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Utopia Talk / Politics / George Floyd Arrest Bodycam Footage
Renzo Marquez
Member
Mon Aug 03 16:23:27
http://www...-arrest-George-Floyd-time.html

If Chauvin gets a fair trial (unlikely to happen), he might actually be acquitted.
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Aug 04 01:02:39
Not much new info.
We already knew from the first videos that Floyd was acting drugged out (and toxicology later confirmed meth and fentanyl in his system) and that he resisted arrest getting out of his vehicle and then resisted again when he was being put in the squad car. Floyd's excited delirium was also a reasonable claim here, given that he was already hyperventilating even before being put on the ground. New information was that Floyd himself asked to be put on the ground.

The problem for Chauvin is discrete elements, like, once Floyd was down, was he still resisting? When he became unconscious, was excited delirium a reasonable excuse to keep pressure on his neck?

Chauvin gets to claim that standard procedure is to wait for the ambulance to arrive and have EMTs administer ketamine to calm a meth addict, but Chauvin doesn't get to make that claim for why he didn't allow a hyperventilating person a free airway once Floyd was unconscious. So he's still on the line for depraved indifference — a solid four minutes of Floyd unconscious but no medical concern from Chauvin.
The Children
Member
Tue Aug 04 01:25:22
yall lookin at. i saw a man gettin let 2 his death.
he wasnt actin crazy. he was scared.
Dukhat
Member
Tue Aug 04 02:32:29
Renzo the racist wannabe lawyer thinks that another racist will be acquitted of murder.

What a surprise.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Tue Aug 04 04:33:29
Cherub Cow
Member Tue Aug 04 01:02:39
"but Chauvin doesn't get to make that claim for why he didn't allow a hyperventilating person a free airway once Floyd was unconscious."

According to the coroner, Floyd did not die from asphyxiation. The last 2-3 minutes Chauvin is on him is a problem. For the first 5+ minutes, Floyd is making enough noise that it's clear his airway is not obstructed. Floyd is also complaining about not being able to breathe well before he goes to the ground. His coronary event may have occurred at this point. He also tells police he has coronavirus (autopsy confirmed this is one of the few true things he said). This arguably makes the failure to render medical aid reasonable. One of the other officers checked Floyd's pulse after he went silent and doesn't appear to say anything afterwards. It will be interesting to see what that officer says. Chauvin is also likely to argue that he was not putting his full weight on Floyd's neck. It's impossible to tell from the video. Definitely possible he's pushing down more with his right knee than his left.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Tue Aug 04 04:35:48
Cuckhat, I never predicted an acquittal for Chauvin.
Cherub Cow
Member
Tue Aug 04 05:47:59
[Renzo]: "Chauvin is also likely to argue that he was not putting his full weight on Floyd's neck. It's impossible to tell from the video."

I don't think he has a good argument there; he was near vertical above Floyd with very little flexing in his shoes, whereas being in a position to transfer weight requires more of a crouch and is visible via shoe strain. Chauvin might be able to sell it, but it still puts him on an unconscious Floyd's neck for four minutes.

..
[Renzo]: "He also tells police he has coronavirus (autopsy confirmed this is one of the few true things he said). This arguably makes the failure to render medical aid reasonable."

They didn't really need to render aid, they just needed to put him in the recovery position (on his side, opening up his chest; something covered in basic first aid, which officers must stay current on), which could have been done without additional infection risk. Still, the defense could probably parade a series of coronavirus outcomes in front of a jury and force the mental association.

..
[Renzo]: "Floyd is also complaining about not being able to breathe well before he goes to the ground. His coronary event may have occurred at this point."

That may actually be a good argument. It's an extension of Floyd's panicked meth trip and could show that Floyd was already writing his own cause of death.

But I think it all returns to Chauvin being on top of an unconscious subject for four minutes. The officers on scene can explain away pretty much everything except that. All the prosecution has to do is show a silent video of Chauvin on top of an unconscious Floyd with a clock running and maybe a zoom in of Chauvin's and Floyd's respective expressions. If a jury looks too closely at the upgraded charges (likely), then second degree murder will fail, but that second-degree manslaughter charge seems favorable.

