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Utopia Talk / Politics / "Grope me, dont rape me"
Rugian
Member
Thu Aug 13 12:58:42
*triggering intensifies*

----

A top cop in Chicago who recently announced his retirement had just been suspended for almost a month — for comparing police reforms to “rape,” according to a report.

Chief Fred Waller, a 34-year veteran who is the force’s third-in-command, sparked a slew of complaints for the words he used in a meeting to attack plans to pull officers from street patrols, the Chicago Sun-Times said.

“Grope me, don’t rape me,” Waller reportedly told the meeting at police HQ of losing his key officers.

His comments left the room in stunned silence, and one attendee told him, “Don’t ever say that again,” according to the paper, which cited an internal affairs report. Another said she was concerned for anyone in the room who may have “had traumatic histories with that kind of abuse.”

Waller said he apologized to all those he offended at the 18-person November meeting, but internal affairs recommended he be suspended for 14 days, the Sun-Times said, noting how rare it was for someone of his seniority to be punished that way.

The force’s top brass then decided to double the punishment and suspend him for 28 days, the report said. No reason was given for the dramatic increase in his punishment in March.

The long suspension was an “excuse” to force him out, the president of the Fraternal Order of Police, John Catanzara, told the Sun-Times.

“It’s pretty disgusting that they would hammer him to that level,” the union president said, calling Waller’s concerns about depleted police patrols “well understood and 100% spot-on.”

http://nyp...paring-reforms-to-rape-report/
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Aug 13 13:13:21
3: an act or instance of robbing or despoiling or carrying away a person by force

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rape
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Aug 13 13:15:13
Once while playing GW2 this "huntard" destroyed me, like over and over, his health bar would not even drop. I came back to avenge my pride, but he totally raped me.
Rugian
Member
Thu Aug 13 13:20:24
Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Aug 13 13:15:13
"Once while playing GW2 this "huntard" destroyed me, like over and over, his health bar would not even drop. I came back to avenge my pride, but he totally raped me."

*stunned silence*

Dont ever say that again. There might be people suffering from PTSD in this room of gun-wielding police officers.
hood
Member
Thu Aug 13 13:59:08
It should be noted that the connotation of Nim's guild wars example is, in fact, a reference to being forcibly penetrated. That's what getting raped in a game is: something you didn't consent to, but was forced upon you and horrific. You don't "rape" someone by barely beating them. It's a humiliating defeat, a show of total dominance. You know, rape.

It should also be noted that nobody uses "rape" to mean robbing or carrying away. Merriam-webster labels that definition as archaic. You might as well have quoted this definition:
"the pomace of grapes left after expression of the juice."
Habebe
Member
Thu Aug 13 13:59:34
Who hasn't raped Nimatzo from time to time?

That was meant entirely in the apporpriate sense. By which I mean forcibly have relations of a sexual manner.
Habebe
Member
Thu Aug 13 13:59:42
Who hasn't raped Nimatzo from time to time?

That was meant entirely in the apporpriate sense. By which I mean forcibly have relations of a sexual manner.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Aug 13 14:02:47
It isn’t entirely true that I did not consent, I mean it is WvW i.e pvp, I knew what I was getting into.

Sigh, there I go victim shaming myself, I was asking for it, because it was pvp...
hood
Member
Thu Aug 13 14:08:22
It's not victim blaming if you actually WERE asking for it. And arguably after the umpteenth time you were raped and finally went back to exact revenge, you were asking for something.
Rugian
Member
Thu Aug 13 14:13:55
There's nimatzo, once again entering that PvP lobby at 10 in the evening while stinking of weed and dressed in that super-skimpy outfit. Bitch is asking to get the d.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Thu Aug 13 14:15:36
Another said she was concerned for anyone in the room who may have “had traumatic histories with that kind of abuse.”

-----

Lulz. Strong empowered women cops can't handle a little weak banter. Pathetic.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Aug 13 14:28:08
It is a fair point. Rape, in popular culture (gaming especially) does not necessarily have anything to do with consent. It is an expression of being helpless while getting pwned, even though you consented to the game and risk of getting ”raped”. You are asking for, and if you had the chance you would do it to.

Not the same if you are a police chief who, you know investigates actual rapes. Yet something normal people in context could forgive. Thrice, someone has slipped up around me and used a derogatory swedish term for immigrants, talking about something. Instantly realizing their mistake and getting red in the face. I blend in so well, they forget. I could have fucked their lives, one was a CEO, the other a co-worker. I don’t know if I did the right thing, but in a strange way me not making a big deal about and allowing them to save face, it felt good. Like, bitch I could destroy you, but you don’t mean that much to me.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Aug 13 14:28:43
^first paragraph for hood.
Habebe
Member
Thu Aug 13 14:30:18
Seriously, its an expression. Like " my boss will kill me if this doesnt get in on time"

Or. " you killing me"

" I could eat a horse"
Renzo Marquez
Member
Thu Aug 13 14:33:43
Everyone should have this banger on repeat while reading this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrVPPLNLEZM
Dukhat
Member
Sat Aug 15 03:52:23
Who knew that the lingo incel retards commonly use online gets you in trouble in the real world?

