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Utopia Talk / Politics / UAE/Israel treaty
sam adams
Member
Thu Aug 13 14:56:56
Libs are butthurt.

Iran is butthurt.

Hamas is butthurt.
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Thu Aug 13 14:58:51
Just cause Trump is good at assfucking doesn't mean we are all butthurt.
Habebe
Member
Thu Aug 13 15:03:00
You have to admit, that impressive.
jergul
large member
Thu Aug 13 15:04:26
It is impressive, but its a credit to Trump why exactly?
Habebe
Member
Thu Aug 13 15:13:06
Im not entirely sure. Supposedly he Brokered the deal.

Trump, Ben and Zayeed released the statement together. Which wouldnt make sense unless he played a major role in the deal.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Aug 13 15:28:32
i recall Trump talking about UAE relations w/ Israel zero times

--------

"Trump, Ben and Zayeed released the statement together. Which wouldnt make sense unless he played a major role in the deal"

Netanyahu desperately wants Trump re-elected, they get gift after gift from Trump... (i'm sure UAE also getting shit but i haven't looked into it)

check the last paragraph...
http://pbs...X0Ag4MeR?format=jpg&name=large
both know how to play him w/ over-the-top praise
jergul
large member
Thu Aug 13 15:29:01
That would make sense in other ways. Pandering to Trump's sense of self-importance is always a good diplomatic move.
Paramount
Member
Thu Aug 13 15:34:00
We’ll have to wait and see how it is going to work out.

But. Who cares about UAE. Barely knew that Israel was still at war with them. I’d be more impressed if Israel pledged to stop killing Palestinians, stopped stealing land, and withdrew from Palestine.
jergul
large member
Thu Aug 13 15:43:23
Para
Israel has opted for a single-state solution long ago. I am fine with that and see no reason why countries should not have diplomatic relations with Israel.

The issues rotating around Israel's lack of democracy and to some extent unacceptable infringements on the right of self determination are much easier to deal with from a single state perspective.
jergul
large member
Thu Aug 13 15:44:31
Palestinians are the new Kurds perhaps, but in practical terms, they have been in the same situation as the Kurds since 1967.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Aug 13 15:54:35
i don't think there was any war in place, just UAE has now recognized Israel as a state

but team Trump will hype the shit out of it as if he had something to do w/ it & as if it matters to us
Habebe
Member
Thu Aug 13 16:09:39
"As a result of this diplomatic breakthrough and at the request of President Trump with the support of the United Arab Emirates, Israel will suspend declaring sovereignty" over areas of the West Bank as envisioned in a U.S. plan announced by Trump in January, it said.

http://www....com/article/amp/idUSKCN25926W
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Aug 13 16:16:02
if Trump is able to speak intelligently on the topic without reading off something then maybe it's possible he had a role

but this will never happen as he had no meaningful role (plus he's never spoken intelligently on a subject)
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Aug 13 16:49:49
Trump was asked a fairly basic question about it, was unable to answer... sent it to an adult

shocking
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Thu Aug 13 16:50:09
(in 'briefing' happening now)
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Aug 14 12:58:00
here's ^that briefing transcript:


Q Mr. President, what’s your understanding of how long Israel will suspend this West Bank annexation plan?

THE PRESIDENT: What do you think? Tell me. [to Ambassador]

[Ambassador answers]

...

Q Do you believe that a deal could have been reached without Israel’s agreement to temporarily suspend annexation?

THE PRESIDENT: What do you think about that, David? It’s interesting.

[Ambassador answers]

http://www...press-briefing-august-13-2020/

that's the specific issue Trump getting credit for yet he's unable to say -anything- on the topic? he must know less than nothing somehow... as he's fine bullshitting w/ no knowledge

proven that Trump had no involvement, no understanding (as one would imagine, impossible to imagine otherwise really)
Habebe
Member
Fri Aug 14 13:10:12
Tw, Well, in all fairness that specific issue is best answered by the Israelis anyway. The agreement is to temporarily not expand thete, but it has no set amount of time.

