Utopia Talk / Politics / Millions of refugees

Paramount Member	Fri Mar 06 10:15:15 Erdogan has told the millions of refugees that are in Turkey that he has opened the borders to Greece and that they can go to Europe. Greece has deployed police and military at their borders to stop the refugees. Erdogan is accusing Greece and the EU of being inhumane by not allowing the refugees to seek asylum in Greece. The EU says in an official statement that the border between Greece and Turkey is closed and that the refugees should not try to go there because the border is closed. Who is right and who is wrong? What should happen to the refugees?
sam adams Member	Fri Mar 06 10:26:10 Nuke turkey
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Mar 06 10:32:15 Weaponized human suffering.
Habebe Member	Fri Mar 06 10:36:09 Build a wall, make Turkey pay for it. IDK, admittedly I find it a little humorous that for years Euros will frown upon the US attempts to halt immigration from the south as racist ot whatever but as soon as europe is faces with such immigration they worry.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Mar 06 10:39:46 1 million+ already in the EU.
Paramount Member	Fri Mar 06 10:46:58 As soon as? Europe has already given shelter to hundreds of thousands refugees, since 2015 or thereabout. I’m not sure exactly how many, but it may be up to a million. Europe could probably afford to help more, but it seems that it is politically difficult to do it at the time being. Partly because there are too many at one time so many countries does not have the resources ready to take them. It is easier to take 4 refugees per month or something.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Mar 06 10:49:33 Habebe has being sleeping for the last 8 years.
Paramount Member	Fri Mar 06 10:53:14 But if all of the EU has a problem with 1 million refugees. Imagine Turkey and Lebanon then, who are much poorer and where there are many millions of refugees. Someone has got to help them. I’m looking Israel. It is a democracy who share our western democratic values. But how many refugees have they got? 0? It is time for Israel to do their part and show to the world that are a democracy. USA. The richest country on earth. They can easily help out. They also started this chain reaction by invading Iraq illegally. So they have a huge responsibility to help.
Habebe Member	Fri Mar 06 10:55:49 Nim, Not quite, I have noticed a big change in attitude, sympathize. Im actually pro immigration, but huge shocks tlof immigration take there toll.
Habebe Member	Fri Mar 06 10:59:18 Paramount, The US already has its own immigration problems, by comparison we probably taken in more immigrants than the EU and have for years. Good luck with Israel, they seem to get away with crazy behaviour that no other nation would be able.
Paramount Member	Fri Mar 06 11:06:20 So basically, the refugees will be stuck in Turkey and in Lebanon until the terrorists are defeated and the war is over. To help the refugees we should help the Syrian regime to defeat the terrorists, and to kick out Turkey and USA from Syria?
Habebe Member	Fri Mar 06 11:07:57 Maybe the corona virus will help you out.
Paramount Member	Fri Mar 06 11:11:12 Maybe. If thousands of people die in the camps, then Turkey will have to build ovens where they can burn the bodies.
Forwyn Member	Fri Mar 06 11:12:55 Anatolia was never the Turk's to manipulate. Make Istanbul Constantinople Again
Habebe Member	Fri Mar 06 11:32:51 Tbh, I think long term, the US problem is easier to fix. Once Mexico comes up in the world half of our problems are solved. The problem isnt really immigration, no one bitches about wealthy immigrants. Eurooenon the other hand faces immigrants from Africa and the ME.Which both have more problems than Mexico.
Habebe Member	Fri Mar 06 11:36:34 Nows a good time for Mexico they have cheaper labor than China with much better transportation to the US and Canada ( we dont have to cross an ocean) If Mexico could control its cartel/gang issue it would flourish.
jergul large member	Fri Mar 06 11:40:25 You think road transportation is better than transport by sea? Wow.
Habebe Member	Fri Mar 06 11:51:49 Jergul, You do understand the US and Mexico share two oceans and we dont have to travel huge distances. If you seriously think its cheaper to transport from China to the US over Mexico in going to have to see evidence.
Habebe Member	Fri Mar 06 11:55:40 Shipping Costs to China are Higher Due to both distance and fluctuating oil prices, shipping costs are exponentially higher when manufacturing in China. In 2018, shipping a 53-foot container from China to Los Angeles cost close to $5,000. The same container from the border of Mexico (Tijuana) to Los Angeles costs about $600. Furthermore, thanks to NAFTA/USMCA and the IMMEX program, goods produced in Mexico can reach their U.S. and Canadian destinations quickly and efficiently. Along the border cities, such as Tijuana and Juarez, companies can offer 24- to 48-hour lead times on certain types of manufactured goods, such as consumer products. Shipping a product from China to the U.S. could take 3 weeks or more. http://nap...hina-manufacturing-comparison/
patom Member	Fri Mar 06 12:08:08 Plus the added bonus of Mexico being even less concerned with environmental and labor laws than China.
Habebe Member	Fri Mar 06 12:09:43 I dont know about labor laws.