Seb
Member
Sat Aug 15 04:38:52
Habebe:

"Like a nigger in the woodpile" is also an expression.

Some expressions are worth dropping.

A quite alarming proportion of women girls experience sexual assault at some point in their life, often at a young age too.

A common problem has been police offices not taking the crime seriously, especially unless the woman bares significant visible wounds (I.e. it only counts if it would otherwise have been a very serious non sexual assault).

So yeah, for a senior police officer, which has actual expected duties in his job to set attitudes, to use that expression indicates a fundamental lack of *professional* judgement.
Seb
Member
Sat Aug 15 04:47:16
In gaming culture, dominantly shaped by young boys and adolescents who don't worry about rape, I can see why they give it little thought.

I made a conscious effort to drop it during my mid to late 20s when I discovered nearly every one of my female friends either had a story about sexual assault ether as victim or direct witness; and often little done about it in part because male bouncers, stewards etc. treat a guy groping a woman as "well, minor thing, he said she said, whattyagonnado?".

We should take these things more seriously, and part of that means recognising metaphor and analogy cuts both ways.

In the gaming sense, it celebrates raw power, but that's kinda the point about rape as a crime. The analogy is at best a bit tasteless.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Aug 15 05:28:15
I use the expression ”my nigga” with one of my closest friends, he is as white as they come. I will keep using this expression, but likely not at work.

As always context matters, this is what seperates say a moderate muslim with a literalist fundamentalist, the capacity to contextualize.
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 15 06:10:40
"capacity to contextualize" I wonder how much that has to do with prohibitions on idoltary. Visualization is a powerful tool.
Habebe
Member
Sat Aug 15 12:13:54
Seb, In all fairness rape is tricky. It is one of the crimes that is frequently faked alongside things like PFAs. I read somewhere that over 80% of PFAs were b.s..

So when there is a crime that is easy to fake with little to no pinishment for faking it , coupled with severe life ruining punishment if the accused is found guilty it is a crime that people should be skeptical of.

The downside is some women should be taken seriously and are not.

Im a proponet myself that due process should be followed to the same extent with rape as it is murder, reasonable doubt. Unfortunately many people do not feel the same way
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 15 12:38:53
Oh jesus.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Aug 15 12:43:55
It is an interesting observation, one that I have not thought about.

When the revolution came my father couldn't work at the university anymore, so he became an illustrator for a magazine, drawing comics. Of course the revolution didn't spare the comic books, so they had to run the mandatory Islamic stories, they were all drawn by my father. I still have many of those comic books in some box somewhere. Muhammed was never depicted at all, but the Shia imams like Ali were, but instead of having faces it was just white, like a veil. I found it strange even as a child, everyone else had faces. The 5 year old me could not relate.

As you say visualization is powerful, it humanizes these characters and brings them down to earth.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Aug 15 12:59:18
"male bouncers, stewards etc. treat a guy groping a woman as "well, minor thing, he said she said, whattyagonnado?""

If that's what you're including in your "nearly every one of [your] female friends", then yeah, that's pretty minor, not some rape epidemic.

Seb
Member
Sat Aug 15 13:27:18
Forwyn:

"then yeah, that's pretty minor"

Is it now?

I imagine you might feel differently if someone bigger, stronger and who you were perfectly aware was able to overpower pinned you, stuck their sweaty hands down your pants squeezed your balls and fondled your asshole while sticking their tongue down throat and you didn't want it; and everyone else around just shrugged and the bouncers said "well, yeah, shit happens, doesn't sound that serious yet, and you might be faking it, I'm not going to ask that guy to leave because you have no proof".

This attitude, basically, is why you have "me too".

Seb
Member
Sat Aug 15 13:36:52
Habebe:

"So when there is a crime that is easy to fake with little to no pinishment for faking it , coupled with severe life ruining punishment if the accused is found guilty it is a crime that people should be skeptical of."

Are you kidding me?

The conviction rate for Rape is low, generally few complaints make it to court due to lack of evidence - often due to failure to process physical evidence packs in a timely way.

And people who are proven to have falsely accused someone of rape often are indeed prosecuted for, depending on how far it gets, wasting police time or perjury.

I really don't know where you get this stuff.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Aug 15 15:54:03
@Seb:

That's full-blown sexual assault. Don't conflate it with a one-off over-the-clothes groping.

I've been publicly groped by a drunk woman without giving consent. It's not a big deal. Drunk people are idiots.
Seb
Member
Sat Aug 15 15:54:26
Seb
Member
Sat Aug 15 15:58:59
Forwyn, you realise groping encompasses that? That's the kind of shit my friends were talking about. Not just someone copping a feel.

That would be every girl ever, everywhere.

And how do you know that a someone grabbing your tit through your clothes isn't going to go further?

You are unable to really compare what is and isn't a big deal, because in your case you aren't being physically over powered, in fear of being physically overpowered etc.

This idea there is a clear distinction of severity from "not worth worrying about" to "rape" is something of a confection. It's all pretty horrendous really, if you bother to really put yourself into that position.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Aug 15 16:03:17
Yawn. Copping a feel isn't a big deal if you're big and strong and can't use being big and strong in any way or you'd be curbstomped by a half dozen white knights, but copping a feel is literally rape if it's a drunk douchebag instead of a drunk woman.

