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Utopia Talk / Politics / The Alien franchise is problematic
Rugian
Member
Fri Jun 19 19:43:01
Sky slaps a race warning on 'outdated' movies like Breakfast At Tiffany's, Flash Gordon, Aladdin and classic The Jungle Book (but even includes the 2016 version)

Sky has warned viewers that Breakfast at Tiffany's, Flash Gordon, Aladdin and even a version of The Jungle Book from as recently as 2016 have 'outdated values', as broadcasters respond to concerns that some content is no longer acceptable.

Sky Cinema, the broadcasting giant's movie service, has issued a disclaimer to its subscribers that some of its content 'has outdated attitudes, languages and cultural depictions which may cause offence today'.

Sixteen films have the warning, including The Goonies, Aliens, Dumbo, Gone With The Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, Tropic Thunder, The Jazz Singer, The Littlest Rebel, The Lone Ranger, Balls of Fury and The Last Samurai.

It comes after other TV shows and films were taken off streaming services or had warnings added, most notably when Little Britain most notably pulled from Netflix, BBC iPlayer and BritBox in a row over blackface characters.

http://www...e-Book-outdated-attitudes.html
Rugian
Member
Fri Jun 19 19:51:14
Personally I think this is a good move. Sigourney Weaver being a bankable action star in the 80s flies directly in the face of the modern feminist narrative that women have never been able to thrive in Hollywood, and that male fans are nothing more scumbag misyoginsts who cant tolerate women in leading roles.

If Aliens was any indication, it's that men actually like strong female characters, they just dont like Mary Sues who sole characteristic is that they have a vagina and are therefore automatically awesome in the eyes of the SJW screenwriters propping them up. And, well, we cant have THAT rumor spread around.

Time to memory hole this inconvenient truth so that the fight against patriarchy can continue unimpeded.
Habebe
Member
Fri Jun 19 20:14:53
Im amazed South Park still seems to get away with shit.
sam adams
Member
Fri Jun 19 20:18:35
Ahh yes, the values that built and maintained the civilized world are "outdated".

That should work out real well.
Seb
Member
Sat Jun 20 04:55:48
Alien and Terminator 2 came out when a female lead was novel, and there was no social media. As soon as female leads became fractionally more common, the fanboys went berserk and had lots of channels to complain.

The very term Mary Sue is popularised over the internet, and twisted it's meaning from "unrealistic author insert" (origin, I've been told was from badly written female written fan fic of original series star trek whose initial audience base by numbers was women - sci fi being silly and William shatner being easy on the female eye).

Now it means "female character that's "over powered"." Nobody ever called superman a Mary Sue, though being written by Jewish immigrants as an all-powerful invincible immigrant with the very name adopted by the German oppressors, he's both all powerful and more obviously a write-in of the author into their own work.

And yet on every objective metric, female characters are still under represented in movies. Less lines (even in female centric action films).

Honestly this moaning about female characters and attempts to appeal to the 50% of the population that are female on the basis that the default charter should be male and deviation from this is somehow wrong tells you very very little about the film industry (other than it is nakedly capitalist) and much more about fandom.
Pillz
Member
Sat Jun 20 07:50:31
Seb kill yourself

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 20 07:59:02
The fanboys go berserk everytime you stray away from canon. Nobody whined about Battle Angel Alita or Mother because of the female leads. An all female cast Ghostbusters is like redoing Aliens with Erik Ripley as the male protagonist or redoing the Tomb raider franchise with Larry Croft with really big pecs.

When I was 13 our class went to see a ”modern” take on Romeo and Juliet and it was ”crazy” all the roled were reversed! Amazing stuff if you are 13. Apart from the fact that when I was 10 I did my own take on a Swedish Astrid Lindgren (creator of pippi longstocking) classic Ronja Rövardotter, with the same ”avant garde” take on of flipping the roles. I’m 39 now and not as easily impresses by things 10 year old me figured out when he was 10.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Jun 20 08:57:32
"Nobody ever called superman a Mary Sue...all-powerful invincible"

Are you kidding? People talk about how boring Superman is all the fucking time, precisely because of this. It's a pretty big reason Snyder's deviation to a realistic, imperfect product of both worlds was well received by a large audience (and there were still plenty of people pissed about it).

As Nim stated, people can be pretty protective of existing franchises. Dan Slott whined pretty extensively about Spiderman activating "Instant-kill mode" against the mindless Outrider army of Thanos with the universe at stake.

