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Utopia Talk / Politics / "By a factor of 15 to 40 times"
Rugian
Member
Mon Mar 30 09:48:11
Boris Johnson's government is furious with China and believes it could have 40 times the number of coronavirus cases it says

Adam Payne
Mar 29, 2020, 3:52 AM

UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson's government is said to be furious over China's handling of the novel coronavirus, with one British official quoted on Sunday saying Beijing would face a "reckoning" once the COVID-19 crisis was over.

UK government officials are accusing China of spreading disinformation about the severity of the coronavirus outbreak in its borders, the Mail on Sunday reports.

The newspaper says scientists have told Johnson that China could have downplayed its number of confirmed cases of the coronavirus "by a factor of 15 to 40 times." China had reported 81,439 cases at the time of writing.

On Sunday, March 29, Minister for the Cabinet Office Michael Gove told the BBC he was skeptical of the China numbers. "It was the case … [that] the first case of coronavirus in China was established in December of last year, but it was also the case that some of the reporting from China was not clear about the scale, the nature, the infectiousness of this," he said.

The Chinese government has disclosed only 3,304 deaths from coronavirus. Yet funeral homes in Wuhan have disposed of an estimated 42,000 corpses, according to Radio Free Asia.

Officials also apparently believe China is trying to expand its economic power through offering help to other countries that are trying to combat the virus.

The newspaper quoted three UK officials, who all reported fury within Johnson's government.

"It is going to be back to the diplomatic drawing board after this," one said. "Rethink is an understatement."

The second unnamed official said "there has to be a reckoning when this is over," while the third said "the anger goes right to the top."

The newspaper added that Johnson's government was so angry with China's handling of the crisis that the prime minister could abandon his decision to let the Chinese telecoms company Huawei develop the UK's 5G wireless network.

Johnson angered his main ally, President Donald Trump, by giving Huawei a limited but significant role in improving the country's wireless infrastructure.

The Trump administration was angered by the decision, with the president himself reportedly expressing his disapproval before hanging up in an "apoplectic" phone call with Johnson last month.

The decision also riled swathes of lawmakers in Johnson's Conservative Party.

"We can't stand by and allow the Chinese state's desire for secrecy to ruin the world's economy and then come back like nothing has happened," one Cabinet minister quoted by the Mail on Sunday said.

"We're allowing companies like Huawei not just into our economy, but to be a crucial part of our infrastructure. This needs to be reviewed urgently, as does any strategically important infrastructure that relies on Chinese supply chains."

Johnson has written to every UK household urging people to continue following strict social-distancing rules.

In the letter, expected to reach Brits in the next few days, the prime minister, who this week tested positive for the coronavirus, said things would "get worse before they get better."

"But we are making the right preparations, and the more we all follow the rules, the fewer lives will be lost and the sooner life can return to normal," he said.

The prime minister last week introduced a national lockdown, telling people to leave their homes only for essential reasons and giving the UK police the power to fine those who do not comply.

http://www...edly-furious-with-china-2020-3

Pretty much a statement of the obvious, but given that multiple people on this board are trying to obfuscate the truth on this one, it needs to be broadcast loud and center.
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 30 10:11:52
Your thread title is gibberish.
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 30 10:18:22
The whole premise is also gibberish.

The problem was never not understanding that covid-19 has exponential growth potential.

Nor is it understanding that confirming all covid-19 deaths is impossible everywhere.

This is just Boris backtracking on his herd immunity concept and trying to blame someone else rather than himself.
Rugian
Member
Mon Mar 30 10:18:23
Still got you to click it.

Jergul, comment?
Rugian
Member
Mon Mar 30 10:20:17
Rofl. You've lost here jergul. Other than you, no one is buying China's propaganda anymore.
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 30 10:23:20
You do know that only people with confirmed covid-19 will be registered as dead from covid-19 if they pass away, right?

Post mortem capacity to test random bodies is not done anywhere?

You are such a hack Ruggy.
Paramount
Member
Mon Mar 30 10:26:03
"The Chinese government has disclosed only 3,304 deaths from coronavirus. Yet funeral homes in Wuhan have disposed of an estimated 42,000 corpses, according to Radio Free Asia. "


Maybe the other corpses died of something else, so China did not include them in Corona statistics?
Paramount
Member
Mon Mar 30 10:27:34
Maybe someone should check if the numbers of Uyghurs in the camps has decreased or not.
Habebe
Member
Mon Mar 30 10:30:53
Paramount, Well, real numbers will probably never be known, but a good start would be if we knew the normal death rate.

