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Utopia Talk / Politics / Things POTUSes can do w/out be impeached
Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 23 07:28:10
...without getting impeached.

Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 23 07:54:22
Feel free to contribute to this list. I'll start.

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* Materially misrepresent a minor skirmish with another country's navy in order to significantly escalate a war in Southeast Asia ✅

* Conduct a major bombing campaign against another country - without that country's approval - and keep it secret from Congress for four full years ✅

* Sell weapons to Iran and use the proceeds to fund the Contras, in direct violation of the Boland Amendment ✅

* Accept lobbying money originating from agents of the People's Republic of China ✅

* Bomb another country in order to divert media attention away from that time you got your dick sucked ✅

* Using claims that are either highly negligent or outright lies, start a major war with another country that results in the destabilization of an entire region of the planet for decades ✅

* Commit acts of torture, I mean enhanced interrogation ✅

* House alleged enemy combatants in a Cuban detention center in order to permanently deprive them of due process rights ✅

* Conduct kidnappings of foreign nationals and send them to Third World prisons to rot in for years ✅

* Secretly establish a massive surveillance regime that targets nearly all American citizens and then lie to Congress about its existence ✅

* Run guns to Mexican drug cartels ✅

* Use the IRS to target opposition political groups ✅

* Conduct covert assassinations of American citizens with no due process in countries we are not actively at war with ✅

* Be Jimmy Carter ✅

* Release multiple enemy combatants in order to save a defector, directly breaking the law (2014 National Defense Authorization Act) in the process ✅

* Use your Environmental Protection Agency to lobby the public on political policies, directly breaking federal law in the process ✅

* Use your office to materially benefit your family by getting your son a cushy job on a Ukrainian oil board ✅

* Start a war with another country in a manner that willfully violates the War Powers Resolution ✅

* Commit a direct violation of the Affordable Care Act by failing to deliver moneys owed to the Treasury department ✅

* Use the FBI to conduct surveillance on the presidential campaign of the main opposition candidate ✅

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* Fail to spend money appropriated by Congress in a manner that draws the rebuke of the GAO (only if you're George Bush, Bill Clinton, or GWB) ✅

* Actually do spend money appropriated by Congress - ❌ IMPEACH FOR ABUSE OF POWER

------

* Use the court system in order to fight congressional subpoenas (only if you're not Donald Trump) ✅

* Use the court system in order to fight congressional subpoenas - ❌ IMPEACH FOR OBSTRUCTION
CrownRoyal
Member
Thu Jan 23 08:08:38
Wrong premise, this should have been "Things that Congress won't impeach a persident for".
jergul
large member
Thu Jan 23 08:09:28
Nixon and Clinton both cooperated with congressional subpoenas in their impeachment investigations and both.

They seemed to understand that in cases of Impeachment, Congress has exclusive powers.
CrownRoyal
Member
Thu Jan 23 08:28:29
well, leave it to Rugian, to draw precisely the wrong conclusion here. If I am reading this right, and I'd like to think that I am, instead of blaming Congress for all the times (both real and bullshit causes on his list) they failed to do their job, Rugian just want them to fail again, with donald
Habebe
Member
Thu Jan 23 08:32:34
I want check marks and x's ....start putting them bitches all over my posts.

Idk been watching a lot of asians today.
Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 23 08:34:30
CR -

Using your argument, why is Congress suddenly "stepping up" and "doing their job" now after all these years? Is it because they truly want to establish proper oversight from here on out? Would this therefore mean that the next president to follow Trump would be subject to such oversight and duly impeached if he did anything similar to the items in the list above?

Yeah right. He'd get away with it and more, as DC reverts back to the mean.

The truth is they just want to remove Trump because he's the non-Beltway president who is anathema to everything they stand for.

jergul -

If Congressional Democrats had wanted Trump to think that he'd get a fair shake in any sort of impeachment process, maybe their first words upon establishing a House majority should have been "we're going to impeach the motherfucker!"

He was going to be impeached no matter what. They were just searching for a crime to charge him with.
Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 23 08:35:39
In such an environment, why would he have cooperated with them any more than Nixon did.
CrownRoyal
Member
Thu Jan 23 08:36:54
"Using your argument, why is Congress suddenly "stepping up" and "doing their job" now after all these years? "

My argument (and it is really your argument if you think about it) is that they do not need a reason to do their job
Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 23 08:38:38
CR -

So "justice" is purely arbitrary then.