They really shouldn't have upgraded charges, though. Fuck. They went from a sure thing to a hopeful coin toss.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Tue Aug 04 06:38:17
Yeah, I generally agree. It will be interesting to see how Chauvin attempts to defend the ~3 minutes after Floyd stops talking.
The Children
Member
Tue Aug 04 07:10:43
man was sayin "dunt shoot me, dunt shoot me"

even when he was still in da car.

y'all have whitey goggles on!

actin crazy? he was cooperate in almost every way!

what about da bystanders who were forced 2 stand against da wall and give ID.

why. what they do. they just walked by.

bullcrap.

Renzo Marquez
Member
Tue Aug 04 07:15:13
The Children
Member Tue Aug 04 07:10:43
"actin crazy? he was cooperate in almost every way!"

Not when he refused to get in the police car. Not when he got out of the police care after they put him in.

"what about da bystanders who were forced 2 stand against da wall and give ID.

why. what they do. they just walked by."

The ones that were in the car with Floyd?
Rugian
Member
Tue Aug 04 08:01:01
The real takeaway from all of this?

Just follow police instructions. You can always sue them afterwards, but right there in the moment they 100% have the upper hand on you.
patom
Member
Tue Aug 04 08:02:45
When they had him on the ground and cuffed there is no excuse for not picking him up and putting him in the cruiser. Four men? Well supposed men. They very well could have shackled his feet so he couldn't kick out at them. They could have tazed him. Lot's of options that weren't taken.

Chauvin has cost this nation billions. Stupid sob should spend the rest of his days in prison.
Nekran
Member
Tue Aug 04 08:20:46
"The real takeaway from all of this?

Just follow police instructions. You can always sue them afterwards, but right there in the moment they 100% have the upper hand on you."

What utter BS. The police have rules to follow, just like anyone else. I'm not complying with a cop that isn't following the rules. Of course, I don't live in a country where death-by-cop is a common cause of death, so that may influence my attitude.

Don't you regularly argue that people should be allowed to have all sorts of guns so they can stand up to government oppression though?

Sort of weird to then argue that you should always follow the oppressors' instructions first...
Renzo Marquez
Member
Tue Aug 04 08:22:55
patom, there's a good chance he would have died if they tazed him. And then you'd be complaining about that. And the cities would still have been burned.
patom
Member
Tue Aug 04 09:37:31
I'm not complaining. I wasn't the one who had his life taken because the cop was an asshat.
I don't care how you cut it. The Cops on the scene fucked the pooch. Why? Who knows. There were lots of alternatives to what could have been.
Rugian
Member
Tue Aug 04 10:44:28
Nekran

What's the upside to resisting a cop's attempt to physically restrain you?

At best, he wins and you potentially face additional charges. At worst, he starts losing and decides to escalate with more deadly force.

The proper course is to comply and sue later.
Dakyron
Member
Tue Aug 04 10:48:52
Ever had a cop pull you over for speeding in a construction zone, only to have the power-tripping body armor wearing whackjob walk slowly up to your car, hand on his gun, yelling "KEEP YOUR HANDS ON THE WHEEL"?

That is not the time to roll the window down and start arguing that you did not see the new speed limit sign.
Nekran
Member
Tue Aug 04 10:49:48
"What's the upside to resisting a cop's attempt to physically restrain you?"

Standing up for rights?

I'm a very mild mannered person and I will cooperate with the cops as long as they are acting within their rights.

If they go out of bounds though, I won't go along with that. If they think they have to get physical because of that, I would try to defend myself.

But once again, I live in a country where cops have to be able to justify every shot they fire. It's a very different situation... I suppose in the US, I would be more of a coward too.
Rugian
Member
Tue Aug 04 10:53:02
Wow, you're so badass. I bet you beat up cops all the time with that mindset.
Rugian
Member
Tue Aug 04 11:00:53
What sort of fucked up society do you have over there where you're taught to start a fight with a cop that's in the middle of arresting you? That's literally insane.

And whether the cop needs to justify it after the fact or not isnt a distinction that really matters to you if you end up getting shot.

This is common sense we're talking about here.
Nekran
Member
Tue Aug 04 11:26:25
"What's the upside to resisting a cop's attempt to physically restrain you?"

I love how you don't read what I write at all. This comment could not be less related to what I wrote :')

"What sort of fucked up society do you have over there where you're taught to start a fight with a cop that's in the middle of arresting you? That's literally insane."

One you've made up, obviously. You keep believing in it though!
Rugian
Member
Tue Aug 04 11:42:22
Well I dont know what you're talking about then, because the subject at hand is about a guy who was resisting being restrained and ended up dying for it. If you're discussing a different situation, then you need to elaborate.
Nekran
Member
Tue Aug 04 12:12:26
"I'm a very mild mannered person and I will cooperate with the cops as long as they are acting within their rights."

