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Utopia Talk / Politics / The end of N. Korea
Habebe
Member
Sat Jun 27 00:55:01
The only place possibly worse off than Venezuela.

So I think we all can agree Its a failed state. Except mabey Jergul.

This daily doesnt seem keen on ever giving up power or its communist ways.

So any guesses on how this will all end? If only a Pinochet could save them like he did Chile.
Average Ameriacn
Member
Sat Jun 27 01:05:50
Trump will make a deal with them before election day and they will give us all their nukes. Also they will become our best ally against China, we will move our troops from old Europe to new North Korea to force China to buy all our soy beans.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 27 03:28:48
Another country under extreme US sanction. And UN sanction for that matter too.

Why? Because it withdrew from the NPT and is developing domestic missiles and nuclear weapons.

I am sure you can find a place that is crap not under US sanctions, but you would have to look hard.

The main reason is abuse of the US dollar as the global currency. It means the US can lock countries out of global trade.

Though in truth it means your president can. The electoral college choses a despotic monarch every 4 years in most matters dealing with foreign nations.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 27 06:44:14
You know you've gone completely off the deep end when you think North Korea's woes are the fault of the US.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 27 06:45:30
How come trolls like WoO and Sd and WTB never throw any of their million "fucking retard" posts at people like jergul again? He deserves it more than anyone sometimes.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 27 06:46:05
Ruggy
Shrug, you would be NK if cut off from global trade.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 27 06:53:08
Now you might counter with "but what rational reason does NK for insisting on having a deliverable nuclear deterrent?"

Answer: Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq again, Chechnya, Georgia, Libya, Syria, Ukraine.

Several of those listed have grounds to profoundly regret ending their nuclear weapons programmes.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 27 07:09:01
No one who is at all sane supports giving North Korea unrestricted access to the global economy. And no, we would not be like NK as we're not a totalitarian shithole that exists solely to sustain the royal family and its army enforcers.

What is actually wrong with you?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 27 07:31:12
Rugian
There is in principle no reason for the USA to not have the same relationship with NK that it has with Vietnam. Ok, the fact that Vietnam was "allowed" to reunify matters, it resolved the core grievance.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 27 07:41:13
nim

Wrong. Existential threat to a key American ally counts.

Speaking of deterrents, doesn't North Korea already have one? Seoul lives under the permanent threat of being shelled into non-existence if things ever were to escalate.

But to even debate the point is to give your side a legitimacy that it doesn't deserve. North Korea earned the epithet "the Hermit Kingdom" for a reason, and it has little to do with the US. This is easily the most repressive regime on the planet, a totalitarian nightmare where even the appearance of offense against Dear Leader can cause you to be thrown into an internment camp. A country that let its citizens starve by the millions simply to sustain the ruling class. A place so restrictive with its own people that the only North Koreans you're likely to ever see abroad are defectors.

North Korea is literally the example people give of a place where 2 + 2 = 5, if the state demands it. It's a shithole, and I have no time or respect for people who defend it.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 27 08:02:07
Rugian
The fact that the threat has persisted is a problem. Your country was faced with the same problem with a bunch of Arab countries vs Israel.

You can't make a friend out of an enemy without giving them legitimacy and making concessions.

"I have no time or respect for people who defend it."

This "what I am saying is so factually obvious that I won't bother" is becoming the new framework for discussion. It is not a good development. You are being too emotional and hot headed.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 27 08:12:04
Being too emotional and hot-headed about North Korea. rofl

It's amazing how this board still has the capacity to surprise after all these years. It's a given that posters on the far left will consistently defend some of the most garbage regimes on the planet, like Syria, Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, and China. But to them to step and become an advocate for North Korea, well I gotta admit I thought they were at least above that much.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 27 08:18:55
Yes Rugian, the gravity of a situation requires more sober thinking not less. I am not your antagonist. Having mini tantrums every time someone provide another pov to a problem are not fruitful. You are no that smart (no one is, so don't be offended), you have not thought about everything, someone else may have. So telling people they are"defending" and that you "have no respect for them" is not placing what I am saying in the proper context.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 27 08:26:46
Judgement was passed on North Korea long ago. What have they ever done that even remotely suggests that they want to be an honest player on the international stage, or that they want to implement significant liberal reforms on the domestic front?

I am not having a tantrum, I am simply dismissing your stance out of hand.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 27 08:30:47

North Korea: Systematic Repression

Totalitarianism Empowered with Absence of International Pressure



(Seoul) – North Korea’s government, one of the most repressive in the world, maintained its totalitarian rule during 2019 with ongoing brutality and intimidation, Human Rights Watch said today in its World Report 2020.

The North Korean government uses prison camps, torture, forced labor, and threats of execution and arbitrary punishment to maintain fearful obedience among the population, while restricting North Koreans from travel out of the country and communication with the outside world. Eight years into the rule of Kim Jong Un, the third leader in seven decades of hereditary rule begun under his grandfather, Kim Il Sung, North Korea has now suffered under totalitarian rule for almost as long as the existence of the Soviet Union.

“The people of North Korea suffer under constant surveillance and face the daily threat of imprisonment, torture, sexual abuse, and execution – and it’s been this way since 1948,” said John Sifton, Asia advocacy director at Human Rights Watch. “It’s time for the rest of the world to act. Kim Jong Un isn’t going to change his behavior unless concerned countries demand it.”

In the 652-page World Report 2020, its 30th edition, Human Rights Watch reviews human rights practices in nearly 100 countries. In his introductory essay, Executive Director Kenneth Roth says that the Chinese government, which depends on repression to stay in power, is carrying out the most intense attack on the global human rights system in decades. He finds that Beijing’s actions both encourage and gain support from autocratic populists around the globe, while Chinese authorities use their economic clout to deter criticism from other governments. It is urgent to resist this assault, which threatens decades of progress on human rights and our future.

The government tries to prevent North Koreans from leaving without permission by jamming Chinese mobile phone services at the border, targeting for arrest those communicating with people outside the country or trying to leave, and publicizing punishments of people caught escaping. Those caught trying to cross the border, or forcibly returned by China, face interrogation, torture, and imprisonment in forced labor camps.

The North Korean government systematically requires forced, uncompensated labor from most of its population to control its people and sustain its economy. A significant majority of North Koreans must perform unpaid labor, often called “portrayals of loyalty,” at some point in their lives. It also restricts all basic civil and political rights, such as freedom of religion, expression, and association, and discriminates against at-risk groups, like women and individuals and families with low songbun, a hereditary ranking system that arbitrarily classifies North Koreans according to their family’s history and the individual’s supposed fealty to the government, among other factors.

International attention to North Korea’s human rights record grew after a landmark 2014 United Nations Commission of Inquiry (COI) report that documented the government’s widespread crimes against humanity, but attention has waned. Recent summits between North Korean leader Kim Jong Un and the presidents of the United States and South Korea have failed to lead to North Korea’s increased international engagement or cooperation with the UN. At the same time, North Korea has improved its diplomatic relations with several countries, including Russia and Vietnam.

The North Korean government refuses to cooperate with the UN Seoul field office or the UN special rapporteur on the situation of human rights in North Korea, Tomas Ojea Quintana, and denies the findings of the COI.

In March and December, respectively, the UN Human Rights Council and General Assembly adopted without a vote resolutions emphasizing the advancement of accountability mechanisms to ensure eventual prosecution of North Korean officials responsible for crimes against humanity. In December, eight members of the 15-member Security Council indicated support for holding a debate on North Korea’s human rights record, as the council has done in several previous years, even in the face of opposition by China and Russia. The meeting did not occur, however, because of the lack of support by the US government.

http://www...th-korea-systematic-repression

^This is what you're defending. Let's be 100% clear on that front. Your cause, you can own it.
patom
Member
Sat Jun 27 08:50:59
Just what does N. Korea make to sell on the global market that can't be gotten elsewhere?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 27 09:03:12
Rugian
"Judgement was passed on North Korea long ago."

Allaho akbar!
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 27 09:06:56
Rugian
But really what you are doing right now, acting indignant, and more offended about the whole thing that the South Koreans who are far more nuanced and pragmatic. It is the same behavior we see in white BLM supporters who are offended on behalf of black people.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 27 09:14:11
nim

Bad comparison. And meanwhile, how's that whole relationship working out again?

"On 9 June 2020, North Korea began the process of cutting off all of its communication lines with South Korea at 12:00 pm of the same day. This came after Pyongyang had repeatedly warned Seoul regarding matters such as the failure of the South to stop North Korean expatriate activists from sending anti-regime propaganda leaflets across the border. The Korean Central News Agency described it as "the first step of the determination to completely shut down all contact means with South Korea and get rid of unnecessary things".[143] The sister of Kim Jong-un, Kim Yo-jong, as well as the Vice Chair of the Central Committee of the ruling Workers' Party of Korea, Kim Yong-chol, stated that North Korea had begun to treat South Korea as its enemy. Along with this, an inter-Korean liaison office was closed and hotline communications between the two militaries and presidential offices, were severed.[144] A week prior to these actions, Kim Yo-Jong had called North Korean defectors "human scum" and "mongrel dogs". The severing of communication lines substantially diminished the agreements that were made in 2018.[145] On 13 June, Kim Yo-jong, had warned that "...before long, a tragic scene of the useless North-South joint liaison office completely collapsed would be seen." This followed a rapid deterioration in relations between the two Koreas. On 16 June, the North threatened to return troops that had been withdrawn from the border to posts where they had been previously stationed. Later that day, the building in Kaesong, North Korea that had housed liaison talks close to the border with South Korea was blown up by the North Korean government. "

I have seven decades' worth of history to justify my attitude. What do you have, other than some wishy-washy desire to treat North Korea as anything other than the clearly rogue state it is?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 27 09:28:26
Rugian
"What do you have, other than some wishy-washy desire to treat North Korea as anything other than the clearly rogue state it is?"

7 decades of South Korea, being more pragmatic and willing to talk about it than a random guy in Boston. Obviously your opinions as someone without skin in the game can be dismissed out of hand, but I like to talk about stuff and things.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 27 09:30:25
lol @ "only South Korea gets to decide how the world reacts to North Korean fuckery."

I think we're done here.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 27 09:33:09
Also I reject your assertion that South Korean policy has consistently been one of seeking rapprochement, to the extent that "recognizing legitimacy and making concessions" have been the end-goal. That displays a shocking ignorance of history on your part.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 27 09:34:12
lol @ "I have more skin in the game that South Koreans".

You are done here.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 27 09:35:17
I reject your assertion that I have asserted that.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 27 09:35:51
That displays a shocking low level of reading comprehension.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 27 09:36:08
Or comprehension in general.
LazyCommunist
Member
Sat Jun 27 09:44:23
The Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a nuclear super power and world leaders bow before it:
http://sta...Jumbo.jpg?quality=90&auto=webp
Stop being envy and accept reality.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 27 09:58:42
Ruggy
I know it is really, really hard for Americans (Pax Americana) to grasp, but the internal affairs of nation-states are their own.

Just as I see you struggle with the thought that every nation - not only nations you like - have the right to self defence.

In North Korea's case, meaningful self-defence has to be based on strategic deterrence. This is a given due to South Korea's alliance commitments.

Fair enough that UN sanction underpin the embargo. At least fair enough from the moment Saudi Arabia and Israel are placed under punitive sanction for various things.

The arbitrary application of international law is in essence illegitimate.

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Sat Jun 27 10:09:47
"The arbitrary application of international law is in essence illegitimate."

it's the american way!
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 27 10:49:34
Jergul

I reject your agnostic approach to the domestic affairs of states. Some regimes are just pure garbage and need to be treated as such.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 27 10:51:06
North Korea: lol we literally treat 90% of our citizenry as slaves

Jergul: bUt WhAt AbOuT tHe TrEaTy Of WeStPhAlIa
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 27 11:02:39
Ruggy
See: "The arbitrary application of international law is in essence illegitimate".

