Utopia Talk / Politics / the hero england needs

sam adams Member	Tue Jun 23 13:02:25 http://mobile.twitter.com/MetroUK/status/1275375819041488904 "I’d like to take this time to apologise… to absolutely f***ing nobody!" Burnley fan who arranged ‘White Lives Matter’ banner refuses to apologise
sam adams Member	Tue Jun 23 13:04:04 Note burnley was a location where muslim men were allowed to rape and enslave white girls with the tacit approval of the local woke sebs.
Habebe Member	Tue Jun 23 13:29:23 Reminds me of that time they asked if Trump wanted to apologize to anyone. " uhmmmm no" looking directly on the camera. People often think im joking when I day my favorite characteristic about Trump is that he is an unapologetic asshole....im not kidding.
Rugian Member	Tue Jun 23 13:50:57 He's so going to jail. Cant be making those comments in today's UK.
Seb Member	Tue Jun 23 15:11:33 Sam: It was the police that did nothing and according to the report it was for the decidedly non-PC reason that "they were little slappers and they clearly consented " even though they were under age. More a class issue. When a nice middle class girl got groomed,the parents forced the police to intervene. Much is made of the social workers being afraid of racism charges, but actually it was the main reason they cited was a lack of formal powers and intervention from local politicians who were of the same ethnicity as the groomers and had business connections. Never let facts get in the way of a good story though.
sam adams Member	Tue Jun 23 15:53:26 The entire world was aware of your grooming gangs and you tried to avoid doing anything about it because it made the migrants look bad and you look wrong.
Seb Member	Tue Jun 23 16:03:04 Really, show me evidence that the world was aware before the uk press broke the story? All the reports are clear why the police dis nothing.
sam adams Member	Tue Jun 23 17:08:07 14 All the reports except... http://www...ex-abuse-of-children-hgrhc358v January 18 2020, 12.00am GMT, The Times A senior police officer admitted that his force ignored the sexual abuse of girls by Pakistani grooming gangs for decades because it was afraid of increasing “racial tensions”, a watchdog has ruled. After a five-year investigation, the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) upheld a complaint that the Rotherham officer told a missing child’s distraught father that the town “would erupt” if it was known that Asian men were routinely having sex with under-age white girls.
sam adams Member	Tue Jun 23 17:08:36 Lol why are you always completely wrong seb?
Pillz Member	Tue Jun 23 18:10:22 I'm thinking some sort of brain rotting illness. I'd say syphilis but we all know he's not allowed to be sexually active.
Renzo Marquez Member	Tue Jun 23 18:21:17 He doesn't want to look at his wife's son as a potential future rapist.
Seb Member	Tue Jun 23 19:20:55 SAm: Always go to the primary source. Note the complaint it about what one officer is aledged to have told the father of the victim, which itself is a breach of conduct. This doesn't necessarily mean that is reflective of the actual reasons the police did not intervene. The report hasn't been published yet, the Times article is based on a leak, and if you notice what is in quotes, and what is not in quotes (i.e. editorial). As I said, published reports have all pointed out much more inaction in police forces due to the perception it wasn't really a crime if the girls "wanted it". Lets loop back and see what this one says when it is published.
Seb Member	Tue Jun 23 19:21:27 So typical of Sam to hunt the first thing he can find to confirm what the wants to believe, without checking.
Seb Member	Tue Jun 23 19:27:51 http://www...ugh-protect-girls-abuse-asian/ See for example here, where I have added emphasis. "he watchdog said it was "very clear that you were sexually exploited by Asian men" and upheld a complaint that police "took insufficient action to prevent you from harm", ***The Times said***. A chief inspector, ***who the paper said*** the IOPC had been unable to identify, ***is alleged*** to have said the force was aware abuse had been taking place for some 30 years, adding: "With it being Asians, we can't afford for this to be coming out." So, no, you can't really count this until the report is published. Times article could be slanted, partial, or simply wrong. The report in question was part of the team at the Times that broke the story, and has continually said it is about race, even though the formal report have generally not supported that as the primary issue. So, there is ego there, and a desire to vindicate themselves. Critical analysis old boy. Use your noggin.
sam adams Member	Tue Jun 23 23:34:43 Did you really think i wouldnt find another source? There are plenty out there. This took all of 30 seconds. For example: "And the perpetrators were all from an ethnic minority which the authorities recognised had itself been a victim of prejudice and racism." From this BBC article on why your nation failed. http://www...uk-england-manchester-51093159 Are you really so desperately caught up in woke whining that you cant see even its most obvious mistakes? Even your left wing mouthpiece BBC admits you failed in part because of your fear of punishing minority criminals.
