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Utopia Talk / Politics / Remember the Coup Plotters
chuck
Member
Wed Jan 06 08:21:44
Never Forget the Names of These Republicans Attempting a Coup

This time they’ll fail. But their disloyalty to America is clear.

By Thomas L. Friedman

---

The New Testament asks us in Mark 8:36: “For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, but lose his soul?”

Senators Josh Hawley, Ted Cruz, Ron Johnson and all their fellow G.O.P. coup plotters clearly have forgotten that verse — if they ever knew it — for they are ready to sacrifice their souls, the soul of their party and the soul of America — our tradition of free and fair elections as the means for peacefully transferring power — so that Donald Trump can remain president and one of these sleazebags can eventually replace him.

The governing “philosophy” of these unprincipled Trump-cult Republicans is unmistakably clear: “Democracy is fine for us as long as it is a mechanism for us to be in control. If we can’t hold power, then to hell with rules and to hell with the system. Power doesn’t flow from the will of the people — it flows from our will and our leader’s will.”

For America to be healthy again, decent Republicans — in office and in business — need to break away from this unprincipled Trump-cult G.O.P. and start their own principled conservative party. It is urgent.

Even if only a small group of principled, center-right lawmakers — and the business leaders who fund them — broke away and formed their own conservative coalition, they would become hugely influential in today’s closely divided Senate. They could be a critical swing faction helping to decide which Biden legislation passes, is moderated or fails.

Meanwhile, the Trump-rump G.O.P. cult would become what it needs to become for America to grow together again — a discredited, powerless minority of crackpots waiting around for Trump’s latest tweet to tell them what to do, say and believe.

I know that fracturing an established party is not easy (or likely). But the principled Republicans, those who have courageously and dutifully defended Joe Biden’s electoral victory, have to ask themselves: “In a few days, when all of this is over, are we going to just go back to business as usual with people who are, in effect, attempting the first legislative coup d’état in American history?”

Because when this episode is over, Trump will be doing or saying something else outrageous to undermine Biden and to make collaboration impossible, and the Trump lap dogs, like Cruz, Hawley, Johnson and House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, will be demanding the party go along to serve their political interests, putting the principled Republicans in a daily bind. Every week there will be a new loyalty test.

There is simply no equivalence now between our two major parties. In the primaries, an overwhelming majority of Democrats, led by moderate African-Americans, chose to go with the center-left Biden, not the far-left defund-the-police-democratic-socialist wing.

Across the aisle, Trump’s G.O.P. became such a cult that it decided at its convention that it would offer no party platform. Its platform would be whatever its Dear Leader wanted on any given day. When any party stops thinking — and stops drawing any redlines around a leader as unethical as Trump — he’ll keep taking it deeper and deeper into the abyss, right up to the gates of Hell.

Where it’s now arrived.

We saw that this weekend with Trump’s Mafia-like effort to squeeze Georgia’s secretary of state to just “find” him 11,780 votes and declare him the state’s winner by one vote over Biden.

And we will see it in an even uglier version in Wednesday’s session in Congress. The Trump cultists will try to transform a ceremony designed exclusively to confirm the Electoral College votes submitted by each state — Biden 306 and Trump 232 — into an attempt to get Congress to nullify the electoral votes of swing states that Trump lost.

If I were the editor of this newspaper, I’d print all of their pictures on a full page, under the headline: “Never Forget These Faces: These Lawmakers Had a Choice Between Loyalty to Our Constitution and to Trump, and They Chose Trump.”

If you have any doubts that these people are engaged in seditious behavior, their more principled Republican colleagues do not. Speaking of Hawley’s plan to challenge the vote count, Lisa Murkowski, the Republican senator from Alaska, said: “I am going to support my oath to the Constitution. That’s the loyalty test here.” Added Senator Ben Sasse of Nebraska, “Adults don’t point a loaded gun at the heart of legitimate self-government.” Said Senator Rob Portman of Ohio, “I cannot support allowing Congress to thwart the will of the voters.”

So, the coup-plotter caucus will fail. But ask yourself this: What if Trump’s allies controlled the House, the Senate and the Supreme Court and got their way — actually used some 11th-hour legislative maneuver and nullified Biden’s victory?

