Utopia Talk / Politics / Dont ask me 2

Habebe Member	Thu May 14 11:34:29 Its well off ofnthatbtopuc by now.
jergul large member	Thu May 14 11:36:08 I broke Ruggy it seems.
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 11:38:31 As for Norways diverse political parties. Considering that Norway is like what, 98% white , feel confident in saying that the GOP is more diverse than any major political party in Norway. It's funny to get lectured on race relations by people who have none.Its sort of like getting lectured on handling snow storms by Egypt.
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 11:39:43 ofnthatbtopuc....thats a word now. Its Habebe for off of that topic.
Rugian Member	Thu May 14 11:41:26 Here's the party platform for the Norwegian Labor Party. 104 pages so socialist bullshit. http://www.arbeiderpartiet.no/om/information-in-english/ Outside of some fringe issues, I'd love to hear how jergul thinks the current Democratic Party compares to this.
jergul large member	Thu May 14 11:44:55 No one is lecturing you on race relations. At least not yet. But I can start by saying that diversity is not the word you are looking for. Diversity assures that parties generally reflect the composition of society as a whole. Young people, old people, homosexuals, ethnic minorities, various genders. Do you feel that the GOP politicians are more of a snapshot of US society than any major party in norway is of society here? You would be utterly wrong.
jergul large member	Thu May 14 11:46:15 I think your democratic party is to the right of the norwegian labour party. Far to the right of it.
Rugian Member	Thu May 14 11:47:52 And I'm saying you're wrong.
jergul large member	Thu May 14 11:49:06 And I am saying that you are incorrect.
Rugian Member	Thu May 14 11:50:51 No you.
jergul large member	Thu May 14 11:54:52 Lets take one fringe issue. Has the democratic controlled house of representatives passed universal health care in the US? Universal healthcare is something even the most ultra right wing parties support over here.
jergul large member	Thu May 14 11:55:52 Is the DNC member of any international socialist organisations?
jergul large member	Thu May 14 11:56:43 Can the DNC even call itself a socialist party?
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 11:57:12 By that definition the Nazi party was Diverse. Just because Norway doesnt let brown people in does not mean they have diverse political parties. Diverse means a variety.Which is not the same as representive.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu May 14 11:57:25 Rugian Yes, the history of politics and religion is complex, but today in 2020 we seem to agree it is concentrated on ”the right”, for different reasons. Well really what we are saying is that religious people generally vote Republican. I believe conservative people (the temperament) are more often religious than liberal and progressive people, I think part of this temperamental difference is heritable. And conservative people generally vote republican. I state that as a fact I see, it is empty of value judgments. Shades and nuances of a complex history, of course. We also agree that not even the democrats will very often support an atheist candidate. Because religion is more important in US culture and politics. On the flip side, the Swedish PM would have to resign if he said God bless Sweden, open religiousity is a source of ridicule and embarassment. Not that there is a lack of religiously motivated reasoning and convictions, but the ”old” religions are not the prefered religion of progressive people. Now, we can’t really whine about Jerguls hyperbolic language when we have been doing that for years. Feminism is cancer, death to socialism and so on. 4 da lulz my nigga.
Rugian Member	Thu May 14 11:58:18 http://www...34-4d8c-921d-b561f201c4c2.html
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 11:59:15 The DNC has a socialist wing.
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 12:03:42 Nimatzo, In Sweden perhaps. But look to Germany where the CDU is one of the largest political parties.
Rugian Member	Thu May 14 12:04:35 And even the Dems who dont identify as socialist have adopted some very socialist policies on big issues like the economy, taxation, welfare, climate change etc.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu May 14 12:08:44 Also, look, it’s one thing to look at a conservative European party platform i.e what they dream vs what democrats dream and then assess the actual outcome of those systems. How realistic is that? The Austrian party has to fight and compromise their ideas in a political system that is on a different scale, with the green party, the old communist party etc. you get the point. Different cultural and historical context. Rugian, the social democratic party has governed Sweden for 90 of the last 100 years. Such a long reign has consequences for the system as a whole.