Now from my understanding its agreed that they unofficially will wait for the US to give the green light on when so as not to break the frahule peace but they could theoretically break it tomorrow.

Its in Israel's best interest not to atm. Were hoping for a domino effect in Bahrain and a few.other smaller ones.

SA would be a game changer, although they unofficially already work with the Israelis agaunst Iran as they are a bigger threat.
Habebe
Member
Fri Aug 14 13:11:16
Yes I know he asked the ambassador and not Ben, but its ship better for him to explicitly answer that.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Aug 14 13:15:41
my point is if Trump getting specific credit on that issue, he should be able to give some kind of intelligent response

he should have some idea how willing Israel was & an idea how long (how could that not come up?) & just ANYTHING at all on the topic, he LOVES spewing words from his mouth... but he's got nothing

it's clear he knew zero about it

yes, it's fine if others hammer out deals, but he should -know- about it (especially if you're going to specifically say he is responsible rather than his administration or whatever)

he's pushing for a Nobel prize again over it... what did he do? absolutely nothing at all
Paramount
Member
Fri Aug 14 13:45:56
Lol. They are only temporarily suspending the annexation. How jewish.
Habebe
Member
Fri Aug 14 14:00:38
Paramount, LOL. With no sst time frame.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Aug 14 14:44:58
But that also means it is worth nothing. Whenever Israel feels like it they will break it. The Khalif of UAE needed a bone, any bone so he could say, look I got something for Palestine. Not that I disagree with this development, clearly there are progressive forces in the Arab world, but they have to juggle that with the kind of forces that behead people.
jergul
large member
Fri Aug 14 14:55:17
Nimi
Facts on the ground. Israel opted for a one-state solution long ago. Annexation just formalizes this better. Its not even a bad thing in that sense.

Anyway, the diplomatic mission should have no problems finding a suitable place in Tel Aviv.

Or habebe, were you actually imagining UAE would opt to do that in Jerusalem? :)
Habebe
Member
Fri Aug 14 15:23:55
Jergul, Would it make a concrete difference? If anything it may just upset the other islamic nations.

Nim, Yes and no. Israel is a tough sell. It's like telling a drug addict " you will never get high again", they will run for the hills.


But you tell them " e wpupd lole you to stop for a while and take a break" you have a bettsr chance of either with tbis approach.

That was left on the table to be negotiated by the PA. So its likenthe UAE negotiated a cease fire and the PA needs to step up and sign for peace.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Aug 14 15:27:18
Jergul
In a sense, yea that would probably be the best. Annexation is better than occupation, it would make the Arabs Israeli citizen and not ghosts.
jergul
large member
Fri Aug 14 15:38:01
Not citizens immediately of course, but it clarifies what the actual problem is.

Lack of representation is a greater wrong than lack of a country.
jergul
large member
Fri Aug 14 15:39:17
habebe
It makes a difference in the sense that there are clear limits to how far diplomats will go to stoke Trump's ego.
Habebe
Member
Fri Aug 14 16:02:19
Perhaps. If this was anyone else this wouldnt even b a question.

The questuin really is then is that because of the hatred of Trump and his actions. Or because the evidence coupled with his precious actions merit this?
jergul
large member
Fri Aug 14 17:37:55
I am not sure what you mean. Pandering to Trump's ego is a low cost, high gain strategy.

But he is only one man with little long term instutional power behind him.

There is no point to setting up a diplomatic mission in Jerusalem. Trump would prefer that kind of direct endorsement, but the downsides heavily outway that factor.
Habebe
Member
Fri Aug 14 18:35:16
My point is that the people questioning his contributions on this matter would not be questioning Merkel or Obama. The Right likely would.

Does the situation itself display a preponderance of the evidence that he contributed nothing and they are just paying him lip service?