It has little to do with sexism. Refer to The Phantom Menace.

"And yet on every objective metric, female characters are still under represented in movies."

Why would a business make it a point to cater equally to a demographic that spends less on the product?

http://www...oing-to-the-movies-gender-usa/
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 20 09:46:30
That is another aspect of this, what forwyn touches on. It is assumed that women beyond the novelty, enjoy action movies and women in archetypical male hero roles. They don’t, they think we are silly. Try to explain to a women the fascination with organized violence every male on this forum has when they nerd over nuclear propulsion on missiles or the latest troop activity in Syria - There is nothing fascinating with violence.
hood
Member
Sat Jun 20 10:00:42
"Nobody ever called superman a Mary Sue"

Yeah, it's almost like Mary Sue is the name for flawless female characters. Superman is indeed a good example of a flawless male character, and plenty of people call him kinda stupid (because he's got no flaws). People also say Reed Richards (Fantastic 4) is fucking stupid, because he's written in a way that he's just so smart that he can invent a machine to defeat anything. Build up tension until Reed's device gets made isn't good story telling.

Ultimately, people criticize female characters with flaws more than they do male characters with flaws, which leads to people writing female characters with few, if any, flaws. Thus, the term Mary Sue becomes more relevant to female characters.


"Honestly this moaning about female characters"

Um, didn't you start the moaning about female characters?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 20 10:15:26
” people criticize female characters with flaws more than they do male characters with flaws,”

Yea, those people are called other women.
hood
Member
Sat Jun 20 10:18:29
It doesn't really matter who is doing the criticizing. The fact that writing a female character with a big flaw could lead to the kind of retarded criticism you'd never receive for writing a male character the same way is why writers end up having fewer flaws for their female characters.

See: Tony Stark vs. Jessica Jones
Who do you think received more criticism for their substance abuse habits?
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 20 10:19:28
What garbage. Entirely the wrong way to look at things.

People don't get upset at things like the Ghostbusters reboot because of internalized misogyny. They get upset because these female-centric films are being driven by SJW screenwriterss who put out shitty products as a vehicle for their ideology, and then blame men (aka the supposed fanbase) for being sexist when the films fail.

Hell, in the case of Ghostbusters, the director didn't even wait until the film was out to attack his own target audience. And then Hollywood wonders why these films flop?

The reality is that female action protagonists are perfectly fine, we just don't want them blatantly shoved down our throats with a third-wave feminist message attached to their characters. Emily Blunt in Sicario was great. Bree "white dudes shouldn't watch my movies" Larson in Captain Marvel was a fucking disaster.

Give us a strong female protagonist whose gender is incidental rather than central to her character, and men love it.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Jun 20 10:32:35
Incidentally, Critical Drinker touches on Sarah Connor vs. Captain Marvel, and it goes beyond "Linda Hamilton just got in at the right time, when it was novel".

http://youtu.be/M-t3UAeRgdE?t=473
Wrath of Orion
Member
Sat Jun 20 10:54:45
So glad I can just watch movies and enjoy them without getting butthurt about political messages, real or imagined.
hood
Member
Sat Jun 20 11:10:15
Yeah, dunno how Captain Marvel was a disaster. It beat the Marvel average in opening box and gross, and was a good superhero movie overall.

http://www...pDqAhWCZ80KHbqGAMkQ9QF6BAgFEAI
Habebe
Member
Sat Jun 20 11:20:00
Rugian, Ghostbusters was a shame. They actually had good female comics and made an epic piece of shit.
Habebe
Member
Sat Jun 20 11:20:09
Rugian, Ghostbusters was a shame. They actually had good female comics and made an epic piece of shit.
Habebe
Member
Sat Jun 20 11:25:54
It was like Joe Pesci's salsa album. I love the actor but that was hard to watch.

obaminated
Member
Sat Jun 20 11:26:37
Capt marvel was bad because danvers doesnt earn her powers, isnt flawed and has no arc.
Habebe
Member
Sat Jun 20 11:39:36
Kill bill, does anyone not lobe that movie, domimated by strong female characters, but you know what? It was well made.

Game.of thrones, Cersei, Danny and my favorite Olenna ( bad ass old lady)

Better call.saul, Kim Wexler.

Penny dreadfull LA- Natalie Former is amazing and shows her ability to play almost anyone.

The Practice- Katherine Mannheim playing a great strong character as a fat attorney, new at the time when fat females rarely played lead.roles.