Keep going.
Seb
Member
Sat Aug 15 16:12:30
Forwyn, you completely miss the point.

For the average woman against the average man, if a man decides to grope a woman through their clothes, the *only* thing that's preventing them going all the way to rape is that mans self-restraint and the liklihood of someone intervening; a self-restraint they have just demonstrated they don't have and a possibility that everybody near by (and every man who has ever voiced the point that groping is no big deal) has undermined.

In that moment, that woman knows the terror of being raped, whether the guy goes through with it or not. And honestly, it's a fear you aren't ever going to have, whether a woman groping a man is morally as bad or not.

Now you can argue that "groping isn't the same as rape, and many a guy who will grope won't sexually assault, and many who sexually assault won't engage in penetrative rape", but that's based on a mans conception of escalating severity.

Essentially, the whole idea of this gradiation is what gives some men the license to think it is "okay" or "maybe a bit naughty but not so bad" to grope. Or your president to have bragged about it on radio, for example, and many people to have elected him to president despite it. And of course others to think "well, it's kinda like a grope, but my hand slipped under her top, and besides, nothing (else) happened".

We men should make groping as socially unacceptable as rape amongst our peers. And part of that I think is thinking very carefully about whether rape is a great thing to be using as a ironic or humorous metaphor.

But hey, sure, keep going with your "groping is no big deal" thing.
Seb
Member
Sat Aug 15 16:15:52
That is not to say the law cannot or should not distinguish (in the same way it does) between various forms of homicide.

I'm talking about our attitudes towards it.

And, as a passing thought, I keep coming back to your quote:

"That's full-blown sexual assault. Don't conflate it with a one-off over-the-clothes groping."

You do realise grabbing someones breast or crotch through clothes is also sexual assault right (at least in most jurisdictions)? I mean, I hope you do...
Seb
Member
Sat Aug 15 16:21:17
And just to be really, really explicit:

Pointing out that your argument that because for you being groped by a woman was "no big deal" it must follow that it is "no big deal" for a woman to be groped by a man is dumb, and the very obvious reasons why that would not follow; is not in fact me arguing that we should treat woman being groped differently to men being groped as you claim.

We should treat them both equally severely, and reject your asinine rubbish that because it was no big deal for you, it would be no big deal for a woman.

Genuinely, this kind of idiocy is why we end up with "me too" and "cancel culture". It's because a significant number of men are literally too stupid to socialise themselves.
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 15 16:41:25
Its not hard to understand, who of you would like to be groped by a roider weighing half again what you do?
Habebe
Member
Sat Aug 15 16:57:37
"And people who are proven to have falsely accused someone of rape often are indeed prosecuted for, depending on how far it gets, wasting police time or perjury."

I'm going to need a cite for that which includes the punishment given.

Mind you that rape is afaik a harsher punishment than perjury.

There is a low conviction rate generally. Likely for the reasons I listed its a difficult to prove crime that is easy to fake unfortunately that means that many actual rapes ( likely most) go unpunished.

Its a bad situation all around really.

But normally in the US wrongful convictions are like 2-5% . Now that's the ones that gst overturned, the real numbers are probably much higher.

But in SA cases its drastically higher at about 11%.

http://www...ult-cases-pre-dna-testing-era/

I should point put that this is Pre DNA cases*

And that these were wrongful convictions that have been proven wrong not just all wrongful convictions really.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Aug 15 17:04:08
"if a man decides to grope a woman through their clothes, the *only* thing that's preventing them going all the way to rape is that mans self-restraint and the liklihood of someone intervening; a self-restraint they have just demonstrated they don't have and a possibility that everybody near by (and every man who has ever voiced the point that groping is no big deal) has undermined."

This does not sound like it actually describes most altercations, sexual or otherwise. There are more assaults than murders, but a good margin, the same goes for various degrees of sexual assault. Clearly the overwhelming majority of misfits do not escalate infinitely and have the self-restraint to stop. X % of times someone does something inappropriate, maybe even criminal, they see the dismayed reaction, a slap in the face or a "fuck off creep" and they turn away in shame with their tails between their legs.

This insanity you are describing, is exclusively taking place in an imagination running wild.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Aug 15 20:31:20
"groping isn't the same as rape, and many a guy who will grope won't sexually assault, and many who sexually assault won't engage in penetrative rape"

More like, "Groping isn't the same as rape, so you shouldn't conflate a groping victim with a rape victim, simply because the former had a brief flitter of fear". Any notion of saying it's acceptable behavior is in your head; it's just not a huge deal.

If you get groped in a club and you equate yourself with a rape victim and act traumatized, you're a weak person, and you're doing a disservice to victms of rape and more severe sexual assault.

