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Utopia Talk / Politics / (OT) Nim
Paramount
Member
Tue Sep 15 10:19:34
Another member of SD has been exposed as a Nazi. Again! When the reporter wants to ask him a few questions he doesn’t know what to reply and is then running away like a jerk.

Lol. Look at the video Nim. Aren’t these guys supposed to be proud to be Aryans?

http://www...ivurm-i-dold-chatt-hell-seger/

You still gonna vote for SD?
Paramount
Member
Tue Sep 15 10:21:37
He later e-mailed the reporter and said that he is resigning.

LOL
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Sep 15 10:58:14
The way I see it, SD is under severe scrutiny. So, all the lunatics are quickly identified and kicked out. Unlike all the lunatics in the other parties, S, V and Mp in particular.

So thank you for showing me that SD is now 1 lunatic less, you have convinced me further. Also, I have convinced my wife to vote SD. I am pretty sure I can convince my sister, father and mother. Do you have any other good arguments for SD?
Paramount
Member
Tue Sep 15 11:05:55
” So, all the lunatics are quickly identified and kicked out. ”

But it never ends. There will be no one left in SD when everyone has been forced to resign for being a Nazi.
Nekran
Member
Tue Sep 15 11:42:59
Nimi is falling for the populist right wing trap?

Sadness... we don't agree on all sorts of topics (though we also do on plenty others), but I've always considered you better than that...

Not that I claim to have read their manifesto or anything, but if your values are described as "based on nationalism and social conservatism", I'm already cringing.

I would've liked to quickly learn a bit more, but alas the "english" link on their website only works for their general description...

What's their stance on drugs? I couldn't find it in a 5 second google search. Tends to be pretty negative for these sorts of parties. So considering you're not white and you vape pot, I wonder if you are not about to vote for people who would despise you if they knew you?

I could be wrong and I really don't know the Swedish political landscape at all... maybe they actually best represent your views. But I'm instinctively urging you to reconsider based on what I know, if admittedly little.
habebe
Member
Tue Sep 15 12:50:07
paramount, The largest party in Sweden is a Nazi party?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Sep 15 13:05:31
Nekran
It's actually rather difficult to answer your post politely.
Nekran
Member
Tue Sep 15 13:33:05
No need to be polite at all :-)
Paramount
Member
Tue Sep 15 13:33:41
Just like many other right-wing populists, has Nimatzo also started to have anger issues and difficulties to be polite?

Maybe stay off twitter for a while? Go out for a walk in the park? Breathe in some fresh air, relax, eat a cookie and give the breadcrumbs to the birds.
habebe
Member
Tue Sep 15 13:36:20
Wait, Is SD refering to Social or Swedish democrats?

I hadnt realized they were two.seperate parties.
Paramount
Member
Tue Sep 15 13:38:35
SD = Swedish Democrats
S = Social Democrats
Rugian
Member
Tue Sep 15 13:39:42
"Not that I claim to have read their manifesto or anything, but if your values are described as "based on nationalism and social conservatism", I'm already cringing."

Yeah, how DARE nimatzo believe in things like...uh...having pride in your country and opposing radical changes to society?

If those are beliefs that actually cause you to cringe, then wow.
habebe
Member
Tue Sep 15 13:41:40
Thank you. I was reading the article and thinking this is the from the.largest.party in Sweden!!

I couldnt imagine those comments from either democrat or Republican coming out without a firestorm.
Paramount
Member
Tue Sep 15 13:42:04
Hmm actually, Nim is still able to control his anger. He is demonstrating it by politely saying that it is difficult for him to answer politely.
Nekran
Member
Tue Sep 15 14:02:59
"If those are beliefs that actually cause you to cringe, then wow."

Glad to be able to wow you after all these years, but they most certainly do... I'm very much socially progressive and feel like social conservatism is usually about being against people who are different from you having the same rights you do. And yeah... I cringe at the vast majority of forms of nationalism by itself already.

Nationalism to me feels like people being tricked in feeling proud of some vague concept they've had little to no contribution to. A concept created to give the downtrodden something artifical to feel good about. You may be dirt poor and oppressed, but at least you're from *insert country*! Yay inserted country!