It's almost as if the crisis of faith in our government doesn't just relate to Trump, but relates to something well more fundamental (sorry to break the news to you tw).
hood
Member
Thu Jan 23 08:39:45
Your neck must be sore by now with all that quality fluffing. Do you need an ice pack?
Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 23 08:42:09
And here comes Hood with his usual quality contributions to the discussion.

I can't wait until Trump figures out that American Jews aren't likely to vote for him and completely turns on you fuckers.
CrownRoyal
Member
Thu Jan 23 08:44:26
"So "justice" is purely arbitrary then."


You list all the times you think justice wasn't served, and you demand it continues, with trump.



Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 23 08:44:57
That would require me to believe that Trump did anything wrong, so no.
Habebe
Member
Thu Jan 23 08:45:52
Well, the, impeachment is more about popularity than being in the wrong/ criminal.

Pelosi just bet that he was unpopular enough to be politically knocked out by this....but she is the vader to Hillary's Palpatine...

He won, they're bitter and he has been a smug ass about it so it snowballed....at least its entertainment.
CrownRoyal
Member
Thu Jan 23 08:47:31
"That would require me to believe that Trump did anything wrong, so no."

Exactly. But the constitution says your elected representatives determine what constitutes high crimes, not Rugian. Thats their job. If you believe they failed to perform it, on numerous occasions, to the detriment of the country, you should want to remedy that. Instead, you want this failure to go on
Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 23 08:50:35
CR -

Based both on what they don't impeach for and what they incorrectly do impeach on, I think it's safe to say the judgement of Congress is not just questionable, but outright non-credible.

Again, that whole fundamental "crisis of faith" thing in action.
CrownRoyal
Member
Thu Jan 23 08:53:48
"Based both on what they don't impeach for and what they incorrectly do impeach on, I think it's safe to say the judgement of Congress is not just questionable, but outright non-credible."

Just as Founders intended, with the whole House + senate process. But, if you feel that the whole process described in that text is flawed and should be scrapped, then this thread should also be deleted. Because why are you then upset about all the times past presidents werent impeached? It is a good thing, according to you, Congress' judgement is horrible. Ask jergul to put this thread out of its misery
Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 23 08:55:49
Habebe -

The desperation to overturn the results of the 2016 election is palpable. It took Democrats less than a year after gaining control of the House to push the impeachment nuke. Some of its chief architects were previously the biggest pushers of the now-discredited Russia narrative. Before that, it was the attempts to paint Trump as a racist because he has the audacity to believe in border security.

The outrage from losing the 2016 election never died off. If Trump ends up winning a second term, I can't even imagine what that meltdown is going to look like.

jergul
large member
Thu Jan 23 09:01:12
http://fiv...o-block-impeachment-witnesses/

There are essentially 3 parties in the US. Democrats, Republicans, and independents. Each are now equally large according to recent self-reporting in polls.

Independents are trending towards "more evidence and witnesses", currently at 60%.

Nevermind the oval office. The GOP might lose the Senate if the impeachment is handled poorly.

Ruggy
How overturn. Trump ran on a joint ticket. The office would go to his VP who ran on the ticket.
Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 23 09:06:20
CR -

I would have preferred that some presidents be impeached for at least some of the things on that list.

I don't feel that Trump has done anything impeachable.

In this case, House Democrats have flagrantly abused their powers by pursuing impeachment on spurious and political grounds. If we're being blunt, Senate Republicans are also failing to uphold the standards of their office by acting on political motives in the trial - by acquitting him, they will achieve the right outcome but through wrong means.

Congress is part of the swamp and needs to be drained accordingly. In part by conducting a wholesale reduction of the powers that the federal government as a collective wields vis-a-vis the states and people.
Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 23 09:08:29
jergul -

National polls are useless in determining the outcome of Senatorial elections.
hood
Member
Thu Jan 23 09:09:16
I am only meeting the quality standard set by the board and this thread. If you find it lacking, look inward.

