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Utopia Talk / Politics / FDR memorial to be removed
Habebe
Member
Sun Jun 14 06:57:19
Well. While we're at it. That pinko enslaved Japanese Americans in much more modern history. As in some previousl Japanese slaves are probably still alive.

Not to mention snubbing black athletes by only allowing white athletes to.visit the white house.

And lets not forget trying to put Klansmen onto the SCOTUS.
Rugian
Member
Sun Jun 14 07:08:59
Itll never happen. Every Democrat in the country views him as the father of the party, and progressives have reimagined him as some sort of proto-socialist hero. His statues are completely safe.
Habebe
Member
Sun Jun 14 07:22:47
Rugian, It would be amusing to me to see the left flip positions real quick.
Dukhat
Member
Sun Jun 14 09:04:59
It's always funny to see cuckservatives try to empathize with others. It's bizarre and ofputting.

But I guess it's expected since a complete and utter lack of empathy (cognitive or otherwise) defines modern reactionaries.
Habebe
Member
Sun Jun 14 09:09:52
I've always liked the Japanese.

There is no reasonable argument as to why FDR should get a pass while others have not.
Dakyron
Member
Sun Jun 14 11:11:50
FDR was a war time president in a war against the Japanese. Does not excuse the behavior, but does provide important historical context.
Habebe
Member
Sun Jun 14 11:14:22
To add context we were in a war he instigated. We were also in a war.agaimst Italy and Germany...no detainment.

Also and more apt for the blm movement he nominated an open klansmen to the scotus.
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Sun Jun 14 12:27:48
Most historians agree FDR did NOT instigate Pearl Harbor.
Habebe
Member
Sun Jun 14 12:31:13
Did he not sieze japanese assets im the US and execute a naval blockade?
Dakyron
Member
Sun Jun 14 15:37:47
"To add context we were in a war he instigated. We were also in a war.agaimst Italy and Germany...no detainment. "

This is completely inaccurate. All of it.

First, Japan started the war by attacking Pearl Harbor, after showing aggression against their regional neighbors and being complete pieces of shit(Nanking, etc).

Second, Germans and Italians were also put into camps, although in lesser numbers than the Japanese.
Dakyron
Member
Sun Jun 14 15:42:24
"Did he not sieze japanese assets im the US and execute a naval blockade? "

After Japan's invasion of China and Manchuria, the US put an embargo on oil and other goods going to Japan. This came after Japan captured South Pacific territory that was supplying China with oil in its fight with Japan.

There was absolutely no naval blockade prior to Pearl Harbor. Japan attacked Pearl Harbor hoping to cripple the US Navy in the Pacific so that it could then conquer the Philippines and have all the oil it would need.
Habebe
Member
Sun Jun 14 21:04:00
D akyron, FDR stole all japanese assets in the US. When Japan evem tried t o negotiate pulling out of Info China, FDR demanded full retreat from all siezed lands.... Aka he wanted war. He wanted. An excuse to enter the European realm as well which he had attempted to do for some.time but the people of the US wanted no parts.

Side note. My family moved to Hilltown, PA in 1936 from Germany, never interned. For fucks sake my GG Grandfather was a literal Nazi, he was an in the SS in a tankers something. Brigade?

So he siezed Japan's assets and supplied there enemies and that doesn't instigate?
Dakyron
Member
Mon Jun 15 00:01:41
So you are a NAZI sympathizer. Got it.
Dakyron
Member
Mon Jun 15 00:34:56
Japan was allied with Germany, which had essentially declared war on the western world. Japan had invaded and conquered China and much of Southeast Asia, with obvious plans on moving into the Phillipines.

The US countered by seizing Japanese assets in the US and a trade embargo.

Japan countered by launching a surprise military attack of the US Naval fleet at Pearl Harbor.

And you claim that FDR was the instigator here?

How fucking stupid are you?
Habebe
Member
Mon Jun 15 00:47:03
Fdr had wanted to enter the war for a while but public support was by far in favor of being neutral.So he pushed and pushed until he.got his desired outcome, a reason for war with public support now as well.
kargen
Member
Mon Jun 15 02:41:11
There were German and Italian internment camps. The US also accepted Germans that were deported from Latin America and put them in camps here. They were not to the same degree as the Japanese camps but they did exist. It was easier for a German to hide in the US than a Japanese person.

The Italians and the Japanese received official apologies. The German people so far have not.
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 15 03:09:58
There is a difference between interning German and Italian nationals and interning people of Japanese decent.

On the point of statues. The historical tradition of defacing, destroying, removing and replacing statues and monuments is about two minutes older than the creation of the first monument.

They are not and have never been permanent installations.

The BBC has a nice article on why Egyptian statues and monuments generally do not have noses.

Monuments and statues of historical value can be saved and placed in museums of curators think they have merit.

Otherwise: Statues and monuments slowly rotate as times change. Volcanic eruptions can interfer with the process, but in general, freezing the process is as counter historical as trying to re-invent eras passed (see Mussolini and other fascist regimes for details).
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 15 03:13:01
Monuments of FDR looks like they will outlast those of the other two "great" allied leaders of wwii.

More for his contributions to lessening the impact of the great depression than for his wartime leadership.
kargen
Member
Mon Jun 15 04:18:12
"There is a difference between interning German and Italian nationals and interning people of Japanese decent"

What is that difference?
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 15 04:21:36
Kargen
Bithright and naturalized citizenships.

Most of the interned Japanese were American citizens. Compared to none of the Italian and German internees.
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 15 04:25:27
Strik naturalized. You interned birthright citizens.
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 15 04:30:01
Its all told a very sordid story. There was not path to citizenship for Japanese immigrants arriving before 1924 when immigration from Japan was banned outright.

Compared to the hordes arriving from Europe and getting citizenship quickly.
Habebe
Member
Mon Jun 15 04:58:29
Jergul, You know. There is an old saying about For.

" We had a depression, but it took FDR to make it great"
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 15 07:46:08
Habebe
Folksy bullshit. No doubt from some 1990s Chicago school propaganda outreach programme.

Keynsian economics always dampen economic downturns.
Habebe
Member
Mon Jun 15 08:21:43
Ok comrade.
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 15 08:38:47
You should probably add Alte in front of that comrade you like to throw about.

Your brothers in Brazil might otherwise be insulted.
kargen
Member
Mon Jun 15 19:49:23
"Most of the interned Japanese were American citizens. Compared to none of the Italian and German internees."

"As the war in Europe continued, America was laying the groundwork. The 1940 census introduced a new question. It now required that all respondents included their ethnicity. This would make them easier to identify after America entered the war.

Also in 1940, a new law was passed so that all aliens over the age of 14 had to be registered.

Following the attack on Pearl Harbor in 1941, but before America had declared war on Germany, Roosevelt announced that Germans, Italians, and Japanese were now considered to be enemy aliens under the DOJ Alien Enemy Control Unit Program.

Anyone who could be described as an ethnic German came under suspicion. Cases were looked at on an individual basis. In theory, people were only to be detained if they there was some evidence to suggest that they posed a threat.

As a result, 11,000 people were taken to DOJ camps. The majority of these were German nationals, but the number also included US citizens of German descent."
Y2A
Member
Mon Jun 15 20:16:39
"proto-socialist hero"

god forbid we take care of old people with social security and medicare. that tax money is meant for the bourgeois class that's lived off their capital for their entire lives.
jergul
large member
Tue Jun 16 03:03:26
Kargen
See? That is why you are a racist.

What % of birthright ethnic Germans were interned compared to what % of birthright ethnic Japanese?

A stab in the dark estimate would be 0.001% birthright Germans to 70% birthright birthright Japanese.

jergul
large member
Tue Jun 16 03:10:58
"Somewhere between 110,000 and 120,000 people of Japanese ancestry were subject to this mass exclusion program, of whom about 80,000 Nisei (second generation) and Sansei (third generation) were U.S. citizens"

"In the 1940 US census, some 1,237,000 persons identified as being of German birth; 5 million persons had both parents born in Germany; and 6 million persons had at least one parent born in Germany.[25] German immigrants had not been prohibited from becoming naturalized United States citizens and many did so"

kargen
Member
Tue Jun 16 12:22:30
Facts are not racist and people that point out those facts are not racist for doing so.

You do realize they changed the questions on the 1940 census as a way to try and track all the Japanese, German and Italian citizens? You also know it would be easier for a German to blend in than it would be for a Japanese person.
Also remember the whole country was still pissed that Japan actually attacked the United States. That would lead to a more aggressive detainment program for the Japanese.
And yes race also played a major part in how the Japanese were treated but you said "Most of the interned Japanese were American citizens. Compared to none of the Italian and German internees."
None means not any. So even one would not be none. Most of the interments were through relocating people off the west coast. The US feared an invasion could take place on the west coast. The Japanese taken were also almost exclusively from the west coast. The Japanese population was heavily centered on the West Coast. The German population more in the central and northern regions of the US.
jergul
large member
Tue Jun 16 17:37:02
Kargen
You are a rascist for framing Japanese interment against German intermentment and suggesting a false equivalency.

I am sorry that I was unclear on that point.

Your explanations for why the US was a racist hellhole back in 1942 are amusing.

You will never get anywhere personally or as a nation unless you start recognizing great injustices with the most profound of regret.
Rugian
Member
Tue Jun 16 18:53:43
How many Japanese Norwegians were there in 1942 again?

We know there were a lot of German residents there at the time of course.
Rugian
Member
Tue Jun 16 18:56:59
Anyway, we did the whole anti-German thing in WWI.

Skin color has never been a barrier to persecution for us after all.
kargen
Member
Tue Jun 16 19:22:04
Has nothing to do with race and I did not equate the two. Go back and read the thread. Habebe stated Germans and Italians were not put into internment camps. Dakyron and I pointed out those camps did exist. You came in and said there was a difference. Neither Dak or I claimed there was no difference. We only stated they existed.

I asked you the difference. Your answer was incorrect and I provided you with the info to show your answer to be incorrect. So you got all in a fuss and started throwing around the term racist to deflect from your error.

Your response has been very clear this entire time. You were wrong and instead of admitting you made a mistake you started tossing out insults. I even told you "And yes race also played a major part in how the Japanese were treated" and you came back with "suggesting a false equivalency".

And I'm guessing the 7000 Germans that lost all their property just like the Japanese did were not sitting around in camp thinking well thank god the people of German descent from Pennsylvania got to keep their houses.

It isn't even that big a mistake as it is a part of US history that rarely gets mentioned. You should have no problem admitting you didn't know this part of history.
jergul
large member
Wed Jun 17 00:47:24
Kargen
You are drawing false equations again. The fate of German Americans was far different and far better than the fate of Japanese Americans during wwii.

That the US was a racist, segragated country in 1942 is beyond dispute.

The only thing you are demonstrating through appolgism is how little has changed since then.

And I fucking knew that part of US history. You bigoted shit.
kargen
Member
Wed Jun 17 01:33:28
"You are drawing false equations again. The fate of German Americans was far different and far better than the fate of Japanese Americans during wwii."

Never said it wasn't. You claimed no German citizens were put into internment camps. That is the entire argument. You are running off on tangents because you refuse to admit you were wrong.
Period.
"That the US was a racist, segragated country in 1942 is beyond dispute."
I agree. That also has not one fucking thing to do with the topic at hand. You know the one you didn't know shit about ie German interment camps.

If you knew history you wouldn't have fucked it up.
I know it is hard for you to get over the hate you feel for the German people because of what they did to your country but to deny German internment camps existed in beneath contempt. And you have the audacity to call me bigoted. Fucking priceless.
jergul
large member
Wed Jun 17 01:48:10
Kargen
Deflection. How trite.

You are what, citing the detention of 7000 German Americans from a pool of 8 million. 7000 does barely registers and is likely consistent with factual security concerns (American nazis regardless of ethnicity were often interned or jailed).

Internment on the basis of factual nationality is regulated by Geneva Conventions.

You are a racist and a bigot unable or unwilling to recognizes great injustice with profound regret.
CrownRoyal
Member
Wed Jun 17 08:17:57
speaking of angry mob pulling down statues in US,

http://www...pulling-down-statue-george-iii

"On July 9, 1776, the Declaration of Independence was read for the first time in New York in front of George Washington and his troops. In reaction to what had been read, soldiers and citizens went to Bowling Green, a park in Manhattan, where a lead statue of King George III on horseback stood. The mob of people pulled down the statue, and later the lead was melted down to make musket balls, or bullets for use in the war for independence. (3) Careful records were kept, and it is known that 42, 088 bullets were made. (4)

This engraving, and the painting that it is based upon, show a very romanticized version of the event. According to the eye witness accounts, the mob included soldiers, sailors, blacks, and a few lower class citizens, not the women, children, and Native Americans pictured here. Also, the artist portrays King George’s statue incorrectly"
kargen
Member
Wed Jun 17 14:38:31
You know I haven't even argued with you on whether or not I am a racist or a bigot. There is zero way for you to know that one way or another.

You said no German US citizens were in internment camps. I showed you there were. How many doesn't matter if it was more than zero. You said none.

I pointed out you were wrong and you took a page from the left wing nut jobs here in the US and started shouting racism.
There is nothing racist about what I said.

"You are a racist and a bigot unable or unwilling to recognizes great injustice with profound regret."
And this is just another attempt for you to deflect away from your ignorance of US history. Since you asked though, yes the internment camps were a travesty for all involved. A great injustice was done then and that the camps are not more prominent in history classes is a shame.

Now back to the discussion. You were wrong and still fail to admit you were wrong. Basically for you to be correct zero would need to be equal to any number less than 7400. Why? Because you said none. None. That was your claim. No (as in zero) German descent US citizens were put in those camps according to you. Not so small a number it didn't matter but none. And I still bet it mattered to the ones that were detained.

"Internment on the basis of factual nationality is regulated by Geneva Conventions."

Yeah it is.
"They shall also be assembled in quarters as far as possible according to nationality, language and customs."
Ya know what that means? It means nothing in this conversation because you said no US citizens of German descent were interned. We do know there were some and as it turns out they were held according to how the Geneva Convention stated they should be. Again doesn't matter for this discussion because according to you there were none being held at all. If there were none being held as you claim then how they were held doesn't really play into the conversation at all.

A little advice. When you find yourself in a deep hole put down the shovel. Nothing you can type will change that you were wrong about internment camps in the United States so it might be best to just quit typing and move on.
jergul
large member
Wed Jun 17 16:16:55
Stop being a fucktard.

I did not say 0 German american citizens were detained. Lindberg was having a huge rally on the eve of pearl harbour for fucks sake.

I am quite aware that the US had a Nazi party and many nazi sympathisers, many of whom were of German decent (more than a few German Americans returned to the Reich when Hitler called them back in the late 30s).

So yah, of course US nationals of German decent were detained. They were an actual security threat after all (this was when German subs were sailing into NY harbour and sabotage actually took place until the Mob got on board and did their patriotic duty in US ports).

And more importantly - of course I knew that.

So several thousand from a pool of 8 million German Americans were detained.

So say good bye to your deflection, bro. It had no merit.

Your false equivalency is racist. Get a grip, and offer profound regret for a historical wrong.

Or explain to us why it is so hard for you to offer profound regret.
kargen
Member
Wed Jun 17 17:23:28
"I did not say 0 German american citizens were detained."
jergul

"Most of the interned Japanese were American citizens. Compared to none of the Italian and German internees."
also jergul

None = 0

This is what I pointed out to you and your response was to call me racist.

I never made an equivalency. You invented that because your ignorance embarrasses you.
jergul
large member
Wed Jun 17 18:21:29
Kargen
The immediate post that followed said "you interned birthright citizens". That was without any intervening posts from your side.

Same difference. Virtually none (a few 1000 of 8 million).

Your false equivalency remains equating a fraction of a % of German Americans detained with most Japanese Americans detained.

You remain a racist.

Feel free to offer your profound regret for the historical wrongs inflicted on the Japanese American population.

You will still be a racist, but at least you will be working with yourself.
kargen
Member
Wed Jun 17 21:42:20
Again I did no equating. None. Okay not none because for you none could be 7000.

I did not equate German camps nor numbers to those of the Japanese. I pointed out they existed.

Still not arguing with you as to whether I am racist or not. Just as before there is no way you can know that one way or the other.

You are still wrong and calling me racist is not going to change that. None will always be the same as zero when it comes to numbers.

Do you know what "travesty" means?

Do you know what "great injustice" means?

Do you know what "shame" means?

Doesn't matter if you know the definitions or not none still does not equal zero and you don't get to change your answer to virtually none this late in the game.

You were wrong and you remain wrong. You are going to be wrong when you wake up in the morning and still wrong when you go to bed again at night. Then when you wake up...you will be wrong.
jergul
large member
Thu Jun 18 03:12:15
Kargen
Incorrect you racist fucktard. As I expounded on.

Feel free to renounce the detainment of Japanese Americans at any time and express your profound regret that it ever happened.
kargen
Member
Thu Jun 18 03:33:23
You didn't expound shit. I doubt you know what expound means.

Let's go about this in a different way. Brahmagupta, around 650 AD formalized arithmetic operations using zero. In it's 1370 year history since that time zero has meant none. It hasn't meant almost none. It certainly hasn't meant 7400.
You said none. You were wrong.

