Utopia Talk - Politics - The fall of western Civilization

Welcome to the Utopia Forums! Register a new account
The current time is Thu Jul 02 15:53:41 2020

Utopia Talk / Politics / The fall of western Civilization

Habebe
Member Thu Jun 25 11:32:59
Family.

It's something you rarely here about from politicians anymore.

But the family unit used to be important. Chiseled away bit by bit.

Its something that supercedes race or creed and even most political affiliation.

Through everything from divorce law to the drug war politics from the left and right have dwindled away this important institution. Leading to everything from mass loneliness to violent crime to poverty.

And really since HW Bush I dont recall any politician taking it serious.

CrownRoyal
Member Thu Jun 25 11:40:57
"Through everything from divorce law to the drug war politics from the left and right have dwindled away this important institution. Leading to everything from mass loneliness to violent crime to poverty. "

What are you, black?

jergul
large member Thu Jun 25 11:45:02
That is not the fall of Western Civilization. That is a conscequence of the rise of Western Civilization.

jergul
large member Thu Jun 25 11:47:23
Every politician has taken family serious since way, way before the mafia tried to reinvent the roman patronage system based on extended and adopted family ties.

It also predates Roman civilization and goes back to when we were rodents dashing between frozen dinosaur corpses "Look, free eggs!"

jergul
large member Thu Jun 25 11:48:49
"Look son, free eggs"*

Habebe
Member Thu Jun 25 12:08:34
What politicians argue on behalf of support of the family?

Cr, Yes, I am black.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 25 12:18:12
Habebe
You are giving way too much credit to the influence politicians and parties have on society and not appreciating that they come from the same societies. They are equally swayed and influenced by that society and the emergent properties that few can predict and almost no one can control.

jergul
large member Thu Jun 25 12:20:08
Thankfully, very few in post modern western civilization. My point was that the idea of supporting families is old as fuck.

Its not a key to Western civilization, it is something Western civilization has systematically tried to render redundant.

Remove SS to enhance the value of family. Every old fucker would starve in the street without a family. That is a very motivational way of strengthening family ties.

See any crappy 3rd world nation today for examples.

But I am sure you will find whining about birthrates if you look around.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 25 12:27:38
"That is a conscequence of the rise of Western Civilization."

That is very well put. Now the questions is when is the paradigm going to shift and what will come next. Imma stay here in my backwater town as we figure it out :)

Habebe
Member Thu Jun 25 12:33:30
Nimatzo, I fully respect the law.of unintended consequences. Not all of the assaults on the family unit were intentional.

jergul
large member Thu Jun 25 12:40:50
The "assaults" are by design habebe. The whole idea is to replace what family provides with other structures.

I keep on leaping back to the HBO series "ROME" to illustrate how absolutely horrible a family centric society is.

Its ultimately a question of freedom. It is impossible to be free if embroiled in the fucked up loyalties, obligations, debts, and punishments that a family based system entails.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 25 12:42:46
Consider also that individualism does not work if you are forced into collective units. It is one of the things immigrants here in Sweden have a hard time understanding, in the ME the family is everything, they got your back, they help you get a job, meet your future wife/husband, get an apartment etc. Swedes, they created government institution for everything, intended or not, it provided unprecedented individual autonomy.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 25 12:43:17
^habebe

jergul
large member Thu Jun 25 12:43:24
Nimi
ty :). Friendships perhaps? As employment diminishes in importance, then to does our direct obligations to society.

Its seriously never been easier to have friends.

jergul
large member Thu Jun 25 12:45:37
re next paradigm as we hunker down in our frozen arctic hellholes and wait.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 25 12:48:58
I like that, to friendships :)

Rugian
Member Thu Jun 25 12:50:13
Loyalty to your family is viewed as a potential conflict which interferes with your loyalty to the state. The statists who dominate public policy understand this, which is why they've been trying to lessen the importance of the family unit.

Also the fact that government-run schools have supplanted parents in terms of being the primary upbeinger of most children hasn't helped.

sam adams
Member Thu Jun 25 12:52:21
Appropriate place for this i think.

Census shows white decline, nonwhite majority among youngest

http://apnews.com/a3600edf620ccf2759080d00f154c069

jergul
large member Thu Jun 25 12:53:30
Ruggy
Feel free to join any criminal organization you like to fully explore what the alternative to western institutions would be like.

They rank loyalty to the extended family they provide quite highly.

It might help you see how fucked up family centric systems are.

Rugian
Member Thu Jun 25 12:53:37
Gonna be interesting to see people defend affirmative action once whites become a minority.

jergul
large member Thu Jun 25 12:57:13
Sammy
It just stands to reason. Those that are least part of society will tend to do things the oldschool way.