Your just looking at motive. They have something to gain but limited evidence that he didn't contribute in any meaningful way which is against what the other two leaders imply.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Aug 14 21:18:36
you posted the part yourself claiming 'at the request of Trump Israel suspending'

how could he be unable to say a single word about that element?

of course he did nothing, he has never had any knowledge of anything that has happened under his administration

Merkel or Obama would have knowledge of the agreement

also the ridiculous praise of Trump at the end is people knowing how to manipulate the moron child
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Aug 14 21:46:13
he would've been eager to describe his masterful deal-making & most importantly for him: to be taking credit

but he knew absolutely nothing so couldn't say anything

if you asked how the USMCA differs from NAFTA, do you think you'd get any accurate factual info?

he's not involved in things & has no attention span to learn anything beyond headline level info
Habebe
Member
Fri Aug 14 23:16:43
Tw, So your argument is what exactly?

That they just decided to push for an agreement to feed Trumps ego?
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Aug 14 23:22:54
it seems relations had been improving awhile

my only argument is Trump had NOTHING to do with this... and throwing in specific Trump praise is definitely Netanyahu trying to help Trump, i don't know anything about the UAE (like Trump)

i'm here (in UP) to note Trump is a total unfit fraud (& he keeps the evidence flowing rapidly)... i don't care much about politics :p
Habebe
Member
Fri Aug 14 23:55:48
But in all fairness, no matter Trump does or does not do you have the same response because your angry he is the potus.

In this case you spumd lile one of those people who used to complain that Wozniac was thw real genius behind Apple and not Jobs.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat Aug 15 00:52:15
or maybe Trump is never doing anything

this statement (which mentions Trump 4x, Netanyahu & other guy only 2x each) mentions Trump's "Vision for Peace" plan

do you honestly think if you asked him about that plan, he could describe it?

do you honestly think he could describe "the President's guidelines for reopening America" they kept mentioning months ago about virus?

he knew nothing about any of the R healthcare plans that first year when trying to pass those

name something his admin has done that he has seemed well-informed about... (able to speak accurately about... w/ actual details, not vague notions... without reading off a prompter)... if there's some evidence, i'll acknowledge it

(a real president would have an understanding of all these examples & be able to speak about them w/o reading words of others)
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 15 04:10:21
Habebe
A democratic president would not take credit for normalised relations.

I think it is fully documented that anger at the current administration is policy based.

People are correctly noting cult of personality elements, but boiling it down to dislike of Trump as a person is simply wrong.
TJ
Member
Sat Aug 15 10:42:50
jergul->"A democratic president would not take credit for normalized relations."

Biden praised the “welcome, brave, and badly needed act of statesmanship” and claimed he and former President Barack Obama cleared the path for Trump.

“The coming together of Israel and Arab states builds on the efforts of multiple administrations to foster a broader Arab-Israeli opening, including the efforts of the Obama-Biden administration to build on the Arab Peace Initiative,” he said.

I suppose you don't see that as taking some credit for normalization.

Trump->“That was a great deal made by very talented people that work with me and it’s been praised all over the world,” the president said.

"The Trump administration on Thursday announced it had brokered a historic peace deal between Israel and the United Arab Emirates that will pave the way for full normalization of relations between the two Middle Eastern countries."

Take note-> that will pave the way for full normalization of relations between the two Middle Eastern countries."

http://nyp...ke-credit-for-israel-uae-deal/
obaminated
Member
Sat Aug 15 10:50:29
Trump could cure cancer and tw would complain about all the medical professionals who lost their jobs over it.
hood
Member
Sat Aug 15 10:57:01
Corrected: trump would never cure cancer, and tw would make fun of trump for the pitiful effort.

"You just bring the light inside the body. The cancer can't take it."
Dakyron
Member
Sat Aug 15 10:58:40
"Trump could cure cancer"

No, he could not.
obaminated
Member
Sat Aug 15 11:01:53
Trump actually curing cancer wasnt my point.
TJ
Member
Sat Aug 15 11:10:35
Context seems of little importance these days. It is no mystery why the world is a powder keg that could explode any second.
hood
Member
Sat Aug 15 11:52:00
Your point was that no matter what Trump does, even if it's the greatest thing in the world, tw would find a way to see the bad side.