Now feeling pride in certain values or accomplishments of the place that you live is fine in and of itself... But once it isn't about things that actually matter, but only "our tribe, yay!", it is extremely cringe-worthy and a source of a lot of shitty events in history.

Nationalist parties also tend to be very exclusive about who is really part of the nation and who isn't, facts be damned.

But hey, I'm totally ready to be educated by Nimi about the party he intends to vote for. Even if the lesson is deliverd rather rudely.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Sep 15 14:04:12
Nekran
On the one hand you have not read anything about them you admit. You assume you understand my motivation, but also say I have "fallen for", something you know without agency and by accident or a trap. Then you appeal to my love of weed, because you or anyone else align perfectly with whomever you vote for or that this issue is highest on my agenda.

Your post is quite a mess.

This started with me telling Paramount that I was called up by a pollster. I don't vote, but I made a tiny contribution towards a signal by saying if there was an election now I would vote SD. Parmount called me a Nazi, so I promised him that I would now vote and vote SD.

For about 20+ years the established parties have denied there are any problems with immigration or that there is a connection between immigration and the type of violent crimes, organized crimes and sexual crimes. Until about a week ago, when the Swedish prime minister not only admitted this, but said "it is crystal clear". Really? Because for the past 20 years anyone who suggested such a thing would run the gauntlet and be called something something nazi. Too little too late.

I don't like people who are full of shit, until the house of cards collapse and then they tell you "I always knew this house of cards would collapse, it was crystal clear". So when I listen to the Swedish party leaders, the leader of SD, he seems to be least full of shit and lie the least. That goes a long way with me. Doesn't make him right on everything or that my views aligns with everything they say, but at least he isn't full of shit.
Paramount
Member
Tue Sep 15 14:06:56
” it is extremely cringe-worthy and a source of a lot of shitty events in history.”

Yes, nationalism has never led to anything good. It is a we-against-them mentality that always eventually leads to conflict and war.
Paramount
Member
Tue Sep 15 14:15:37
” the established parties have denied there are any problems with immigration or that there is a connection between immigration and the type of violent crimes, organized crimes and sexual crimes. Until about a week ago, when the Swedish prime minister not only admitted this, but said "it is crystal clear". Really?”


What he did say was that if there is a large immigration and if at the same time we fail to integrate immigrants into our society, *then* there is a connection between a large immigration and crime.

A large immigration per say does not mean a high crime rater per default.

So actually, what he was saying is that a failed integration leads to crime, and that that is crystal clear.
habebe
Member
Tue Sep 15 14:19:47
"
So actually, what he was saying is that a failed integration leads to crime, and that that is crystal clear."

IE the US......
Nekran
Member
Tue Sep 15 14:24:51
"You assume you understand my motivation, but also say I have "fallen for", something you know without agency and by accident or a trap."

I don't completely understand your sentence, but yeah... a lot of people get tricked into voting for our right wing populist assholes and I do tend to assume it is the same all over the world. Definitely an assumption that was proven wrong by the next bit though.

"This started with me telling Paramount that I was called up by a pollster. I don't vote, but I made a tiny contribution towards a signal by saying if there was an election now I would vote SD. Parmount called me a Nazi, so I promised him that I would now vote and vote SD."

That is acutually pretty funny. Not smart, I feel, but definitely funny :')

"Then you appeal to my love of weed, because you or anyone else align perfectly with whomever you vote for or that this issue is highest on my agenda."

A love we share. And while in and of itself not a very important issue to me either, I would never vote for a party that is actively against the legalisation. It shows a willingness to not care about science and fact and do the wrong thing, because you think it can help you get votes.

I sadly also do not align perfectly with any party in this country, but I have never voted for one that has something in their party program that I deem immoral. And yes, I do consider ignoring facts and science to mislead the public for your own advantage highly immoral. If you actively campaign against the harmless soft drugs of the world, you also have to be in favor of a ban on alcohol. Otherwise you are demonstrably shit. A person can merely be poorly informed, but a political party can not.