Its pretty fucked up. The easiest fix is making sure the girls at least finish college or university.

Rugian
Member Thu Jun 25 12:57:42
Jergul

Your assertion then is that families are synonymous with criminal organizations. Interesting.

Either Norway instills some fucked up values in its young, or you really didnt like your own family growing up.

jergul
large member Thu Jun 25 12:58:41
Ruggy
Interesting? Why? White privilege will be framed as apartheid as soon as there is a white minority of 50% minus 1.

Habebe
Member Thu Jun 25 12:59:02
Nim, I don't think that they are mutually exclusive. You can have strong family ties and still have a great deal of individual autonomy. Admittedly these ideals may at times bump heads, but its often a trade off people are willing to make.

You lose some autonomy when you gain a spouse, but the trade off os generally mutually beneficial and does not entirely abandon the ideals of a frew society.

Jergul, Not a great argument considering how untrusted many of these institutions are currently.

Rugian
Member Thu Jun 25 12:59:34
Rofl. You're correct of course that that will be the narrative, as retarded as it is.

Rugian
Member Thu Jun 25 12:59:45
@jergul

jergul
large member Thu Jun 25 13:00:19
It cannot be anything other than a moblike connection of oppression, coercion, and twisted loyalties if you want it to replace Western Civilization's institutions.

jergul
large member Thu Jun 25 13:05:49
Habebe
We are not talking about every individual's right to form meaningful relationships with others.

People did that in concentration camps for gods sake.

We are talking about how fucked up societies are when family centric systems replace institutions of western civilizations.

It scares me that you do not realize how fucked up a heavy reliance on family ties to survive is.

Habebe
Member Thu Jun 25 13:12:23
Jergul, These institutions have lived side by side. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

You seem to be arguing that the state should replace the family, or am I misunderstanding your argument?

Rugian
Member Thu Jun 25 13:15:59
No, that's exactly what hes arguing Habebe.

jergul
large member Thu Jun 25 13:43:51
Habebe
The State has replaced most functions of family in modern western countries.

We have just kept the fun stuff that family provides: Sex, a lifelong friend (for as long as it lasts), a kid or two, and thanksgiving dinners.

We no longer need family for defence, employment, marriage options, education, or retirement. To name a few things.

Habebe
Member Thu Jun 25 13:49:42
How many members of your family do You habe sex with?

chuck
Member Thu Jun 25 13:54:14
^ forever alone

Wrath of Orion
Member Thu Jun 25 13:56:18
Hi Retard Rod 2.0, I hope you're having a great day!

jergul
large member Thu Jun 25 15:10:39
Habebe
One more than the number of government institutions I have had sex with.

Which is more than you can say as you have been fucked by any number of them.

Habebe
Member Thu Jun 25 15:49:13
I find that hard to believe considering you've nicknamed your your wife "Lenin"

Habebe
Member Thu Jun 25 15:49:57
Your jokes are getting better though.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Jun 25 16:32:12
Habebe
One could always hope, but the thing is every time we change a page in the book, we gain something and we loose something. This has been happening since we gave up being hunter gatherers. Certain wisdoms were lost, certain connections permanently severed.

There are clear down sides to societies that have weak governmental institutions and strong family bonds. This phenomena is studied and there is a correlation between levels of democracy and cousin marriage. The more cousin marriage the lower the level of democracy. The conclusion is best summarized with an old Bedouin saying "I, against my brothers. I and my brothers against my cousins. I and my brothers and my cousins against the world."
Those are concentric circles of loyalty made rigid by a large amount of cousin marriage. Obviously you keep important things like marriage (the formation of a new unit), in the family ;)

In societies like that, that which concerns you concerns the tribe, your honor and your shame is also the tribes. When you marry someone, you are also bringing them into the tribe, so it is a matter from the tribe. This is how things work in much of the third world. So called "honor culture" are centered around the family. They unravels justice, because the only justice you will get is the one that your family can give you. It unravels democracy because there are clear incentives to support your third cousin running for president president over some stranger, even though the stranger has the better ideas. You are actively and if needed violently discouraged to go against the family.

We will never accept anarchy and always try to maintain order, take away the government and some other authority will take its' place.