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 12:09:20 I dont know that climate change has a socialist stance, perhaps the economic response to it.
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 12:17:39 I have to point out our histories since WW2 still effect things today. In Europe its ok to be a Communist but not a facist. As in America Communism is looked at as on par with say Nazism.
Rugian Member	Thu May 14 12:20:31 Nim I dont think anyone would disagree that todays fundamentalist Christians lean heavily Republican. Jergul's problem is that he cant see ANY differentiation within American Christianity at all. To him, a Massachusetts Unitarian and a South Carolina Southern Baptist are the same thing politically, because they both believe in a guy in the sky. Its ridiculous. As for your point about comparing parties, well how then can you blame the Democrats for not always living up to their ideals in practice? After all, both Democrats and Republicans are more equivalent to European coalitions than individual parties, they are wide tents with various factions that have to be appeased. Democrats encompass both reds and greens, and frequently end up splitting the difference between the two. None of which makes them blue.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu May 14 12:24:17 Habeb This is a great example the CDU The CHRISTIAN Democrats are a European CENTER right wing party operating in a political system that has by and large since ww2 been dominated by the SPD (social democrats) and other left of center parties. The CDU a CENTER right party is the opposition to the social democrats. I hope you get a picture of how skewed things are.
jergul large member	Thu May 14 12:25:36 Ruggy Cite right if you are going to cite at all. I have no problems seeing nuances within the US political system, but your debates are always to the far right of centre when viewed from a western european perspective. Religiousity as a prerequisite for political office is a huge thing. The root of most of your problems may actually be found there. This is not me trolling. I think it might be true.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu May 14 12:29:25 Rugian Yes in theory the two big parties encompass alot of things. But in reality they also assimilate and make things more cookie cutter. It is different having 7-8 parties where you are catering to whatever small minority constituency you have. They elect you, you do not need to appease the big tent you are living inside to the same degree. You end up with prepetual opposition parties that dance around 5-10%. This creates different dynamics.
Rugian Member	Thu May 14 12:30:06 You watched the 2020 US Democratic primaries and came away with the conclusion that they are far right. Astounding.
jergul large member	Thu May 14 12:32:19 Ruggy The debate was dominated by stuff you need to be on the far right to even consider debateworthy. Do you know how far right you would have to be to discuss universal healthcare here?
Rugian Member	Thu May 14 12:34:29 I see. So when is Norway opening its borders to allow de facto unrestricted immigration again?
Rugian Member	Thu May 14 12:39:37 When is Norway lifting the 12 week limit for abortion on demand?
Rugian Member	Thu May 14 12:40:46 How many European countries have wealth taxes?
Rugian Member	Thu May 14 12:44:55 How long ago did Germany legalized fag marriage?
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 13:00:24 Nimatzo, I understand they the 2nd largest party in Germany, not the first (social dems) but that still has a large share of influential in politics. In the US outside of the evangelicals which are a sizeable minority in the republican party I don't see religion playing a huge factor. I would compare the evangelical wing to a Parliamentary party Alliance. Most Christians in the US are by name only, especially younger people. It's actually common to hear people say " I think I'm Baptist/Lutheran etc." As if its a heritage thing more than in practice.
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 13:05:15 I should note that blacks do also tend to be religious and blend politics and religion a lot as well (There is always a reverend popping up somewhere)
hood Member	Thu May 14 13:06:05 habebe: Your link proved my point very well. Excerpts: 35% of americans think trump is somewhat+ religious. 62% of republicans think trump is somewhat+ religious. 64% of evangelicals think trump is somewhat+ religious. You'll recall that I said that the people who believe it latch on hard. This is born out in the republican/evangelical stats. A majority of the people who think trump is religious are the republicans who identify as christian. The republicans are clearly christian. jergul: Fair enough, I guess that makes sense. Just still unsure why you would tag me. I hadn't made any comments about your inclusion and hadn't intended on it.