Seb Member	Wed Jun 24 01:24:11 "So what went wrong? As the Mayor of Greater Manchester Andy Burnham put it, there was an institutional mindset in which young, vulnerable girls were not seen as the victims but as the problem." Read your sources. I'll find the primary source later.
sam adams Member	Wed Jun 24 11:32:05 Yes seb, they mention both. Im sure in 30 years of failing to act there are a great many reasons for such failure. The general incompetence and laziness of government bureaucrats and the declining competence of the UK overall is likely one of them. Viewing lower class women as unworthy of the effort could be part of it. But your woke cultures fear of racism is also part of it.
Seb Member	Wed Jun 24 13:29:11 Sam Adams: I refer you back to my earlier statement. "It was the police that did nothing and according to the report it was for the decidedly non-PC reason that "they were little slappers and they clearly consented " even though they were under age. More a class issue. When a nice middle class girl got groomed,the parents forced the police to intervene.  Much is made of the social workers being afraid of racism charges, but actually it was the main reason they cited was a lack of formal powers and intervention from local politicians who were of the same ethnicity as the groomers and had business connections" If you read the reports: 1. Police view of girls as the problem 2. Social workers hand wringing about racism,but only superficially because, 3. Local authorities threatened them with that as part of a campaign to protect the owners of the taxi firm that the gang worked in. The BBC article is thin, note the mayor quoted isn't explicit over who did what (Authorities). But I've read the actual report you haven't.
sam adams Member	Wed Jun 24 13:56:13 So you would admit that some sources do place some of the blame on fear of racism?
sam adams Member	Wed Jun 24 13:58:35 Also the latest in UK anti-white racism is here: http://mob...Ngo/status/1275779599520022528 I am sure your woke mob will be quick to cancel her over her obviously racist views right?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Jun 24 14:49:48 It is prevelent enough and documented to the degree that the UK has its’ own section on this wiki page for sexual abuse by groups. It is quite a long list, the longst on the page. Though one should consider the bias in data. http://en....l_abuses_perpetrated_by_groups
Seb Member	Wed Jun 24 18:21:11 Sam: "So you would admit that some sources do place some of the blame on fear of racism?" If you read very carefully, I think you will see that I've covered this already. Social workers were alleged to have worried about racism. However, it is worth noting that the social workers have no powers to prevent the girls going off with the guys, and while they did report it to the police, the police didn't give a shit for entirely different reasons. And in addition several of the reports pointed out how "you are being racist" was being used by local politicians with business interest. This is entirely different form "Police did nothing because they thought it would be racist", which is the crap you and Rugian et al keep coming up with.
Seb Member	Wed Jun 24 18:26:04 Nim: A lot of those cases are whites or other groups. The structural problem is the police not giving a shit about CSA until very recently. If the child isn't complaining (as is often the case with grooming and when using drink, drugs and money to control a child) then the police used to shrug and say it isn't really a crime, even though it clearly is. You will recall the fact that everybody looked away on Jimmy Saville too, until after he died.
Seb Member	Wed Jun 24 18:29:15 Sam: "White lives don't matter as white lives" is a roundabout way of saying all lives matter, but the black lives are the ones that are being treated like they don't matter, because they are black. The point about the statement "black lives matter" is that it is the blacks that are being casually killed in America with impunity. I don't really see how this is racist.
Rugian Member	Wed Jun 24 18:44:55 I'm not sure why I'm getting name dropped in a thread I've had next to nothing to do with, but seeing as how Seb is going on some bullshit on how anti-white racism isn't actually racism... "Number of people shot to death by the police in the United States from 2017 to 2020, by race 2019 White: 370 Black: 235 2020 White: 172 Black: 88" And since the next thing he's going to say is that black people are being killed on a disproportionate basis...well, yeah. They also make up a disproportionate share of violent crimes, and a disproportionate share of the population of high-crime neighborhoods. It's not race that's at play here in terms of who police are killing, it's simply who they're forced to deal with the most. Of course, Seb will never support All Lives Matter, even though police shootings really are a problem that affect all races (primarily whites, in absolute terms), and ideally the road to police reform would involve a race-neutral campaign to place curbs on police powers. Because at the end of the day, Seb is the true racist here, caring only about black men being killed, and not giving two shits about the multitude of whites being gunned down.
