat Jan 11 00:02:54 Tw, "Iran's civil aviation chief, however, said he was "certain" that the plane was not hit by a missile." http://www...amp/world-middle-east-51055219 Now they habe apparently changes there minds and claim it as an accident and blame the US....even though they did not call no fly zones which would have prevented this. Jergul, Not necessarily.It is common practice as I understand that in such cases an independent 3rd party in such disputed incidents.
Habebe Member	Sat Jan 11 00:04:22 Now seeing Canada and the UK calling for such an investigation to half assed cover their tail they finally admit it...after they vehemently denied it.
jergul large member	Sat Jan 11 00:21:43 Habebe Iran has already invited Canadian, French, and Ukrainian investigators. The Civil Aviation Cheif was clear on why he thought speculations on it being shot down did not make any sense. Changing positions as evidence becomes clear is completely rational. Why are you so unwilling to own that you did indeed assassinate a high ranking Iranian official? It heightened tensions dramatically. I think Iran chose correctly in not closing its airspace. Doing so would have seemed very escalatory. You cannot really be tribal on these kind of things. Your president has dictatorial powers abroad. Cheering him on is kow-towing to despotism.
Habebe Member	Sat Jan 11 00:27:06 Jeegul, who knows what they are saying, first they say absolutley not , now they say my bad... Of coirse your.going to side with them. You jabe at every turn. Every time they change there mind you praise their brilliance. It may have looked to be escalating things...maybe not. Regardless theyade a decision and the blood of those passengers lies soley on thete hands...it may not be equal to murder, but negligent homicide it is.
jergul large member	Sat Jan 11 00:39:03 On the hands of Muhammed and Ali you mean? I am sure the Chief of Civil Aviation did change his mind once new evidence became available. It is the rational thing to do. Or did you mean the blood is on their hand for not closing their airspace? Did you close your airspace based on terror warnings in the days before 9-11? Wow, I guess that blood is on your hands. Did Ukraine close its airspace during ongoing combat operations? Nope? I guess the blood is solely on their hands too. A chain of decision lead to the plane being shot down. The chain started with Trump deciding to assassinate a high ranking Iranian official (actually two it turns out. The attempt in Yemen failed). I am not siding with them. My interest here is seeing how the Iranians deal with the matter. It only seems like I am siding to you because you are so biased as to think neutrality is taking the side of someone else. With us or against us. Pfft.
Habebe Member	Sat Jan 11 00:53:27 Jergul, we did close down US airspace once the threat was taken serious. You yourself said " It was amongst other civilian traffic in a manner similar to how the IDF hid behind a Russian plane. 3. If you knew that Trump had promised a very fast, very hard attack if your country attacked US bases." You not bias? And yet you pick choose where your timeline starts. Why not mention escalating Irans escelating aggression leading up to the killing of solemani? Your literally blaming Trump for Iran shooting down a civilian plane and claiming unbias?do you realize how ridiculous this sounds?
jergul large member	Sat Jan 11 01:45:29 Habebe The intel was there. You should have taken it serious earlier and shut down the airspace. Blood on your hands? See the fallacy with your swiping judgements? Feel free to establish that it was Iranian aggression. What we know is that Iraqis fired rockets that killed a contractor, the US bombed Iraqis in retaliation, Iraqis demonstrated outside one of the most heavily fortified US embassies on the planet, then the US killed an Iranian. Suleimani was in bagdad to discuss concerns about anti-Iranian demonstrations with the Iraqi PM btw. Even if you think Iran was involved in the rocket attack (which was just a hail mary harrassment thing anyway, with very little chance of causing casualties), and we start the timeline from there, then all you do is dilute Trump's personal responsibility a little more than is the case now. But if you like, we can start the timeline with the CIA putsch that overthrew Iran's democratic elected government in the 1950s. Trump shares some, but not all, of the blame. Bad things happen in states of heightened tension. You do not have any problems assigning partial blame to Iran for the civilian plane that was shot down in 1988, right? Well there you go then. Iran should definitely pay compensation and I am sure it will. I do not see any US liability in the matter. But we are speaking of moral, not legal, responsibility and how it should be divided.