A global order that equitably enforced international order based on transparent international court rulings with no exceptions or favoritism

Is indeed something that might replace the full integrity of nation-states that is the founding principle of our current order.

Get back to me when you have sanctioned the crap out of Saudi Arabia and Israel for *stuff*

Then we can discuss practicalities around a NWO.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 27 11:06:36
Jergul

Your autistic "everyone needs to be treated the same no matter what" approach is as noble in its principled consistency as it is retarded in terms of real life.

I have always been an opponent of R2P. But that doesnt mean that we should just completely turn a blind eye towards the atrocities being committed by various regimes around the world either. And North Korea is among the worst in that sense.

Never mind the role it plays internationally, which in and of itself justifies any and all measures being taken against it.

And I've spent years here criticizing Saudi Arabia, so good luck making that line of attack stick. I'll not humor your anti-Semitism though.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 27 11:12:02
See: "The arbitrary application of international law is in essence illegitimate".

rofl@anti-semitism.

Israel has opted for a single state solution, so its an issue of universal voting rights more than anything else.

It can divide into seperate countries later if that is what the voters want.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 27 11:13:56
Ruggy: "We may as well get rid of some crime, so lets focus all our police efforts on black people".
Habebe
Member
Sat Jun 27 11:24:06
Jergul, What have US Sanctions on NK done that China can't Counter?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 27 12:36:59
Rugian does not understand that religiously holding on to all principles does not necessarily lead to the desired outcome.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 27 12:47:50
nim

On the contrary, it's you and jergul demonstrating absolutism here. I'm in favor of realpolitik when the benefits outweigh the downsides.

But by any objective measure, North Korea is a cancer upon the Earth and should be contained as much as possible. We have repeatedly tried to engage with them, and every single time it has failed. They don't ever improve, they don't even moderate.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 27 12:49:16
Habebe
Locking NK out of the global trade market.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 27 12:50:17
Rugian
I dismiss your post as a complete fabrication.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 27 12:52:58
Nim

Wrong as usual.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 27 12:57:24
Rug
I disagree.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 27 13:27:13
Incorrect.
Habebe
Member
Sat Jun 27 13:42:32
Jergul, Can you be.more specific? They can trade with China its such a small place that should be enough.

Kimda like How the US has Canada.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 27 13:44:15
Habebe
No company in China can trade with NK without triggering US sanctions against that company.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 27 13:44:57
Its kinda like Canada having to choose between trading with Iceland, or with the US.
chuck
Member
Sat Jun 27 13:55:52
> I am not having a tantrum

...yet you're the only poster who needs to explicitly state this when you post. Fascinating.
Habebe
Member
Sat Jun 27 14:08:23
Jergul, Well, if Canada routinely threatened Nuclear war.

Also the company specific restrictions afaik came intoneffect in late 2017.

Also I didnt realize.that Chima and Russia even have sanctions against NK.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 27 14:56:58
Habebe
Does the US always leave all options on the table and has a first nuclear strike doctrine? Never mind that the US is factually the only country that has ever used nuclear weapons.

Iceland would be NK in the analogy. Canada would be China.

Russia, China and everyone else follow UNSC resolutions.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jun 27 15:07:11
"Never mind that the US is factually the only country that has ever used nuclear weapons. "

And you've just lost any credibility you still had. This isn't 1945 and your attempts to invoke guilt over actions taken WWII show your own biases.
Habebe
Member
Sat Jun 27 15:13:56
Keep in mind that Europe had legalized slavery at the time the US dropped the bombs....different worlds.

Keeping all options.on the tar and regularly threatening war with peacefull neighbors are not the same.

Yes they follow UNSC resolutions. They are also on the UNSC.
Habebe
Member
Sat Jun 27 15:14:48
Also you skipped over those sanctions being like 2 years old.
Habebe
Member
Sat Jun 27 15:31:12
Jergul, This is something you jave done before about sanctions.

You will mention sanctions that are the most extreme. And repeat time and time again the length of these sanctions without acknowledging the severity levels over time.