Just off the top of my head.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 20 11:47:15
Hood
If it doesn’t matter then neither does your question framed in ”man this, woman that”.
smart dude
Member
Sat Jun 20 12:09:16
what is cuckhead whining about now? op is too long. some gay shit right?
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 20 12:13:02
A five-paragraph news article is too long for you to process?

I hope for you sake that the retail and construction industries bounce back quickly, because you're clearly not cut out for white-collar employment.
smart dude
Member
Sat Jun 20 12:14:13
let me guess. some random person on the internet triggered Rugian again, and now his pathetic obese ass us raging in his basement. *yawn.*
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 20 12:15:06
I don't have a basement.
smart dude
Member
Sat Jun 20 12:15:38
oh it's the daily mail. lol sorry I dont have time for shitty tabloids. keep crying though, cuck
smart dude
Member
Sat Jun 20 12:16:39
"don't have a basement."

I guess the landlord kicked you out after daddy died?
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 20 12:19:01
That doesn't even make sense. If I had a landlord, I wouldn't be residing in the building basement.
smart dude
Member
Sat Jun 20 12:24:03
Is ruguan literally retarded? if so I might feel bad


the implication, turds-for-brains, is that your faggot dad is no longer around to pay rent for you, so you no longer have access to your rat-infested dorito-crumfed red-bull-can-littered battlestation of a basement.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 20 12:29:41
You're the one that's not making sense. If I'm renting an apartment, it's certainly not going to be in a basement. The basement is where the common building systems/storage would be, not residential units. Also I'm pretty sure it would be against municipal code to let that space.
smart dude
Member
Sat Jun 20 12:31:49
^most autistic shit I have ever read.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 20 12:32:19
^has clearly never rented before
smart dude
Member
Sat Jun 20 12:34:57
^literally has never heard of a housing unit that includes a basement. how are you even a grownup?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 20 12:39:21
SD
Hey everyone I have not read the article nor do I understand the premise of Rugians triggering, he must be an autistic basement dweller.

Rugian (autist mode)
I don’t have a basement, you make no sense as per legal definitions in the housing industry.

I would say Rugian made a fair response.
smart dude
Member
Sat Jun 20 12:44:28
Am I living in some kind of dreamland? Am I the only motherfucker in the world whose home had a basement? Am I making this shit up? Am I crazy? Is having a basement so goddamn farfetched? Is renting a house with a basement such an alien concept?

Is this the goddamn twilight zone? It's pretty goddamn simple. A basement. YES, in a residential dwelling. WOW, really hard to absorb that.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 20 13:38:32
No, ”basements” are not considered ”residential dwellings”. At least here in sweden they are categorically excluded from the residential total floor area. We have boyta = living area bedrooms, livingroom etc. and biyta = basement, attic, garage and such.
Habebe
Member
Sat Jun 20 14:00:53
I miss my basement , hey are rare in SC due to flooding issues. In Perkasie I had a sweet basement that Personally fixed up into a work area. That basement was built to withstand a fucking A bomb damm near ot had.lole 4 foot thick stone and concrete walls with a side room that used to be a coal bin. I sealed every thing, all new wiring etc. An above ground steel building just isn't the same....I never should of sold the place.
Habebe
Member
Sat Jun 20 14:05:06
I think I can add some clarity to this discussion though.

SD is talking about renting a house not an apartment. Depending on the region , such as where I grew up in South East Pennsylvania, almost everyone had a basement.


I think Nimatzo and Rugian are trolling him rather successfully I might add, at least I was amused.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Jun 20 14:47:00
South chiming in, basements are pretty rare, because a) winters are milder so they're not as necessary, and b) the clay here is expansive and flooding is common, so it's much cheaper to have a separate storm shelter. Some poor areas have communal ones
hood
Member
Sat Jun 20 14:55:25
"Capt marvel was bad because danvers doesnt earn her powers, isnt flawed and has no arc."

Peter Quill didn't earn being half god.
Thor didn't earn being asgard (or his lightning abilities in Ragnarok).
The Hulk didn't earn his anger issues (in the MCU).

I could go on, but it's actually easier to list the characters who did earn their abilities.

And it's pretty clear that Danvers' flaw was her lack of confidence. It may not be a particularly weighty flaw, but she clearly had to overcome it to defeat Yon. Sure, she's a bit superman-y, but so was Thanos; it makes an even playing field.