jergul large member	Sat Jan 11 01:56:47 "Noble people of Iran With the utmost regret and sorrow, hours ago I was informed of the outcome of the General Staff of the Armed Forces’ investigation into the Ukrainian passenger plane crash. In the atmosphere of threats and intimidation by the aggressive American regime against the Iranian nation after the martyrdom of General Qasem Soleimani, and in order to defend ourselves against possible attacks by the American Army, the Armed Forces of the Islamic Republic of Iran were on full alert, which unfortunately led to this terrible catastrophe taking the lives of dozens of innocent people because of human error and mistaken shooting. The Islamic Republic of Iran is deeply sorry by this disastrous mistake, and I extend my deepest condolences to the families of the victims of this tragic incident on behalf of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and instruct all related organs to take all necessary measures to compensate and sympathise with the bereaved families. I also express my deep condolences and sympathy of the Iranian government to the nations, governments and families of non-Iranian victims. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs will be in full consular cooperation to identify and return the bodies of victims to their families. This painful accident is not something that can be easily overlooked. Further investigation is needed to identify all the causes and roots of this tragedy and prosecute the perpetrators of this unforgivable mistake and inform the honourable people of Iran and the families of the victims about it. It is also necessary to adopt the required arrangements and measures to address the weaknesses of the country's defence systems to make sure such a disaster is never repeated. Again, I extend my condolences to the families of the victims of this painful accident, praying for those who lost their lives and wishing their bereaved families patience and rewards." Poor Muhammed and Ali. There are going to be scapegoats. They should have thought of that before enlisting in a defence branch without much political clout (the IRG is undoubtably going to make a play for having the air defence branch transferred to its authority). But otherwise. Nice to see adults in the room.
jergul large member	Sat Jan 11 02:05:12 This is turning into a PR disaster. The narrative that Iran is fundamentally irrational and irresponsible is taking some serious hits.
Habebe Member	Sat Jan 11 02:14:39 Jergul, Oh well in that case, Obama should also apologize as well as many European leaders, everyime involved in the previous treaty as that treaty in Trumps eyes was dangerous and led to his decisions because he percieved a heightened threat...do you see how ridiculous that sounds?
Paramount Member	Sat Jan 11 02:40:55 This is so tragic. First the US kills Iran’s top commander. Then 178 people dies in a plane crash, 50 people dies at the funeral, and there was also a bus crash that killed 20 people (why is no one talking about the bus crash btw?). This was a bad week for Iran.
jergul large member	Sat Jan 11 03:22:17 Habebe What is rediculous to me is you not seeing that actions have far-reaching conscequences. Trump ordered something done. That triggered a snowball effect of unpredictable and dangerous possibilities. Which is precisely why none of the earlier administrations ordered it done. I do understand your desire to compartmentalize and to think every isolated executive decision (or tweet) has no bearing in the wider scheme of things. Let bygones be begones. It happened like over a week ago today. But that would be an incorrect world view. You seem to see that when assigning blame to foreign nations you don't like. There seems to be no end to the pattern recognition scheme you think those good for nothing evil doers are responsible for. Yet the no sense of accountability seems to exist when it comes to your own president (who, as I mentioned earlier, has despotic powers abroad). I find this to be profoundly naive to the point of childish.
Paramount Member	Sat Jan 11 03:38:07 "It is also necessary to adopt the required arrangements and measures to address the weaknesses of the country's defence systems to make sure such a disaster is never repeated." Will Iran get a more modern air defense system from Russia? Maybe training as well?
Habebe Member	Sat Jan 11 03:53:15 Jergul, Believing in the butterfly effect and assigning moral blame is entirley different. "There seems to be no end to the pattern recognition scheme you think those good for nothing evil doers are responsible for. " You are literally describing yourself towards Trump. I blame Irans government for the downed plane because THEY FUCKING SHOT IT DOWN WITH MISSILES. Simply put they are directly responsible for the plane. Even if it was an accident*. Could Trumps action habeve added to increased tensions? Yes. But its absurd to assign moral blame on his actions any more than Angela Merkals or Obama's. If the US had accidentally shot down that plane while they were targeting solemani it would there fault. They were in not in the heat of a defensive battle. If the US was actively invading them and in the midst of defending themselves theybshot down the plane you would may have a better argument. This was the effect of a premeditated and planned retaliation that they fucked up on and in this particular case should take the sole moral blame. I mean you have a civilian plane that left from one own Irans own airport....the sheer incompetence alone is absurd.
jergul large member	Sat Jan 11 03:53:26 I worriedly suspect that means transferring the air defence branch to the auspices of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard.
jergul large member	Sat Jan 11 04:10:13 Last was to para. Habebe Indeed. Iran is directly responsible. Trump is indirectly responsible. Do you have any trouble seeing this when the US shoots down civilian airliners? The air defence battery shot down the airliner because it approached a sensitive site in a way that was interpreted as indicative of a hostile asset. It had credible grounds to believe that a hostile asset might very well approach a sensitive site. No less so than the Vincenness had credible grounds to believe Iranian fighter aircraft might approach it. Iran is open about something going hideously wrong. They are owning their responsibility. How about man up and own your own?