I think It is preferable to have strong institutions that treat everyone the same and provide the same justice and uphold the same rules for everyone. That does not have to mean that we destroy the family, but the family has to be restrained!

jergul
large member Fri Jun 26 02:16:11
Habebe
How wrong you could be. I call her Rodina (motherland). She calls me Stalin (man of steel) for, to her, obvious reason.

sam adams
Member Fri Jun 26 10:15:46
Sebs people commit another mass stabbing:

http://www...ncident-police-officer-suspect

Habebe
Member Fri Jun 26 11:22:40
Nimatzo, I think its plausible to have a string family unit and still have such institutions. Japan comes mind or even the US in times past.

show deleted posts

Habebe Member	Thu Jun 25 11:32:59 Family. It's something you rarely here about from politicians anymore. But the family unit used to be important. Chiseled away bit by bit. Its something that supercedes race or creed and even most political affiliation. Through everything from divorce law to the drug war politics from the left and right have dwindled away this important institution. Leading to everything from mass loneliness to violent crime to poverty. And really since HW Bush I dont recall any politician taking it serious.
CrownRoyal Member	Thu Jun 25 11:40:57 "Through everything from divorce law to the drug war politics from the left and right have dwindled away this important institution. Leading to everything from mass loneliness to violent crime to poverty. " What are you, black?
jergul large member	Thu Jun 25 11:45:02 That is not the fall of Western Civilization. That is a conscequence of the rise of Western Civilization.
jergul large member	Thu Jun 25 11:47:23 Every politician has taken family serious since way, way before the mafia tried to reinvent the roman patronage system based on extended and adopted family ties. It also predates Roman civilization and goes back to when we were rodents dashing between frozen dinosaur corpses "Look, free eggs!"
jergul large member	Thu Jun 25 11:48:49 "Look son, free eggs"*
Habebe Member	Thu Jun 25 12:08:34 What politicians argue on behalf of support of the family? Cr, Yes, I am black.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 12:18:12 Habebe You are giving way too much credit to the influence politicians and parties have on society and not appreciating that they come from the same societies. They are equally swayed and influenced by that society and the emergent properties that few can predict and almost no one can control.
jergul large member	Thu Jun 25 12:20:08 Thankfully, very few in post modern western civilization. My point was that the idea of supporting families is old as fuck. Its not a key to Western civilization, it is something Western civilization has systematically tried to render redundant. Remove SS to enhance the value of family. Every old fucker would starve in the street without a family. That is a very motivational way of strengthening family ties. See any crappy 3rd world nation today for examples. But I am sure you will find whining about birthrates if you look around.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 12:27:38 "That is a conscequence of the rise of Western Civilization." That is very well put. Now the questions is when is the paradigm going to shift and what will come next. Imma stay here in my backwater town as we figure it out :)
Habebe Member	Thu Jun 25 12:33:30 Nimatzo, I fully respect the law.of unintended consequences. Not all of the assaults on the family unit were intentional.
jergul large member	Thu Jun 25 12:40:50 The "assaults" are by design habebe. The whole idea is to replace what family provides with other structures. I keep on leaping back to the HBO series "ROME" to illustrate how absolutely horrible a family centric society is. Its ultimately a question of freedom. It is impossible to be free if embroiled in the fucked up loyalties, obligations, debts, and punishments that a family based system entails.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 12:42:46 Consider also that individualism does not work if you are forced into collective units. It is one of the things immigrants here in Sweden have a hard time understanding, in the ME the family is everything, they got your back, they help you get a job, meet your future wife/husband, get an apartment etc. Swedes, they created government institution for everything, intended or not, it provided unprecedented individual autonomy.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 12:43:17 ^habebe
jergul large member	Thu Jun 25 12:43:24 Nimi ty :). Friendships perhaps? As employment diminishes in importance, then to does our direct obligations to society. Its seriously never been easier to have friends.
jergul large member	Thu Jun 25 12:45:37 re next paradigm as we hunker down in our frozen arctic hellholes and wait.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 12:48:58 I like that, to friendships :)
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 12:50:13 Loyalty to your family is viewed as a potential conflict which interferes with your loyalty to the state. The statists who dominate public policy understand this, which is why they've been trying to lessen the importance of the family unit. Also the fact that government-run schools have supplanted parents in terms of being the primary upbeinger of most children hasn't helped.
sam adams Member	Thu Jun 25 12:52:21 Appropriate place for this i think. Census shows white decline, nonwhite majority among youngest http://apnews.com/a3600edf620ccf2759080d00f154c069
jergul large member	Thu Jun 25 12:53:30 Ruggy Feel free to join any criminal organization you like to fully explore what the alternative to western institutions would be like. They rank loyalty to the extended family they provide quite highly. It might help you see how fucked up family centric systems are.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 12:53:37 Gonna be interesting to see people defend affirmative action once whites become a minority.