My flippant response was attacking the base of your point: Trump is not capable of accomplishing good things. Good things happen in spite of him.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat Aug 15 11:55:29
so, do you Trump people actually believe he has understandings of these deals? why is no one answering that

(as any real president would... not that he has to be doing all the detail work, just being involved & learning what is being done)

if so, you are mistaken... & gullible


when talking about AOC or Kamala, he says 'look at things she said, so horrible' (never has accurate examples, he will at most make up quotes... which is worse)

or on 'obamagate'... 'you go look at the things coming out, so horrible'... (again, no accurate details)


this was his defense of his 'LIBERATE <state>!!!' tweets in light of 'his' own sobering guidance:
"
Well, I think we do have a sobering guidance, but I think some things are too tough. And if you look at some of the states you just mentioned, it’s too tough. Not only relative to this, but what they’ve done in Virginia with respect to the Second Amendment is just a horrible thing. They did a horrible thing — the governor. And he’s a governor under a cloud, to start off with.

So when you see what he said about the Second Amendment, when you see what other states have done — no, I think I feel very comfortable.
"

'look at'... 'thing thing thing'... he knows nothing (& 2nd amendment had NOTHING to do w/ anything, not that he knew any details there either)


this is a pattern, watch for it

--------

he knows basically nothing (beyond recalling vague news headlines) even on things he cares about (his grievances against foes)

on this deal he couldn't say a word, he can't even fake it as has no knowledge & hadn't heard Fox News talk about it
Habebe
Member
Sat Aug 15 11:58:04
"You just bring the light inside the body. The cancer can't take it."

Again, this is not that ridiculous. We routinely poison cancer patients to treat with chemicals that are very harmful to humans and literally kills our cells. Chemo is probably the number one treatment actually.

Also, specific wave lights have been shown in the lab to actually be safer than chemo and effective against viruses.
Habebe
Member
Sat Aug 15 12:00:30
He, "so, do you Trump people actually believe he has understandings of these deals? why is no one answering that"

I honestly think he has general knowledge of the deal. I also think it wouldn't have happened without him.
TJ
Member
Sat Aug 15 12:11:01
Could it have happened without Iran?

The rabbit hole is deep with historical Frenimes.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat Aug 15 12:15:24
"We routinely poison cancer patients"

Trump was not in some deep reflection about harming people to help them... he heard it worked on surfaces, so surely internally works the same... that was the 2 dots he connected


"I honestly think he has general knowledge of the deal"

he doesn't... he loves speaking & especially boasting... he couldn't say anything... he wouldn't even have to be answering the questions (although they seemed fairly basic if he was involved), he could've rambled in the general area of the topic like he does w/ other questions he can't answer, but he knew nothing at all on the subject


Habebe
Member
Sat Aug 15 12:16:55
Tj, Probably not. Unless there was some other great mutual enemy.

That said it also wouldn't have happened without Hitler either but I wouldnt guve him credit.
Habebe
Member
Sat Aug 15 12:18:13
Tw, What are you gling to do if Biden wins? Its very likely he will.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat Aug 15 12:24:04
this was in Trump's response when asked about Biden taking credit

"
And I saw where Sleepy Joe tried to claim credit for it, and I’m trying to figure out how that one works. No, what he did is they made a terrible deal with Iran. And the deal was a horror show, and I ended it. They gave them $150 billion for nothing. They gave them $1.8 billion in cash for nothing. They got nothing from that deal except trouble. They did nothing. They — just like they’ve been weak on China, they’ve been weak on Russia. They’ve been weak on everyone. And they were the weakest of all on Iran.

