Utopia Talk / Politics / Herd immunity

Seb Member	Sun May 31 04:31:30 Interesting, the dispersion factor for covid is quite low, perhaps as low as 0.1, implying 80% of infections from 10% of interactions. So if we can identify and model this, you'll get much better information. Also demonstrates why per capita normalisations are not useful, unlike flu (dispersion close to 1) it does not move evenly through the population.
Seb Member	Sun May 31 04:32:52 https://wellcomeopenresearch.org/articles/5-67
Seb Member	Sun May 31 04:33:24 Caveat: this is a pre-print
jergul large member	Sun May 31 04:46:27 To be expected as rampages through long term care facilities would give that effect even if the true dispersion amongst the general population was closer to 1.
Pillz Member	Sun May 31 09:03:53 So like we've all been saying, a total non issue. Not highly contagious. Not highly fatal except to the old and infirm. But sure let's shut the world down 8 more weeks seb
Seb Member	Sun May 31 14:24:41 Pillz: No, they overall reproduction rate as a gross statistic is what it is. The point is about how it spreads. A low dispersion factor means that it's passage through the population is more stochastic. This is why you have these clusters rather than seeing it uniformly endemic. But that doesn't mean it's not highly contagious. It is extremely contagious in some circumstances, less so in other circumstances, such that from an aggregate statistical sense, it is merely highly contagious.
jergul large member	Sun May 31 14:53:16 I rather suspected this might be the case to a certain degree. Hence that list of mine recommending mask use under certain high risk conditions as a permanent behavioral adaption. Not only for covid, but also because it impacts on other diseases.
hood Member	Sun May 31 15:01:24 Ignore flat-earther pillz. He cannot fathom anything above "God has cursed us with this plague of COVID. True believers will be safe!"
Pillz Member	Sun May 31 15:47:52 Everyone under 80 is safe. And China attacked us with Corona. 'highly contagious' but 5 months in and we haven't hit double digit infection amongst any populations. Except the old and infirm, locked in dirty, uncleaned, nursing homes staffed with people who have the work ethic of TC. Tell us again how this is worth all the trouble, and how we can expect massive die offs for the next year Seb.
Seb Member	Sun May 31 17:10:50 Pillz: "'highly contagious' but 5 months in and we haven't hit double digit infection amongst any populations." Pillz, even with widespread lockdowns, it's managed to infect as many as 1 in 5 in big cities around the world, from not even existing 6 months ago, and become the worlds largest cause of death for the first six months of this year.
Seb Member	Sun May 31 17:13:59 Are you genuinely only going to be satisfied if it infects 10% of the worlds population in a six month period? Because that is an insane level of contagion. If it could do that, everyone would have it in 18 months. By that definition, the black fucking death, which took seven years to chew through Europe, isn't very contagious at all. I think you have been watching too many outbreak style movies.
Seb Member	Sun May 31 17:14:21 hood: Oh look, we agree on something.
Pillz Member	Sun May 31 17:27:32 1 in 5 in what major city? Are you retarded?
Pillz Member	Sun May 31 17:32:01 And in what fucking world do you think it appropriate to compare rof between 14th century Europe and the present day? If corona has hit 14th century Europe nobody would've noticed until well into the 20th century.
Pillz Member	Sun May 31 17:42:04 "and become the worlds largest cause of death for the first six months of this year." You can't be this stupid Seb. Here are rates of death for cancer, for the world, according to the WHO. https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/cancer "Lung (1.76 million deaths) Colorectal (862 000 deaths) Stomach (783 000 deaths) Liver (782 000 deaths) Breast (627 000 deaths)" So its just slightly beat out breast cancer. Here is drinking related deaths worldwide according to the WHO https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/alcohol "Worldwide, 3 million deaths every year result from harmful use of alcohol, this represent 5.3 % of all deaths." I can keep going.
Pillz Member	Sun May 31 17:43:34 20% infection in major cities #1 cause of death globally Geographic mobility does not impact rate of infection What other idiocy can you come up with today you stupid British cuck.
Seb Member	Sun May 31 18:27:05 Pillz: London has 17%. NYC 15%. 1 in 5 is an exaggeration, it is more like 1 in 6 in the worst hit cities. But that is a distinction without a difference. *rolls eyes*, yes, I should have been more careful with my wording - communicable diseases. There are more recorded deaths for this year from CV-19 than Tuberculosis and Malaria to date. Seasonality means they will probably overtake later this year. "Geographic mobility does not impact rate of infection" Yes, because it is planes that let the disease move quickly through cities! Jesus christ. Your idea this is a non-event is absurd.