Considering how China haned the Dr. That originally was the whistleblower I think its safe to assume they are not being super transparent.


***waits for Jerguls post " considering Trumps handling of covid 19 blah blah blah"
sam adams
Member
Mon Mar 30 10:37:09
Jergul defending communism to the last.

Sad.
Rugian
Member
Mon Mar 30 10:47:50
Jergul,

Chinese statistics are glorified fiction. This was known well before the Chinese virus broke out. The numbers exist to serve the interests of the CCP, not to reflect objective reality.

Your rabid defense of communist regimes like China comes across as absolutely ridiculous to anyone with a brain.
Paramount
Member
Mon Mar 30 11:03:08
"according to Radio Free Asia"


Radio Free Asia (RFA) is a United States government–funded broadcasting corporation – WIKI


Rofl

I'd say that the US has an interest in talking bad about China. Propaganda. So RFA's reports can not be trusted to a 100%
The Children
Member
Mon Mar 30 11:04:46
does rugiot actually ever speak anything logical?

rofl by a factor of 40?

ur country has 100 million infected by now.

there.

bam. owned.

rofl.

we all know ur the one in fiction and in denial.
u just cant have it that we r superior then u are.

dunt kid urself, kid. u knew since january that there is an outbreak. ur failure is noone elses failure.

and neither is the failure of this shithole. u wanna talk about failure. these idiots believed we shuld all just get sick and be done with it.

TC never believed that garbage. tc bought food, toilet paper, cleaning stuff, more food, meat, things that lasts, kid.

not 2 years worth of supplies. i aint crazy like some of the other idiots.

but i bought enough 2 last myself a month.

and what do i see. i see FUCK UPS. motherfuckers like u running around like chickens, not givin a shit, partyin all day, packed in trains, packed in the parks not givin a shit.

no man, tc done everything. but the fuck ups are u idiots.
The Children
Member
Mon Mar 30 11:09:18
"Well, real numbers will probably never be known, but a good start would be if we knew the normal death rate. "

>> u been smokin again, ur was that batch from yesterday so potent ur still high and delusional as fuck.

all the info was given since beginnin january, u stupid idiot. everything from deathrate, infectionrate to the frikkin genes of the virus.

u know everything, everyone else knows. if u still fuckin up, thats ur problem.

china superior. ur inferior.

100 mill infected, kid. a factor of 100x.
BAM!


The Children
Member
Mon Mar 30 11:10:33
"Considering how China haned the Dr. That originally was the whistleblower I think its safe to assume they are not being super transparent. "

>> ur smokin too much fakerolls, idiot.
ur country blamed and banned the first doctor that reported the outbreak in ur country aswell.

why dunt u idiots ever talk about that.
Dukhat
Member
Mon Mar 30 11:22:39
Wuhan is 11 million people. Is 42000 people dying in a few months that out of the ordinary?

Wikipedia says china death rate is 7.2 per thousand in a year so that would be about 79,200 in the course of a year. So about 13,200 people would die normally in let's say 2 months.

The Imperial College updated their death estimates and says that the novel Coronavirus might have less of a fatality rate and shifted a lot of deaths that would've occurred this year. They say about 2/3rds of those that die fit into this category.

Anyways, we all knew that China is full of shit, that's why the best data we have is probably Korea's where they test everybody.

They had a CFR of about .6% a few weeks ago but now it's at 1.6%. Of recovered cases vs deaths, the rate is about 3%. Of current infected cases, about 1% are critically ill.

The Wuhan numbers were about a little over 3% and the rest of China was about .6%.

So compared to our best reliable data, nothing China has reported seems that far off. But I look forward to seeing how everything settles down when all is said and done.

That being said, there's not enough of a smoking gun here to deflect from the conservative party's idiotic strategy of doing nothing and going for "herd immunity." It takes about 80% of the population getting infected for full herd immunity and hundreds of thousands of deaths and millions of hospitalizations.