jergul large member	Thu Jun 25 12:57:13 Sammy It just stands to reason. Those that are least part of society will tend to do things the oldschool way. Its pretty fucked up. The easiest fix is making sure the girls at least finish college or university.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 12:57:42 Jergul Your assertion then is that families are synonymous with criminal organizations. Interesting. Either Norway instills some fucked up values in its young, or you really didnt like your own family growing up.
jergul large member	Thu Jun 25 12:58:41 Ruggy Interesting? Why? White privilege will be framed as apartheid as soon as there is a white minority of 50% minus 1.
Habebe Member	Thu Jun 25 12:59:02 Nim, I don't think that they are mutually exclusive. You can have strong family ties and still have a great deal of individual autonomy. Admittedly these ideals may at times bump heads, but its often a trade off people are willing to make. You lose some autonomy when you gain a spouse, but the trade off os generally mutually beneficial and does not entirely abandon the ideals of a frew society. Jergul, Not a great argument considering how untrusted many of these institutions are currently.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 12:59:34 Rofl. You're correct of course that that will be the narrative, as retarded as it is.
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 12:59:45 @jergul
jergul large member	Thu Jun 25 13:00:19 It cannot be anything other than a moblike connection of oppression, coercion, and twisted loyalties if you want it to replace Western Civilization's institutions.
jergul large member	Thu Jun 25 13:05:49 Habebe We are not talking about every individual's right to form meaningful relationships with others. People did that in concentration camps for gods sake. We are talking about how fucked up societies are when family centric systems replace institutions of western civilizations. It scares me that you do not realize how fucked up a heavy reliance on family ties to survive is.
Habebe Member	Thu Jun 25 13:12:23 Jergul, These institutions have lived side by side. It doesn't have to be one or the other. You seem to be arguing that the state should replace the family, or am I misunderstanding your argument?
Rugian Member	Thu Jun 25 13:15:59 No, that's exactly what hes arguing Habebe.
jergul large member	Thu Jun 25 13:43:51 Habebe The State has replaced most functions of family in modern western countries. We have just kept the fun stuff that family provides: Sex, a lifelong friend (for as long as it lasts), a kid or two, and thanksgiving dinners. We no longer need family for defence, employment, marriage options, education, or retirement. To name a few things.
Habebe Member	Thu Jun 25 13:49:42 How many members of your family do You habe sex with?
chuck Member	Thu Jun 25 13:54:14 ^ forever alone
Wrath of Orion Member	Thu Jun 25 13:56:18 Hi Retard Rod 2.0, I hope you're having a great day!
jergul large member	Thu Jun 25 15:10:39 Habebe One more than the number of government institutions I have had sex with. Which is more than you can say as you have been fucked by any number of them.
Habebe Member	Thu Jun 25 15:49:13 I find that hard to believe considering you've nicknamed your your wife "Lenin"
Habebe Member	Thu Jun 25 15:49:57 Your jokes are getting better though.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Jun 25 16:32:12 Habebe One could always hope, but the thing is every time we change a page in the book, we gain something and we loose something. This has been happening since we gave up being hunter gatherers. Certain wisdoms were lost, certain connections permanently severed. There are clear down sides to societies that have weak governmental institutions and strong family bonds. This phenomena is studied and there is a correlation between levels of democracy and cousin marriage. The more cousin marriage the lower the level of democracy. The conclusion is best summarized with an old Bedouin saying "I, against my brothers. I and my brothers against my cousins. I and my brothers and my cousins against the world." Those are concentric circles of loyalty made rigid by a large amount of cousin marriage. Obviously you keep important things like marriage (the formation of a new unit), in the family ;) In societies like that, that which concerns you concerns the tribe, your honor and your shame is also the tribes. When you marry someone, you are also bringing them into the tribe, so it is a matter from the tribe. This is how things work in much of the third world. So called "honor culture" are centered around the family. They unravels justice, because the only justice you will get is the one that your family can give you. It unravels democracy because there are clear incentives to support your third cousin running for president president over some stranger, even though the stranger has the better ideas. You are actively and if needed violently discouraged to go against the family. We will never accept anarchy and always try to maintain order, take away the government and some other authority will take its' place. I think It is preferable to have strong institutions that treat everyone the same and provide the same justice and uphold the same rules for everyone. That does not have to mean that we destroy the family, but the family has to be restrained!
jergul large member	Fri Jun 26 02:16:11 Habebe How wrong you could be. I call her Rodina (motherland). She calls me Stalin (man of steel) for, to her, obvious reason.
sam adams Member	Fri Jun 26 10:15:46 Sebs people commit another mass stabbing: http://www...ncident-police-officer-suspect
Habebe Member	Fri Jun 26 11:22:40 Nimatzo, I think its plausible to have a string family unit and still have such institutions. Japan comes mind or even the US in times past.
	show deleted posts

Your Name:
Your Password:
Your Message: