Utopia Talk / Politics / Millions of refugees

Paramount rank	Fri Mar 06 18:15:15 2020 Erdogan has told the millions of refugees that are in Turkey that he has opened the borders to Greece and that they can go to Europe. Greece has deployed police and military at their borders to stop the refugees. Erdogan is accusing Greece and the EU of being inhumane by not allowing the refugees to seek asylum in Greece. The EU says in an official statement that the border between Greece and Turkey is closed and that the refugees should not try to go there because the border is closed. Who is right and who is wrong? What should happen to the refugees?
sam adams rank	Fri Mar 06 18:26:10 2020 Nuke turkey
Nimatzo rank	Fri Mar 06 18:32:15 2020 Weaponized human suffering.
Habebe rank	Fri Mar 06 18:36:09 2020 Build a wall, make Turkey pay for it. IDK, admittedly I find it a little humorous that for years Euros will frown upon the US attempts to halt immigration from the south as racist ot whatever but as soon as europe is faces with such immigration they worry.
Nimatzo rank	Fri Mar 06 18:39:46 2020 1 million+ already in the EU.
Paramount rank	Fri Mar 06 18:46:58 2020 As soon as? Europe has already given shelter to hundreds of thousands refugees, since 2015 or thereabout. I’m not sure exactly how many, but it may be up to a million. Europe could probably afford to help more, but it seems that it is politically difficult to do it at the time being. Partly because there are too many at one time so many countries does not have the resources ready to take them. It is easier to take 4 refugees per month or something.
Nimatzo rank	Fri Mar 06 18:49:33 2020 Habebe has being sleeping for the last 8 years.
Paramount rank	Fri Mar 06 18:53:14 2020 But if all of the EU has a problem with 1 million refugees. Imagine Turkey and Lebanon then, who are much poorer and where there are many millions of refugees. Someone has got to help them. I’m looking Israel. It is a democracy who share our western democratic values. But how many refugees have they got? 0? It is time for Israel to do their part and show to the world that are a democracy. USA. The richest country on earth. They can easily help out. They also started this chain reaction by invading Iraq illegally. So they have a huge responsibility to help.
Habebe rank	Fri Mar 06 18:55:49 2020 Nim, Not quite, I have noticed a big change in attitude, sympathize. Im actually pro immigration, but huge shocks tlof immigration take there toll.
Habebe rank	Fri Mar 06 18:59:18 2020 Paramount, The US already has its own immigration problems, by comparison we probably taken in more immigrants than the EU and have for years. Good luck with Israel, they seem to get away with crazy behaviour that no other nation would be able.
Paramount rank	Fri Mar 06 19:06:20 2020 So basically, the refugees will be stuck in Turkey and in Lebanon until the terrorists are defeated and the war is over. To help the refugees we should help the Syrian regime to defeat the terrorists, and to kick out Turkey and USA from Syria?
Habebe rank	Fri Mar 06 19:07:57 2020 Maybe the corona virus will help you out.
Paramount rank	Fri Mar 06 19:11:12 2020 Maybe. If thousands of people die in the camps, then Turkey will have to build ovens where they can burn the bodies.
Forwyn rank	Fri Mar 06 19:12:55 2020 Anatolia was never the Turk's to manipulate. Make Istanbul Constantinople Again
Habebe rank	Fri Mar 06 19:32:51 2020 Tbh, I think long term, the US problem is easier to fix. Once Mexico comes up in the world half of our problems are solved. The problem isnt really immigration, no one bitches about wealthy immigrants. Eurooenon the other hand faces immigrants from Africa and the ME.Which both have more problems than Mexico.
Habebe rank	Fri Mar 06 19:36:34 2020 Nows a good time for Mexico they have cheaper labor than China with much better transportation to the US and Canada ( we dont have to cross an ocean) If Mexico could control its cartel/gang issue it would flourish.
jergul rank	Fri Mar 06 19:40:25 2020 You think road transportation is better than transport by sea? Wow.
Habebe rank	Fri Mar 06 19:51:49 2020 Jergul, You do understand the US and Mexico share two oceans and we dont have to travel huge distances. If you seriously think its cheaper to transport from China to the US over Mexico in going to have to see evidence.
Habebe rank	Fri Mar 06 19:55:40 2020 Shipping Costs to China are Higher Due to both distance and fluctuating oil prices, shipping costs are exponentially higher when manufacturing in China. In 2018, shipping a 53-foot container from China to Los Angeles cost close to $5,000. The same container from the border of Mexico (Tijuana) to Los Angeles costs about $600. Furthermore, thanks to NAFTA/USMCA and the IMMEX program, goods produced in Mexico can reach their U.S. and Canadian destinations quickly and efficiently. Along the border cities, such as Tijuana and Juarez, companies can offer 24- to 48-hour lead times on certain types of manufactured goods, such as consumer products. Shipping a product from China to the U.S. could take 3 weeks or more. http://nap...hina-manufacturing-comparison/
patom rank	Fri Mar 06 20:08:08 2020 Plus the added bonus of Mexico being even less concerned with environmental and labor laws than China.
Habebe rank	Fri Mar 06 20:09:43 2020 I dont know about labor laws.