Herd Immunity was always a dumbfuck strategy.
The Children
Member
Mon Mar 30 11:27:00
rofl i cant believe cuckhat owned these idiots to the next level.

basically what he is sayin is korea numbers are in line with china numbas.

aka CHINA NUMBERS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN ACCURATE. its just u idiots that kept bashing about how china numbas are always not to be believed.

read it again. CHINESE DATA IS ALWAYS ACCURATE.

why the f should we even lie about 1 or 3 deaths more or less. go fuck urselves.

and it aint just koreas either, is it. diamon princess, japan, all reported similar numbas.

go fuck urselves, kid.

butbutbut chinese data u cant take it seriusssslllyyy sureeellly.

why the fuck shuldnt we though.

butbutbut 21 mill users disappeared...

go fuck urself. where did they go to then, inside ur anus?
its fakenews, idiot.
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 30 12:09:17
Ruggy
All statistics on covid-19 are glorified fiction. Stop cherry picking.

Sammy
Defending objectivity. China artificially inflated its numbers compared to how we count infected and dead infected globally.

Using US standards, China would have 25k fewer registered infected and 800 fewer registered dead

All this BS everywhere is why I continue to say that we will know the true count only by comparing overall mortality in 2020 with overall mortality in 2019.

I am not willing to pay the price the Chinese are. Can you imagine your Neigbourhood Watch having full emergency police and judicial powers?

The power trips your local block despot would be riding would be enough to shoot him, then yourself. Me? I would shoot both of you, then run for the hills.

That is what they did in China.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Mon Mar 30 12:12:08
we all know China is lying

and Boris is just trying to deflect blame

just like Trump speculated that doctors & nurses are stealing masks to sweep away all the complaints about lack of PPE

The Children
Member
Mon Mar 30 12:12:29
in china we superior. all these bannoncucks and navarrokolds cant believe what they seein.

but tc realized over 1.5 months ago that cases in china topped. it so simple.

we controlled the outbreak, thats how. u cucks just cant handle the truth.

TJ
Member
Mon Mar 30 12:26:58
China is a champion of globalization and economic integration control. It is looking forward while the remainder of the western dominant backbone is acting like the three blind mice. Considerably Less unifying virtue than necessary.

Covid-19 is a crisis being taken advantage of that was unexpected and not deliberate, hopefully. Never letting a crisis go to waste is a political mantra, and China is a master of politics, and mantra's.

They desperately want to be the international power and their soft power(i.e. international assistance)is an intricate portion of the pie in their methodology to accomplish.

Their military buildup is preparing for such a time to unfold and it appears the momentum is unstoppable because of a lack of due diligence The complacency is unforgivable and at this point possibly unchangeable.

Another chapter in history is being formed. Don't blink.
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 30 12:32:37
TJ
Marshall help was also soft power and gave a world very different from the one we knew before the war.

What is this "West" you are talking about? Is it compatible with MAGA and America First?
TJ
Member
Mon Mar 30 12:34:04
Someone is always first until they are second.
TJ
Member
Mon Mar 30 12:45:41
Google western countries in the world. Culture

I'm not surprised that America dominated your mind.
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 30 12:48:09
Of course, but I meant the Trump policies of MAGA and American first. Is that "West" concept you mentioned compatible with these fundamental policies?

It could be worse. The US was in a position of power under Wilson too, but opted for America First through isolationalism (save Monroe's doctrine. It remained quite possessive of the American continents).
Rugian
Member
Mon Mar 30 12:51:34
Jergul,

You are confusing incomplete data with glorified fiction. For better or worse, Western countries report the data they have. They dont outright fabricate it to suit their political ends as China does.

Stop defending communists already. Your life would suck balls if you had to live in a China or a USSR, so why do you love them so much?
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 30 12:52:37
I am just amused by a Trump supporter now invoking the west as a concept.