Get yourself an EDC, and you won't have to worry about strength disparities and Seb's abounding incel armies going further than an ass grab.
Habebe
Member
Sat Aug 15 20:56:24
Isn't penatrative rape like fatal murder?
Dukhat
Member
Sat Aug 15 22:50:07
This is why everyone should own a boat. Anything goes on the open seas. I learned this from Jeffrey Epstein. That is before me and Hillary decided to kill him even though Trump controls the Federal government and it was literally unheard of until William Barr became the AG that anyone died in Federal custody.
Seb
Member
Sun Aug 16 04:41:46
Nothing so embodies the concept of male entitlement as the idea that hoping is "no big deal" because it does not proceed to rape.

The very idea of this gradient is what allows some men to think it's OK to grope but not rape.

If we socially set the norm that groping is as unacceptable as rape, would so many of those individuals that grope but don't rape feel so free to do so?

That's what we should reject the gradient.

As for fear occurring in the imagination, so does PTSD. That doesn't mean it doesn't have long lasting physiological effects. And the test for crimes like harassment involves considering what a reasonable person would experience and interpret from the actions of the perpetrator.

This is not the killer argument you think.

jergul
large member
Sun Aug 16 04:57:39
Or rather, it may have been the killer argument for a while, but times are changing.

Hence the outrage from emotional luddites unable to grasp that tolls must be paid.

Perhaps not now, but as Epsteins shows, you can die from things you think are ok now, that may come to haunt you with extreme judicial predjudice in a few decades.
Seb
Member
Sun Aug 16 07:19:21
What Epstein is accused of was very much a crime at the time.
Seb
Member
Sun Aug 16 07:48:19
Habebe:

Being asked to leave a club isn't a really the same as being convicted though is it?

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=woman+convicted+for+crying+rape

There is your link
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 16 09:12:39
Seb
Of course it was. He has not charged retroactively with new legislation. But it seemed ok to him and his social circle.
Seb
Member
Sun Aug 16 10:09:17
Jergul:

Though I agree with the general point, I think there's a slight difference in that they knew it a crime and they'd be punished if caught, whereas others here night be surprised if some of the things that are, in their minds, "no big deal" suddenly became a big deal, and would claim it unfair as society at the time thought it "OK".

Seb
Member
Sun Aug 16 10:21:46
I do think it interesting that several appear to have a problem separating norm setting through social behaviour with criminal sanction, sentencing etc.

This enables a mentality of "do what you can get away with", not "do what I right", in the same way this "no big deal" approach to various forms of sexual assault does.

Of course, if men don't help set norms of social behaviour and continue to treat some forms of sexual assault as no big deal because they think the female experience of it is somehow "unreal" or "irrational", I suspect we will see more cancellation culture style responses to set that norm instead, and eventually stronger criminalisation and sentencing guidelines.

Lack of responsibility on this point is why we can't have nice things.

Bottom line, I'd rather ditch the juvenile and tasteless language that can be inferred to treat sexual assault lightly or glorifies the term as a metaphor for an act of skill/power, given a sufficient number of men evidently think so little of it that pretty much every woman I knew at university had experienced some form of sexual assault skin on skin by their mid 20s.



Habebe
Member
Sun Aug 16 10:49:54
Seb, I dont know what being asked to leave a club has anything to do with my post.

Groping random women while not the same as rape, im on your side, it shouldn't be tolerated.

Your "cite" just goes. To show that women routinely make.false claims of rape and receive little to no pinishment. Some of the worst is 2 years in jail. Much more often its 6 months or less with less being fines or threatened to be charged.

So 6 months compated to 10 years!

Keep in mind that in some studies up to 1/3 of rape cases were later admitted* to be false. Now that is higher than. The average which seems.to be about 10% but have been shown to be anywhere from 2-90%.
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 16 11:13:45
"Rape allegations made to police or campus authority"

Is that what you are citing?

I guess that is why we have police to investigate these things, then courts to met out justice instead of just lynching people.

10% of the lynchees would have been innocent from the numbers you are citing.
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 16 11:20:23
Rape has a conviction rate of 5% or something, right?

So if we imagine that 10% make false accusations for whatever reason, and are not punished, then it still means that for every 2 people not punished for a false claim, there are 19 that are not punished for rape.

You were saying the injustice was where exactly?
Habebe
Member
Sun Aug 16 11:34:01
Jergul, If you read my earlier posts you will see I clearly said the injustice is all around.

Rape is a difficult to prove crime.

Now Seb claimed that women are routinely punished for false claims. To which I pointed out that going to jail for rape gets a far worse punishment than a false rape claimed would get.

It does no one a service that many rapists do not get caught.Just as it benefits no one that false rape claimed get off with a slap on the wrist.

If anything they are a large contributor to the reason why many cases are looked at so skeptically.
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 16 13:05:48
You do get I just outlined an order of magnitude difference, right?
Habebe
Member
Sun Aug 16 13:24:54
I do. But you also realize that 10 years in jail compared to 6 months or less is also an order of magnitude.

And more importantly this is not a which group wins sort of situation. A false accusation is not a win for females just as a rapist going free is not a win for males.

As for your math, I would argue it is still flawed anyway. It assumes that all of those rape accusations are true by saying 19 people for every 2 are not punished for rape. It doesn't account that a big reason for not punishing someone for rape is because it did not occur or that it did not occur.
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 16 14:13:34
We just established that is true for less than 10% of cases. It is also true that "unfounded" allegations are not all criminal, indeed, wilful false accusations are almost certainly a minute minority of allegations.