Seb Member	Sun May 31 18:28:24 "'highly contagious' but 5 months in and we haven't hit double digit infection amongst any populations." Except, you know, some of the big cities.
Pillz Member	Sun May 31 18:50:48 So ~1.3mil New Yorkers have been infected?
Seb Member	Sun May 31 18:54:07 https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/05/28/upshot/coronavirus-herd-immunity.html I used out of date data. 19.9% in NYC test positive for corona virus antibodies.
Seb Member	Sun May 31 18:55:03 https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2020/04/23/842818125/coronavirus-has-infected-a-fifth-of-new-york-city-testing-suggests?t=1590969287016
Seb Member	Sun May 31 18:56:33 Ah, no, it was 15% New York State, 20% for city. But there you go. Like I said, patchy, because of dispersion. Now kindly fuck off somewhere else and leave the grown ups to talk.
Pillz Member	Sun May 31 20:25:00 So you're crying bloody murder over 23k dead out of a total of 1.8 million infected. Jesus fucking chirst
Pillz Member	Sun May 31 20:25:55 23k who are almost all old and already dying. The rest are black. So again why are why worried?
hood Member	Sun May 31 21:38:01 Because most of us aren't cartoon villain levels of evil.
Habebe Member	Sun May 31 22:30:46 I've always had a fondness of cartoon villains and especially super villians. It definitley takes up a larger share of my daydreaming than it should. Like Captain Planet villians, I mean what exactly is the end game? Some of them seem to go way out of there way to pollute as if they are getting oaid to do it but there has to be easier ways to make money. How do they recruit these grunt thugs they always seem to have in abundance? Does cancer or radiation not exist? Anything nuclear seems to just give people super powers or disfigures them to a life so they turn to crime. Where is the government? They seem to rely alot on a hand full of.vigilantes who almost die weekly.
jergul large member	Mon Jun 01 03:13:58 Seb Covid-19 and similar diseases are almost certainly linked to viral load. Its not the initial infection that will kill a person, it is a person boosting the infection with reabsorbing viral load his body has managed to expell. With that said. Shall we revist reversible heatpumps deployed enmass in the UK? Now with a heat exchange element to cycle air. Ideally, a residence would be heated by a combination of gas and heat pumps. For public health and meeting climate obligations.
Seb Member	Mon Jun 01 04:00:33 Pillz: Gosh, you mean you've only just figured out that The IFR is about 1.2%? Jergul: Not really following how that would help. Are you suggesting you preheat air coming into the building using air expelled as a heat source? I'm not sure that's going to be any more effective.
Seb Member	Mon Jun 01 04:00:53 (than the alternatives, from a health perspective).
jergul large member	Mon Jun 01 04:29:45 Seb Air turnover is often key to limiting the severity of lung infections. I am not inventing something new. Heat exchange combined with a heatpump is proven technology. My point is that covid-19 and disease awareness adds added impetus to what we have talked about before. Ensuring that the elderly and other vulnerable groups have access to quality air in their residences (at appropriate temperatures) is a low threshold health initiative. Electricity load balancing is the environmental advantage.
jergul large member	Mon Jun 01 04:34:28 Its easy in Norway. Culturally, people shock air their homes (several windows fully open for 5 minutes) at least daily all seasons (it seems almost barbaric not to air out the bedroom before going to bed). In the summer, windows are general open, in the winters, fires ensure sufficient airflow into residences (air out pipe has to be replaced by air coming into the home). Its different in the UK. You need economically viable ways of ensuring vulnerable groups have fresh air in their residences.
Seb Member	Mon Jun 01 05:01:53 Yeah, i'm just not seeing what a heat pump adds to this.
jergul large member	Mon Jun 01 05:12:56 A COP of 3:1. Reversible for either AC or heat generation.
jergul large member	Mon Jun 01 05:15:31 (Take 1kw of electricity. Get 3kw of thermal energy from either air outside, or air inside. Depending on if you want to heat or cool your residence:).