Paramount rank	Sat Mar 07 13:14:23 2020 Latest development is that Turkey is now attacking Greece with tear gas grenades. Does this mean war?
Nimatzo rank	Sat Mar 07 14:10:42 2020 Habebe you are not even close. Germany alone has taken in far more than the US in absolut number. Sweden almost 20 times more per capita than the US. Back when the Iraq war was still going on one Swedish county had taken in more Iraqi refugees than the entire US. You notice a change in attitude precisely because of the above things that have transpired the last 2 decades. There is the attitude that now after 5.4 million people migrating and seeking refuge, we can't take in anymore. http://en....ountries_by_refugee_population
Habebe rank	Sat Mar 07 14:35:53 2020 Nimatzo, More than what, ome year? Is that legal and illegal? Doesn't the EU have likr 150 million more in pop than the US?
jergul rank	Sat Mar 07 14:54:29 2020 Why do all of your sources suck? 53 foot containers are not even used between China and the US. Price quotes give about 1300 USD per 40 foot from both China and Mexico. By sea in both cases because transportation over land is much more expensive.
Nimatzo rank	Sat Mar 07 14:57:47 2020 Habebe Whichever, the US is not higher than a bunch of European countries, past or future forecast.
Nimatzo rank	Sat Mar 07 14:58:00 2020 http://en....ountries_by_net_migration_rate
Habebe rank	Sat Mar 07 15:01:05 2020 I mean listen, im not here to nitpick. But overall the US in general has a bigger issue with unwanted immigration than Europe. But I think its more of new problem to Europe, here, it ebbs and flows but has gone on my entire life. Many of the issues are the same/ similar. You suddenly need assistance, housing, jobs etc. For a huge group of people. It doesnt help when the people dont assimilate and cluster in areas. In that sense id say it's more of a.culture shock to Euro countries as most of our immigrants are Mexicans which just are not as different, plus we are generally more use to diversity. Id venture a guess though that the US has much larger illegal group than the EU. Just due to Geography.
Habebe rank	Sat Mar 07 15:02:51 2020 Nim, I find it hard yo believe that the EU has more unwamted and illegal* immigration as the US.
jergul rank	Sat Mar 07 15:03:59 2020 http://worldfreightrates.com/freight Knock yourself out.
Habebe rank	Sat Mar 07 15:04:47 2020 Btw. It says that there is a net.migration list, but its not a list.
Habebe rank	Sat Mar 07 15:07:31 2020 Jergul, what are you trying to prove? Something that I never said? If your trying to prove that its cheaper/easier to transport goods from.China to the US than Mexico, you failed.
jergul rank	Sat Mar 07 15:15:09 2020 I did just prove it. Use the link to get price quotes and see.
Habebe rank	Sat Mar 07 15:18:20 2020 Yeah, Mexico was cheaper, and that's before taxes\fees.
Habebe rank	Sat Mar 07 15:39:38 2020 I tried to a few scenarios , it wouldn't give me a cost between Tijuana to LA. But from Shanghai to NC was abput 600 more than from.veracruz, I tried 10k in construction equipment. Just as a random.
jergul rank	Sat Mar 07 16:05:02 2020 Its significantly more expensive to ship from veracruz to los angeles than from shanghai to loss angeles. But sure, I will give you that. Shipping is cheaper to the east coast from mexico, and cheaper to the west coast from china. By ship. Land haul is vastly more expensive. As I stated initially.
Habebe rank	Sat Mar 07 16:15:06 2020 Ok. But the thing is unless you live in that port city your going to habe to ship it over land anyway. Also Vera Cruz would be shipping in the Atlantic, if you would ship to LA id compare the price from shipping it from Ensenada as its in the Pacific and lile 100 miles or less from Cali. Yes ships are cheaper to ship generally, but they are also slow as fuck and Mexico has ports to correspond to both coasts of the US as well as land travel if its easier due to location.
Habebe rank	Sat Mar 07 16:19:11 2020 Yeah. $743-821 to ship from Ensenada to San fran 728-805 to LA. And probably a lot quicker.
Habebe rank	Sat Mar 07 16:21:14 2020 Based off of 10k in agriculture.
jergul rank	Sat Mar 07 17:09:32 2020 Ensenada is basically just a smaller US satellite port that happens to be in Mexico. It is pretty close to 1/100th the size of the Port of Shanghai.
patom rank	Sat Mar 07 17:42:20 2020 jergul, "Price quotes give about 1300 USD per 40 foot from both China and Mexico. By sea in both cases because transportation over land is much more expensive." The price may be the same because the container ships from China are twice or 3 times the size of those used between Mexico and the US Ports. The difference would be the elimination of the need for containers. In that they all have to be returned to be refilled. Where as trucks can cross the border and go direct to the end customer without the cost of transportation by sea and the unloading and redistribution to end users who can be 1000 to 2000 miles away. Speed being one of the factors. You can have Mexican trucks and drivers delivering from factories just across the border to all points in the US and Canada with the ability to back haul products to Mexico. Whether that product be raw material to make more export goods back to the USA or finish products that Mexico doesn't make yet.