The important thing is that legal practices shift to give greater justice. In the matter we are discussing, this means a lot more convictions for sexual crimes.
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 16 14:16:05
I am incidentally not against demoralizing sexual crimes to some extent. It is a profound attack on an individual, but it is no longer the destruction of another man's valued property (be that man father or husband).
Habebe
Member
Sun Aug 16 14:24:25
No, What we established was that about 11% of guilty convictions were proven wrongfully convictions due to DNA.

I firmly beleive many rapists get away with there crimes unfortunately.

But there is strong evidence to suggest that for different reasons such allegations are frequently false.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

All sorts of info.
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 16 14:32:26
You dont present a new argument and claim you had already established that argument. You also do not throw an encyclopedia in someones lap and say it proves that point.

What are you trying to claim with that 11%?

Allegations are by no way and means frequently false. They are wrong for various reasons in 10% of cases.

But ultimately, you are not really arguing against my point. Greater justice is achieved by more convictions for sexual crimes.
Habebe
Member
Sun Aug 16 14:51:34
I didn't claim it proves my point. To the contrary it shows conflicting evidence really.

Now we obviously have different meanings for the term "justice"

I would say it would be preferred if the actual rapists got convicted and the actual false accusers got convicted while the innocent people were free.

"Allegations are by no way and means frequently false. They are wrong for various reasons in 10% of cases."

What is the proof/evidence of this?

If 11 % of convictions were proven false by DNA the total number is likley much higher. You can have sex with someone and it not be rape so DNA would only prove so many cases wrong.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Aug 16 14:51:45
I think one of habebe’s point was that you example presumes that the other 95% of alleged rapists brought to trial were guilty. Legally they are not guilty, it is difficult to say what percentage of those brought to trial were innocent. There is a factor here that may confound things, there may be an overrepresentation of false rape accusation in those that go to trial. Vindictive people who have not actually suffered trauma, may be more likely to follow through. Trauma and shame, we know, plays a role in most rapes not even getting reported.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Aug 16 14:54:12
Habebe
Yes, but those 11% are not all completely false accusations, some of them are mistaken perpretrator.
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 16 14:58:55
Habebe
You were quoting the 10% unfounded allegations. What 11% of convictions were proven false by DNA evidence?

Nimi
The 95% is from allegations are presented to authorities through to conviction or aquittal.

I was never suggesting all 100% were criminally liable, nor, as you point out, are 100% of the unfounded allegations criminally liable).
Habebe
Member
Sun Aug 16 15:22:01
Nimatzo, Oh absolutley. There in lies one of the other issues that makes this so difficult. Its not like murder in the sense where there is a body.

The one guy said the cases were somewhere between 1.5% -90% , both extremes seems ridiculous and its not as though we can just say split the difference.

Then throw in what defines rape to diffwrent people and what defines unfounded and false etc.

Oddly enough a recurring theme in false accusations seemed to be an alibi which is much more prevalent than attention gathering or revenge.

So a woman cheats and gets caught or a parent finds out she slept with someone they disaprove of and as a last resort they claim rape.

Jergul, I posted it earlier in the thread that 11% of cases innthe US of pre DNA convictions were released due to DNA.
Habebe
Member
Sun Aug 16 15:24:28
http://www...ult-cases-pre-dna-testing-era/
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 16 15:30:14
Habebe
Ty. I did not see it.

So of 200 allegations made to the authorities, 10 will lead to convictions and 1 of those is historically an incorrect conviction.

Is that a fair summary in your mind?
Habebe
Member
Sun Aug 16 15:37:37
I think it leaves out context. You will find this at the wiki link btw.

The Kanin study was replicated by Daniel Kennedy and Michael Witkowski of the University of Detroit. They recorded data from the period of 1988 to 1997 in an unnamed suburb of around 100,000, situated close to Detroit in the American state of Michigan. The authors found 68 reports of forcible rape, of which in 22 cases (32%) the complainants admitted that their reports were false. Similar to the Kanin study, most of these false reports served as an alibi (15 out of 22, 68% of the false reports). Diverging from the Kanin study, revenge was rarely cited as a reason (1 out of 22, 5% of the false reports). The remaining cases were cited to attention-seeking (6 out of 22, 27% of false reports).[43]
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 16 15:41:28
So you no longer agree with the 10% estimate, but want it to be higher?

Its still dwarfed by 95% of allegations not leading to a conviction for whatever reason.
Habebe
Member
Sun Aug 16 15:47:15
I think its difficult to pinpoint and if we are to try we must first clearly define by what terms.

Also " whatever reasons" is vital. If those reasons are that they are not legally provable, or accusers recanted statements due to police disregarding a real claim, it males a big difference.

I do not pretend to be an expert on the topic but I'm willing to dive in and find out the evidence backed truth to the best of our ability.

First we habe to agree on clear definitions.

Are we talking all SA? Forcible rape? Unfounded claims vs false identity etc.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Aug 16 15:58:24
Jergul
Wrong doing is established in those to some degree in those 10%, they falsely accused someone of rape and while not criminal it is unethical. Nothing is established about the 95% that go free. When you compare them, it sounds like you are begging the question.
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 16 16:21:57
Nimi
There is a difference between a wrong allegation and a false allegation. Quite a lot has been established about at least 85% of those that go free (subtracting the 10% wrong/false accusations).

But when quantifying, its important to remember the dark numbers. A huge number of sexual assaults are not even reported. At least not yet (metoo demonstrates there can be a significant time lag in these things).

I think the numbers we are looking at are ball park enough for the sake of this discussion.
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 16 16:24:15
habebe
It does not really matter. It would just involve tweaking the ratio without changing the fundamental that more justice is gained through more convictions. We could tweak either way as I indicated in that last post to nimi with dark numbers.
Habebe
Member
Sun Aug 16 16:42:28
Jergul, Well, again we have different thoughts of justice.

You give them equal weight for starters that its equally as just or unjust for an innocent man to be convicted as it is for an guilty man to go free.
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 16 16:55:16
That is incorrect. I have no idea why you drew that conclusion. So let me be clear, I believe the principle of reasonable doubt should remain intact.

The only fundamental disagreement I can see is that in all cases except sexual assault, a person has to prove permission is otherwise accused of intrusive.

A home invader saying he was invited in. A simple assaulter claiming the victim asked him to punch him or whatever.

We are likely trending towards needing applications that easily document consent.
Habebe
Member
Sun Aug 16 17:04:23
Ok but you can see the difference between having sex and having someone punch you, right?
Seb
Member
Sun Aug 16 17:04:59
Habebe:

I'm not sure what your post has to do with mine then!
Seb
Member
Sun Aug 16 17:06:24
"To show that women routinely make.false claims of rape and receive little to no pinishment. Some of the worst is 2 years in jail. "

Routinely? Hmm, no.

Purjury is a crime, do you think purjuring yourself over rape should be worse than purjuring yourself over murder, assault, fraud etc?

Two years is a steep sentence for perjury.
Seb
Member
Sun Aug 16 17:07:36
"To which I pointed out that going to jail for rape gets a far worse punishment than a false rape claimed would get."

Yes. Rape is considered a far worse crime than perjury.
Habebe
Member
Sun Aug 16 17:18:18
It is my personal opinion that that a false accusation should carry an equal sentence to the crime falsely being accused.
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 16 18:30:24
"Ok but you can see the difference between having sex and having someone punch you, right?"

Yes I do! Rape is a far worse crime than simple assault. So its best to have the documentation in order.

Though I get that you are trying to suggest that consensual sex is far more common than consensual punches, I fail to see why that would matter.
jergul
large member
Sun Aug 16 18:36:45
But we are making progress. Nice to see you want Trump deported to Sudan or wherever the hell he thought Obama was from.
Forwyn
Member
Sun Aug 16 18:42:05
"hoping is "no big deal" because it does not proceed to rape.

The very idea of this gradient is what allows some men to think it's OK to grope but not rape."

You might be legitimately retarded, but we'll try one more time.

Groping people is not acceptable behavior. You can move to make it even more unacceptable through whatever means we like - we'll probably disagree there, too, but groping shouldn't happen, alongside the myriad other immoral things humans do.

You might dislike the gradient, but it's fact, all the same. Groping is not rape; it might be immoral and make the victim uncomfortable and deserve a beating, but it's not rape, and a skinned knee is not an amputated leg.

An active imagination does not make it so.

Even jergul understands the spectrum of crime severity. Stop peddling false statistics by conflating skinned knees to make your point.
Habebe
Member
Sun Aug 16 19:09:19
Jergul, Funny you should mention that. My personal criminal attorney used to be Phil Berg. His neice used to date my uncle.
Seb
Member
Mon Aug 17 01:02:48
Forwyn:

For the nth time, we aren't talking about this as a crime.

It's actually really disturbing you can't disentangle the idea about how seriously one should treat something as a norm from the criminal sanction.

The question you should be asking yourself is why so many men think it is OK to grope and sexually assault but not rape.

"Well, I was groped by a woman once and it was no big deal, so I guess it's just one of those things that happen, it's unacceptable but, meh," is about as incoherent and idiotic a proposition I've ever come across.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Aug 17 03:22:18
Seb
"The question you should be asking yourself is why so many men think it is OK to grope and sexually assault but not rape."

Because they think women like it or that it is an appropriate courting technique and some of them, think meh it isn't that big of a deal, further a fraction of them are dangerous predators.

Even groping exists on a gradient, a slap on the ass isn't the same thing as a hand in your crotch. But you and your imagination seb, you fly off the cliff at super sonic speed as soon as someone mentions women. You may never understand this, but it precludes any form of sober discussion with you on these issues.
Seb
Member
Mon Aug 17 03:31:35
Nim:

Your tendency to describe anything you haven't experienced as imaginary is solipsistic at best, at worst it renders you totally unable to grapple with the real world.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Aug 17 03:38:44
Jergul
Yes, I agree, it is what I said to habebe and why I said it is unethical, even if not criminal. Yet we could argue that some of those cases are victims that were so badly traumatized and more or less led by the police to pick some poor bastard as the perp. Even when taking all of that into account, those 10% are very different than the 95% not guilty verdicts.