I know exactly what would have happened. Many of the 81,283,485 Americans who voted for Biden would have taken to the streets — I would have been one of them — and probably stormed the White House, the Capitol and the Supreme Court. Trump would have called out the military; the National Guard, directed by governors, would have split over this, and we would be plunged into civil war.

That is the sort of fire these people are playing with. Of course, they know it — which makes the efforts of Hawley, Cruz, Johnson and their ilk even more despicable. They have so little self-respect that they’re ready to lick the shine off of Donald Trump’s boots down to his last second in office, in hopes of inheriting his followers — should he not run again in 2024. And they are counting on a majority of their more principled colleagues voting to certify Biden’s election — to make sure their effort fails.

That way, they’ll get the best of all worlds — credit with Trump voters for pursuing his Big Lie — his fraudulent allegation that the elections were a fraud — without plunging us into civil war. But the long-term price will still be profound — diminishing the confidence of many Americans in the integrity of our free and fair elections as the basis for peacefully transferring power.

Can you imagine anything more cynical?

How do decent Americans fight back, besides urging principled Republicans to form their own party? Make sure we exact a tangible price from every lawmaker who votes with Trump and against the Constitution.

Shareholders of every major U.S. corporation should make sure that these companies’ political action committees are barred from making campaign contributions to anyone who participates in Wednesday’s coup attempt.

At the same time, “we the people” need to fight the Trump cult’s Big Lie with the Big Truth. I hope every news organization, and every citizen, refers to Hawley, Cruz, Johnson and their friends now and forever more as “coup plotters.”

Make all those who have propagated this Big Lie about election fraud to justify voting with Trump and against our Constitution carry the title — “coup plotter” — forever. If you see them on the street, in a restaurant on your college campus, politely ask them: “You were one of the coup plotters, weren’t you? Shame on you.”

Adopt Trump’s method: Repeat this Big Truth over and over and over until these people can never get rid of it.

It won’t be sufficient to fix what ails us — we still need a new conservative party for that — but it sure is necessary to give others pause about trying this again.
Paramount
Member
Wed Jan 06 08:56:00
”Make all those who have propagated this Big Lie about election fraud to justify voting with Trump and against our Constitution carry the title — “coup plotter” — forever. If you see them on the street, in a restaurant on your college campus, politely ask them: “You were one of the coup plotters, weren’t you? Shame on you.”


He basically wants people to confront Trump-supporters on the streets, in restaurants, and call them coup plotters and shame them, which will possibly lead to fights and killings (pogroms), and civil war.

Not that it is my business, but I’m going to ask Rugian this. Hey Rugian, you are one the coup plotters, aren’t you? Shame on you.
Rugian
Member
Wed Jan 06 09:02:56
Paramount

That is an effective way to get your face bashed in.
habebe
Member
Wed Jan 06 09:06:24
Lets not forget that 3 times in the last 20 years Democrats were the ones pulling such shenanigans.
sam adams
Member
Wed Jan 06 09:06:46
After screaming all sorts of bullshit for the last decade, journalists and other far-left nutbags are part of the problem. Trump, even as retarded as he is, is only half the problem.
chuck
Member
Wed Jan 06 11:33:36
> Paramount
> He basically wants people to confront Trump-supporters on the streets, in restaurants, and call them coup plotters and shame them

0/10 for reading comprehension Paramount. The passage you've quoted says the people who should be shamed over this are the ones who are using Trump's lies to justify their Jan 6th vote against certifying the Electoral College results, not Trump supporters generally or even Trump supporting politicians generally.

As for pogroms and civil war, that's just an Aerosian flight of fancy on your part. After the Civil War southern rebels were reintegrated into the US as opposed to being rounded up and shot, but their actions followed them and had reprecussions for their reputations, their ability to hold elective office, etc. Taking "we cannot treat this very specific, morally bankrupt behavior like a passing sex scandal that is forgotten with the next news cycle" as "exterminate Trump supporters" is not a valid reading of the text.

---

> Rugian
> [Holding elected officials accountable] is an effective way to get your face bashed in.

> Also Rugian
> Only the left feels entitled to engage in political violence.