No, that was a great deal made by very talented people that work with me. And it’s been praised all over the world. And what you’ll see now is other countries will come into that deal, and you’ll have peace in the Middle East. And Biden doesn’t even know — he doesn’t even know the name of the countries I’m talking about.
"

& Trump doesn't know what countries he's talking about either, he ended the briefing there to make sure no one asked

note the Iran deal shit... he is still saying the same false 2-3 things he has ever said about it. He continues to show no understanding that it involved other countries (thus he didn't -end- it, just broke us from the deal in bad faith as he again disagreed w/ our own people & instead trusted Netanyahu)... plus we didn't 'give' them $150 billion (it was their own assets unfrozen) & it wasn't for nothing, & the cash had NOTHING to do with the deal.


he 'ended' that deal w/ only that wrong knowledge that he has said over & over from the start til now... he should've been yanked from office long ago
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat Aug 15 12:26:50
"What are you going to do if Biden wins?"

celebrate the end of the daily insult to intelligence

& possibly board up the windows until the Trump army is put down
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 15 12:34:49
TJ
The narrative Biden and Trump's writers are spinning is true - with efforts going back to Carter's Camp David accords and beyond.

But its not too interesting when Trump stays on script. The fun part is when he invariably dives off the deep end.
Habebe
Member
Sat Aug 15 12:37:05
Well, If it was unfrozen, that means we had possession of it.

Also if your going by that logic Biden doesn't know who his wife or his sister are.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat Aug 15 13:00:29
i don't understand the connection but Biden was referring to them when they were behind him & he got it wrong who was on the left & who was on the right... not like he was looking at them when he said it


& has Trump ever once said 'unfrozen' in the many many times he told this nonsense? he has specifically said we gave them money (even saying that he would've told them we didn't have the money as we were broke, don't recall quote, but clearly indicating we were paying them) or every other time just implies it

& why has he learned NOTHING new about the deal from when he was campaigning til now, not a single new complaint (even a false one)

& he managed to convince no other partner to join us in leaving... assuming he even understood other countries were in it, which never is clear when he talks about it
TJ
Member
Sat Aug 15 13:03:45
"The narrative Biden and Trump's writers are spinning is true"

There is a lot of deep end diving, more than normal, in an election year from both sides of the isle. It is a mass munch. Normalization is off the rails for either.
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 15 13:07:55
TJ
I do not accept normalizing the Trump administration by framing in a way that suggests all are equal.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat Aug 15 13:12:43
some Trump tweets:

"
The Democrats and President Obama gave Iran 150 Billion Dollars and got nothing...

President Obama made a desperate and terrible deal with Iran - Gave them 150 Billion Dollars plus I.8 Billion Dollars in CASH!...

Iran is going to buy 114 jetliners with a small part of the $150 billion we are giving them...but they won't buy from U.S., rather Airbus!
"

[he has never tweeted the word "unfrozen" in any context]

it was his rallies where he often brought this up, but not sifting thru those :p (i'm confident it was always a flat out saying we gave them money or just implying it... plus i'm confident he never said anything else about the deal [off prompter], always the same exact wrong things he's still saying today)

(plus 150 was a high-end estimate, not that that part makes much of a difference, but another thing Trump won't know)
Habebe
Member
Sat Aug 15 13:15:47
Semantics and a double standard.

So he didnt say unfrozen. Why? It takes away from his narrative.

Biden has said Trump wants tonmine the Grand Canyon. Which upon research has shown is false.

1. Trump never said he wanted to mine the GC. He opened the idea of mining in Obama era protected regions.

2. The actual mine is near the GC not in.

While I still personally oppose it Biden blatantly lied and misrepresented it. Bit again he is pushing a narrative and we get his point.
Habebe
Member
Sat Aug 15 13:18:40
Tw, The connection is that if he mixes up people he should be super familiar with what is to say he won't mix up SA and Iran?

You hold Trump to a much higher standard because you dislike him.
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Sat Aug 15 13:29:28
i assume/hope you don't see those as similar somehow... (the wife thing)

Trump actually acted on his Iran misinformation... we alone broke the deal w/o cause & he still has no clue about the deal

that's substantially different than campaigning spin (+ Trump does that lying orders of magnitude more than Biden or anyone else)

Biden will "hurt god" & "is against god" seems a bit worse & crazier than the grand canyon thing, and just a drop in the bucket
TJ
Member
Sat Aug 15 13:42:45
jergul
large member Sat Aug 15 13:07:55
TJ
I do not accept normalizing the Trump administration by framing in a way that suggests all are equal.

No surprise and I didn't say anything about equal. :D
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