It's also a Marvel movie. There's only so much depth they're going to include.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Jun 20 15:20:47
Peter's gimmick was a one-off. He started with powers and now he doesn't have them anymore.

Thor's entire early character arc was that his power made him arrogant and prideful.

Hulk hasn't even had a standalone film, precisely because they jumped the shark. If he's already conquered his accidental transformations, then he alone controls when and where to defeat any threat.

Danvers always had mega-confidence. She was flying an experimental aircraft as a USAF pilot. She defied random ass alien shocktroopers and destroyed an unknown aircraft drive.

She lacked the memories to distinguish between friend and foe, that's not the same.
Habebe
Member
Sat Jun 20 17:06:30
Forwyn, I get the flooding part, plus atleast around (Florence, SC) here I've noticed anywhere you dig there seems to be a good chance of running into ground water.

The mild winters I'm guessing your talking about pipe freezes. But why would clay cost be an issue with basements?
Forwyn
Member
Sat Jun 20 19:59:13
When soil expands, it makes foundations uneven and can cause cracking and increase cost of upkeep.

It's not a huge deal if a separate shelter cracks and floods, just pump it in your free time. If it's under your house causing mildew and a black mold infestation and destroys your foundation, it's another story.

The foundation is the same reason re: winters. Foundations should be below the frost line. If you're in the North, you've already dug deep and the basement is a low added cost. In the South that line is much closer to the surface, so a basement is more of a luxury.
Seb
Member
Sun Jun 21 00:17:37
Hood:

That's the point.

Mary Sue isn't the name for flawless female characters. It was the name for inserting the author into the narrative as a flawless character as a form of wish fulfilment, and could apply to any character regardless of sex.

It has *become* "flawless female character", but is often applied to "any female character". Interestingly there is no equivalent term for flawless male character. Why is that?
Seb
Member
Sun Jun 21 00:32:28
Hood:

Spot on re Captain marvel, very clear arc.

She starts off believing her boss is her friend and mentor, who has convinced her that she needs to be more like him to be powerful and suppress her emotions; but In the end it turns out he's actually trying to keep her down, undermining her confidence, and preventing her from accessing her full powers that she has inately.

Gosh. I wonder what that could be a thinly disguised allegory for.

I suspect some of the people who complain about that movie kinda miss the fact that you need to have some empathy for women.
The fact she's inately very powerful is a feature not a bug.
Seb
Member
Sun Jun 21 01:01:59
Forwyn:

"Danvers always had mega-confidence. She was flying an experimental aircraft as a USAF pilot. She defied random ass alien shocktroopers and destroyed an unknown aircraft drive"

She had no memory of this, and the guy that shot her down spent the first scene of the movie demonstrably undermining her as part of what is clearly a long campaign to convince her she needs to limit her use
of her powers because she "can't control them". They want to control and expoloit her, and the way they have done that is to convince her she's emotional, unstable, and in need of their guidance. All of which are untrue.

The bit st the end where she just blasts yon rog rather than "proving" she can beat him in a fist fight is the bookend to that. She now realises she's never needed to play by these rules that were always designed to keep her in her place.

This is screamingly obvious about self confidence, and not paying to rules that artificially limit you.
Seb
Member
Sun Jun 21 01:02:22
They really couldn't have been more clear and on the nose about that.
hood
Member
Sun Jun 21 01:11:00
"Mary Sue isn't the name for flawless female characters"

Twas always for female characters. Else they wouldn't have male versions (ex: Gary Stu) of the phenomenon.


"It has *become* "flawless female character","

Yeah, it's almost like language changes over time. The updated meaning isn't any less valid than the old meaning, especially when they are very similar anyway.


"Interestingly there is no equivalent term for flawless male character."

It is extremely interesting that you believe this, but that is not my problem. You should probably look into the origin of your own ignorance for that one. Also, see above for an example of the male version.


"turns out [her boss was] preventing her from accessing her full powers that she has inately."

No, that would have been the Kree Central Intelligence and the chip they installed in her. Her boss was just the verbal abuse/life coach.


"Thor's entire early character arc was that his power made him arrogant and prideful."

Yeah. But he didn't earn his power any more than Captain Marvel did. It's even more pronounced with Thor, since even up through Ragnarok, he believed his power was given to him by Odin (through Mjollnir and/or unlocking his lightning ability through the vision he had during the fight with Hela).