"For about 20+ years the established parties have denied there are any problems with immigration or that there is a connection between immigration and the type of violent crimes, organized crimes and sexual crimes. Until about a week ago, when the Swedish prime minister not only admitted this, but said "it is crystal clear". Really? Because for the past 20 years anyone who suggested such a thing would run the gauntlet and be called something something nazi. Too little too late."

If all true, which I definitely do believe, definitely worthy of shitting on and not voting for them. Ignoring or even downright denything the exicstence of very real problems has been the downfall of many left wing parties the past few decades.

I think the populist counterpart of blowing problems up way out of proportion to be able to blame "other people" for all the problems is worse still though. For clarity to all you douches, this happens on both sides of the political spectrum.

"I don't like people who are full of shit, until the house of cards collapse and then they tell you "I always knew this house of cards would collapse, it was crystal clear". So when I listen to the Swedish party leaders, the leader of SD, he seems to be least full of shit and lie the least. That goes a long way with me. Doesn't make him right on everything or that my views aligns with everything they say, but at least he isn't full of shit."

I doubt he's not full of shit, but the thought process is certainly justifiable. I stil think if he got an honest description of you though, he'd probably dislike you or worse.

I dare bet there are better options for you. Isn't the pirate party relevant in Sweden? Or is that well in the past by now? Either way... doubtlessly there is something better out there.

I do hope you convince your relatives on the basis of messing with Paramount rather than on the basis of what this party stands for though.

Also, that was a perfectly polite post.
Pillz
Member
Tue Sep 15 14:28:47
Jesus liberals are stupid
McKobb
Member
Tue Sep 15 14:55:10
Hahaha
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Sep 15 15:19:11
”I don't completely understand your sentence”

It’s because your post didn’t make sense to me, but the gist of it is that I don’t know what I am doing, I have been fooled like the ”other people”. Not that I or they are voting because we believe it is the right choice. Of course one could say this about anyone over anything. You have been fooled by the leftist media and satanist like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens to believe there is no god. Repent now and accept Jesus as your savior.

”populist assholes”

Jimmie Åkesson is the anti-thesis of Trump, he is a well spoken and polite person. He is no Bolsonaro or Hungarian Bolsonaro.

”I would never vote for a party that is actively against the legalisation”

That is virtually every party in Sweden, and the ones who are pragmatic, I couldn’t vote for them because virtually the only issue I would agree with them would be weed, maybe.

”It shows a willingness to not care about science and fact and do the wrong thing, because you think it can help you get votes.”

Again, virtually every party and every color has these types of scientific blind spots, it’s not just one wing. You have decided (?) that weed is the litmus test for anti-science, I see several far more important issue like denying genetic contribution to behavior in general and crime in particular, pick anything coming out of gender studies or feminist theory.

”I deem immoral”

I don’t deem SD’s party program or for that matter any other major Swedish party’s platform to be ”immoral”. Plenty of wrong, anti-science and stupid, dangerous denial.

”shitting on and not voting for them”

And there we go, that is _literally_ every party in the Riksdag, but SD. By your own logic SD is the only choice, should I consider to vote :)

”populist counterpart of blowing problems up way out of proportion to be able to blame”

And so in this world of denying problems and exaggerating them, my one vote goes towards the hope for balance.

”I doubt he's not full of shit, but the thought process is certainly justifiable. I still think if he got an honest description of you though, he'd probably dislike you or worse.”

I have seen enough to come to a different conclusion. He does not seem immoral or a nazi, he is a politicians and he argues for their platform. I have heard him on a podcast with an Iranian host. He seems like a perfectly civilized person, he is the winner of every debate because every counter argument lobbed at him ends with ”you guys are evil” (figuratively).

”there are better options for you”

Not convinced there is, I don’t even believe in this current version of democracy anymore. I find that every ideology is fundamentally stupid and flawed, but every ideology has something useful to contribute. Voting for SD is the closest I come to lighting a torch.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Sep 15 15:34:56
Parody
"What he did say was that if there is a large immigration and if at the same time we fail to integrate immigrants into our society, *then* there is a connection between a large immigration and crime."

Maybe you do not see what a huge concession this is and assuming this is where the road ends? What is happening Paramount is that Swedish immigration policy is harmonizing with those in Finland, Denmark and Norway. Unimaginable even 5 years ago that he would say crime has anything to do with immigration.

