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Utopia Talk / Politics / sebs welcome refugee to Baltimore
Sam Adams
Member
Wed Feb 19 12:19:22
http://www...-syrian-refugee-in-harlem-park


Police Search For Suspect Who Shot, Killed Syrian Refugee In Harlem Park


Lol what a liberal wonderland inner cities are.
Seb
Member
Wed Feb 19 12:23:04
You are the one that is for killing refugees Sam.
Sam Adams
Member
Wed Feb 19 12:27:41
I could obviously care less about the refugees. I just think its hilarious how badly your far left welfare state policies fail.
Forwyn
Member
Wed Feb 19 13:17:36
Seb thinks 31 year old single males should be allowed in as refugees, lulz
Seb
Member
Wed Feb 19 14:04:43
It's "couldn't care less". Saying uou could care less implies you care some.

Forwyn thinks that 31 single male Jews should have been sent back to 1930s Germany.
Rugian
Member
Wed Feb 19 14:28:25
Well we just shot straight to Godwin here, didnt we.
Forwyn
Member
Wed Feb 19 14:36:26
Ah yes, because Arab Syrian males are getting rounded up in cattle cars.

Seb you fucking retard, rofl
Seb
Member
Wed Feb 19 15:49:22
Forwyn:


You mocked the idea 31 year old single males could be refugees.

Obviously it depends entirely on the circumstances of the situation they are fleeing, and nothing at all to do with their age, sex or whether they are traveling alone. Which was my point: your post was retarded.

Rugian:

Given the that was the motivation for the creation of international refugee law, clearly not Goodwin law. Forwyn mocked the idea that a 31 year old single male child be considered a refugee. A good test therefore is whether a 31 year old single male Jews fleeing nazi Germany should be a refugee or not, given refugee laws were specifically created to cover that kind of circumstance among others.




Seb
Member
Wed Feb 19 15:50:23
What we obviously find is that yes, nothing precludes a single, male, 31 year old from being a refugee if they meet the, you know, actual legal tests for being a refugee.

Christ you guys are fuckwits.
Seb
Member
Wed Feb 19 15:54:57
Sam speaks with the garbled misunderstood idioms of a valley girl teen-ager. Forwyn can't even keep track of his own train of thought, so how he expects rlse to follow it's eliptoc path through the Escher-like dream-scape that passes for his rational mind is beyond me. And rugian can't even apply Goodwin's law properly.

Gotta up your respective games, chuckle brothers.
Sam Adams
Member
Wed Feb 19 22:04:56
Seb thought ukrainian in Tehran could have been engine failure.

Lol.

You lose.
Forwyn
Member
Wed Feb 19 22:29:35
"A good test therefore is whether a 31 year old single male Jews fleeing nazi Germany should be a refugee or not"

Right. So, use the widely accepted worst instance of genocide in the history of mankind as the general rule.

Lol you fucking retard

A non-retard would use context and not extrapolate fucking cattle cars to a fairly routine civil war in Syria

"80-85 Arab Syrian majority"
"Let's use Jews as an analogy"

Kill yourself
Seb
Member
Thu Feb 20 00:55:23
Forwyn:

You said nothing at all about the circumstances the individual was fleeing. You complaint was only with the attributes of the individual: single, male, 31. Now you are saying "oh, obviously a single male 31 year old can be a refugee if they are fleeing Nazi Germany and are Jewish", well yeah. No shit Sherlock. Refugee status hasn't got anything to do with age, sex or whether traveling alone.

Seb
Member
Thu Feb 20 00:59:46
Sam:

You said it had disintegrated and was tumbling, which it visibly wasn't, and could only have been hit by a large area defence missile. It was hit by much smaller point defence missiles. You literally looked at a video of a plane with part of the wing on fire traveling in a straight line, and interpreted it to be tumbling and broken in pieces because you are so subject to confirmation bias.


smart dude
Member
Thu Feb 20 01:25:44
"Saying uou could care less implies you care some."