Essentially, Thor was given literally everything, and on a silver platter. And all he had to do was be taught a lesson on humility. Danvers was given literally everything through a freak accident and explosion. All she had to do was gain confidence in herself to unlock it. They're fairly similar arcs in that sense.
Wrath of Orion
Member
Sun Jun 21 01:33:56
They're fucking Marvel movies. Regarding all the subplot/subtext/whatever bullshit - get a fucking life.
Forwyn
Member
Sun Jun 21 18:10:56
"She had no memory of this"
"All she had to do was gain confidence in herself to unlock it."

Right. She got her memories back. That's not the same as personal growth. Her personal arc was simply discovering her employers were liars.

"And all he had to do was be taught a lesson on humility."

I mean...that's the basis of the hero's journey. Cap had all the morals and none of the power. Thor had all of the power and none of the morals. Even when they acquire both, they fight villains who act as foils and are capable of matching them on a physical, or at least mental level. Thor is fighting cosmic entities and regularly getting his ass handed to him.

Danvers just had to reject muh patriarchy, and then immediately outclass the Hulk in strength and durability. Maybe future films will show a limit to her power, but for now, she hasn't been really threatened at all. Just makes for a really boring female Superman, trying to piggyback on Wonder Woman's success (which it did, lol).
Seb
Member
Mon Jun 22 02:30:58
Hood:

Obviously the language has changed. The question I'm posing is to stop and think about how and why it's changed.

It's changed specifically by a massively increased misuse of the term (given its original meaning) to be applied generally to female leads.

I've literally never heard the term Gary stu, which a quick Google trend shows is used far far less frequently.

http://tre...xplore?q=Gary%20stu,Mary%20sue

Re the film, he was in on it. The fight scene at the beginning, you can see him provoking her.

WoO:

Narratives and the story they tell matter even if you don't pick up on them. It's what makes some resonate and others not. CF. Narrative archetypes, hero Seth a thousand faces etc.

Forwyn:

It's a different story than the one you expected. It's not a coming of age story gussied up with super powers. It's an allegory about escaping an abusive relationship. Therefore, earning her power as a metaphor for a young person carving their way into adulthood does not make sense. Instead it's about realising she is in one, and recognising she isn't dependent on her "partner" and has the power to leave it.

Different story. This is like complaining that Star Wars doesn't have a fem fatale, mcguffin and a double cross. No shit, it's an adventure story not a film noir.

They problem is you can't relate to the story. Which is kinda exactly the point about why they are trying to make story's that 50% of the global audience can relate to.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jun 22 10:44:03
” They problem is you can't relate to the story. Which is kinda exactly the point about why they are trying to make story's that 50% of the global audience can relate to.”

Yet only 39% of the people who watched it were women. It took men to save the women’s day.

That is worse than Wonder Woman (45%). But let’s be real, 50% of these women are accompanying their boyfriends/husbands, they may say they even liked it, but it wouldn’t have been their first choice.

But even post Nimatzo’s analysis, the numbers are not congruent with your narrative.
Dakyron
Member
Mon Jun 22 10:49:01
The difference here is that Linda Hamilton in Terminator looked the part of a badass woman. She was athletic, she was looked like someone who could load a rifle without having to ask any questions.

Same with Weaver. They looked the part. You believed it. When you see a 5' tall, 90lb woman with little muscle tone and perfect hair beating the shit out of a villainous looking man with her fists, it stretches credibility.

http://cdn...r-2-linda-hamilton-800x451.jpg

and

http://imagevars.gulfnews.com/2019/05/25/SigourneyWeaver-1558773163452_16aee1ee5bd_medium.jpg

vs:

http://usercontent1.hubstatic.com/8735348_f1024.jpg


You see the difference.
Forwyn
Member
Mon Jun 22 10:54:28
"and has the power to leave it."

And always did. Again, that's just because she regained her memories, it's not character development. She was never wrong, she was always the strongest, she was never really threatened.

"They problem is you can't relate to the story."

The problem is that most of the existing audience realizes pretty easily that they took a historically mid-tier bruiser, made her the most powerful hero in the franchise, and intentionally made her flawless, to pander to that audience, the rest of that franchise be damned.
Seb
Member
Mon Jun 22 11:51:24
Nim:

Which part do you think your viewer numbers disprove? That Forwyn clearly doesn't get it, or that the fact he doesn't get it is emblematic how some people can't get into a narrative that doesn't come with them and explains why the film houses are trying to find stories to speak to women?

