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Utopia Talk / Politics / Protestors tear down more Confede...wait
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 20 08:17:03
Protesters tear down statues of Union general Ulysses S. Grant, national anthem lyricist Francis Scott Key

http://the...neral-ulysses-s-grant-national

Feel free to try and justify this one, you BLM ballwashers.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 20 08:26:55
Ruggy
Grant's campaign in the south was not exactly kind. Devastating an economy were many black would remain for several generations was not present to newly freed slaves.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 20 08:28:17
Roflmao
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 20 08:28:55
"The third stanza of the Star-Spangled Banner makes disparaging mention of blacks and demonstrates Key's opinion of their seeking freedom at the time"
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 20 08:30:41
Thing is, you may have to come to terms at how ingrained racism is in your country.

I think bringing any statue down put up before 1965 can be justified in one way or another.

You will just have to come to terms with this at some point.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 20 08:36:14
"I think bringing any statue down put up before 1965 can be justified in one way or another."

Yes, I believe this has been my point the entire time. This has never just been about Confederate statues, this is about erasing American history altogether.

And why stop at 1965 bro? People in the 1960s were ardent opponents of marriage equality. Maybe we should memory hole everyone who was alive before 2015 in order to address ingrained systemic homophobia.

This cultural Marxist bullshit is a campaign against this country and needs to be curtailed asap.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 20 08:39:17
We're really overdue for a wholesale purge of the education system. These millenial culture warriors arent radicalizing themselves after all; it's the teachers and curriculums that are making them hate their own country.

Patriotic education seems to work well in other parts of the world in terms of instilling national pride in the youth. Time to bring it here?
Forwyn
Member
Sat Jun 20 08:39:26
"Grant's campaign in the south was not exactly kind."

That falls on Lincoln. Though untrained protesters may have a tough time bringing this one down:

http://www.../images/Lincoln-statue-web.jpg

I'll foot the bill on a couple pickaxes if they want to give it a go.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 20 09:10:35
Ruggy
Its hardly about erasing history. We always revise it in retrospect. Removing statues is about getting rid of commemorations of people and events that the present no longer judges worthy of celebration.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 20 09:11:40
"that a radicalized minority no longer judges worthy of celebration."

Ftfy
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 20 09:12:34
Or are you claiming that the mobs are operating with a democratic mandate? Lmao
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 20 09:16:20
Ruggy
Were the mobs acting with a democratic mandate when they dumped tea into a harbour?

We will know in retrospect. Will this or that city repair or replace a defaced statue, or will they use that public space for something else?
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 20 09:17:33
You seem pretty conformist for a nation founded on protest.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Jun 20 09:18:24
-The comparison to the Boston Tea party is retarded, as usual.
-You can hardly expect the group that says that a century-old niche use of the word for parent's sibling necessitates an immediate re-branding to critically and moderately re-analyze historical figures.
Wrath of Orion
Member
Sat Jun 20 09:19:48
I don't follow the statue threads. Is anyone here defending protestors tearing down (not getting the local govt. to do it, but actually doing it themselves) statues?
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 20 09:20:12
Yes, I get that you're all for the "pander to those that yell loudest" mentality.

Im not even going to get into the fact that America is, in fact, one of the greatest countries in human history and its achievements should be celebrated. These radicals are waging a war against the idea of this country and need to be stopped. Period.
TJ
Member
Sat Jun 20 09:36:03
jergul:

"I think bringing any statue down put up before 1965 can be justified in one way or another."

There is nothing in this world that can't be justified one way or another. Justification isn't always a valid perception. What is going on will have little to do with improving the lives of our American Black communities that desperately need a different source of help than they've been getting from the past 60 years at the least.

You should read a few books from earnest and authentic black scholars on the subject. I trust they know far more about the subject then you or I.

Good intentions doesn't always mean good results. Bitterness, hate and guilt won't improve the situation at any reasonable pace as history has demonstrated.

The content of character in both white and black need vast improvement. If those things mentioned are relinquished the nature will never change. Everyone needs to feel pride and worth in a fully proper and functioning society.
TJ
Member
Sat Jun 20 09:45:56
than* and aren't*

I should read my own posts before submitting.
Wrath of Orion
Member
Sat Jun 20 09:47:31
I don't read them once you do submit, so don't worry about it.
TJ
Member
Sat Jun 20 09:50:47
It isn't a requirement for anyone to read them. I'm perfectly satisfied either way.
Wrath of Orion
Member
Sat Jun 20 09:51:37
I was hoping you'd get the joke. Ah well.
TJ
Member
Sat Jun 20 09:52:48
Ditto :)
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 20 10:15:42
TJ
I don't really see statues as a big deal. Large crowds can wreak a lot more havoc than getting ringing sounds out of mass produced kitch. Its as good a way as any. Up to and including dumping tea into the boston harbour.

The statues will be fixed, or the public grounds put to a different use. Depends on the political climate.

It seems everyone agrees that something is broken at any rate.
TJ
Member
Sat Jun 20 10:57:12
Destroying the statues will do little to fix the problem, it more than likely not perpetuate existing feelings and perceptions ignoring what is actually necessary.