Rugian Member	Wed Jun 24 18:47:20 Oh, and lol @ comparing random Muslim rapists with Jimmy fucking Saville. You want to talk in the language of privilege, well I think I see a few differences between one of the most famous entertainers of his time and some towelheads roaming around in what used to be an English city.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 02:39:29 Seb "The point about the statement "black lives matter" is that it is the blacks that are being casually killed in America with impunity." What are you basing this view on?
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 05:35:01 Not a god damn thing. Hes just parroting a far leftist conspiracy theory that somehow made it into mainstream discourse.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 05:52:12 Yes, the conspiracy theory of Jim Crow and brutal history of slavery somehow made it into mainstream discourse. Be more reasonable.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 06:02:13 You mean two things which are distant history at this point? You be more reasonable.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 07:37:55 To say that something is, a vestigial legacy of a past that very much was not a conspiracy theory, is different than, you know a conspiracy theory that "somehow" made it into the discourse. And how distant is the 60's, really? Both my parents were born Before the 60's. That is literally a little more than half a person ago.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 07:44:58 So you think Jim Crow has any relevance to today's policing standards? How badly to Swedish police treat the thralls, while we're on the subject?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 07:54:16 I am saying Jim Crow has social relevance to what is going on today. To call it a conspiracy theory and act confused over how it made it into the discourse is disingenuous. Swedish police is the most trusted government institute in polls, fairly well I would say. Sigh, you may never understand this, but sometimes it matters how you say things and what words you use. And that it's really manly to care about other peoples feelings, I know I know, you were spanked to think otherwise, but it is what it is.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 07:55:38 And I'm saying it doesn't. Particularly not in Minneapolis, for reasons that should be quite obvious.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 08:00:00 So recent history does not have social relevance. Ok you have decided to go full retard. I accept that some progress can only be made with the progression of funerals.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 08:04:27 None of anythingnyouve said in the last several posts has anything to do with Seb asserting that black people are being murdered en mass with impunity in the US. You've completely lost the plot here.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 25 08:04:29 Rugian: Why did nobody act on Jimmy Saville (who was never that famous or rich, not an Epstein figure)? Because he had a few friends, and ultimately few people cared if he raped a few poor kids, because they obviously liked him anyway, and he didn't, you know, violently pin then down. They wanted to shag a celebrity, the dirty little tarts. Not really a crime, just a bit wrong, a late for their parents, not the police, oh, they are orphans? Well, not our job. Same issues here.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 25 08:06:31 Nim: The fact that very few officers that kill people are charged, and fewer still convicted, even when there is clear evidence, and an explicit legal doctrine that facilitates such. I'm not going to get into an argument about facts on this anymore than proving you the world is round.
Forwyn Member	Thu Jun 25 08:11:26 "The point about the statement "black lives matter" is that it is the blacks that are being casually killed in America with impunity." 1. Everyone is being killed with impunity, although the stats are still low. Daniel Shaver was not black. The perp walked. The house fire analogy meme is just as poor here as it is on Boomer-tier Facebook; black society is not any more "on fire" than anyone else. We watched the same man being murdered. 2. "the blacks" fucking lol
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 08:13:52 Forwyn Who gives a shit about Daniel Shaver? Hes not a person of color so Seb couldnt care less about him.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 08:24:23 Rugian Your autism is severe. I already questioned Sebs assertion, and then your "Conspiracy theory" assertion. Obviously this conversation is way above someone who thinks recent history isn't relevant to understanding the present.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 08:29:31 Seb "I'm not going to get into an argument about facts on this anymore than proving you the world is round." God wills it!