What does uou mean?
jergul
large member
Thu Feb 20 04:00:19
Any individual 31 year old male is far more likely to be a legitimate refugee. The problem is that if you let in 30 of them, then 1 might pose a security risk. Which is somewhat disproproportionate compared to other groups.

So the question you have to ask here is if you favour collective punishment or not.
Seb
Member
Thu Feb 20 04:58:00
Smart Dude:

It means your ability to correct errors is worse than a simple spell check algorithm.
sam adams
Member
Thu Feb 20 09:52:26
"You said it had disintegrated and was tumbling"

No, i said it was losing parts and tumbling. Which it was. The entire upper forward fuselage peeled off and came down elsewhere.

Lol retard.


"traveling in a straight line"

Lol wrong again retard. It had turned completely around and its final debris scar was facing back towards the airport.

Lol why are you never right seb?
sam adams
Member
Thu Feb 20 10:52:20
After a month and a half of hindsight seb is still less knowledgeable than i was in the first 5 minutes.

Lol
Forwyn
Member
Thu Feb 20 10:55:40
"You said nothing at all about the circumstances the individual was fleeing."

Right. And I posted that comment in a thread about...

"Refugee status hasn't got anything to do with age, sex or whether traveling alone."

Pretty blatantly false, since 31 year old males, especially in a given racial majority, are typically the ones creating refugee situations, not fleeing from them.

"Well what about Jeeeeeeews Sherlock?"

rofl
Seb
Member
Thu Feb 20 11:38:02
Forwyn:

If you meant "people fleeing Syria can't be refugees", which would also be wrong, type have said that. Not "31 year old single males"

"Pretty blatantly false,"
Show me where in the law that refugee status depends on age, sex and whether traveling alone.
Seb
Member
Thu Feb 20 11:43:13
Sam now making shit up.

The plane continued in flight after the first hit, veered a bit to the right, exploded on impact. It shed a bit of debris. Sam claimed it was tumbling and aerodynamic forces were causing the airplane to disintigrate, consistent with an area defence missile.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Feb 20 11:53:16
"31 year old single males" *in the demographic majority in Syria*

"age"

http://en....ion_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child

"sex and whether traveling alone."

Should be criterion, of course.
sam adams
Member
Thu Feb 20 12:33:56
Lol seb i feel sorry for you. Your brain is legit bad. That sucks.
Seb
Member
Thu Feb 20 12:47:03
Sam:

It's all publicly available Sam. You are going nobody.

Forwyn:

So, if sex and traveling alone should be criteria, let's turn again to the Holocaust which was the inspiration to refugee law. Are you saying single, male 31 year olds fleeing Germany should have been sent back?

No.

Your ideas are incoherent, at odds with the law, and shared only by fuckwits.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Feb 20 13:15:08
Again, muh Holocaust is an exception, not the general rule.

There is no Holocaust in Syria. There are no cattle cars.

You act as though that general prescriptions cannot be waived, or be balanced against mitigating factors.

Perhaps in red tape-ridden, bureaucratic shitholes. Admittedly you have more experience there.
sam adams
Member
Thu Feb 20 14:01:26
"It's all publicly available Sam."

Indeed. This is why your failure to comprehend is an indication of serious mental deficiencies. To insist the plane was flying straight and intact when all evidence shows otherwise so clearly from so many sources for so long... shows a lack of learning ability that is inhumanely low.
Seb
Member
Thu Feb 20 14:21:00
Forwyn:

The Holocaust was literally the inspiration for the general rule.

There is an international treaty defining what constitutes a refugee and what does not. The criteria aren't up for debate. It's literally a defined thing. Age, sex and traveling don't feature. Your idiotic opinions on what these criteria *should* be don't matter.
Seb
Member
Thu Feb 20 14:21:30
Sam:

Post a source then.
sam adams
Member
Thu Feb 20 16:00:37
I did. Many times. You cant read, comprehend nor remember at what i would consider an acceptable level, so i will not waste my time digging them up again. Suffice to say they are plentiful. The radio telemetry, the flaming videos, the debris pictures... are all available with only little effort, though you have shown no ability to comprehend them.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Feb 20 20:57:10
"There is an international treaty defining what constitutes a refugee and what does not."

"A refugee is someone who has been forced to flee his or her country because of persecution, war or violence. A refugee has a well-founded fear of persecution for reasons of race, religion, nationality, political opinion or membership in a particular social group."

http://www.unrefugees.org/refugee-facts/what-is-a-refugee/

Can you tell me what category an Arab Muslim male would fall under in Syria, Seb?
Paramount
Member
Fri Feb 21 00:46:10
Practically under all categories.

1) There is war in Syria, in case you missed it
2) There is violence in Syria
3) An Arab Muslim male could be persecuted and killed for reasons of religion, political opinion or membership in a particular group by either Islamic extremist groups or by the regime.
Seb
Member
Fri Feb 21 01:07:03
Sam had not posted a source, and continues not to do so.
Seb
Member
Fri Feb 21 01:10:44
Forwyn:

The mind boggles. I don't think I need to add to paramounts response.

Let's just say, being 31, male and traveling alone precludes none of the above, all of which could be valid, and even if we allow you to retrospectively smuggle Arab in, that's still true.
Seb
Member
Fri Feb 21 01:37:00
Reminds me of the bit in the life of Brian "what have the Romans ever done for us".
Dukhat
Member
Fri Feb 21 02:19:01
If Sam knew how to post reliable sources, he wouldn't be such a fucking idiot.
Forwyn
Member
Fri Feb 21 10:33:28
Indeed, the mind boggles. Seb is whining that we should apply Jew-thinking to the SS officer.
Forwyn
Member
Fri Feb 21 10:40:32
"3) An Arab Muslim male could be persecuted and killed for reasons of religion, political opinion or membership in a particular group by either Islamic extremist groups or by the regime."

No. An Arab Muslim male could fit into every group doing the killing. There is no well-rounded reason to assume he'd be killed for a protected reason.

And he doesn't need to flee to the West to avoid it. He can go sip tea in Damascus, or any other shithole in the region.
jergul
large member
Fri Feb 21 10:51:56
Seb
What you fail to understand is that immigration policies of the 1930s were in fact entirely correct.

The politically correct nonsense of the last 75 years has to change.
jergul
large member
Fri Feb 21 10:53:27
Forwyn
You do know that Arab Muslim Females are both at significantly less risk and breed like rabbits?

No point killing lice if you do not get the eggs.
jergul
large member
Fri Feb 21 10:54:41
Maga is quite easy to understand. I felt both enraged and empowered simply by typing the above.
Paramount
Member
Fri Feb 21 11:52:23
” An Arab Muslim male could fit into every group doing the killing”

And into every group who are being killed. The vast majority of the terrorists victims are Muslims. So Muslims must be able to seek shelter in other countries.


” And he doesn't need to flee to the West to avoid it.”

They can seek shelter and asylum in Israel. Israel is a democracy and they are also located in the region.

Let’s not forget that Europe has not received the most refugees. It is Turkey and Lebanon who has received the most redugees. But Europe has surely taken responsibility. Something we can not say that Israel, USA or Saudi Barnaria has.
Seb
Member
Fri Feb 21 12:12:01
Forwyn:

Can you explain in what way is a Muslim man from Syria like an SS officer.
Seb
Member
Fri Feb 21 12:12:43
Forwyn thinks that all 31 year old Syrian Muslims are war criminals.
Forwyn
Member
Fri Feb 21 12:59:18
Seb:

Can you explain in what way an Arab Muslim man in Syria is like a Jew?

Use a white Christian German middle-class worker in lieu of an SS officer, if you like.
Forwyn
Member
Fri Feb 21 13:01:11
Seb thinks that people in 85% majority demographics fall under systems meant to help those fleeing religious and racial persecution.
sam adams
Member
Fri Feb 21 14:29:03
Cuckhat you claimed counterstrike was your source for gun debates.
Seb
Member
Fri Feb 21 14:57:45
Forwyn:

I think a Syrian Muslim around 31 in Syria could have been subject to persecution from several factions who want to kill or torture him on the basis of his race, religioun or political views, very much as the Jews in Germany faced persecution from the governing faction who wished to enslave and then kill them on the basis of their race and religion.
Forwyn
Member
Fri Feb 21 15:31:53
I think a German man around 31 in Germany could have been subject to persecution from several factions who want to kill or torture him on the basis of his race, religion or political views, very much as the Jews in Germany faced persecution from the governing faction who wished to enslave and then kill them on the basis of their race and religion.

lol
Nekran
Member
Fri Feb 21 16:02:52
You realize most of the jews in Germany were German, right?

And that there's a lot of different factions in Islam?

And that you should really stop self owning yourself?
Forwyn
Member
Fri Feb 21 16:09:41
Are you brain-damaged?
Forwyn
Member
Fri Feb 21 16:11:31
"In 1933, 5 years prior to the annexation of Austria into Germany, the population of Germany was approximately 67% Protestant and 33% Catholic, while the Jewish population was less than 1%."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

bUt ThEy WeRe StIlL gErMaN sToP oWnInG yOuRsElF
Nekran
Member
Fri Feb 21 16:13:31
I'm not the one who thinks one can't be persecuted by someone from their own nationality... the lack of thinking that's gone into your posts has been truly bizarre.
Nekran
Member
Fri Feb 21 16:17:44
What about the 31yo German communists? Were they incapable of being prosecuted as well?
Forwyn
Member
Fri Feb 21 17:35:14
How often do 85% majorities fall victims to persecution from minorities?

"communists"

Also something we shouldn't be importing. So is it possible for his personal politics to get him persecuted by the majority? Perhaps, if he's a jihadi, and refuses to swear off...heh, persecuting and slaughtering minorities (See: historical demographics of Aleppo for example).
Nekran
Member
Sat Feb 22 01:29:52
"How often do 85% majorities fall victims to persecution from minorities?"

More often than you'd think. Off the top of my head there was Saddam oppressing the 75% majority Shia in Iraq and the Tutsis oppressing the 85% majority Hutus in Congo. There's South Africa Apartheid, of course.

There's bound to be many more examples, those were just the 3 I knew about instantly and just looked up population percentages.

"Also something we shouldn't be importing."

Not the topic... the point is they were very capable of being persecuted in their own country. Which proved you wrong. Again.

"So is it possible for his personal politics to get him persecuted by the majority? Perhaps, if he's a jihadi, and refuses to swear off...heh, persecuting and slaughtering minorities (See: historical demographics of Aleppo for example)."

Yes, because to you, once someone is muslim, they can only be "muslim", which is already bad, or "jihadi", which is even worse!

There's nothing else to muslims in your tiny mind.
Seb
Member
Sat Feb 22 03:34:14
Forwyn:

Yes. German Jews, gays, catholics who opposed Hitler's nationalisation of the church, and political opponents of Hitler, those with disabilities.

They all got sent to the camps.

And this is why we invented international refugee law.
Seb
Member
Sat Feb 22 03:35:09
Forwyn, are you ok?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 22 04:42:51
Nekran
Umm didn’t you forget Syria?
Forwyn
Member
Sat Feb 22 11:59:16
"More often than you'd think."

Those are good examples. They're often examples of actual ethnic and religious persecution.

"Not the topic..."

LOL. Of course it is. The topic is whether we should be importing them. The reason for their persecution is the first question out of the gate.

"Yes, because to you, once someone is muslim, they can only be "muslim", which is already bad, or "jihadi", which is even worse!"

Again, LOL. There are tens of thousands of Muslims fighting bravely to finish the purge of Western-armed, head-chopping jihadis that spent the last eight years persecuting and slaughtering ethnic and religious minorities.

Seb: Worse examples than Nekran. Again, vast minorities.

At least he provided actual examples of ethnic or religious majorities being oppressed, instead of going insta-Godwin and doubling down on it.
seb
Member
Sat Feb 22 12:44:01
Forwyn:

Are Shias, Alawites, Sunnis or Kurds all not Muslim?
seb
Member
Sat Feb 22 12:45:28
Also, not sure what this has got to do with majorities. Right to asylum in law hasn't got anything to say about that. You just need to have a well founded fear of such persecution and no recourse to the protection of the state.
seb
Member
Sat Feb 22 12:45:56
Forwyn, I really think you should probably let this one go.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Feb 22 13:28:45
All of the above are fighting alongside the SAA.

They are not at risk of being killed by Assad for being Shia, Alawite, Sunni, or Kurd. Maybe by jihadis.

Seb, you should probably stop trying. Nekran is better at this than you.
Seb
Member
Sun Feb 23 03:43:06
Forwyn:

The regime has a history of targeting Sunnis, Kurds and political dissidents.

And in addition, it doesn't matter if the people they are running from are terrorists. You don't have to be fleeing the state, you just have to not have recourse to the protection of the state.
Seb
Member
Sun Feb 23 03:44:36
Forwyn thinks every Sunni, Alawite, Shia and Kurd is allied to the SAA.

Gosh. So who are the terrorists and FSA then? Atheists?
Seb
Member
Sun Feb 23 03:45:16
ISIS? Clearly not Sunni. All the Sunnis are fighting alongside the SAA!
Forwyn
Member
Sun Feb 23 08:50:12
Ah yes. They're just being targeted for being Kurds, or Sunni, or just having the wrong political opinion. Time to grant refugee status to ISIS members!

LOL Seb you fucking retard. I didn't say 100% of these groups are fighting with the SAA. But a significant number are, which means they aren't being targeted because of ethnic or religious identity.
Seb
Member
Sun Feb 23 09:03:20
Forwyn:

It's utterly hilarious to suggest nobody in Syria meets the definition of refuge, but go on then, why *are* civilians being they being targeted?

Isis members are war criminals and don't meet definition of refugee as a result. Do keep up.
Forwyn
Member
Mon Feb 24 01:10:18
No one? Religious minorities meet the definition. Ethnic minorities meet the definition.

It's simply highly unlikely that an ethnic and religious majority male qualifies. He is not almost certainly not being targeted due to racial or religious characteristics.

Being a coward doesn't make you a refugee. Fighting a losing war to establish a genocidal theocracy doesn't make you a refugee.

Curiously, I doubt you'd extend the same protections to Irish Catholic males.
Seb
Member
Mon Feb 24 01:36:22
No, ethnic minorities or religious minorities do not meet the definition.

It doesn't matter if they are minorities or not.

The individual claiming asylum has to have a well founded fear of persecution on the basis of religion, nationality, political opinion or social group.

So, for example, as I think nekran pointed out, you could potentially be a Shia refugee from 1990s Iraq even if the Shia are a majority. Equally you could be a Sunni refugee from Syria even though Sunnis are a majority in Syria if you are fleeing, say, Kurds who are trying to ensure their area has no Sunnis in. Even though the regime might not be targeting Sunnis.

You are grossly simplifying things, and in any case your original post made no consideration of these things. You just focused on being 31, male, traveling alone, and being a Muslim (they are nearly all Muslim of some flavour, even the Kurds).

"Irish Catholic males."

What, fleeing persecution in the Irish Republic? Because that's about the only place that could realistically provide such a source of people to be recognised by the UK.

You only become a refugee if you leave your country of origin. The UK wouldn't consider Irish Catholics from NI refugees for the obvious reason that NI is in the UK, so at best we could recognise them as internally displaced persons.