Seb Member	Mon Jun 01 05:18:14 But why is this superior to other mechanisms for heating the air?
jergul large member	Mon Jun 01 13:51:07 Socratic questions? I guess it was not time to revisit the point. Carry on with winter fuel subsidies. Those do the same thing for a couple months of the year at any rate.
Pillz Member	Mon Jun 01 17:24:22 Seb: no I just wanted you to articulate it so you'd see how meaningless the losses are. But apparently the sky is still falling on you and jergul
jergul large member	Tue Jun 02 00:46:39 The sky has been falling on all of us Pillz. You have just become habituated. Permanent change is triggered by covid-19, but the justification rests in how simple precautionary adaptations lower the R0 of any number of things.
Pillz Member	Tue Jun 02 05:36:21 Only changes you'll see are in air travel, the WHO, and the healthcare system. Maybe in the reflectivity of Chinese soil but unfortunately that looks unlikely right now
Seb Member	Tue Jun 02 06:09:33 Pillz: "It only kills 0.5%" "There are no major cities where it has reached 1 in 5 infection rates" "Ok, so it only kills a few thousand" *posts figures showing that it has an IFR of around 1.3% over twice what he has been claiming to date.
jergul large member	Tue Jun 02 08:19:14 Pillz Feel free to stay in a 19th century filth bubble if you like.
Pillz Member	Tue Jun 02 12:11:13 Mortality in major cities is skewed by uncontrolled outbreaks in seniors homes healthcare systems that aren't segregating corona and non corona patients and staff. Try again Seb. 0.5
Pillz Member	Tue Jun 02 12:12:15 Jergul you can enjoy your daily dunk in sanitizer. It comes in drums now, just like your and Seb's favorite lube
Seb Member	Tue Jun 02 15:24:52 Pillz: That would lead to higher injections, but would not effect IFR.
Forwyn Member	Tue Jun 02 16:22:33 Uhh...what? Infections in the most vulnerable population would absolutely skew the IFR.
jergul large member	Tue Jun 02 16:39:46 Pillz To be concrete. What philosphical grounding to you have against washing your hand every time you cross a threshold?
Seb Member	Tue Jun 02 18:25:41 Forwyn: No. Because in the scenario that no other interventions are made, and you end lockdown, those people will still eventually get the virus, and still die at the same rate they would in this instance. IFR is simply the proportion of people *if* infected die. Older people, and various comorbitity factors, have higher IFRs. But this is what I have been telling Pillz et al, if you look at these rates as they vary by age and apply them to US demographics, if 70% of the US population at random eventually got COVID, which absent a vaccine or other measures, is what happens, then your IFR is not 0.5%, it's more like 1%+, because the scenarios where you get 0.5% are largely driven by populations with relatively few old or otherwise vulnerable people compared to the population as a whole.
Pillz Member	Tue Jun 02 21:41:06 A disproportionate number of old are infected because of liberal bureaucratic idiocy. If it were a truly random 70% you'd be looking at 0.5
Pillz Member	Tue Jun 02 21:44:14 Also what kind of idiot compares morality of malaria which is highly localized to tropical regions with corona, which has spread globally and thoroughly penetrated almost every metropolis on earth. Do you not comprehend scale? Insignificant rate of mortality is still insignificant, even if more people die overall. It's not worth shutting the planet down for.
Forwyn Member	Tue Jun 02 23:01:15 "Older people, and various comorbitity factors, have higher IFRs." But lower IFRs with immediate treatment, which they're not going to get when they're crammed into nursing homes with one overwhelmed medical professional on duty.
Seb Member	Wed Jun 03 07:36:59 Forwyn: "But lower IFRs with immediate treatment" There is little evidence that immediate treatment makes much difference in the progress of the disease. There's little in the way of proven effective therapies beyond providing oxygen and ventilation. The thing that would make a difference if they aren't being treated, full stop. But again, if this is what is happening in cities now, why would it be any different if there was no lockdown? More elderly people would be infected and at a higher rate - so if anything it would mean a higher IFR if you are trying to model what would happen without lockdown so as to justify it being lifted.
Seb Member	Wed Jun 03 07:41:37 Pillz: "Also what kind of idiot compares morality of malaria which is highly localized to tropical regions with corona, which has spread globally and thoroughly penetrated almost every metropolis on earth." Pillz, you seem to have lost your own train of thought (or should I say conga line of stupidity). You started off by sarcastially stating: "'highly contagious' but 5 months in and we haven't hit double digit infection amongst any populations." So yes, that was precisely my point: Corona Virus is highly contagious. This is why it has spread globally and thoroughly penetrated many major metropolises. So much so that, for now at least, in this year, it has eclipsed Malaria which is the worlds biggest killer communicable disease.