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 08:33:43 What is this shit? Either you think his assertion has merit, or you dont. You cant question his statement and then turn around and attack me for doing the same thing.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 08:40:50 Rugian This shit, is a major brain malfunction on your part. Neither of your assertions have merit, you are both being religious retards. It is like, if I disagree with a Muslim I am not agreeing with the Christian.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 08:47:31 You're the moron who's completely contradicting himself right now. We can debate the lasting legacy of slavery and Jim Crow until we're both blur in the face. Of course the America that exists today would be different had they not occurred. That's different from making baseless claims about how black people (and only black people, by implication) are being murdered en masse by racist police officers. That's downright conspiracy level shit, and I said as much. Hell, you were questioning it yourself before you decided it would be more fun to pick a random fight with me. Stop doing drugs and sober the fuck up already.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 08:47:32 There is no amount of reason to be had with people who say: "recent history has no relevance for the present" and "you are like a flat earther for asking what I base my views on" The two sides of the same retardation.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 08:54:26 You fucking moron. I was saying that false claims made about A PRESENT DAY SITUATION were false. The historic context has ZERO relevance here. That'd be like if I said "9/11 truthers are full of shit" and you came back and criticized me for not taking into account past covert CIA operations. I'm not questioning the validity of those past operations, I'm saying THIS claim about 9/11 is baseless CT nuttery. Get a fucking grip on yourself already.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 08:59:17 Rugian "We can debate the lasting legacy of slavery and Jim Crow until we're both blur in the face. Of course the America that exists today would be different had they not occurred." ^conspiracy theories^ "That's different from making baseless claims about how black people (and only black people, by implication) are being murdered en masse by racist police officers." What was that guys name, who asked seb on what he based this on? Then some other guy came and said that it was just conspiracy theories. This is like talking with patients in a mental institute.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 09:01:21 Seb:Holy shit, America has just dropped nuclear bombs on Paris! Nim: I highly doubt that, especially as I can see Paris from my window and it looks fine. What's your basis for that claim? Me: lol at this retard going on about how America has just nuked Paris. What an absolutely stupid thing to day. Drug-addled Swede: Look stupid, America did Hiroshima and Nagasaki, so it's completely fair game to argue that you guys just nuked Paris as well. Me:...
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 09:07:52 Rugian I understand you are autistic, but hear me out. Jim Crow does not have to still be in effect for people to believe that they (still) are. That isn't a conspiracy theory, that is a testament to the failure of your country to both politically and socially resolve a matter that you and I both agree physically/legally has been resolved. If you think phantom pains of a very real and recent injustice is like 9/11 truthers fabricating things from thin air, then god help you and your country.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 09:11:44 Rugian Yea you should not try to satirically summarize the thread, it takes a full brain to do that. Rugian: *RETARD NOISE* Drugaddled swede: You sound like a retard. Rugian: I am. Drugaddled swede: Ok then.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 09:14:05 It. Is. Not. A. Factual. Statement. I dont care about Jim Crow, or slavery, or how humans killed off the Neanderthals. All have shaped our present day society to various degrees. None justify Seb or the far left peddling such misinformation. I'm not sure how much more simple I can make this, even your drug-addled brain should be able to process it.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 09:15:49 Oh wow, you are hopeless. I would recommend bowing out now, least your embarrass yourself further. This thread is unrecoverable for you.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 09:36:50 Jim. Crow. Was. A. Fact. That it was fairly recent is a fact, that people still believe the effects are lingering to various degrees is a fact. Pain lingers, that is a fact. Facts Rugian, facts. That you do not care, only serves to make all your moronic arguments redundant. It's like discussing abortion with a pro-choice person and going through all the details of fetal development and ethics and biology for an hour, just to hear them say "I think abortion should be legal until the day before birth". Then why the fuck were you arguing that fertilized eggs are not human? Oh that's right, you haven't actually thought through any of the shit you are saying. Now I don't care about hearing from you what seb said and in which way it was incorrect. I asked him and he told me I was a flat earther. His error does not justify yours.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 09:41:27 Rugian "this thread is unrecoverable for you" If you had spend half the time thinking, that you do celebrating how great you are doing, who knows, anything is possible.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 25 11:15:13 Forwyn: "1. Everyone" Yaaawn.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 25 11:18:47 Nim: The fact I feel no need to justify what is a clearly observed and easily demonstrated phenomenon because I find it tedious is not religion. Write to a physicst explaining how you think conservation of energy is wrong, they will not respond. This is not because it is religious, nor is it because it is necessarily pointless. It is because it is not sufficiently controversial to merit them proving it to you. The evidence exist. If you want to make the case that actually, there isn't a problem with police killing blacks without having to account for it - go ahead.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 11:24:47 Seb peddling fake news as usual. No surprise. All lives matter - not just black ones. Police reforms need to be race-neutral in their approach.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 11:55:44 Seb And you took offense when I told you "people do not behave like atoms" and here you are for the second time in this thread comparing complex human societies and interactions with observations on gravity and energy. Nice. I don't _believe_ that there is a specific problem with black people getting *killed* by police, but I don't think it is obvious nor trivially easy to provide evidence one way or another (because I am familiar with the subject in particular and social science in general). Hence the cringe when I read the increasingly confident assertions you make. Such assertions can _only_ be made in almost complete ignorance. Ultimately, that which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 25 12:48:29 "I'm not going to get into an argument about facts" Lol seb actuallysaid that!