Like with Venezuela, you took 2 year old sanctions that were the most extreme and also stated thwy had been around since 2006. Which is misleading since those 2006 sanctions only blocked the sale of guns and ammo.

Im not sure if it's intentional misrepresentaition or ignorance of the exact sanctions times and dates.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 27 16:12:34
Ruggy
Are you denying the relevance of the holocaust and Israel's right to ensure that nothing similar ever happens again,

Or are you employing double standards and think whatever horrible genocidal use of weapons of mass production you have done should be forgotten because, you are you?

Anyway, are you not a great fan of a document written 250 years ago and feel it should guide your nation today?

You are comming across as a huge hypocrite.

Habebe
You are using NK *is* a hellhole. I am saying you are sanctioning the crap out of it. It would be much less of a hellhole without US third party sanctions.

That is always my point. Any place struggling that you are gloating over would be struggling less if your country was not fucking the place over with economic sanctions that are pretty much of war level intensity.

Feel free to find a crap place that is not under US sanctions. It should be possible.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 27 16:13:11
mass destruction*
Habebe
Member
Sat Jun 27 16:20:50
Yes. Sanctions will have a negative impact. But that is changimg the bar from ypur previous " you broke it" statements.

NK would have been a shit hole regardless of US involvement of sanctions.

Africa is full of shitholes that afaik don't have sanctions.That means nothing.

All real world examples are not perfect. These nations chose to side with the USSR and receive economic benefits from them and other politically affiliated nations.

Benefits that were not granted to other nations. Did the Soviets send aid to Pinochet?


Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jun 27 16:42:29
I think what Jergul has been saying is that you didn't break it, but you keep it in a broken state.
Habebe
Member
Sat Jun 27 16:53:46
Well. That would actually be different from where he said we broke it.

But let's take that argument and run with it a bit.

Cuba has had probably stronger sanctions than most, and is not as bad bad off as say NK.

Now again. They were for years financially supported by the Soviets.Real.world examples have plenty of things to consider.

Also at what point are these small nations to be held responsible for.not fostering better relations with other nations that could help them.

The whole reason the US Saudi relationship is what it is today was they had oil and we needed it, so we imtemtionally.fostered.good relations.
jergul
large member
Sat Jun 27 18:48:04
Habebe
Consider a broken Ming vase.

It is in four pieces. You stomp on it. It is now in 83 pieces.

Did you break it?

On Cuba. The US does not and has never done 3rd party sanctions. It considers its sanction regime to be unilateral and grants tons of exceptions to allow from remittances from the US and travel from the US.

Its Sunday School sanctions. Thanks in no small part to the pivotal role cuban americans play in chosing presidents in Florida.

I fully agree that smaller nations should devise ways of playing the center off two or more major powers on the sides. Its the only way to be responsible.

Its obvious the world needs at least one other superpower to play off against the other.

You know, so we can be responsible.

Habebe
Member
Sat Jun 27 19:17:06
Cuba has had an embargo on it.

Now it's one of the few communist nations I personally see as less horrible.

The are much better world actors than say NK. Minus that little spat with missiles in the 60s.Much better human rights as well.
jergul
large member
Sun Jun 28 00:47:42
A US embargo with lots of exceptions. Not 3rd party sanctions so you know, Cuba can trade with the rest of the world.

Its a Sunday school sanction regime.
Habebe
Member
Sun Jun 28 08:50:30
Well, we will agree to disagree.

On to the point, how and who deals with the fallout from the eventual collapse of the regime?

The aftermath is probably the biggest hurdle to some other nation just taking out the kims.
jergul
large member
Sun Jun 28 09:05:51
That might be true of the Ukraine (if you take the Ukraine, then you have the Ukraine). It is its own deterrent.

But NK has nukes. So the point is moot.
Habebe
Member
Sun Jun 28 09:14:20
So that will stop it from collapsing as a state/dynasty?
jergul
large member
Sun Jun 28 09:30:56
It will stop foreign states from collapsing it with military force.
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