Because neither of those seem to be to contradicted by your numbers.
Seb
Member
Mon Jun 22 11:52:03
Forwyn:

Wooosh. That's the noise of the point going over your head.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jun 22 12:32:41
The part where forwyn (the men) can’t relate because this is suppose to appeal women (leaving abusive partner, and all the other archetypical feminine tropes you mentioned). None of that is actually what happened. The men made it one of the highest grossing movies of all time and it isn’t a story that particularly appealed to women.
Forwyn
Member
Mon Jun 22 12:57:55
"You just don't get it"

Lol. Yeah, I get it. Every modern pandering piece is brilliant storytelling to you. You don't need standard character development, that doesn't belong in a Mary Sue film where everyone is weaker, less intelligent, less brave, and never a real threat to you.

It's okay. Most Marvel fans, self included, gave it a shot because Marvel. It's not a terrible film, it's just not super compelling and doesn't have high rewatchability. A decent amount of the audience apparently feels the same way:

Captain America: The Winter Soldier
90% Rotten Tomatoes
Captain America: Civil War
91% Rotten Tomatoes
Thor: Ragnarok
93% Rotten Tomatoes
Avengers: Infinity War
85% Rotten Tomatoes
Avengers: Endgame
94% Rotten Tomatoes

Now, rounding out the lower tier:

Avengers: Age of Ultron
75% Rotten Tomatoes
Iron Man 3
79% Rotten Tomatoes
Captain Marvel
78% Rotten Tomatoes
Dakyron
Member
Mon Jun 22 14:39:02
Nimatzo apparently understands how all women think, everywhere.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jun 22 14:59:35
Did you see the number I mentioned? They should help provide the proper context of what I am saying.
Seb
Member
Mon Jun 22 17:24:34
Nim: do keep explaining to me again how your statistics proves anything about Forwyn, who keeps burbling on about how the film is a failure because it d po ed not conform to the hero journey archetypes when the film has a perfectly decent narrative that just happens to be entirely different.

Forwyn:

Masterpiece, no. It's no more a masterpiece than any of the other ones. I'm just saying criticising it for having a different beat and narrative when it's obvious that were going something different is silly. Like I said, you don't get it.

You can of course get it, and not like it. But you aren't arguing that. You are arguing it's technically inept because it isn't conforming to an archetype which it very definitely and deliberately sets out not to be.
Seb
Member
Mon Jun 22 17:27:43
Nim:

"None of that is actually what happened. The men made it one of the highest grossing movies of all time and it isn’t a story that particularly appealed to women."

I see. So your argument is that because it failed to get large numbers of women audience, it clearly must not have been a deliberate and conscious attempt to tell a super hero story that reflected a different narrative journey.

I see. Very compelling. Because failures never happen.

Forwyn
Member
Tue Jun 23 00:31:14
"You are arguing it's technically inept because it isn't conforming to an archetype which it very definitely and deliberately sets out not to be."

No. I'm arguing it's not a compelling storyline because it suffers from Superman syndrome in its quest to present a female protagonist without faults.

Archetype discussion is in response to comparisons to other characters, like Thor.

Though perhaps the disparity in ratings is driven by a desire for that archetype? Compare reception of Thor's arrival in Wakanda after the traditional hero's quest to Carol's human battering ram of Ronan's fleet after out-talking an AI and reclaiming power she had all along.
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 23 02:36:56
Forwyn:

Again, the point you are making is "Captain marvel doesn't have the structure of the hero's quest, therefore it's bad".

It's narratively important that she doesn't earn her power given the underlying framework. She's escaping an an abusive/controlling relationship. If she had to earn her power, that would fundamentally be a story about how you earn permission for your liberty from those controlling you.

They deliverable subvert that message in that last scene with yon rogg.

Do you concede the possibly that the reason you and others receive it differently because the underlying narrative isn't one that resonates with you?

The audience for these movies is generaly expecting a traditional hero arc, and partly why the genre (though the shared universe has somewhat escaped this) tends to retell origin stories again and again.

You can sense Marvel experimenting in the margins to work out how to access all the people who don't traditionally watch these movies. And the are the ones that the traditional hero's journey does not appeal.

You can call it sjw or whatever, but it's just capitalism in action. Every brand seeks to diversify its product line to capture market share.


Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jun 23 04:38:01
Seb
If you are saying that Captain Marvel was a failure as a feminist project, I can’t disagree. If you indeed were not saying that Forwyn didn’t ”get it” because he is a male who doesn’t understand the other 50%, then I will graciously let it slide. Maybe, just maybe forwyns maleness isn’t relevant? Maybe he is an individual whose opinions about movies can’t be reduced to him having testicles?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jun 23 04:42:24
”Do you concede the possibly that the reason you and others receive it differently because the underlying narrative isn't one that resonates with you?”

Who would disagree with such a generic statement. It is almost a truism, you didn’t like the movie, because you didn’t like it.

Do you concede the possibility that it may have not resonated for reasons not nested in being male?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jun 23 04:46:56
Seb
How is statistics (generalizations) relevant to your generalizing of men and women? I let you figure this one out.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jun 23 04:49:09
I mean forwyn already said he liked the movie, but it was not as great as others. But unless Forwyn praises the movie as the great feminist project (it obviously isn’t) he doesn’t get it. This is quite the paradox.
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 23 06:07:31
Nim:

I'm saying that

a. The film didn't appeal to him. He says do.
b. His critique of the film is that the typical hero's journey that is the core of the film is unsatisfying.
c. It is transparently obvious the film very deliberately isn't a hero's journey narrative. Instead they are trying something else in an attempt to speak to the kinds of narratives that might resonate more with women.
d. Doesn't the fact that Forwyn completely missed the point of the movie because the structure of the narrative was so unfamiliar to him (and as a result found the whole thing unappealing) totally validate the basic premise that, as a business making super hero movies, there might be narrative structures that could better appeal to the female audience and maybe allow you to increase your sales?


Hope that's clearer.
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 23 06:08:51
Nim:

"How is statistics (generalizations) relevant to your generalizing of men and women? I let you figure this one out."

I had never realised Forwyn was in a gestalt entity comprising all men.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jun 23 06:27:08
Seb
No. Forwyn ”missed” whatever trascendental truth it is that you saw, thinking it might resonate with women, when infact Forwyn has aproximated what ”women” (do not) want i.e Not Captain Marvel.

The point here is that you bor Hollywood understand what resonates with women.

You were the one who contrasted his taste with the 50 other %. Your framing does not make sense outside a smug ”oh you didn’t get it because it was a feminine trope and now you understand why they try to do stories that appeal to women*”

*now he ”gets” how it feels for women who have to suffer through male oriented narratives.
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 23 06:27:47
Nim:

"But unless Forwyn praises the movie as the great feminist project (it obviously isn’t) he doesn’t get it. This is quite the paradox."

Um, no, he specifically critiqued it for its poor implementation of a narrative structure it is explicitly and obviously not following. That's why I say he didn't get it. You can be a man and get it either by analysis of because the story resonates with you.

Not liking it and not getting it are two different things. You can like it, but think it's flawed because it doesn't fit the pattern you expected (Forwyn). You could also hate it precisely because it's clearly an analogy for a female experience* and that's like, appropriation of superheros and girls need to stay out of the club house. I'm sure there are fair few of those out there on 4chan.


Is it a great feminist project? Not really sure. I thought they pulled it off quite well. If put it in the upper half of the marvel movies, but so far Thor Ragnarok and Iron Man are the ones that stick out for me. It's more interesting as a case study in market entry and product design.

Like the Last Jedi, I probably like it because it's interesting in that you can pull it to bits and see how it works and how as a coherent thing it works. Of course last jedi is much more interesting. Discordant jazz that comes together only when looked at from the right angle.

Commercially I think they'd have done a lot better if they'd beaten DC to it. Wonder woman got lots of women out to see it because "Yay, female super hero" but then delivered a very traditional story. The obvious premise in the marvel offering was "let's not just cast a female lead, but try to tell a story which resonates more strongly with women. But people who went to see wonder woman who were "new" audience for super hero movies probably came away thinking "actually, in just not into movies about super heros" and then didn't turn up to Captain Marvel.


*being told by everyone you can't do something, before realising you shouldn't listen to them, and succeeding - note this works as an idealised coming of age story for adolescent women in the same way the hero's journey does for men: you go out into the world, learn responsibility, overcome adversity and succeed through don't of hard work)
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 23 06:31:14
Nim:

Now you are just being obtuse.

I've stated my argument very clearly. You often complain that I reformulate your arguments into things you don't mean, at last I have the decency to phrase those reformulations as a question; rather than straight out assertions that start by directly contradicting what you have said and explicitly inserting something different.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jun 23 07:11:17
You were the one who contrasted his views with the other 50%. You framed it that way, not me. Does it make sense that you frame it that way if Forwyn was a female?