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 25 12:51:07 On a per violent crime basis, black people in the US are killed by police 3 times LESS than whites. No wonder seb desperately wants to throw out the evidence... it doesnt support his narrative.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 25 12:59:47 Nimatzo: I'm not comparing them to gravity etc. in the mechanical certainty. Don't be moronic. Such obvious bad faith is precisely why I've no inclination to engage with you on the subject. The question you pose was disingenuous from the get go. I'm saying its sufficiently well recorded that even though a detailed case could be put together, and it might even be useful to do so (though I doubt it), others have already done so and frankly if you haven't dug into it already it's hardly worth discussing.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 25 13:05:03 Sam: George Floyd wasn't arrested for a violent crime though. The chap shot in his car because the officer decided he was a threat was stopped for a traffic violation. The woman shot in her bed by police busting into her boyfriends house were there for a drug search. None of those were suspected violent crimes, let alone reported as such. Great example of how bias in framing of a problem leads to bogus statistical analysis. If the police were only shooting people when absolutely justified, then per violent crime might be a defensible metric. But the charge against the police is that they are shot when there is no reason and no violent crime.
Forwyn Member	Thu Jun 25 13:07:20 "1. Everyone" Yaaawn." Leave to Seb to ignore the majority of police killings. What a colossal faggot.
Forwyn Member	Thu Jun 25 13:08:46 Like I even agree with you on the general concept of police brutality here, I've been saying it much longer than you. But of course, you chose the faggiest approach possible.
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 25 13:14:00 "George Floyd wasn't arrested for a violent crime though." Congrats seb, you have correctly identified 1 out 1000s of police killings as unjust. Keep in mind. 8000 black people are murdered by other black people per year in the US.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 13:15:01 I really dont understand how the non-libertarians here seem to be so totally ignorant of the positions of people like Forwyn. Theyve consistently been calling for a de-militarization of the police for years. Did the Sebs of this board just completely ignore every single one of those posts? Curbs on police powers need to be implemented, and these will disproportionately benefit African American suspects. But the Sebs of the world act like the state of policing is fine with the sole exception of how police treat black people. This is just ridiculous and such thinking should be rejected on its face.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 13:25:09 It depends though, on how many black and white people the police come into contact with. Consider the little experiment. 10 white cops comes into contact with 100 people 80 white and 20 black. They kill 5 black and 5 white. Now it's 80 blacks and 20 whites and still 5 dead of each. That gives grounds for wildly different conclusions, just the raw data and based on demographics. How many people do cops come into contact with and nothing happens? How many do they come into contact with and someone is arrested? How many people do they shoot at and don't kill? How many people do they shoot and kill? etc. There is a lot of confounding and missing data because someone didn't die or that the police just didn't come into contact with black people. This is important because over and under policing depending on the section of the criminal code is a real thing.
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 25 14:04:32 Today in england. A young white man who said "white lives matter" was fired from his job, and his wife was fired from her job. An indian professor at Cambridge said "white lives dont matter". She was promoted.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 14:12:25 Seb Bad faith means I am intent on misunderstanding you. Not the case here. The earth is round because of gravity, I am sure you know that, not making the rather simple connection could be bad faith on your part, but it can also be explained by ignorance or getting too emotional. You also compared it to thermodynamics. Which btw you didn't write that, you wrote "conservation of energy". Bad faith on my part for sure. Anyway. There is no difference between the earth being round or thermodynamics or gravity in the context of your comparisons. The point is that they are all trivial _observations_ relative to explaining WHY things happen in complex systems, what incentives and disincentives that are at play and so on. Making these comparisons, is like thinking an inflatable pool in the backyard is the Pacific ocean.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 14:36:14 I thought Sam was just trolling about the wife getting fired. But a quick check on Google.. "(Reuters) - The Burnley fan who took responsibility for the "White Lives Matter Burnley" banner displayed from a plane above the Etihad Stadium has been fired from his job, British media reported on Wednesday. Jake Hepple, 24, who stated on Facebook that he had been involved in the incident which took place at the start of Burnley's Premier League match at Manchester City on Monday, was dismissed by aerospace manufacturer Paradigm Precision. The company said in a statement that it "did not condone or tolerate racism in any form". The banner was a response to the "Black Lives Matter" campaign which has been widely supported by Premier League clubs. The Lancashire Telegraph reported Hepple's girlfriend Megan Rambadt, who worked at Solace Foot Health and Reflexology, was also sacked after she refused to attend racial sensitivity training." http://in....from-job-reports-idINKBN23W0JL Nice of the paper to name them too. Oh and cherry on top of this shit sundae, GoFundMe shut down an account set up to support them. "GoFundMe pulls campaigns supporting man behind White Lives Matter stunt Attempts to raise money for Jake Hepple and Megan Rambadt have been blocked by GoFundMe." This world is fucking insane.