It has more a Obama, Clinton or Biden vibe.
OsamaIsDaWorstPresid
Member
Mon Mar 30 12:53:20
"jergul lives underda kremlin and workes as a rusien internet trol in xchange 4 potatoes 2 feed hiz famlie"
Dakyron
Member
Mon Mar 30 12:53:39
"They dont outright fabricate it to suit their political ends as China does. "

Well, the underlying organizations might not, Trump certainly has done his best.
Dakyron
Member
Mon Mar 30 12:54:21
jergul is clearly employed by Russia as a propagandist. Its just strange that he chooses here, of all places, to spread his lies.
TJ
Member
Mon Mar 30 12:56:50
It is fine if you want to continue your focus and attempt to persuade me from clarity. It won't work. I'm firm that my post was accurately clear.
Rugian
Member
Mon Mar 30 13:00:30
Dukhat,

We should be more concerned with cases than with deaths. Case reporting allows accurate measurements of the mortality rate. Mortality figures on their own provide no such insight.

Given the Chinese virus's epidemiology, the ease of transmission, and the potential for carriers to be asymptomatic, China's case figures make zero sense. Beijing completely fucked up the initial response, and even after going in the other extreme direction and ordering an authoritarian crackdown in much of the country, they are still importing new carriers from abroad. With the population base we're talking about here, the caseload should be way higher.

China's media lockdown and ejection of Western journalists also suggests they have something to hide. Sadly, we'll probably never get the full extent of the truth, since Big Brother societies like China make up the history they prefer, not the one they actually experienced.
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 30 13:27:52
Daky
Funny, they say that about Trump too.

TJ
You are firm that Trump was wrong and its now time to embrace multilateralism with a focus on secular, liberal, democratic traditions?

Yepp, you are as clear as mud.
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 30 13:29:56
"We in the West must make common cause in this time of crisis. But first, let us use covid-19 as an excuse to ban abortions. Done! We are ready to let you unite with our world view!"

Pfft.
TJ
Member
Mon Mar 30 13:33:32
jergul:
You should stop attempting to post for me and try harder to comprehend what I've posted.
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 30 13:36:52
Ruggy
What is your plan? That test kits should be used in county morgues instead of hospitals and on dead people instead of health care workers

So you can get robust data on the real number of people who have died who also were infected with covid-19?
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 30 13:37:52
TJ
Why? In an US vrs Them perspective, then tell me how you are going to change so that we will choose you.
TJ
Member
Mon Mar 30 13:52:14
In my original post I blamed the entire western culture of a lack in due diligence and gave China a kudo. Less unification than necessary. The USA wasn't excluded and neither is Norway. Your indifference is justifying my assessment.

You appear to me as being narrowly focused, which my post wasn't.
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 30 13:55:02
Or to put in other terms

Why should Europe not play the center off the two extremes flanking it?

China has positives. The US has positives. The US has negatives. China has negatives.

If you want to tweak the balance, then tweak down your negatives. Give us change we can believe in.

Starting for example in November. We will see by how you vote how many values we actually share.
TJ
Member
Mon Mar 30 13:58:22
It seems you've answered your own question without realizing what you've accused me of as being your own mindset.
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 30 14:01:03
I found the assumption of unity insulting. Get back into the fold if you want common purpose.
TJ
Member
Mon Mar 30 14:05:19
Yes I found the lacking insulting also that western culture is so willing to put it in the dust bin over a sibling squabble. It is a hefty wager, indeed.
Dakyron
Member
Mon Mar 30 14:33:46
Its like people forgot how to do math. To know the general extent of the virus, do a nationwide test on a random sampling of the population and then extrapolate.

That would give you a pretty good indicator of how many people have the virus. Testing hypochondriacs in drive-up testing sites is stupid, unproductive, and a waste of resources.

No need for that kind of limited testing unless it affects their treatment plan.
The Children
Member
Mon Mar 30 14:48:17
rugiot is clearly a CUCKOLD. how is china fabricatin it and 4 WHAT PURPOSE R THEY FABRICATIN IT, U IDIOT.

"Their military buildup is preparing for such a time to unfold and it appears the momentum is unstoppable because of a lack of due diligence The complacency is unforgivable and at this point possibly unchangeable."

>> oh sure.
China helps people, sends medical equipment and teams. medics that dunt need 2 be there, who risks there lives on ground zero and now riskin there lives again in foreign countries. and this is the thx they get, ungratefulls.

meanwhile america invades countries and they stage war all over the globe.

butbutbut china is da bad guy.

bunch of ungrateful rabids.
The Children
Member
Mon Mar 30 15:22:16
so rugiot, how did china lie.

usa numbas.
2400 deaths
140k infected

thats even lower than 2%

SO HOW DID CHINA LIE AGAIN.

roflmao OWNED. REKTED. DESTROYED. ENDED UR CAREER.
jergul
large member
Mon Mar 30 15:28:05
Daky
Its not only stupid, it would be incredibly inconclusive until infection rates are high enough to marginalize the impact of false positives.