The Patriot Member	Sat Jan 11 04:14:01 "Iran is open about something going hideously wrong. They are owning their responsibility." They *are finally owning their responsibility after initial denials until insurmountable evidence and pressure from other countries prevented them from doing so.* There fixed. Remember it was "impossible" for them to do something like this and it was already a "mechanical error."
jergul large member	Sat Jan 11 04:33:18 Patriot You are misreading what the Chief of Civil Aviation actually said. He thought speculations that the plane had been shot down was completely irrational - and gave the reasons for why he thought the speculations were irrational. He changed his position based on evidence. Which is the rational thing to do. There is absolutely no reason to think the Chief had any inside military information. He said what he believed at the time. Finally? How many hours has it been? 56? They reached their conclusion remarkably fast. Do you want to compare timelines on where the US was in its investigation with the Vincenness? "Both Iran’s Supreme Leader and President were informed on Friday about the cause of the downing of a Ukrainian airliner, after top military commanders concluded human error was the cause, according to semi-official state outlet Fars News Agency. Fars reported that after being informed of the error in the country’s air defense system, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei issued an urgent order to convene a National Security Council meeting to investigate the matter. Soon after the meeting concluded, he stressed the results of the investigation become public as soon as possible, Fars reported. It was then decided that Iran’s Armed Forces and President Hassan Rouhani draft statements to be released. Iran’s Armed Forces and the President released separate statements Saturday morning indicating that human error caused the crash of the Ukrainian airliner." CNN. They are being adults about this. You may want to revisit thoughts on the regime being inherently irresponsible. That narrative is leaking water badly.
Habebe Member	Sat Jan 11 04:39:45 Jergul, "Do you have any trouble seeing this when the US shoots down civilian airliners?" No. I mean I gurss i would say this should be a case by case basis but in General. I may the blame of the lusitania ( dated but great reference) on the US/UK...why? It was carrying military supplies in designated war zone. The air defence battery shot down the airliner because it approached a sensitive site in a way that was interpreted as indicative of a hostile asset" " So they accidentally/ negligently shot down a civilian plane leaving there own airport because they were on " High alert" because they decided to retaliate as well as not designate it as a no.fly zone.....this doesn't soumd evil it sounds incompetent a series of poor decision making. The US has done plenty wrong as has Trump as an individual. This is not one of those cases.
Paramount Member	Sat Jan 11 04:42:56 "They *are finally owning their responsibility after initial denials until insurmountable evidence and pressure from other countries prevented them from doing so.* There fixed. " Maybe Iran wanted to find out what the hell had happened, and how it happened, and who was responsible, before admitting guilt to anything.
Habebe Member	Sat Jan 11 04:44:57 Paramount, They declared it wngine failure and or mechanical error pretty fucking quick.
Paramount Member	Sat Jan 11 04:47:49 "jergul large member Sat Jan 11 02:05:12 This is turning into a PR disaster. The narrative that Iran is fundamentally irrational and irresponsible is taking some serious hits." lol 10/10
Paramount Member	Sat Jan 11 04:52:05 "Habebe Member Sat Jan 11 04:44:57 Paramount, They declared it wngine failure and or mechanical error pretty fucking quick" Maybe they were speculating? Also, wasn't it the Ukrainan embassy who claimed it was engine failure and/or mechanical error. As far as I know Iran didn't say shit except denying the claims of the US that they were responsible. But now after some investigations, when they have da FACTS ON THE TABLE, Iran acknowledges that they shot down the plane and that it was by mistake.
Habebe Member	Sat Jan 11 04:57:51 Also coincidentally after pressure from the world.commumity such as Canada. Its possible they would have admitted fault after just seeing the facts. That argument would hold more water if the same government hadn't claimed it " impossible" just before that. Again I think this demonstrates incompetence at all levels of the Iranian government more than anything.
The Patriot Member	Sat Jan 11 05:03:01 "You are misreading what the Chief of Civil Aviation actually said." Oh? "Iranian officials maintain it's 'scientifically impossible'" I'm sorry how much more definitive and conclusive do you have to be from 3 to 4 days ago. This is far from "irrational and speculative." "He changed his position based on evidence. Which is the rational thing to do." Uh huh, when pushed in a corner and reality hits... "They are being adults about this. You may want to revisit thoughts on the regime being inherently irresponsible." I haven't mentioned the actions of US, because it isn't a point for me right now. But quit being daft about how adamant Iran was being about them not having *any* responsibility about the plane from the get go. A "rational" person (Iran), would say as of right now we don't know exactly what happen and will investigate. Not from the get go "we didn't do it, its scientifically impossible." Spare me....
patom Member	Sat Jan 11 05:07:34 So wouldn't the rational thing be to ban all flights from or to Iran. Warn all who have air planes in the sky to not fly near Iran.
jergul large member	Sat Jan 11 05:08:55 "after pressure from the world.commumity such as Canada" lol, what a game changer. The Chief of the Iranian Civil Aviation gave his reasons. He was wrong. So was Seb. We have had that discussion. Taking full responsibility within days demonstrates a very adroit decision-making process. Though it underlines how little political capital the air defence branch has. I will bet money it is going to be transferred to the Revolutionary Guard. That will be fun. Think about it.
jergul large member	Sat Jan 11 05:11:54 Patriot Feel free to attribute the quote to the exact person who said it. So we can all mock him for being wrong. Hint: It was the Chief of Civil Aviation. He was wrong. It took 56 hours for Iran to publically take full responsibility. That is amazingly fast.
	show deleted posts