This isn't the first episode of statue destruction. The historical destruction doesn't address the heart of the problem. It increases the feelings I spoke of in my original post. It is unfortunate that I can't require you to read books from black scholars who have studied the situation their entire lives.

Good intentions from all sides are fowling the fruit.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 20 11:33:02
TJ
Its not destruction of history. It merely is the removal of commemorative, often mass produced, kitch.

Monuments of historical import should be curated in an institution for such things.

Defacing, or removing statues from their sockets is not a big deal compared to other ways crowds can blow off steam.

The heart of the problem is poverty that in turn is linked to your unfortunate desire to have wealth and income trickle upwards.

All improvements start with a living wage.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 20 11:43:13
"All improvements start with a living wage."

I'm sure the protestors (middle-class college students who own smartphones, laptops, and cars, have easy access to food, water, and shelter, and likely have parents who own real estate and retirement portfolios) are struggling mightily to find subsidence-level employment, sure.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 20 11:45:55
Oh, and things like smartphones are possible thanks to the dynamic economy that we have curated since the 1980s. Thanks Ron and Maggie!
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 20 11:50:56
Ruggy
You should be thanking Keynes. He was the one that formulated the concept of State responsibility for bailing out the markets every time it fails.

1997, 2001, 2008, 2014, 2020

Yay.
TJ
Member
Sat Jun 20 12:00:37
jergul:

I'm not going to continue this exchange with you. You've convinced me that you won't do anything that might change your viewpoint. I'm not asking you to believe me when I suggest reading books from individuals who have lived the black life.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 20 12:14:30
TJ
I have read lots of stuff by people "who have lived the black life". Being well read and all that.

I have also read many academic papers on the causes and effects of inequality.

Perhaps you might want to peruse the classics like MalcomX or MLKjr? Their insights have not faded with time.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 20 12:15:38
by Malcom and MLK*
TJ
Member
Sat Jun 20 17:00:54
Yes, X was killed when I was 16 and MLKJ was killed when I was 20. Both preached unity and hope. 55 and 52 years past. The conditions haven't changed. I"m not in denial of poverty, racism or its history.

It doesn't change my suggestion. I'm all about changing the course peacefully.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 20 17:16:02
The premise for meaningful change is a living wage.

Fucking around with Ayn Rand or cultures of excellence only make sense against that backdrop.

TJ
Member
Sun Jun 21 12:31:18
"Both preached unity and hope."

They opposed each other. I wanted to see if you commented on their opposing views of unity and hope. They wanted to uplift the black communities(no doubt) and very much disliked racism. You didn't, which surprised me. I do have a suspicion why you didn't though.

I'm going to poke the bear in you with the following link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bt88SbZWmY
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 22 04:23:32
Perhaps because you stated you had disengaged and I felt little need to correct your views on Black leaders.

I cannot possibly correct all the errors you make anyway TJ.

I am not checking the link.
Habebe
Member
Mon Jun 22 08:34:24
"Up to and including dumping tea into the boston harbour."

Well, you didn't expect them to dump the Rum did you? They still drank that.

TJ
Member
Mon Jun 22 08:59:09
It is true, I'm fallible. After all I am human. I suppose some are nearer the perfect mark than others and that is true. When you know it all who needs links. I guess well educated American African men and women don't even know more than you about what is going on in their country and race. Lets stick to 55 plus years in the past. Nothing has changed, right?

You got me, should those men, women and I bow? At least I had one simple thing correct and that is that you are convinced of all your positions, of which, I agree with several. Thanks for the lesson in humility.
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 22 09:53:32
TJ
Sarcasm and condescension suit you.

The premise for a meritocracy and a culture of excellence is a level playing field.

You have to stop being racist fucks, allow people a living wage (though regulation and taxation), then start to fuck around with more advanced ideas on how to promote winner cultures.
Dakyron
Member
Mon Jun 22 10:29:38
Do they realize that Grant was a Union general? I'm being serious, these are not America's best and brightest.

So they realize Grant signed the 15th amendment? Of all the people to go after, he seems a curious choice, even for SF.
TJ
Member
Mon Jun 22 10:52:54
TJ
Sarcasm and condescension suit you.

Glad you realize it isn't a specific art that you control alone. It isn't my character, but there are times one needs to step out of their box and reflect.

I get it jergul. You live under a different system. You love it and that is understandable. Everyone thinks they know better. That idea has no boundaries.

Nim posted 5 or 6 of the names below in another thread. I've added a few.

Dr. Carol Swain
Colman Hughes
Bob Woodson
Thomas Sowell
Wilfred Reilly
Shelby Steel
John McWhorter
Glenn Loury
Jason Riley
Jamil Jivani
Rafael A. Mangual

There are many more. You might gain some additional insight if you do a little research. Would you respond to the above individuals as you have me? Oh, you can't, because why? The answer isn't because I disengaged and reengaged. I can't imagine you would, but what the hell, I make a lot of mistakes.

Not once have I denied the history of racism, poverty and the attempts to eradicate, as well as the tremendous damage it has caused. It is long overdue for a different approach.

By the way, people can change their mind. I decided to reengage because of the seriousness of the issue knowing that neither of us have the power to change it. If that is true, who can? Were the names I've listed on a level playing field? Only the future can be changed, maybe they know better, not me.
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