Seb Member	Wed Jun 03 07:45:15 A few threads ago, someone was banging on about Sweden and how it's relaxed approach was great. Turns out Sweden now has the highest death rate in the world, and their chief epidemiologist is admitting he fucked up. ""If we were to encounter the same disease again, knowing precisely what we know about it today, I think we would settle on doing something in between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world has done," said Tegnell, considered the architect of the unique Swedish pandemic approach." http://www...e.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12337051
Seb Member	Wed Jun 03 07:45:16 A few threads ago, someone was banging on about Sweden and how it's relaxed approach was great. Turns out Sweden now has the highest death rate in the world, and their chief epidemiologist is admitting he fucked up. ""If we were to encounter the same disease again, knowing precisely what we know about it today, I think we would settle on doing something in between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world has done," said Tegnell, considered the architect of the unique Swedish pandemic approach." http://www...e.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=12337051
sam adams Member	Wed Jun 03 10:10:53 UP fact check: seb is still constantly wrong. "Turns out Sweden now has the highest death rate in the world" Sweden has a lower death rate than italy spain belgium... and sebs own country, the UK. http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
Seb Member	Wed Jun 03 10:25:52 Hmm, they'd overtaken us in May. www.express.co.uk/news/world/1284920/Sweden-coronavirus-lockdown-latest-death-rate-per-capita-us-uk-death-rate/amp
Seb Member	Wed Jun 03 10:27:45 Ah yes, I see, that was a rolling average weekly deaths per capita. http://www...2uKS-sfI6HtxdAH5FkvEAo&cf=1
Seb Member	Wed Jun 03 10:32:45 Still, having the fastest growing death rate in the world is hardly a ringing endorsement for their laissez-faire approach is it.
sam adams Member	Wed Jun 03 12:19:03 Holy shit seb admitted his stats error and corrected it. See isnt that easier than nonsensical defense of it for 5 months?
Seb Member	Wed Jun 03 13:24:38 Sam, this is hilarious coming from someone who couldn't admit he incorrectly specified a median figure, and quoted an entirely incorrect figure. When I make mistakes, I admit them. The problem you have is I don't often make mistakes, and you make them endlessly, and defend them to the point you keep bringing them up over and over again, as though drawing attention to them somehow shielded you from the self realization you are actually just a bit crap at all of this.
sam adams Member	Wed Jun 03 14:11:25 "When I make mistakes, I admit them." No. This is the first out of about 750. This year. "incorrectly specified a median figure" Case in point. Lulz.
Seb Member	Wed Jun 03 14:51:24 Sam: What was the median UK personal income according to ONS for UK in 2017 (hint, it was not £21,000)? Provide a source. "Per capita" does not mean the same thing as "median per capita"; and remember that time you spent months insisting it was physically impossible for global warming to increase hurricane strength? https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/news/link-between-heat-and-hurricanes Oh.
Seb Member	Wed Jun 03 14:51:30 Sam: What was the median UK personal income according to ONS for UK in 2017 (hint, it was not £21,000)? Provide a source. "Per capita" does not mean the same thing as "median per capita"; and remember that time you spent months insisting it was physically impossible for global warming to increase hurricane strength? https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/news/link-between-heat-and-hurricanes Oh.
sam adams Member	Wed Jun 03 18:07:31 I dont remember the original source. But i found thid: http://ass.../870159/NS_Table_3_2_1718.xlsx The median taxpayer income in 2017 and 2018 in the UK was listed as 24,000 pounds. If you include non taxpayers the final result is even smaller. In line with 21k. Lol Pwnt
sam adams Member	Wed Jun 03 18:09:23 Also do you really want to restart the debate where you said you couldnt figure out how to apply the ideal gas law to an atmosphere? Lol.
Pillz Member	Wed Jun 03 18:14:00 More closed cases then active again.