"Wow, you're so badass. I bet you beat up cops all the time with that mindset."

You don't see the disconnect?
kargen
Member
Tue Aug 04 14:40:40
"Of course, I don't live in a country where death-by-cop is a common cause of death, so that may influence my attitude."

Neither do I nor any other American.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Tue Aug 04 17:07:12
Nekran
Member Tue Aug 04 10:49:48
"But once again, I live in a country where cops have to be able to justify every shot they fire. It's a very different situation..."

Wow. It's easy for us Americans to underestimate US cultural dominance. But then we see Europoors buying into our media's ridiculous narratives.
Dakyron
Member
Tue Aug 04 17:15:05
There were ~1000 deaths by cop last year in the US. There were ~16K murders. There were 47K suicides. 67K drug overdoses. 1.25M die in car accidents.
1,500 people were killed by farm animals.

You are more likely to be killed by farm animals than by a cop in the US.
Nekran
Member
Tue Aug 04 23:24:43
"There were ~1000 deaths by cop last year in the US."

That is 1 death for every 300k people. That would equate to 30-40 deaths here in Belgium.

We would've been rioting for a long time already, if it happened that frequently.

The difference with those other causes of death is that these happen by the people we collectively pay to protect us... the fact that you think that is a low occurrence is actually fucking creepy.

Looking at the stats, it's almost 30 times as likely to happen in the US than it is here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers_by_country

But hey... if you're happy being surrounded by the likes of Iraq, Nigeria and the DRC in that list, I guess that is fine for you guys.
sam adams
Member
Wed Aug 05 00:25:06
"1.25M die in car accidents."

This is not correct.

'The difference with those other causes of death is that these happen by the people we collectively pay to protect us...'

Right. We pay them to shoot bad guys for us. Why is this a problem?
Dakyron
Member
Wed Aug 05 10:18:29
Yep, that was worldwide, not US.

"That is 1 death for every 300k people. That would equate to 30-40 deaths here in Belgium.

We would've been rioting for a long time already, if it happened that frequently.

The difference with those other causes of death is that these happen by the people we collectively pay to protect us... the fact that you think that is a low occurrence is actually fucking creepy.

Looking at the stats, it's almost 30 times as likely to happen in the US than it is here: "

Belgium's population is almost 90% European in origin, with about 80% being Belgian. Compare to the United States where those numbers drop to 61% white European.

Also...

http://www...re/Belgium/United-States/Crime

You have twice as much total crimes per capita than the United States and almost 1/3 more police officers.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Aug 05 10:34:03
*Reported crime.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Aug 05 10:37:44
Look it even says this in your own link.

Total crimes: Note: Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Aug 05 10:39:24
So in Belgium people are more likely to report crime and they have more police per capita. In the USA a significant portion of the population have a very low trust in government authority.
Dakyron
Member
Wed Aug 05 11:02:39
"So in Belgium people are more likely to report crime and they have more police per capita. In the USA a significant portion of the population have a very low trust in government authority. "

Source?
Dakyron
Member
Wed Aug 05 11:07:37
I'm looking at this, and it seems similar in how the two nations view their police.

http://www...y-in-confidence-in-the-police/

"a Pew Research Center survey found that 78% of Americans overall – but a far smaller share of black Americans (56%) – said they had at least a fair amount of confidence in police officers to act in the best interests of the public"

https://www.sascv.org/ijcjs/pdfs/solakogluijcjs2016vol11issue1.pdf

On average, Belgian adults reported a mean of 6.01 points on the scale of trust in the police which ranged from 1 to 10
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Aug 05 11:09:16
Your own link made that general precaution.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Aug 05 11:13:10
It is a cluster fuck to compare national data, if you can find crime victimization surveys, that would actually be good supplementary data.
Rugian
Member
Wed Aug 05 11:19:04
Okay, so now we're arguing that a 0.0003% chance of getting killed by a cop is now an inexcusably high figure that's worth starting riots over.

BS. We've seen this same "one death is too many" argument being used by the gun grabbers for years, and it's as ridiculous as ever. Statistical irrelevanices are just that, irrelevant.
Nekran
Member
Wed Aug 05 14:40:45
"Okay, so now we're arguing that a 0.0003% chance of getting killed by a cop is now an inexcusably high figure that's worth starting riots over.