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 25 15:38:26 Yup. White people are by far the most discriminated against 7nder this new left wing woke regime.
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 25 15:44:21 Seems like huge lawsuits would be almost guranteed wins, but this is sebland in bizaro backwards times.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 25 17:52:31 SAm: Congratulations, you've finally understood the complaint is about unjust killings. So why are you producing stats that would obscure that fact? Because you are a shit statistician. You bash numbers together without meaning, context or rationality.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 25 17:54:53 Sam: You can't even quote properly. But we knew that already.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 25 17:57:31 Sam: ""We have concluded our investigation into the conduct of one of our employees in relation to an incident at the Burnley vs Manchester City match, as well as other related matters. We have concluded that there has been a breach of the company's various policies and procedures. The individual no longer works for the company" Given his wife was sacked for social media posts I suspect in his case it was also the same. Abuse of acceptable use policies. UK law strongly protects workers so they would need to find something more substantial the plane stunt, given he's an engineer.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 25 18:01:51 Nim: "Bad faith means I am intent on misunderstanding you. Not the case here." Mo, it means your question was not genuine. You think it is not the case: you are not asking for information. Cut the bullshit Nim. "The earth is round because of gravity, I am sure you know that, not making the rather simple connection could be bad faith on your part, but it can also be explained by ignorance or getting too emotional." See, all this prattling waffle because you deliberately misunderstood an analogy. "You also compared it to thermodynamics. Which btw you didn't write that, you wrote "conservation of energy"." Related concept and not relevant. You start on with "oh my god, you pointed out that people will not bother to engage with people disputing very well known things because if those people wanted to, they have plenty of reference material they can address themselves. You are saying people are like atoms." I mean, come on Nim. You aren't that stupid. You are just being obtuse.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 25 18:05:25 "According to Sky News sports correspondent Martha Kelner, his girlfriend has also had her employment terminated in relation to posts she made on social media." It's really simple guys. Someone who decided to pay a plane to tow a banner with the explicit intent of pissing off black lives matter probably do a bunch of other stupid shit, and probably on company time. They draw attention to themselves, and then get investigated.
Seb Member	Thu Jun 25 18:06:01 It's simple guys, read the source.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 19:33:00 Seb "Mo, it means your question was not genuine. You think it is not the case: you are not asking for information. Cut the bullshit Nim." "Intentionally misunderstanding" would be "not genuine", a related concept. Which seems to be what you are doing right now at every turn. Obtuse you said? "what are you basing this on?" would be "asking for information". None has been provided, besides repeated assertions of how trivial and obvious it is. I mean one of those times you could have just linked to this trivial and obvious source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamics ^Response to "what are you basing your views on (thermodynamics)?" But ok, I won't ask you to explain anything, I don't want to get in the way of all the thought provoking conversations you are having with sam adams about mean and median.