I disagree that you can tweak based on the stats of unreported rapes. As I explained and it is in fact a truism, false accusations do not go unreported. Most rape victims (varies with culture) carry a shame, they may not even talk about with anyone, a burden that a false accuser does not have, will gladly sit through interviews.

This would be a form survivorship bias that may not give an accurate picture, as far as guilt, innocence and conviction rates goes. It could very well be that the conviction rate is low because the vast majority of actual victims and perps never see trial and those that do are full of false accusations.

I don't know these things for a fact, but I see enough confounders, both from studies and anecdotally, to think the conviction rate isn't the primary problem, it is the rate of reporting.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Aug 17 03:41:46
Seb
Your tendency to describe anyone who disagrees with you as lacking experience is lazy at best, at worst it renders you totally unable to grapple with the real world.

Don't ever try to judge me dude, you don't know what the fuck I've been through.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Aug 17 03:50:44
Seb
mind you, I did not say the examples you present are imaginary, i.e they do not happen, but that you imagination flies off the cliff, only worst case scenario exists, there are no shades, life is a nightmare for women a veritable mine field. A slap on the ass is just a nano second away from a violent rape. If not for the other people around you.

Your understanding of the world is a farce, it is impossible to agree with anything you say because of this. And that of course vindicates your world view in your head, as you walk away thinking nobody takes these issues seriously.
Forwyn
Member
Mon Aug 17 04:03:00
"deserve a beating"

"For the nth time, we aren't talking about this as a crime.

It's actually really disturbing you can't disentangle the idea about how seriously one should treat something as a norm from the criminal sanction."

Kiddo, you're the guy that advocates sending police to a kid's doorstep for sending racist DM's on Twitter. I'm the guy who had advocated for years, decriminalizing non-violent behavior, but strengthening social taboos via networking.

Your ilk have taken it to the extreme via cancel culture, but maybe you shouldn't lecture.

"The question you should be asking yourself is why so many men think it is OK to grope and sexually assault but not rape."

Why do so many humans think it is OK to mug and assault and rob and burglarize, but not tie a person down and burn them to death and murder everyone in their family tree?

Because existence is a gradient, you fucking idiot, and individuals have their own morals and inhibitions, that largely exist within their own Overton Window, and only the extremities outside of the window really garner attention.

Again, perhaps you shouldn't be equivocating mild antisocial behavior with massive victimization, in your quest for radical equality.
jergul
large member
Mon Aug 17 04:10:27
Moralism remains problematic. Does it really matter if grouping is the reason you are now on a sex offender list instead of being on it for rape?

We intuitively get that for physical violence. I slapped him is different than I curvestomped him, then gave him a gentle kiss with a baseball bat.

I am not sure the sexual assault is as easily explained even if you wanted to try. No, no, it was not rape grandma, all I did was fondle her without permission.

The gradient is in practical terms invisible once a conviction is secured and any prison time is served.

Relying on a gradient is relying on the victim, the police and/or prosecutors trivializing lesser crimes and not bringing charges forward.

This does not seem to be a long term viable strategy.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Aug 17 04:57:15
"Moralism remains problematic."

But none of this, atleast as argued here has anything to do with morals. Getting groped is not as serious of a violation of your integrity as getting raped.

You ask these types of questions, ask yourself, would you rather have your balls fondled or be sodomized? Why do you prefer one of the other? It has nothing to do with the morality of sodomy, it has to do with your perception of pain and suffering, the degree to which the borders of your personal integrity have been violated.
Seb
Member
Mon Aug 17 05:30:25
Nim:

Have you been forcibly penetrated by an individual physically powerful enough to overpower you, and separately been groped by one while all around you look the other way?

If so, great. If not, your lack of experience (and mine) is a demonstrable fact.


My original point was that forum being groped by a woman is sufficiently contextually different (also his account of it being no big deal differed from experienced by many woman) that it doesn't actually work as experience.

That's not imaginary either other than that all meaning is ascribed to anything in the mind. You need to tip with the casual and facile handwavery if you want to be taken seriously. It doesn't make you look clever and it occludes whatever argument you night be making.

The gradient from "unacceptable, 3 months jail" to "unacceptable, 10 years jail" is all well and good, but not the topic of conversation.

I was talking about "you groped a woman? Unacceptable, I'm not socialising with you any more" - the way we talk about rape, sexual assault and behave about it greatly affects the level of permissiveness some men feel entitled to.

Seb
Member
Mon Aug 17 05:32:09
"but that you imagination flies off the cliff, only"

I haven't spoken in terms of worst case or best case scenarios, so I can only advise you to read again. Like I said, handwavey adhoms don't help.
Seb
Member
Mon Aug 17 05:39:46
Forwyn:

People who rob and steal know they are committing a clear crime.

Most often, when a young man commits a sexual offence on campus say, a great deal if people genuinely suggest it shouldn't be a criminal matter or treated laxly. The issue very much is about boundary setting, not ability of individuals to keep to well defined boundaries.