Seb Member	Wed Jun 03 18:30:00 Ok, let's run with that (I can't be bothers to dig out the source I ran previously that was more comparable to the stat you posted from Alabama). 24k is in line with 21k ... sure it's only 15% higher. Samstistics at its best. Handwavey bullshit. What's £24.4k in USD in 2017? The year average was 1.289 to the pound. http://www...%20in%202017%3A%201.289%20USD. So at nominal rates, UK median personal income was $31.5k. 20% higher than the Alabama figure you quoted which you said was higher. What was the overall US median personal income that year? https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps/tables/pinc-01/2018/bridge/pinc01_1_1_1.xls $31.9k Turns out UK and US median personal income is... pretty much identical. You've been going on and on for months about how the UK is poorer than Alabama. Idiot.
Seb Member	Wed Jun 03 18:30:23 Pwnt indeed Sam...
Seb Member	Wed Jun 03 18:32:44 I remember your application of the ideal gas law required an approximation. Like your "15% is the same as zero" argument here. In any case, if the ideal gas law means global warming can't cause hurricane strength and frequency to increase, you'd better tell NOAA they got it wrong. Sam, you are the very embodiment of Dunning Kruger.
sam adams Member	Wed Jun 03 18:58:23 Lol look at seb ignore the taxpayer only line and melt down completely.
jergul large member	Thu Jun 04 01:51:08 My God.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 04 02:57:34 Sam: UK income tax threshold in 2017 was £11,000. UK minimum wage is 2017 was £7.5/hr. It's very hard to earn below the tax threshold. The only way you couldn't earn above income tax threshold in the UK is if you are a dependent and you aren't needing to earn (there are few people doing this that is not really significant or reprrsentative of the economy). Alternatively you could be self employed and illegally not reporting income and not paying tax. The going rates for builders and other cash in hand jobs (child care) are above median anyway. The lowest wages tend to be paid by shitty employers, the self employed are smart enough to change a wage that's well above living wage. CF. Plumbers earning 70k etc. All UK stats are based on the tax and benefit system. This is far more robust than relying on self reported income on a decadal census and using some bizarre extrapolation. And in any case you are just ask as likely to be lying to the census bureau, on which your stats are based. That's the best estimate you will ever get for median income. So if you are rejecting that on the basis of tax avoidance, you are effectively saying that there no data on which to base your bullshit assertion. Face it, you are talking shit.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 04 03:51:04 Anyway, back on topic... remember how I said countries ending lockdown prematurely would find themselves on the end of travel bans which would negatively affect the country? Oh look. Sweden and UK are being hit locked out of the progressive lifting of travel movements.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 04 06:06:53 I realise I got the income threshold wrong. National Insurance is a tax and is levied on a weekly basis at £120, so someone who is not a tax payer (and not a tax evader) needs to earn less than £6,240 a year in total to not appear in these figures. The only conceivable way to do this is to not be part of the workforce. For example, someone living off savings, or someone not in employment topping up their income via some cottage industry (say, a stay at home mum selling crafts on etsy as a side hustle) N.b. Pension payments count and are taxed as income, and state pension takes you over this low threshold. The distribution is given here. https://www.ons.gov.uk/file?uri=%2femploymentandlabourmarket%2fpeopleinwork%2fearningsandworkinghours%2fdatasets%2fallemployeesashetable1%2f2017revised/table12017revised.zip $26k is equivalent to £20k at 2017 rates, about the 41st percentile. So for the figure to come down to be "in line" with $26k, we need an extra 35% of the reported workforce to be earning below the £6,240 cut off. Just to remind you why that is the case, if you add 35% to the existing reported workforce, the median point (50th percentile) for the new total will be equivalent to the 67.5% of the old total. I'm rounding down to make your case easier and show how fucking hard it is to make your argument work. This would be equivalent to approximately 8 million people, just short of the population of London (never mind the workforce), that are somehow living off in a year less than I earn in a month. Quite simply, they would be dead. The only possible way to pull the median down through people not included in this stat is tax evaders. And of course, tax evaders are most likely to be in the trades: skilled and semi-skilled workmen and independent traders - which commands a much higher salary than junior retail work that makes up the bulk of the below median wage - which are paid cash in hand. Generally, their hourly rates are well above the median salary, as they compete just below the price point of larger firms providing the same services which can't easily avoid scrutiny of the taxman, pocketing the VAT and income tax. So if you really want to go there and insist on including them, they are likely to pull up median wage. But even if we imagined that in fact they are all earning below the 41st percentile so we can drag the median down to be in line with $26k The total estimated number of people evading tax in the UK is 20%, so even if ALL of them were earning below the 41st percentile needed to pull the median down to £20k, there still wouldn't be enough to get the median to £20k. QED, it is actually impossible to get UK median wage to be in line with Alabama. Bottom line, you are wrong. It was obvious you were wrong. People pointed out how clearly and obviously it was wrong just by looking at standards of living. It was pointed out that the number you used for the UK was wrong. It was pointed out that you hadn't even correctly cited the figure, stating "per capita" rather than "median per capita"; and not only that you have repeatedly raised the point over and over again. Because you are an absolute fucking idiot. You've only been able to sustain this for so long by refusing to publish a source or commit to anything concrete that can be disputed. Only you have come to believe your own myth, and now fucked up by finally citing a statistic that pins you down. And this is why, aside from Habebe, nobody here takes you very seriously about anything. You are very obviously completely delusional.