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 13:09:21 "Somehwat religious" AKA- went to church on Easter. Somewhat religious does not mean religious.
hood Member	Thu May 14 13:18:42 Sure it does. Your opinion on what is required to be religious is of no value.
jergul large member	Thu May 14 13:20:58 Hood I dunno. I may have just started off with supplementing your post, then changing my mind and going with the dog whistle, but not deleting your tag too. Sorry about that. It would have improved the post dramatically if I had lead with Para :). Not everything I do is properely thought through.
hood Member	Thu May 14 13:23:15 Heh. After uncountable mistakes lingering after dramatically editing a post, I've gotten to the "just fucking scrap it and start over" method of post editing. :)
jergul large member	Thu May 14 13:24:41 It definitely was not a "Hood, on behalf of all gentiles, please let me appologise for my uncouth post that might very well be misconstrued by those less openminded than myself" post. That is just not me.
jergul large member	Thu May 14 13:26:45 Yah, I should do that too. I wonder what this forum would be like if people pushed their posts to say 2nd draft status. It would prolly increase the perception of everyone's IQ by about 20 points
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 13:26:52 In hood land " somewhat" is not a word.
hood Member	Thu May 14 13:32:17 In hood land, "somewhat religious" still counts as being religious, because hot rod jr does not read minds and does not speak for the vast array of perceptions on what does or doesn't make one christian. In hood land, people are allowed to have their own definitions of christian. If people then say someone does or doesn't meet that definition, I let them have that judgment, as it is a personal one. The only exception I make is for something clearly wrong - like if someone tried to claim a buddhist was jewish. Obviously, no. Maybe "somewhat christian" means "church once a month" to people. Maybe it means "church on easter." Maybe it just means "believes in jesus as god." That's all fine with me. However, a very clear majority of evangelists and of republicans believe that Trump meets their definition of "somewhat religious." The fact that they see even "somewhat" in Trump is pretty disconcerting, as it's pretty clear to any objective measure he isn't.
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 13:45:20 Hood sure as he'll thinks he reads minds.He appatently reads the minds of Republicans. "In hood land, people are allowed to have their own definitions of christian." "Your opinion on what is required to be religious is of no value."
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu May 14 13:50:07 Haha Regarding posts. I have written so many posts I never posted. I actuslly once wrote this post I am writting once and then erased it. Imagine how much worse you all would think of me, if I had posted everything. Jergul on this phone there are walls of texts avout chimp evolution from years ago for you. Ahahaha.
hood Member	Thu May 14 13:50:44 Those two statements don't actually contradict. Your opinion is 1 single data point. It is entirely worthless, as 1 single data point is almost always worthless. It has no value. The collective aggregate of opinion on what is required to be religious, however, does have (albeit somewhat limited) value. And that aggregation has fallen on the side of belief that Trump is at least somewhat religious among certain segments of the population.
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 13:52:18 All this talk.pf left and right makes me.curious as to where do people on this board see themselves. I see myself as a right leaning modderate. More right wing on foriegn policy. I support UHC, although ideally through HC savings accounts. I support low taxes although I think we have taken that mantra too far in this country, at some point you need to balance the budget, generally with tax revenue. Pro 2nd amendment and pro abortion. As for welfare I dislike most corporate welfare. For personal welfare I would Support a negative income tax in lieu of many* social programs but, some things may be better off ad a program instead of just cash.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu May 14 14:02:14 Habeb Let be more blunt. Angela Merkel has more in common with Hillary Clinton than anyone on the republican party. She is the leader of the largest rightwing party of Germany.
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 15:33:28 Nimatzo, I agree, however I would point out that Clinton is on the moderate- part of the Democratic party. I dont know how left or right Merkel is considered within her party. For example Schwarzenegger was considered a left wing Republican.