TJ
Member
Mon Mar 30 17:51:08
TC:
Don't you think a world leader will have a need for a large military? Yeah, sure, all things under the daylight and darkness will finally become one huge melting pot of serenity, Ain't gonna happen. I didn't say they were going to attack militarily to gain the number one leadership power. When it comes to human power structures nature is dominant in governments and power is nature.

It would be unwise and I don't see China being that foolish. There are more ways than war to gain the upper hand. It should have been obvious from my original post. Maybe you are that naive, but I don't believe that to be a truism.
Habebe
Member
Tue Mar 31 21:11:05
Apparently China's infected numbers do not include people who tested positive but did not have severe symptoms, watching NHK now ( Japanese news)
Habebe
Member
Tue Mar 31 21:44:19
http://www...ed-to-elsewhere-economist.html

Ok so this report says that China is now starting to release stats of asymptotic cases that were tested, but they did no mass testing like other countries have been
jergul
large member
Tue Mar 31 23:55:08
Chinese stats included people who were not tested. Only a few select countries have done mass testing. The US is not one of them.

Chinese stats are comparable once you deduct 25000 from the total number of confirmed cases to remove the people clinically diagnosed, but not tested.

It really hurts that China got this under control and you are making a dog's breakfast out of it?

The trush is simple. Wester countries are not willing to give their neighbourhood watch groups full emergency police and judicial powers.

China was willing to do that and did. So block Nazis wielded people inside their homes.
Habebe
Member
Wed Apr 01 00:05:39
Of course Jergul trusts

"Chinese stats included people who were not tested. "

So they were just guessing numbers, oh yeah that makes them more reliable numbers, of course.

"
Only a few select countries have done mass testing"

What is Jerguls definition of mass testing?
Habebe
Member
Wed Apr 01 00:05:40
Of course Jergul trusts

"Chinese stats included people who were not tested. "

So they were just guessing numbers, oh yeah that makes them more reliable numbers, of course.

"
Only a few select countries have done mass testing"

What is Jerguls definition of mass testing?
Dukhat
Member
Wed Apr 01 00:15:09
We knew this was true for the Chinese though. Midway through the thing, they stopped directly testing and started using presumed positives. And they also noted they didn't have the resources to test for asymptomatic people at the time.

It's still just deflection. We all knew Chinese numbers were unreliable so we should've treated it more seriously. This administration is just making excuses to deflect from their own huge mistakes.
jergul
large member
Wed Apr 01 00:18:28
I don't trust the numbers anywhere beyond what they are. Confirmed infected are people who have been tested and were tested positive. Everyone else is not confirmed infected.

Clinical diagnosis is not guess work. But it does give false positives because symptoms overlap. A clinical diagnosis could not tell the difference between the flu and covid-19 for example.

Using the method allowed China to clear its backlog and isolate people who had symptoms. It was an elegant way to deal with the lack of tests that still hinder work in the US to this day.

Mass testing in this sense simply means giving anyone who wants a test a test.

Germany and South Korea are the two countries that have testing capacity at the level that I can think of off hand. And China too of course since Febuary 25 or thereabouts.
Habebe
Member
Wed Apr 01 00:49:47
Afaik, The US has been testing over 100k people a day, later than we should have, but still i would call that mass testing, just late.
jergul
large member
Wed Apr 01 01:05:08
So each hospital in the US is doing 18 tests a day.

That sound like mass testing to you?

Scale up Norwegian testing levels and you would be testing 550 000 people a day.

And Norwegian testing is not even close to mass testing levels. The tests are strictly rationed and given only according to specific criteria.
Habebe
Member
Wed Apr 01 01:26:21
Ok, so we don't meet Jergul testing levels to meet the definition of " mass testing"
The Children
Member
Wed Apr 01 02:20:18
just admit the truth, kid. ur country is incompetent but it doesnt mean other countries are too!

hahaha
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