sam adams Member	Fri Jun 26 00:28:41 "with the explicit intent of pissing off black lives matter" Or maybe with the intent of fighting against the strong anti-white racism being produced by you and the other far left weenies? "So why are you producing stats that would obscure that fact?" 8000 africans are killed by other africans per year. Police unjustifiably kill how many? In the last 10 years, i can think of 3. So... instead of focusing on the 80,000, seb not only focusses on the 3, but does so in a way that will increase the 80,000. Only seb and hood are bad enough at math to be on the wrong side of the logic by more than 4 orders of magnitude. 17
sam adams Member	Fri Jun 26 00:33:01 Even if every african killed by police (250 or so per year) was unjustified, you would still be off by a factor of 30. Do better at math and choose your priorities better seb.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 26 04:32:01 Nim: Would be, but I don't for a second believe you are genuinely unaware of the phenomenonology, it's sufficiently well publicised that I don't feel the need to explain it in any case. Christ on a bike, why are you still going on about thermodynamics. Nothing I've said is "based" on the understanding of any physics. I simply used an analogy of why people won't necessarily engage on disputing large bodies of established evidence that are easily available in the public domain. Odds are the individual is a crank, and there's no particular reason for the person being interrogated to spoon feed them. I could have used literally anything. Replace whatever I said with people wanging on about how vaccines cause autism. 9 out of 10 doctors will not even bother responding.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 26 04:33:03 "8000 africans are killed by other africans per year." Another irrelevant stat. Unless you are trying to prove that African lives are worthless so it's ok for US police forces to kill them.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 26 04:34:23 That you can only think of three Sam, simply adds another piece of evidence to the very large pile that you are not very capable of thought.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 26 04:35:49 "you would still be off by a factor of 30." If every terrorist attack in the West killed ten times as many people, it wouldn't have the death toll that traffic accidents do. So we should not worry about terrorism until we deal with road safety. This is such a dumb argument.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jun 26 05:33:44 Seb "why are you still going on about thermodynamics." Because of this. "I simply used an analogy of why people won't necessarily engage on disputing large bodies of established evidence that are easily available in the public domain." These banal comparison and meaningless outburst of "oh but it is obvious, only a flat earther would ask for evidence" can only be made in near total ignorance, by someone who has never listened to any of the black intellectuals I listed - Someone who does not understand the limits of his domain specific knowledge. You dunning-krugered yourself pretty hard. Like swimming in an inflatable pool and thinking, this is like swimming in the Pacific. That is the gap between what you say is "obvious" and what I know to be true: It's not obvious at all. There is a lot of grey stuff in different shades all over the place. I get ithat everyone has an opinion on social issues, but it does not mean they posess any real knowledge. You are entitled to your opinions, but getting your panties in a bunch when someone asks WHY you believe something, does not reflect well on the kind of rationale that went into it.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jun 26 05:40:07 "Odds are the individual is a crank" The odds are higher that you as with every other controversial topic, did not reason your way in, but likely talked into it by preachy people appealing to your empathy and fears, like all the other religions.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 26 07:31:23 Nim: If you are still going on about thermodynamics as though my argument was rooted in thermodynamics, it's missing the wood for the trees. Please do not follow up with a debate about lumber jack techniques and forestry practice. As to whether you think it is reasonable or not for me to refuse to invest the time in presenting the case that African Americans face police discrimination, I'm not bothered. The issue is covered extensively in the public domain, and whenever we have had these conversations before, e.g. around discrimination on women in the workplace and tech industry, you've dismissed statistical data on flimsy grounds, documented cases as anecdotal. In this case you admit that statistics available are not going to resolve the issue due to complicated covariances etc. (Intersectionality, which of course, like Schroedinger's Cat, both exists and does not*). Evidently you consider the case unproven, and I doubt it could be proven to your satisfaction with the time I have available, and as it so well evidenced elsewhere, why would I bother? "The odds are higher that you as with every other controversial topic, did not reason your way in," *Sigh*, no. In my experience your approach to reasoning is narrow, overly focused on detailed statistics, and with unreasonably high burdens of proof / requirements of certainty for well documented mechanics and illogical/hypocritical choice of null hypotheses deriving from fringe bits of evolutionary psychology that are far less well documented or evidenced. When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.** *This is a metaphor not a statement that it is a quantum phenomenon, I thought important to clarify this. **This is a metaphor also, not a statement equating structural racism with carpentry. I thought it necessary to clarify this.