Pillz Member	Thu Jun 04 06:12:33 Well the UK is still worse then Sweden. Probably deserving of being contained indefinitely.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 04 06:21:03 Pillz: The weekly death rate is higher. So probably due to lower proportion of the population living in areas of high population density. If the UK had adopted Sweden's policy (which is what the UK did in fact do initially), it would have cost many more thousands of deaths. Currently, the two week period where they prevaricated on lockdown is estimated to have cost tens of thousands of lives.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 04 09:03:45 Small correction, you need an extra 20%, not 35%. I had plugged in the wrong number for Sam's Alabama median figure. So, it is just about possible to get UK median wage to be in line with Alabama median ... if every tax evader in the country is actually earning below $20k.
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 04 11:52:12 "It's very hard to earn below the tax threshold." Except for you know, all the part time jobs. Teens, college kids, bored soccer moms, mooching immigrants. Alabama might actually be slightly richer than the UK. It certainly is so on mean numbers, which are harder to fudge. Its ok to be as poor as alabama though seb. Its actually not a bad position for such a degraded nation and cucked empire. The liberal US left will try its best to have us follow you.
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 04 12:00:31 And lets be honest alabama/uk level income places you at the 99th percentile worldwide. So i make fun of you for it only because its funny to me to you watch your sanctimonious little meltdowns, rather than any real human development concerns for either the UK or alabama.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 04 12:25:18 Sam: The idea there is an extra 20% of the workforce(10% of the population) that is earning less than £6000 a year even in part time work, but still part of the workforce is laughable. Such people would be better off claiming benefit (which they can't do if earning); or are students doing a summer job to earn beer money. I'm pretty sure that people aren't reporting their kids paper rounds and lemonade stand sales as part of income in the census return that informs the stats you cite for Alabama either. See what I mean? Your entire argument has been demolished and you still can't admit it. Terming a slow, thorough rebuttal as a meltdown is a cheap rhetorical trick that fools no one.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 04 12:38:00 Sam, if - ignoring the fact that this is like a child falling over and saying they meant to do that as a joke - you are saying you like posting things that are just completely wrong because you enjoy having someone comprehensively list all the reasons why you are wrong and stupid; it's starting to sound like you are indulging in yourself with some kind of weird humiliation fetish. I'm sure there are premium rate phone numbers you can call instead, and it wouldn't cost you your public dignity. Unless, maybe, that's the attraction?
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 04 13:53:37 Seb ranting about dignity while consistently neglecting the unit label and failing at basic math. Let the record show that seb originially claimed the uk median income was 50k USD(double alabama), and now is trying desperately to talk me up to a mere 30k. Lol dunce.
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 04 13:59:08 The case is closed. The UK is 10% ahead of Alabama on a median basis, and 10% behind on a mean basis. Judgement is rendered: the UK personal income is equal to alabama personal income. Thanks for playing seb. Better luck next time.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 04 14:21:29 Sam: oh look, Sam's making up lies again. It was 40 something and I said it was per capita income, which it was. The figures are as above. Get your kinky thrills elsewhere Sam.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 04 14:22:35 "let the record show", I mean you realise a website sits atop a database. The record is right there. Moron.
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 04 14:57:33 Yes, and you can see yourself saying that the uk income was double the alabama median income. Lol pwnt.