This isn't about how I feel. This isn't about how you feel. This is about your claim there were no US citizens of German descent in camps. No comparison to the Japanese camps was made. No comparison to the Italian camps that thus far have been left out of the conversation was made.

"I did not say 0 German american citizens were detained."
jergul

"Most of the interned Japanese were American citizens. Compared to none of the Italian and German internees."
also jergul

Notice where you said "none" instead of few?

jergul
large member
Thu Jun 18 03:44:38
Kargen
Stop adding autist to racist fucktard. It would make your moniker awkward.

Already dealt with. In the post that immediately followed the one you are citing rather dishonestly out of context because, well, you are a racist and would rather that not be the focal point here. We do not edit posts here, so revise by supplementing in later posts.

jergul
large member
Thu Jun 18 05:58:48
With that said, racist has some of the problems the term rapist has.

Everyone has huge problems accepting they are one or the other. We are slowly accepting that there are many more rapists and racists amongst us than is comfortable to imagine.

Ultimately, it means we need to lower the threshold on how awful we think those two states are.

He is a rapist, but has served his time and is in therapy now. He is a racist and lost half his house in a civic case, but is currently trying to mend his world view.

That kind of acceptance.
Habebe
Member
Thu Jun 18 08:22:13
Jergul, Well, can we agree there is nothing illegal about being racist.

A rapist implies they raped someone.

A racist can is a " thought crime" now acting on that to an illegal manner is different.

As far as the Japanese internment issue. I realize that it was acceptable at the time, but universally it was unfair and racist and IMO wrong.
kargen
Member
Thu Jun 18 12:31:50
"I did not say 0 German american citizens were detained."
jergul

"Most of the interned Japanese were American citizens. Compared to none of the Italian and German internees."
also jergul
patom
Member
Thu Jun 18 14:52:17
I must say, I never heard of this till today. I don't recall reading of it in any books or heard of it at all when I was in school.

The number of Germans detained was 11,000 not 1,000. Also there were 3,000 Italian Americans interned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans
jergul
large member
Thu Jun 18 15:36:20
Patom
The German numbers mix up German aliens and German Americans, so low 1000nds of American citizens of German background.

The big thing is that this is against the backdrop of 8 million German Americans. Only a tiny fraction of that group was detained.

It is reasonable to suspect there were valid grounds for detaining the few that were held due to German government recruitment activity in the years before the US entered the war.

Compared with most Japanse Americans being detained.
kargen
Member
Thu Jun 18 18:30:00
Reconcile these two statements.

"I did not say 0 German american citizens were detained."
jergul

"Most of the interned Japanese were American citizens. Compared to none of the Italian and German internees."
also jergul

"It is reasonable to suspect there were valid grounds for detaining the few that were held due to German government recruitment activity in the years before the US entered the war."

There was and I explained it above. The US feared an invasion on the West Coast so rounded up citizens of Japan, Germany and Italy mostly along the west coast. Those that lived to the East were not interned unless some other circumstance warranted on a case by case basis.
jergul
large member
Fri Jun 19 05:05:54
Kargen
Your apologism is pathetic, but quite in keeping with your racism.

The only real threat was intel so that Germans could better target allied shipping. This was known at the time.
kargen
Member
Fri Jun 19 05:08:10
Reconcile these two statements. Then tell us why you hate the German people.

"I did not say 0 German american citizens were detained."
jergul

"Most of the interned Japanese were American citizens. Compared to none of the Italian and German internees."
also jergul
jergul
large member
Fri Jun 19 05:18:41
Kargen
Insert virtually before none as I clarified in the post immediately following the one you are spamming.

We revise our statements in this forum by followup posts.

You have been here a while. You know that.

But I will take your blatant dishonest as acknowledgement that you are aware of your racist slant.

How otherwise to explain your butthurt?



jergul
large member
Fri Jun 19 05:20:25
Mon Jun 15 04:21:36
Kargen
Bithright and naturalized citizenships.

Most of the interned Japanese were American citizens. Compared to none of the Italian and German internees.
jergul
large member
Delete
Manage User Mon Jun 15 04:25:27
Strik naturalized. You interned birthright citizens.

==============

Revised 4 minutes later. Kargen splamalot, liealot.
Habebe
Member
Fri Jun 19 06:13:30
Camt we all.just get along amd agree fdr was a lying, warmongering commie lover?
kargen
Member
Fri Jun 19 18:56:39
jergul yep you are correct and I owe you an apology. I missed your correction.
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