Habebe rank	Sat Mar 07 17:42:42 2020 Point is that in general ots cheaper/faster tonget goods brought from Mexico to the US than from China which is still cheap. Also Mezican labor is now cheaper than Chinese instead odnthe other way around 20 years ago.
jergul rank	Sat Mar 07 18:25:05 2020 Shrug, so get Mexico to build a 30 million TEU port. Hell, China might even pay for it.
Habebe rank	Sat Mar 07 19:17:59 2020 Honestly i'd rather loan Mexico thw money to ramp up its infra. Than build the wall, plus it would probably go a lot further to curb immigration, people only flee shit holes. Make Mexico Great Again
kargen rank	Sun Mar 08 07:32:14 2020 That number of refugees could probably go back to the countries they came from and start real reform.
patom rank	Sun Mar 08 13:46:47 2020
patom rank	Sun Mar 08 13:48:45 2020 Just wondering if there is much difference today than in centuries past with people migrating to get away from oppressive countries or staying and fighting for change.
Paramount rank	Sun Mar 08 15:38:34 2020 ” That number of refugees could probably go back to the countries they came from and start real reform.” So instead of fleeing concentration camps and death squads etc, refugees should go back and start a reform?
Dukhat rank	Sun Mar 08 16:32:49 2020 Fighting for change didn't mean shit in the age of tanks and airplanes. Only when Gorbachev decided he would not use force did the Warsaw Pact become free. And fighting for change means even less now with drones and mass surveillance. Chinese people are so fucked with face AI basically ruining the lives of anybody that steps out of line.
Dukhat rank	Sun Mar 08 17:03:11 2020 To be clearer, they track everyone using facial recognition AI and give everyone a social rating with points that determines whether they can travel or get credit and a host of other things. It's fucking Orweillan.
Paramount rank	Sun Mar 08 18:04:25 2020 Well, it is coming to the US too. Because there is no way that US is gonna let China be leading AI. So get prepared to have your face recognized, and be a good citizen and earn those social rating points.
Habebe rank	Sun Mar 08 21:44:24 2020 Dukhat. the PRC has had one thing going for it, the economy, the form of Facist capitalism has had great results there with help from things like leveraging access to there huge market. But much like Japan, that growth will level off. Of course its easier to have insane growth when your playing catch up to the rest of the world. Plus Chinese growth rates have probably been exaggerated as recent evidence suggests its about 20% made up.
Forwyn rank	Mon Mar 09 03:47:47 2020 > Thinking tanks, even modern MBTs like the Abrams, can't be disabled by civilians with under the sink chemicals, much less shitty T-72s > Pretending Obama didn't funnel billions in anti-tank weaponry to jihadi fucks Also, I'm pretty sure rebels used drones more than the SAA, Cuckhat. And local sedition decreases drone efficacy. You don't shoot at Predators with a G-36 like Tom Cruise, you shoot the drone operator driving home in his Honda Civic (or Dodge Charger, these are Air Force officers and Army NCOs we're talking about). Drones work best when they're being operated safe and sound from Maryland, Incirlik, or a FOB not being pounded by mortars.
EuropeanPussy rank	Fri Mar 13 11:02:05 2020 Greece will not fall! http://abc...-greek-turkish-border-69567426 News headlines today: Mar. 12, 2020 ATHENS, Greece -- Greek border units trying to stop crowds of migrants from pushing their way in from Turkey have hit on a new defense against tear gas unleashed on them from the Turkish side of the frontier — monster fans. The jeep-mounted turbines were deployed Thursday near the Kastanies crossing in the northeastern Evros border region that's seen daily clashes between migrants and Greek border forces since late last month. The violence followed the Turkish government's announcement that it would no longer stop its vast migrant and refugee population from illegally entering Greece, arguing that it faces a potential new wave of refugees from Syria. That has spurred thousands to try their luck getting into the European Union. Greece accuses Turkish authorities of helping the attempted violent crossings by firing the volleys of tear gas that are regularly used against Greek border units. Greece has also repeatedly used tear gas to prevent migrants from destroying sections of the border fence and pushing through. Greek military officials said the turbines used to disperse the gas are normally employed in parachute training. Athens says more than 45,000 attempted entries have been thwarted since the crisis erupted on Feb. 29, including more than 500 on Thursday — when for a second day migrants threw petrol bombs at Greek border troops and police. Greek units were also attacked with tear gas and responded in kind. Also Thursday, the European Union offered to pay up to 5,000 migrants in squalid, overcrowded camps on the Greek islands to voluntarily return home. Nearly 42,000 people live in the camps, and the Greek government says it plans to move 10,000 to the mainland to ease overcrowding. During a visit to Athens, EU Home Affairs Commissioner Ylva Johansson said migrants who sign up would each receive 2,000 euros ($2,240) “of financial and technical support for their departure and towards reintegration in their home countries.” Johansson also said that seven EU countries so far have pledged to take in more than 1,600 unaccompanied minors trapped in Greece. “I am confident more pledges could come,” she said.
Forwyn rank	Fri Mar 13 18:07:57 2020 Better option would be to shoot enemies lobbing weapons over your border. But that's pretty cool.
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