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 04 15:00:16 "I cant get numbers right in real time, please dont make me think about numbers from 5 months ago" -seb
Seb Member	Thu Jun 04 15:33:52 Sam: At the time, I took at your word that the Alabama per capita income was 26k. At the point I did not realise that when you erroneously described it as per capita income, you meant "median per capita".
Seb Member	Thu Jun 04 15:39:11 You created the confusion by failing to accurately cite the statistic, failing to provide any source, and using an entirely incorrect number for UK income. And as we see, your conclusion was entirely wrong. UK median wage is significantly higher than Alabama, in line with US median wage. And there's no credible way to try and pretend otherwise: it would require adding 20% to the UK workforce (around four and a half million people), all earning below 6k a year.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 04 15:40:37 All you are saying Sam, is that everyone should fact check everything you say, because you can't be trusted to provide correct information.
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 04 15:59:38 "per capita income was 26k." It was and is. The median per capita is exactly that. You were told it was the median figure with the next post and 100 more. Furthermore, you should have known it was the median from the figure itself. Like if i told you the acceleration due to gravity was 9.8, only an utter dumbass like you would have any doubt the unit was meters per second. The fact that you understood neither the obvious nature of the figure itself nor the label being explained you 100 seperate times, is testament to the utter failure of your mind at any form of basic human reasoning. You are declared utterly stupid forever, and your rights as a thinking human are null.
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 04 16:01:25 Per second per second. Stupid autocorrect.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 04 16:21:29 Sam: "Median per capita" doesn't mean the same thing as "Per capita". And even if you insist it is, the figure I posted is also "per capita". Arguing I should have known it was median is daft when you quoted a figure that doesn't correspond to any known statistic at all and which you've still never provided a source for. I just assumed, quite reasonably, you'd fucked up. As you always do, and indeed you had, with three separate errors in the post. Give it up Sam, let it go. You fucked up. Sort yourself out.
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 04 16:31:19 You have proven yourself not capable of human level thought.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 05 01:53:18 Attempting to dehumanise the things you don't like - that's your standard approach when you get emotional Sam. Blacks, immigrants etc. It's how we know you've accepted you fucked up and can't make rational arguments.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Jun 06 07:34:12 It is now dawning on the general Swedish population that the government has fucked this up. We are now starting to see the, predicted defense of pass the hot potato. We listened the experts, this was not the responsibility of the state, but the municipalities, we would have done more if the city asked us to do more. The shit show has commenced in an all too familiar pattern of the Swedish way of handling responsibility and crisis. Here politicians only lose their "heads" if they mess up symbolic small potato shit like buying candy from a gift shop with their government issued debit cards or not paying their public service fees. When the real shit hits the fan the system is set up in such a way that no one can be held responsible.
Seb Member	Sat Jun 06 08:09:09 Nim: I have a few Swedish friends - I've noticed in many ways the Swedish upper middle class are very British: a firm and at times smug and complacent belief in the national exceptionalism. Sweden actually adopted the same policy as strategy as the UK govt did: "it's like flu and can't be controlled so best try and let it move through the population at a slow pace because trying to contain it will result in a sudden explosion down the line." Unfortunately that turned out to be very wrong.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Jun 06 08:30:54 Yea, they think they are better than the entire planet in every way. For a few weeks the official "explanation" for rising death toll has been and I kid you not, "we are better at counting". Apparently Denmark and Norway are third world shit holes. I tried to convey this very sentiment to you a few years ago when you brought up what your Swedish friends were saying as I was criticizing, uhm, "other" issues in this country. A firm and smug belief which they love to talk about with everyone without ever saying "we are better than you". It is in no way exclusive to Covid-19, this was just a very tangible failure happening in real time, with dozens of controls running at the same time. Hard to bullshit out of this one! But on a positive note, things have and are changing on this issue. There was this "picture" of Sweden that was being sold to the world, that perfect picture is now collapsing in favor of a more nuanced picture anchored in reality.
jergul large member	Sat Jun 06 12:42:33 Next time, follow the same regime as the rest of baltofennoscandia. Its vexing that Sweden is fucking up what otherwise would have been a nice travel bubble. We jumped through a lot of hoops to avoid crossing into Sweden on our next vacation and plans now involve planes, trains, ships and automobiles. You (not you literally nimi) have to shape up and get with the programme.
jergul large member	Sat Jun 06 12:44:49 By same, I mean the same to standarise, not as a comment to Sweden's misguided approach.
	show deleted posts