BS. We've seen this same "one death is too many" argument being used by the gun grabbers for years, and it's as ridiculous as ever. Statistical irrelevanices are just that, irrelevant."

I seem to recall you reacting very differently to terrorism. Which is far more irrelevant still, when it comes to death rate.

But yes, I hold the police to a very high standard. They are supposed to serve and protect. If they abuse the powers we as a society give them to do that job, we won't stand for that. Belgium would absolutely riot over stats like the US has. And imo justly so. I've never demonstrated in my life up to this point, but police brutality going out of control (because we obviously do have cases of it from time to time, which luckily get proper attention and are far from normalized here) would definitely get me on the streets.

Even when violence is required, which it obviously sometimes is, lethal force should always be the very last resort. Once that idea flies out the window and any killing is considered justified from the moment the suspect makes any sort of move that can vageuely be interpreted to be threatening, that is a one way street to a proper fucked up society.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Wed Aug 05 15:08:29
This is pretty long but worth a read:

https://medium.com/@gavrilodavid/why-derek-chauvin-may-get-off-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911

TLDR: Floyd was exhibiting signs of "excited delirium" and accepted police practices for suspects with that condition include prone restraint until the ambulance comes.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Wed Aug 05 15:20:48
without the s:

http://med...-his-murder-charge-2e2ad8d0911
Dakyron
Member
Wed Aug 05 15:44:07
(Chauvin should probably sue the NYT for defamation)
From the article:

A note on the analysis made by the New York Times

The NYT published a “play by play” analysis on YouTube, analyzing how George Floyd died. They omit important information in their analysis.

The NYT shows Floyd being cuffed behind his back, but then cut the footage so that you do not see the struggle that occurred while he was being cuffed.

The NYT mentions complaints made against the officers. However, the NYT does not mention that only one of these complaints was found to have merit against Chauvin, when he asked a woman who was speeding 10 MPH over the limit to step out of her car. The NYT omits the average number of complaints against officers, which is approximately one every 3 years. The NYT also omits that Chauvin obtained two medals of valor, which was ironically reported by the NYT elsewhere.

The NYT says “we don’t know why” they pulled Floyd out of the car. This is misleading, as we know they were unable to keep him detained in the squad car.

The NYT omitted that Floyd was able to lift up his head and neck.

The NYT omitted — completely — that the officers believed he was suffering from ExDS. (This is not a joke. The NYT omitted the linchpin of the case.)

The NYT ignores his history of drug use, his two heart conditions, as well as the fentanyl found in his system.
Rugian
Member
Wed Aug 05 16:14:36
Wait...is this going to end up being another iteration of "This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black?"

Lmao. The media is such a cancer on this country.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Wed Aug 05 16:25:03
The corporate press really is the enemy of the people.
smart dude
Member
Thu Aug 06 01:59:57
Obese cuck loser orphan nerds like Rugian, on the other hand, are a real...guiding light? LOL.
Cherub Cow
Member
Fri Aug 07 07:12:16
[The Children]: "actin crazy? he was cooperate in almost every way!"

lulz. Do people really not know what resisting looks like? Or what being high on meth looks like? I've seen videos of rioters kicking police from the ground, and people on the scene in front of this make the same comments: "[She's *not* resisting!]" The U.S. education system failed these people.

..
[patom]: "When they had him on the ground and cuffed there is no excuse for not picking him up and putting him in the cruiser. Four men? Well supposed men. They very well could have shackled his feet so he couldn't kick out at them. They could have tazed him. Lot's of options that weren't taken. [/] Chauvin has cost this nation billions. Stupid sob should spend the rest of his days in prison."

They did have reason for not putting him in the cruiser: he was having a drug-fueled meltdown which can mean it's dangerous to transport him without medical attention. And yeah, like Renzo pointed out, tasing him would likely have killed him. You can see clearly from the video that Floyd's heart was beating overtime and he was hyperventilating. That's not someone you want to tase — that's a good way to induce cardiac arrest.

I do agree that they had other options, however. They were on the right track having called an ambulance and taking Floyd's own advice to put him on the ground instead of inside the vehicle, but once there, they should have put him in the recovery position to calm him down and to open his airway.

I agree that Chauvin should be jailed, but I agree with the Minneapolis sentencing guidelines for second-degree manslaughter (the charge more likely to stick, though still itself in jeopardy): about 4–10 years. And Chauvin didn't cost the U.S. that money: its misguided people did. They were the ones who took to the streets seeking property damage and theft. Trevor Noah's "broken social compact" argument is horseshit; if they break laws and cost cities money, they have to bear the responsibility. Protest, sure, but crime is still crime.