But yes you are correct, even this concession leaves much to be desired. Even in this concession, _we_ have failed to integrate "them". _Sweden_ needs to integrate immigrants, immigrants shouldn't come here with a strong desire to become part of the Swedish society. As I said, too little too late.
Paramount
Member
Tue Sep 15 18:04:12
” Unimaginable even 5 years ago that he would say crime has anything to do with immigration.”

But the gist of what he said was that if people end up outside society, it leads to crime. He was careful to say that immigration in itself does not automatically lead to crime.

I think we all know that politicians can change opinion and stance pretty quickly and sometimes unexpectly. He also said in 2015(?) that his Europe does not build walls. But then only weeks or months later Sweden (right or wrong) set up border control at the Öresund Bridge to prevent refugees from coming in to Sweden.

-

Sweden needs to integrate immigrants. Of course. I takes two to tango. Sweden has to create and offer means/ways for immigrants to be integrated. We can not invite thousands of immigrants into our country and then expect them to be Swedish at day one, to get a job, a house, to learn the language etc and so on. So naturally, if we invite people we also have a responsibility. My perception is also that integration has never been a real priority issue for either S or M. So it has become as it has become.

We have also seen increased class gaps in Sweden, which is probably the main reason for increased crime. We have poor neighborhoods, poor people who lives outside society. With it comes crime.


I also think you are either naive, ignorant or stupid, Nimnazo:

”Jimmie Åkesson is the anti-thesis of Trump, he is a well spoken and polite person. He is no Bolsonaro or Hungarian Bolsonaro”

Åkesson is smarter than Trump, but remember this: Åkesson joined SD when SD was an open Nazi party, when members were waving the Nazi flag. And if you look at the article that started this thread, the Nazi in SD who was now exposed writes that: ”The radical may take place behind closed doors”.

This is exactly what Åkesson thinks too. He is not so stupid that he will start to write Seig Heil in e-mails to his party colleagues. They don’t talk loud about their more radical views and opinions.

It is like the chain murders:

”the people on the top do not have to order every murder, torture and disappearing. Things take care of themselves.”

Things take care of themselves. Because everyone knows what everyone wants. They don’t need to say ”Sieg heil” or ”exterminate the Somalis”. Because they all know it already. Things will take care of itself when it is time.

Also, there is no other party in sweden except SD which for a long time and repeatedly has seen its members be exposed as nazis. No other party comes close.
Nekran
Member
Tue Sep 15 22:32:46
"Jimmie Åkesson is the anti-thesis of Trump, he is a well spoken and polite person. He is no Bolsonaro or Hungarian Bolsonaro."

Oh our local fascist bullshit party has taken the exact same approach. Gone is the thuggishness of the 90's. Now they are walking around in fine suits, congratulating our fringe commie party for their victory, only to berate everyone else for not congratulating them on theirs, of course. But this is the new face they are putting up and it's working... whereas your last post had me believe you weren't fooled, now you have me thinking the opposite once more. You know full well being polite doesn't make you not an asshole.

"You have decided (?) that weed is the litmus test for anti-science"

Not the litmus test. It's just such an obvious one that is often present in politics. Any ignoring of objective facts in favor of ideology is a big no-no for me.

"Not convinced there is, I don’t even believe in this current version of democracy anymore."

Now that I completely understand. I've been having a hard time voting the past decade or so myself. If only a better alternative would present itself.

"I find that every ideology is fundamentally stupid and flawed, but every ideology has something useful to contribute."

I do think all political parties are stupid and flawed and far too concerned with taking/keeping power than with actually improving things. Socialists opposed the female vote back in the day, purely because polls pointed out the majority of women would vote for the catholic party. That is the stuff of politics that disgusts me.

I don't think every ideology has something useful to contribute though.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Sep 16 04:48:32
"Sweden needs to integrate immigrants. Of course. I takes two to tango."