Paramount Member	Sat Mar 07 05:14:23 Latest development is that Turkey is now attacking Greece with tear gas grenades. Does this mean war?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Mar 07 06:10:42 Habebe you are not even close. Germany alone has taken in far more than the US in absolut number. Sweden almost 20 times more per capita than the US. Back when the Iraq war was still going on one Swedish county had taken in more Iraqi refugees than the entire US. You notice a change in attitude precisely because of the above things that have transpired the last 2 decades. There is the attitude that now after 5.4 million people migrating and seeking refuge, we can't take in anymore. http://en....ountries_by_refugee_population
Habebe Member	Sat Mar 07 06:35:53 Nimatzo, More than what, ome year? Is that legal and illegal? Doesn't the EU have likr 150 million more in pop than the US?
jergul large member	Sat Mar 07 06:54:29 Why do all of your sources suck? 53 foot containers are not even used between China and the US. Price quotes give about 1300 USD per 40 foot from both China and Mexico. By sea in both cases because transportation over land is much more expensive.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Mar 07 06:57:47 Habebe Whichever, the US is not higher than a bunch of European countries, past or future forecast.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Mar 07 06:58:00 http://en....ountries_by_net_migration_rate
Habebe Member	Sat Mar 07 07:01:05 I mean listen, im not here to nitpick. But overall the US in general has a bigger issue with unwanted immigration than Europe. But I think its more of new problem to Europe, here, it ebbs and flows but has gone on my entire life. Many of the issues are the same/ similar. You suddenly need assistance, housing, jobs etc. For a huge group of people. It doesnt help when the people dont assimilate and cluster in areas. In that sense id say it's more of a.culture shock to Euro countries as most of our immigrants are Mexicans which just are not as different, plus we are generally more use to diversity. Id venture a guess though that the US has much larger illegal group than the EU. Just due to Geography.
Habebe Member	Sat Mar 07 07:02:51 Nim, I find it hard yo believe that the EU has more unwamted and illegal* immigration as the US.
jergul large member	Sat Mar 07 07:03:59 http://worldfreightrates.com/freight Knock yourself out.
Habebe Member	Sat Mar 07 07:04:47 Btw. It says that there is a net.migration list, but its not a list.
Habebe Member	Sat Mar 07 07:07:31 Jergul, what are you trying to prove? Something that I never said? If your trying to prove that its cheaper/easier to transport goods from.China to the US than Mexico, you failed.
jergul large member	Sat Mar 07 07:15:09 I did just prove it. Use the link to get price quotes and see.
Habebe Member	Sat Mar 07 07:18:20 Yeah, Mexico was cheaper, and that's before taxes\fees.
Habebe Member	Sat Mar 07 07:39:38 I tried to a few scenarios , it wouldn't give me a cost between Tijuana to LA. But from Shanghai to NC was abput 600 more than from.veracruz, I tried 10k in construction equipment. Just as a random.
jergul large member	Sat Mar 07 08:05:02 Its significantly more expensive to ship from veracruz to los angeles than from shanghai to loss angeles. But sure, I will give you that. Shipping is cheaper to the east coast from mexico, and cheaper to the west coast from china. By ship. Land haul is vastly more expensive. As I stated initially.
Habebe Member	Sat Mar 07 08:15:06 Ok. But the thing is unless you live in that port city your going to habe to ship it over land anyway. Also Vera Cruz would be shipping in the Atlantic, if you would ship to LA id compare the price from shipping it from Ensenada as its in the Pacific and lile 100 miles or less from Cali. Yes ships are cheaper to ship generally, but they are also slow as fuck and Mexico has ports to correspond to both coasts of the US as well as land travel if its easier due to location.
Habebe Member	Sat Mar 07 08:19:11 Yeah. $743-821 to ship from Ensenada to San fran 728-805 to LA. And probably a lot quicker.
Habebe Member	Sat Mar 07 08:21:14 Based off of 10k in agriculture.
jergul large member	Sat Mar 07 09:09:32 Ensenada is basically just a smaller US satellite port that happens to be in Mexico. It is pretty close to 1/100th the size of the Port of Shanghai.
patom Member	Sat Mar 07 09:42:20 jergul, "Price quotes give about 1300 USD per 40 foot from both China and Mexico. By sea in both cases because transportation over land is much more expensive." The price may be the same because the container ships from China are twice or 3 times the size of those used between Mexico and the US Ports. The difference would be the elimination of the need for containers. In that they all have to be returned to be refilled. Where as trucks can cross the border and go direct to the end customer without the cost of transportation by sea and the unloading and redistribution to end users who can be 1000 to 2000 miles away. Speed being one of the factors. You can have Mexican trucks and drivers delivering from factories just across the border to all points in the US and Canada with the ability to back haul products to Mexico. Whether that product be raw material to make more export goods back to the USA or finish products that Mexico doesn't make yet.
Habebe Member	Sat Mar 07 09:42:42 Point is that in general ots cheaper/faster tonget goods brought from Mexico to the US than from China which is still cheap. Also Mezican labor is now cheaper than Chinese instead odnthe other way around 20 years ago.
jergul large member	Sat Mar 07 10:25:05 Shrug, so get Mexico to build a 30 million TEU port. Hell, China might even pay for it.
Habebe Member	Sat Mar 07 11:17:59 Honestly i'd rather loan Mexico thw money to ramp up its infra. Than build the wall, plus it would probably go a lot further to curb immigration, people only flee shit holes. Make Mexico Great Again
kargen Member	Sat Mar 07 23:32:14 That number of refugees could probably go back to the countries they came from and start real reform.
patom Member	Sun Mar 08 06:46:47
patom Member	Sun Mar 08 06:48:45 Just wondering if there is much difference today than in centuries past with people migrating to get away from oppressive countries or staying and fighting for change.
Paramount Member	Sun Mar 08 08:38:34 ” That number of refugees could probably go back to the countries they came from and start real reform.” So instead of fleeing concentration camps and death squads etc, refugees should go back and start a reform?
Dukhat Member	Sun Mar 08 09:32:49 Fighting for change didn't mean shit in the age of tanks and airplanes. Only when Gorbachev decided he would not use force did the Warsaw Pact become free. And fighting for change means even less now with drones and mass surveillance. Chinese people are so fucked with face AI basically ruining the lives of anybody that steps out of line.
Dukhat Member	Sun Mar 08 10:03:11 To be clearer, they track everyone using facial recognition AI and give everyone a social rating with points that determines whether they can travel or get credit and a host of other things. It's fucking Orweillan.
Paramount Member	Sun Mar 08 11:04:25 Well, it is coming to the US too. Because there is no way that US is gonna let China be leading AI. So get prepared to have your face recognized, and be a good citizen and earn those social rating points.
Habebe Member	Sun Mar 08 14:44:24 Dukhat. the PRC has had one thing going for it, the economy, the form of Facist capitalism has had great results there with help from things like leveraging access to there huge market. But much like Japan, that growth will level off. Of course its easier to have insane growth when your playing catch up to the rest of the world. Plus Chinese growth rates have probably been exaggerated as recent evidence suggests its about 20% made up.
Forwyn Member	Sun Mar 08 20:47:47 > Thinking tanks, even modern MBTs like the Abrams, can't be disabled by civilians with under the sink chemicals, much less shitty T-72s > Pretending Obama didn't funnel billions in anti-tank weaponry to jihadi fucks Also, I'm pretty sure rebels used drones more than the SAA, Cuckhat. And local sedition decreases drone efficacy. You don't shoot at Predators with a G-36 like Tom Cruise, you shoot the drone operator driving home in his Honda Civic (or Dodge Charger, these are Air Force officers and Army NCOs we're talking about). Drones work best when they're being operated safe and sound from Maryland, Incirlik, or a FOB not being pounded by mortars.
EuropeanPussy Member	Fri Mar 13 04:02:05 Greece will not fall! http://abc...-greek-turkish-border-69567426 News headlines today: Mar. 12, 2020 ATHENS, Greece -- Greek border units trying to stop crowds of migrants from pushing their way in from Turkey have hit on a new defense against tear gas unleashed on them from the Turkish side of the frontier — monster fans. The jeep-mounted turbines were deployed Thursday near the Kastanies crossing in the northeastern Evros border region that's seen daily clashes between migrants and Greek border forces since late last month. The violence followed the Turkish government's announcement that it would no longer stop its vast migrant and refugee population from illegally entering Greece, arguing that it faces a potential new wave of refugees from Syria. That has spurred thousands to try their luck getting into the European Union. Greece accuses Turkish authorities of helping the attempted violent crossings by firing the volleys of tear gas that are regularly used against Greek border units. Greece has also repeatedly used tear gas to prevent migrants from destroying sections of the border fence and pushing through. Greek military officials said the turbines used to disperse the gas are normally employed in parachute training. Athens says more than 45,000 attempted entries have been thwarted since the crisis erupted on Feb. 29, including more than 500 on Thursday — when for a second day migrants threw petrol bombs at Greek border troops and police. Greek units were also attacked with tear gas and responded in kind. Also Thursday, the European Union offered to pay up to 5,000 migrants in squalid, overcrowded camps on the Greek islands to voluntarily return home. Nearly 42,000 people live in the camps, and the Greek government says it plans to move 10,000 to the mainland to ease overcrowding. During a visit to Athens, EU Home Affairs Commissioner Ylva Johansson said migrants who sign up would each receive 2,000 euros ($2,240) “of financial and technical support for their departure and towards reintegration in their home countries.” Johansson also said that seven EU countries so far have pledged to take in more than 1,600 unaccompanied minors trapped in Greece. “I am confident more pledges could come,” she said.
Forwyn Member	Fri Mar 13 11:07:57 Better option would be to shoot enemies lobbing weapons over your border. But that's pretty cool.
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