..
[Renzo Marquez]: "TLDR: Floyd was exhibiting signs of "excited delirium" and accepted police practices for suspects with that condition include prone restraint until the ambulance comes."

Hey! I already said that ;p
[Me]: "Floyd's excited delirium was also a reasonable claim here, given that he was already hyperventilating even before being put on the ground ... Chauvin gets to claim that standard procedure is to wait for the ambulance to arrive and have EMTs administer ketamine to calm a meth addict"
..but good to see an article running with case facts.

..
This Ben Shapiro clip popped up about the body cam footage:
[The Daily Wire; August 4th, 2020]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7CwHIC9dTY
Shapiro didn't even know that there were other people in the car with Floyd. Like, his job is to be aware of the details in stories like this before passing judgment, but he didn't even know that? Floyd died May 25th, and those videos were available as early as May 27th (I posted these in the first thread; http://www.utopiaforums.com/boardthread?id=politics&thread=85759&showdeleted=true ):
http://www.liveleak.com/view?t=CLnYQ_1590636570
http://www.liveleak.com/view?t=sgIE2_1590595777

I agree with Shapiro's other points though: it's an overcharge that will cost the prosecutors in court and produce more riots when people find out that Chauvin will only serve *maybe* 5 years in jail (with good behavior). And if jury selection goes poorly for prosecutors, a reasonable jury won't find enough to make the manslaughter charges stick either. Peeps better hope prosecutors manage to slip a tainted jury through selection.
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Aug 24 03:18:11
John Oliver must have read my above post ;)

His show last week hyper-focused on juries. He tried to make the claim that jury selection is systemically racist.

"Juries"
[LastWeekTonight; August 17th, 2020]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1f2iawp0y5Y

Oliver makes no attempt to substantiate his claim on the systemic level with comparisons to education and poverty levels in his sample areas. For instance, if a disproportionate number of black people in an area were not high school graduates, they might be excused simply because they would not be able to make informed decisions — that would be a practical matter, not racism. Oliver also makes no distinction between whether it was prosecutors, defenders, or both who were excusing black jurors in his sample cases. If it turned out that both were doing it, his "systemic" claim would fail because he'd have to address the question, "Why would a black defendant's lawyer want to dismiss black jurors?"

Coincidental timing? A tentative trial date has been set for Chauvin (March 2021) and the next hearing takes place in September. Jury selection would follow in the coming months, so Oliver would want to lay the issue down in time to have Chauvin's trial manipulated by his team's biased research (his viewers would make calls for reforms based on his narrative).

This also gives his viewers an out: popular opinion among lawyers has been that "[Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison's] “charge‐​stacking” in response to public pressure is an abuse of prosecutorial discretion" (Vinoo Varghese, Law.com; June 17, 2020, http://www.law.com/newyorklawjournal/2020/06/17/to-ensure-justice-for-george-floyd-derek-chauvin-must-get-a-fair-trial/ ). This trial is expected to fail simply because of the misguided charge upgrades. It puts all the pressure on the jury, and the jury will have to ignore that the charges do not quite fit. So, if Oliver can get a biased jury, that can be a conviction for the manslaughter charge; and, if/when the trial fails to convict, his viewers can blame a racist jury selection system. Riots in the street either way — either from the light sentence or the acquittal.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Fri Sep 11 14:35:33
http://twitter.com/esmemurphy/status/1304454805113516034

esme murphy
@esmemurphy
Defense Attorney Plunkett also wants records of a May 2019 incident in which Plunkett alleges #GeorgeFloyd took drugs during an encounter with police, Defense of all 4 former officers claims Floyd swallowed fentanyl during the fatal encounter

http://twitter.com/esmemurphy/status/1304455571127627781

esme murphy
@esmemurphy
Judge Cahill says “a pill was visible “ in #GeorgeFloyd mouth in Thomas Lane body camera footage
Renzo Marquez
Member
Sat Sep 12 08:41:19
Speculation that Floyd may have been an informant now. Could be a fishing expedition.

http://twitter.com/tracybeanz/status/1304522105296498690

Tracy Beanz
@tracybeanz
Well, this is interesting. From the documents in the Floyd case- the defense is asking for any and all files pertaining to Floyd's cooperation as an informant for the Minneapolis police or FBI...
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