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 15:38:11 We also probably have more of a spectrum within our parties since we only really have 2.
jergul large member	Thu May 14 16:10:07 habebe You dont really have much of a spectrum. Socialism is a bad word remember, so there goes the left side of the spectrum.
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 16:28:48 Socialist ideas are still popular.Facism is a bad word but we still have an endangered species list.
jergul large member	Thu May 14 16:47:08 Minimum wage is not a socialist idea you know. Norway does not have one. National collective agreements are. What % union membership penetration do you feel is appropriate for the labour market?
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Thu May 14 17:07:53 "We also probably have more of a spectrum within our parties since we only really have 2." you only have 1 party. and that party just voted for the fbi to access your browing history
Dakyron Member	Thu May 14 17:12:29 "National collective agreements are. What % union membership penetration do you feel is appropriate for the labour market? " 0%
jergul large member	Thu May 14 17:26:34 Daky Not particularly mainstream, not even amongst GOP voters. 64% support unions. 32 do not. Surprisingly few undecided. As of latest poll (Gallup August-19). The question still stands. For reference, union penetration in the US is currently at 10%.
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 17:39:21 I wouldn't put a number on that.A union can do good or bad. Take the case of the American Medical Association (AMA) They lobbied hard against the United States allowing EMTs to work on ambulances, effectively killing people. No one today argues that you need a fully licensed MD or DO to keep a patient stable to get to the hospital. So union penetration and pinning a number to it seems absurd. Many uniins have done a lot of good, and many have done a lot of harm. It would be like me saying what should Norways minimum wage be?
hood Member	Thu May 14 19:07:05 The AMA isn't a union.
Forwyn Member	Thu May 14 19:13:22 And lobbies far more than any of them.
Habebe Member	Thu May 14 22:09:40 The AMA functions as a union, a very successful one at that as many economists would agree.
jergul large member	Fri May 15 03:22:00 So your example of a bad union is not a union. You could say what you think the minimum wage should be. I would simply tell you we do not have one as comprehensive collective agreements set wages nationally in all sectors. Those are negotiated between unions and employer organizations. You need about 35% union penetration for national collective agreements to work.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri May 15 08:34:40 Habeb Now is a good time to go back to what started my line of posts to you. "Habebe Member Thu May 14 12:03:42 Nimatzo, In Sweden perhaps. But look to Germany where the CDU is one of the largest political parties." Germany is very much like Sweden when it comes to political climate. The Swedish Social democrats have like their Germany counter parts dominated politics until recently. The rightwing opposition of these countries on the American scale are center/center left/right when it comes to the actual results, their declared policy platform notwithstanding. Ultimately the point does not get any clearer than, the CDU is currently governing Germany in a coalition with the SPD!
Habebe Member	Fri May 15 13:07:34 Jergul, A rose by any other name. Vietnam was not a war, the US only sent advisors. As for the minimum wage, my point was it doesn't seem to be needed there so its a bad measurement to say your right wing since you lack one. Nimatzo, In general I think we are on the same page. Politics are skewed to right in the US and to the left in western Europe. Merkel specifically wouldn't be considered very liberal here. She is anti LGBT for example. But I Also think that ehatnis left or right is sort.of an outdated we to look at things. Since its mote popular with US conservatives to bring the troops home, does that make it a rightwing issue? I personally dont see it as such as plenty liberals I know want that too.
Habebe Member	Fri May 15 13:14:07 Or another example would be the environment which in the US is portrayed as a left-wing issue, however I knoe plenty of Conservatives who are very pro enviroment, especially those who hunt, fish, hike and camp.
TJ Member	Fri May 15 14:10:32 Warning: This podcast could possibly trigger disturbances left and right. Covid-19 isn't the only takeaway. http://fiv...-covid-19-conspiracy-theories/
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