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jun 26 08:16:33 Seb Not getting a metaphore and telling someone their metaphore is born of ignorance, are not the same thing, no matter how hard you pretend. "Obvious" is not an argument. "The issue is covered extensively in the public domain" You keep saying, you keep responding, you keep writting and spending time. Yet none of that time has been spent on anything material. "you've dismissed statistical data on flimsy grounds" Easy to fix, stop posting flimsy studies and claim they establish causality. If the github study is your standard for "open season on the blacks", then I reiterate what I told you back then, burn your PhD and petition to have King's College razed to the ground. They failed to teach you the limits of your extremely narrow education. >>unreasonably high burdens of proof<< I think slandering entire groups, businesses and occupations requires a high burden of proof. Much higher than the flimsy stuff you have posted. Unlike you, I think these matters seriously. There are no consequences if a labrat at CERN gets something wrong for the rest of society (unless they create a black hole), but the things you are claiming have far reaching and dire consquences, they are much more important to get right. >>documented cases as anecdotal<< Anecdotes can and are documented, it doesn't mean they apply in general. I had hoped you were intelligent enough to see the grave mistake you did with the github study, where you "found" your causal link is some fraction (indistinguishable from random errors) of the data once it had been diluted to low fidelity, that you would understand what p-hacking is. But I was apparently wrong, because here you are basically saying that the "evidence" you have for this new claim is on the same level. Just stick to the deep discussion you are having with sam, you are doing OK there.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 26 09:15:12 Nimatzo: I'm not saying "obvious" is an argument. I'm saying I'm not going to bother to argue the point with you. I don't know how to explain this more clearly. It's also completely incoherent to claim you asked for information on good faith (which is an admission to literal ignorance) and then argue my position is ignorant. Like I said, it's blatantly clear to have a position on this, so cut to the chase and lay it out.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 26 09:18:07 "then I reiterate what I told you back then" Yes, exactly. Presented with clear statistical evidence, you create poor alternative analysis that are methodologically flawed, create unreasonable standards of proof etc. This is *why* I have a PhD and you don't. You can judge my capability when you have an equivalent.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 26 09:20:10 Nim, you can't just say oh, that's "p hacking" without demonstrating that it's actually happened. Don't make me go back and find the thread and do what I have to do with Sam.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 26 09:36:49 "I think slandering entire groups, businesses and occupations requires a high burden of proof" This is what I mean by null hypothesis choice. What you are hiding here is a normative choice of null hypothesis (there isn't systemic racism in police) which, if incorrectly assumed true has a huge cost, far more than "slander" against a "group identity" (while also maintaining such groups identities lack validity). Moreover you are doing so in situations where there are numerous well documented cases demonstrating the phenomenon that would give strong weight to institutional racism being the null hypothesis. Essentially you are in appropriately applying methodological approaches and standards of proof that would apply to, e.g. physical sciences (where documented cases would count as observations anyway) and test of "does exist/doesn't exist" almost always have no direct human consequences and where Occam's razor is based on a well founded principle of minimising complexity. Even in social sciences, this approach works for discerning general phenomenon. But for a real world application, using this approach and burdens of proof to decide whether a given policy problem exists is just beyond stupid, because the primary concern *isn't* to be absolutely certain a particular theory is true, it's to minimise harm and maximise wellbeing. This leads to the kind of moronic null hypothesis choice that weights the impact of the possibility that lots of people are actually being wrongfully killed by police due to assumptions police make about them based on the colour of their skin, but demands high levels of statistical significance because it might hurt cops feelings that their identity as cops would be tarnished if it is accepted that police are institutionally racist. This is a mentality you've clearly picked up from tech types, particularly CS types, that tend to use the tools of physical science without necessarily understanding how and why they are the way they are and when the underlying assumptions don't make sense any more. Yet ironically, you keep asserting I'm the one that is treating people like atoms, while you are the one applying the practices used to study atoms to complex and often ambiguous policy problems, with zero recognition of how your framing has an implicit normative judgement, whether you intend it or not.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 26 09:38:00 Your arguments are deeply flawed, your approach to analysis equally so, and to talk about slander of group identities while also saying they lack a basis is utterly incoherent.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Jun 26 09:49:27 Seb "Moreover you are doing so in situations where there are numerous well documented cases demonstrating the phenomenon that would give strong weight to institutional racism being the null hypothesis." Kindly point me to where I can read about the well doucmented phenomena "black people are being killed by police with impunity". Time to put up or shut up.
sam adams Member	Fri Jun 26 13:12:45 "If every terrorist attack in the West killed ten times as many people, it wouldn't have the death toll that traffic accidents do." I am far more concerned about road safety and take far more road safety actions than i do anti-terrorism precautions. Duh. Furthermore road safety and terrorism are utterly unrelated You, on the other hand, in your infinite retardation, want to increase the tens of thousands of african murders in order to combat the handful of police murders. 20
sam adams Member	Fri Jun 26 13:21:50 "8000 africans are killed by other africans per year." Another irrelevant stat." Seb, who claims he is fighting for black lives, claims 8000 black lives killed per year is irrelevant. But gets his panties in a major bunch over a handful of black lives killed by cops. This sort of inability to comprehend numbers is beyond appallingly stupid. It is concrete evidence that seb does not actually want to help black people, but instead just wants to cry about his politics. 21
Seb Member	Fri Jun 26 13:34:14 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-30339943 Use fucking Google. If even the BBC accepts the fact that most officers don't face charges when killings occur, I really don't know what to say.
Seb Member	Fri Jun 26 13:35:53 Sam: "Seb, who claims he is fighting for black lives, claims 8000 black lives killed per year is irrelevant." Of course it's irrelevant. We are talking about unjustified police killings. And you seem to be saying that somehow, we should not be looking at it. For ... reasons.
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