For someone that is for social enforcement over criminal, to say groping is no big deal then carries more weight: you ought to be saying it's unacceptable. otherwise you are contributing to that lack of well set boundary and undermining the system you claim to support.

Cancel culture is the backlash against men not setting sensible boundaries for masculine behaviour. That's all.


jergul
large member
Mon Aug 17 05:41:30
Nimi
You did not understand my point. Sexual crimes seem particularly horrid because of the vestiges of moralism where such things despoiled and ruined a man's property (be it husband or father). In that sense, ruined is ruined.

We see that most clearly in how life changing being named on a sex offender list is, no matter what for.

After sentences are served, the lifetime brand remains - and the brand does not exist on a gradient in any meaningful sense.

Hence moralism being troublesome.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Aug 17 06:07:29
Seb
I reject the idea, that you need to have personally experienced something to have informed opinions about it and reach truthful conclusions. In many ways it may cloud your judgment talking about the the experience in broader terms.

The experiences that I do have from people close to me be it of sexual cassault or false allegations are not things I want to talk about on this forum in any detail. That is another reason to dismiss your little solopsism outbursts about personal experience. Just stop assuming things one way or another, it does nothing for your case. We are not that close and even if we were I would find it distasteful that anyone be forced to qualify their opinions with horrible experiences.

"(also his account of it being no big deal differed from experienced by many woman)"

Everyone (but you) was able to put what forwyn said in context, as in, relative to much worse forms of sexual assaults. It is a figure of speech.

Your experience about what the many women you know think, isn't the totality of female experience, I explained it further up the thread. There is quite the diversity of reactions, outcomes and lessons drawn for women that experience sexual assasult. It is funny, that your own lack of a more diverse range of stories, constantly trips you into accusing other of the same.

>>I was talking about "you groped a woman? Unacceptable, I'm not socialising with you any more"<<

We all get what you are talking about, but do you get that there is more to this, that what you talk about?

This is of course your prerogative, but if indeed socialization is the problem (which I think is part of the problem), what is the effect if everyone (with good judgment like yourself) cut ties with people who showed poor judgement? You think they would disappear? They won't, so this black and white outlook, is not going to lead to the outcomes you desire.

"adhoms don't help."

"I haven't spoken in terms of worst case or best case scenarios"

In fact you have only spoken about worst case scenarios and as if all women think, feel and reason the same way about these altercations. If you feel me pointing out the insanity in this are "ad homs", so be it. I absolve you from any sense of duty you feel you have in responding to me.

Maybe you also think ad homs do not exists on a gradient either, that when I say "your imagination is running wild", that is the same thing as "seb's people" and "seb's wife's boyfriend"?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Aug 17 06:29:31
Jergul
Ok, that is a point I have brought up myself before, expanding to a more modern moralistic term, not as male property, but because it the vessle for procreation. There is something special about it even when we strip it of the old morality. I get that point. However, the problem you raise is specific to countries that put you on public lists and demand that you inform your neighborhood about it.

We are wired to some degree to think the worst, if I have a wife and daughter, I may not be so inclined to see the different shades when I find out some guy who was convicted of groping moves in next to me.

I am still not sure, what you are trying to say Jergul. Would you care to explain?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Aug 17 06:33:35
"You think they would disappear? They won't, so this black and white outlook, is not going to lead to the outcomes you desire."

And ^this^ is comming from someone who dedicated quite some time, trying to help young men who had repeatedly showen poor judgment in life. If I did it for strangers, I would do it for my friends, there is no doubt.
jergul
large member
Mon Aug 17 08:04:44
Nimi
We think of sexual crimes as too heinous. More so than the straightforward sentencing guidelines can justify.

Its problematic because a sexual offender can never repay his debt to society as the court of opinion will condemn him forever.

It also victimizes the target permanently. Instead of "Shrug, I was raped a while back. The guy served his time. I was awarded 20k USD in damages and went to therapy for a while. Im ok now, though I wish it never happened".
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Aug 17 08:18:49
We don't actually have any material disagreements, I agree with you as a collective social phenomena, but I would add what I said to seb, at least from the victims perspective, it isn't nearly as bleak. The vast majority move on and feel they are "ok now". I does make me wonder, how much of this permnanent victimization is the indirect result of how the modern feminist movement has dealt with the issue and used the victimization narrative to garner empathy.

I have thought about this issue in an other manner for an even more henious sexual offence and that is pedophilia. Good luck finding people who have empathy for pedophiles, looking for a way to rehabilitate them.
jergul
large member
Mon Aug 17 08:27:57
Pedophilia is correctly classified as a chronic and serious mental illness. Comparable to someone who only gets off raping people, but where the targets are extremely vulnerable.

There is nothing redemmable about the illness and no empathy to be had for its expression in any form. People afflicted would responsibly remove their sex drive medically.
jergul
large member
Mon Aug 17 08:30:57
I think most of the victimization is vestige patriachy. Property permanently damaged.

Feminism is more about wrongs that have been done in the first place. Virtually every woman has experienced unwanted sexual attention and most of that attention is illegal by current standards.
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