You should also really look into why you're such a fucking coward. Please, go to your nearest Jewish coworker and say that exact same thing. In front of HR. And when you instead sit at your cozy desk stroking your shriveled dick over your vaunted internet accomplishments ("I PUT A DIRTY JEW IN HIS PLACE IN THE INTERNET I'M SUCH A BADASS!"), don't run from that feeling in your gut that tells you you're an unworthy coward. It's correct.


Have a nice day at the office! Hopefully Trump will let you bring in some knee pads?
CrownRoyal
Member
Thu Jan 23 09:09:43
"I would have preferred that some presidents be impeached for at least some of the things on that list."

Wow, even after stating that Congress's judgement is ".. not just questionable, but outright non-credible"?? I think your judgement can also be improved here



'Overturning results of 2016' cry is funny. Office goes to the elected VP, from same ticket, not to Donald's opponent. And getting impeached does not meke Donald's election void"
Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 23 09:14:59
Hood -

Your opening post in this thread consisted of calling me a cocksucker. How happy do you think HR would be with that?

Moron.
Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 23 09:17:41
CR -

Pence is a fine VP, but he's ultimately cut from Beltway cloth. Impeachment plus removal would overturn the election by removing the anti-establishment populist who is openly hostile to the DC modus operandi.
jergul
large member
Thu Jan 23 09:20:08
Ruggy
The trial is polarizing. And as a block, the independents are polarizing the wrong way.

Remember that one of the main reasons non-republicans don't want Trump convicted is because they feel the election should resolve the issue.

So naturally, they want as much evidence as possible to make their deliberations before voting.

The Sentate has to be very careful about frustrating the desire to make an informed choice.
hood
Member
Thu Jan 23 09:24:26
Rugian,

Why do I give a shit what HR would think? You, like him, seem to be unable to understand metaphor. And if you're about to play the "I understood the metaphor" card, you should consider that being purposefully ignorant is much worse than just being a plain old dumbass.
hood
Member
Thu Jan 23 09:25:26
Oh. Uh. HR. Not hot rod.

/Mild idiot on that mistake. I hold firm on the metaphor aspect.
hood
Member
Thu Jan 23 09:27:32
Anyway.

I'd be glad to repeat what I said in front of coworkers and the HR department. Half of them wouldn't know what a fluffer is. The other half would understand the use of metaphor.
jergul
large member
Thu Jan 23 09:27:58
Ruggy
You are treading dangerously close to cult of personality territory.

Your overturn the election defence seems to be that Trump should not have been impeached because of who he is.

Factually. There were two names on the ticket and the office is independent of the individual. Removal does not overturn the election. See historic examples of VPs stepping up.
jergul
large member
Thu Jan 23 09:30:11
So could you please stop using that particular piece of misplaced hyperbole?
Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 23 09:30:14
Jergul,

If Democrats had wanted a more complete and informative package to send to the Senate, they probably should have taken more than seventy days to establish their case.

At the end of the day though, the average voter cares little for Ukraine or the technicalities of the Impoundment Act. They care about issues such as the economy and public safety.

Not to mention that the opposition that will face Trump in the election will be the most radical group of far-leftists put up by the Democrats since the 1970s. Boris benefitted hugely by having Corbyn as his punching bag; Trump will have the same benefit to work with.
jergul
large member
Thu Jan 23 09:34:31
Ruggy
Its not about what the democrats or republicans want. Its about what the independents want.

The GOP could lose the Senate if it frustrates the desire to make an informed choice.
Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 23 09:34:42
Jergul,

That's a mutation of the argument if I ever saw one.

My point isn't that Trump shouldn't be impeached because of who he is, it's that Democrats have consistently wanted to impeach him for the same reason.
Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 23 09:38:21
Jergul,

Since we're approaching the territory of repeating ourselves, I'll just say ref. Ibid.
CrownRoyal
Member
Thu Jan 23 09:46:15
"Pence is a fine VP, but he's ultimately cut from Beltway cloth. Impeachment plus removal would overturn the election by removing the anti-establishment populist who is openly hostile to the DC modus operandi."

But what if I tell you that Pence is secretly Targaryen? I mean, since we moved on from reality to metaphors, slogans and other words
jergul
large member
Thu Jan 23 09:54:01
Ruggy
I am ok with "witch-hunt", but not "steal election"

Those are two distinct arguments.
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