Fun fact, there were Irish Catholic refugees during the 1950s/60s fleeing the Irish protestant armed groups (this violence prompted the UK to send in troops and suspend the NI parliament) and the Republic set up camps for them.

In any case, if they have in practice recourse to protection from the UK they aren't necessarily refugees.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Feb 24 01:53:51
Closing your borders to refugees.

Allowing savages to trickle through your border as refugees.

These are apparently the two choices we have, judging from this thread. I suggest killing all refugees and in one fell swoop we have stoned two birds with one bong hit.
Forwyn
Member
Mon Feb 24 02:19:23
"You are grossly simplifying things"

Ironic, as you continue to focus on the initial troll comment, even though I've since added clarification.

For example:

"It doesn't matter if they are minorities or not.

The individual claiming asylum has to have a well founded fear of persecution on the basis of religion, nationality, political opinion or social group."

We've established that it is possible for a majority demographic to be oppressed to refugee levels, no thanks to you. However, it still stands to state that a) it is far more rare than minorities being persecuted, for obvious reasons, and b) the majority is not being persecuted for ethnic or religious reasons in Syria.

That leaves political and social flavors, and we've danced around it for a while, but there is virtually no one in Syria being persecuted by the Syrian government for routine political and social flavors. Even headchoppers that have controlled territory claimed by suicide bombings and tortuous executions are being granted exceedingly merciful deals.

To summarize: we can extend my initial comment to your heart's content, but either they're being persecuted due to protected classes (they're not), or they're trying to claim due to political reasons (and are war criminals, as you said yourself).

Better answer: stop funneling weapons to jihadis to further your imperialist Brit streak that you haven't improved upon in 300 years of epigenetic learning.

And if you are, don't whine that others want to establish strict qualifications for those fleeing the hellhole you created
jergul
large member
Mon Feb 24 02:41:38
You are discussing established international law you know. Its fine that you want the US to withdraw from its obligations, but it sort of does have to withdraw from its obligations before tailoring a new refugee regime of its own.

Supreme Law of the land and all that. Treaties are held in high esteem by your constitution.

For now, the following applies:

http://www.unhcr.org/4d93528a9.pdf
Seb
Member
Mon Feb 24 05:18:56
Forwyn:

So basically, you agree, your comment was assinine, but you meant it to be, you really did understand refugee law, but we wouldn't know because your understanding goes to a different school, in Canada.

Ok, fine. So you accept that there's nothing stupid about 31 year old single males being accepted as refugees, it depends on the individual case.

There is a lengthy process to assess each individual.

As Nim sarcastically points out, you don't need to accept everyone. For example, in the UK we have refused people who claim asylum in the basis that as atheists humanists they are at demonstrable risk of persecution as apostates, on the grounds they can't be humanist because they're not familiar enough with the works of Voltaire.

I.e. it's actually quite hard to prove you are a refugee in practice.

Seb
Member
Mon Feb 24 05:21:45
Forwyn, a tip: Normally, trolling is about trying to make the other person look stupid. Not yourself.
Forwyn
Member
Mon Feb 24 13:22:49
"it depends on the individual case."

See, you could have said that at the start, instead of acting like Sunnis are getting rounded up into cattle cars for being Sunni. lol
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Feb 24 13:45:27
>>For example, in the UK we have refused people who claim asylum in the basis that as atheists humanists they are at demonstrable risk of persecution as apostates, on the grounds they can't be humanist because they're not familiar enough with the works of Voltaire.<<

Kafka meets Idiocracy.
Seb
Member
Mon Feb 24 16:26:53
Forwyn:
You could have just started without your "hottest I was intending to be" stupid claim that it was laughable that 31 year old males traveling alone to be treated as refugees.

Over the course of a thread you've come around to agree entirely with my position at the beginning.

Nim:

Yes, that about describes the Home Office. You'll note that our previous PM with her amazingly successful track record is the library serving minister of that department in recent history. These facts may not be unrelated.
Seb
Member
Mon Feb 24 18:19:43
*honest
*Longest

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