This is all reminiscent of the Hannah Gadsby thread we had, but not as stark. There it was someone doing stand up comedy that wasn't comedy (by their own admission), here it is a hero narrative that breaks the pattern.

What is equally true in both circumstances is that the reactions had nothing or very little to do with sex. I am quite sure Forwyn has the capacity to watch and comprehend a narrative and dislike it or aspects of it for reasons unrelated to the his own sex and the sex of the protagonist. You seem convinced otherwise.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jun 23 07:19:00
It is as I said, you change things about peoples beloved franchise and they probably will not like it as much and may even garner the resentment of a bunch of them. Those are not reasons to not change things, I have this issue with some of the people on this board with Star Wars and Star Trek. However when people understandably get disappointed, it isn't because they are "men". It's because they are nerds.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jun 23 07:22:41
I mean have understood what it is you are saying, "the feminine trope, that Forwyn does not get, because he is a male". I am not summarizing your position accurately?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jun 23 07:37:43
"Not liking it and not getting it are two different things."

Indeed, they are. Forwyn says he did not _like_ it (as much) while you are saying he can not _relate_. And it the context you have framed it in, it is because he is a man. You have no walked this back a little, but not really, because "obviously" Forwyn is not one of the men who "got" what you got.

Do you know for a fact that Forwyn has never been in an abusive relationship?
Forwyn
Member
Tue Jun 23 11:04:58
Lol @ this thread

The traditional hero's arc only serves to compare it to its peers. It ranks similarly to other movies that do have a traditional arc, but were not as well-received as others for different reasons.

We've hashed out this storyline thirty times now, I think we both get what the team was shooting for.

Lofty goals for analogizing abusive relationships do not immediately create a compelling narrative. Because of the intent of the authors, as you explicitly laid out, she had her powers all along, only being held back by her dishonest and gaslighting team.

It doesn't make a narrative uncompelling on its own, either. There could still be elements of tension and conflict.

But because subtlety is dead, she's the biggest, the baddest, the villains are wimps, she reclaims her power in all its female glory and promptly stomps.

There was never any question she was going to stomp, it was just a matter of who and when. No one ever held a candle to her. She doesn't have to fight on their terms, WOO!

Again. Superman. But even worse, because Superman at least had that layer of holding back because he's so obviously overpowered against most enemies.
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 23 15:22:41
Nim:

You obviously need to go back and think again.

The fact he doesn't find the story engaging because it doesn't hit the narrative structure he expects does not imply that the reason for this is because hes a man.

However it does show that resonance is clearly important, no?

As I said, obtuse. Or just thick. Can't tell now.

Forwyn was explicit in his criticism, so no need to speculate.

"I mean have understood what it is you are saying, "the feminine trope, that Forwyn does not get, because he is a male". I am not summarizing your position accurately?"

Definitely thick given I've explicitly said I'm not asserting that.

We don't need to speculate why Forwyn didn't find the movie great, he said why. Nor do we need to speculate that he missed the intent of the structure, he said as much.

The simple point in question is why they deviated, intentionally clearly, from the traditional heros journey, and the answer is bleedingly obvious. They are experimenting with a story structure that they hope might resonate more strongly with girls. Because then they can increase the audience for future marvel movies if they can get people sucked into the universe through investment in the characters. That's the whole business model for this franchise.

Stop trying to make this personal Nim.
Seb
Member
Tue Jun 23 15:33:36
Forwyn:


"Again. Superman. But even worse, because Superman at least had that layer of holding back because he's so obviously overpowered against most enemies"

I thought the chip limits her as I recall, its only when age breaks that (with the cheesy montage) that she gets to kerb stomp everyone. I may misremember the details.

Perhaps they ought to have made more with the struggling to accept the kree were the baddies. Still I thought it heavy handed.

Overall it clearly didn't work out commercially the way they hoped, unlike black panther*, though really you won't know uts true success unless you see an audience breakdown shift for the next phase,the movie is on streaming etc so can act as an on ramp indefinitely.


*(which when you think about it is in some ways rather problematic in how it presents wakanda society and politics as tribal, hierarchical and cpolitical leadership resolved by violence rather than negotiation or democracy, even if it makes them more technically advanced, and their idea of improvement for blacks in the rest of the world is to fund community centres and basketball courts - quite a white liberal centrist policy prescription, but you don't want to lose that audience)
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