You are completely wrong. Immigrants need to integrate and integration goes far beyond getting a job and Learning the langauge, those things may helå faciliatet, but is far from a gurantee of any sorts. Unless you have a desire to become part of the new society, unless you are interested in something other than to be a muslim and spend all your free time at the local Somali club or Mosque, that isn't happening. I know plenty of people who have jobs, but who are not and will never be what you or I would consider assimilated or integrated, they are merely functional.

Not even my family and the group of Iranians that came during the late 80's are different in this regard. Just that the segregation was limited and the activities we engaged in with other Iranians, were things like having big parties and listening to Iranian pop Music, eating food. Things that did not in the end misalign with this culture and set up us kids to fail later on. It made it that much easier to actually integrate.

You may dismiss these things as unimportant, but I was never forbiden to eat pork or walk inside a Church, like the somalis that came after were. My parents did not set me up to be alienated further on and find Swedish society to be weird through out my teens and adulthood. It in these ways that different groups are significantlly differnt, while sharing the common initial alianation and homesickness.

"Åkesson joined SD when SD was an open Nazi party"

I have heard him explain the context and I am OK with his explanation. I don't believe in eternal sin like you do.

"It is like the chain murders:"

You clearly didn't understand that at all, not back then and not now:

"The moral of the story is that repressive structure that are large enough and highly institutionalized, the people on the top do not have to order every murder, torture and disappearing. Things take care of themselves."

The operative sentence being "repressive structure that are large enough and highly institutionalized"

"Because everyone knows what everyone wants."

Clearly you have not been paying attention, SD is actually quite a mess as far as cohesion on social policy goes. You have gay people organizing Pride parades in SD, while at the same time you have people who think homosexuality is "bad". Everyone doesn't want the same thing. SD isn't Russia or Iran or 1930's Germany.

"Also, there is no other party in sweden except SD which for a long time and repeatedly has seen its members be exposed as nazis. No other party comes close."

But they have no Islamists. So, there you go. Unlike you I am not married to any party, my vote, should I vote is as I have explained a signal and for balance. So, I can be aware of all the dirt in SD and still vote SD. You on the other hand are an ideolog and married to the Swedish left. You are on record for relativizing Islamists not shaking hands with women. You are completely oblivious to the intentions and reasons behind these, in your small little brain, benign gestures. I am certainly not obvlivious towards racist and the white Power people. One of us is plausibly using a very low level of brinksmanship, the other is a useful idiot.

http://www...&thread=76791&showdeleted=true

Anyway, be careful so you don't get gang raped.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Sep 16 04:58:45
Nekran
"Any ignoring of objective facts in favor of ideology is a big no-no for me."

We agree in principle, but as I explained I see many more such issues. And the priority I give them is always changing based on what I Believe is important at a given time. Right now, I believe the liberal leftwing has gone off the rails, for quite some time.

"I don't think every ideology has something useful to contribute though."

I should have said axis. I think all the axis, liberal, conservative, left and right have useful things to contribute.
Nekran
Member
Wed Sep 16 09:11:43
"And the priority I give them is always changing based on what I Believe is important at a given time. Right now, I believe the liberal leftwing has gone off the rails, for quite some time."

Sounds reasonable. Shame that there is no better alternative available though.

"I should have said axis. I think all the axis, liberal, conservative, left and right have useful things to contribute."

I do agree with that. There's gotta be some balance. Especially with politics being what it is.
Paramount
Member
Wed Sep 16 09:25:10
” my vote, should I vote”

I thought you were going to vote (for SD). Have you changed your mind again? Did I help you to reconsider?

And why wouldn’t you want to vote? You escaped from Iran to a free country where people can vote in a democratic election, and you don’t want to vote?


”You are on record for relativizing Islamists not shaking hands with women”

Lol, your world got destroyed because someone has an ”illegitimate reason”, according to you, to not greet someone else using a handshake. Bwahaha
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Sep 16 13:00:42
Long way to the election parody, lot’s of stuff can happen between here and now. If the election was today, you have my answer already.

”And why wouldn’t you want to vote?”

Mentioned why briefly in this thread and somewhat more in other threads. This system is set up to please no one and in a cumulative manner piss off everyone. If you look at this and think this is the best you can get, you are a slave and a moron.

The last paragraph was
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Sep 16 13:00:57
incomprehensible.
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