Autocorrect changes your name to Tiguan. This is poetically fitting because like a VW, your emissions do not line up with your claims about what you emit.
jergul
large member
Wed Jan 06 12:02:26
I am mighty impressed by quite a number of republicans.
habebe
Member
Wed Jan 06 12:16:15
Again, this is nothing new. Democrats did the same shit to Trump and twice IIRC to GWB.
jergul
large member
Wed Jan 06 12:20:51
What is it with Trumpicans and false equivalency?

Just own the shitshow. Have the power of your insane convictions.
habebe
Member
Wed Jan 06 12:22:13
What is the false equivelancy?

What os it with the left thinking they are without sin?
Paramount
Member
Wed Jan 06 12:27:22
Chuck,

Okay, so he is only talking about Cruz, Hawley, Johnson and some other republicans? Okay. But he is also talking about the ”Trump cult” and their Big Lie. To me, all those who are propogating that there was an election fraud and claims that Trump won the election, are a part of the Trump Cult. And they most likely supports Cruz, Hawley and Johnson (the people who should be named Coup plotters), so why not name every Trump Cultist a Coup Plotter.
werewolf dictator
Member
Wed Jan 06 12:27:45
house members did in 2001

2005 house members + senator barbara boxer

2017 house members again



besides.. even if successful objections made in disputed states then all that the "coup plotters" want is 10 day audit.. after which states may go to biden anyway

and none of them expect even that to happen.. so its political theatre and no coup attempt


"diminishing the confidence of many Americans in the integrity of our free and fair elections as the basis for peacefully transferring power."

riiiight.. with conspiracy theorists like bidens proposed omb director neera tanden pushing conspiracy theory that russia tampered with vote tallies in 2016 leading to two-thirds of democrats believing same.. how dare anyone question integrity of free and fair elections..


you want to see real coups then try bidens deputy sec of state choice in "yats is our guy" call.. or clinton and west's support of yeltsin in 1993



i file this in dumb thoughts by thomas l friedman.. like still thinking iraq war was a good or that mbs is master saudi reformer.. or pretty much everything else he ever said or wrote
habebe
Member
Wed Jan 06 13:04:25
wwd, See, when Democrats push insane conspiracy theories like Everyone is a russian puppet, vast rightwing conspiracy, GWB stole an election, Kamalla and her anti vaxxer nonsense...etc

It's reasonable to most Democrats and they buy into it and think anyone who doesn't is the crazy one.
chuck
Member
Wed Jan 06 13:36:41
> Paramount
> so why not name every Trump Cultist a Coup Plotter.

You can if you like. My point is that the author has not, and that this is original thinking on your part. From the bit you quoted originally, emphasis mine:

> Make all those who have propagated this Big Lie about election fraud **to justify voting with Trump and against our Constitution** carry the title — “coup plotter” — forever.

I see how you could read that emphasized part more broadly than what I consider the meaning, which given the context of the I read as "to consider [their own] voting [in the Jan 6 procedural vote the article is talking about]" given authors repeated explicit mention of Hawley and Cruz by name. I can see where you could also interpret it as those people plus the right wing media personalities giving them cover for that action, but if that were the case I think Hannity et all or the media in general would warrant explicit mention.

I feel he makes this clearer elsewhere:

> The Trump cultists will try to transform a ceremony designed exclusively to confirm the Electoral College votes submitted by each state — Biden 306 and Trump 232 — into an attempt to get Congress to nullify the electoral votes of swing states that Trump lost.

I feel this makes clearer his beef is with the Jan 6th plotters since he's attributing a specific action to them, not saying "and of course, 70-some million cultists will be watching along on Fox News."
chuck
Member
Wed Jan 06 13:37:58
*et al, damn autocorrect

*also all the other typos
Paramount
Member
Wed Jan 06 13:50:54
Yes, that does make it clearer who his beef is with.
habebe
Member
Wed Jan 06 14:12:34
Ive always preffered the term Putsch to coup.

This shit show reminds me of that scene from Rome.

Marc Antony:You (Brutus) should go be a grain monitor.

Brutus:Why would I do that? I have all the men of quality.

Marc Antony: And I have an angry mob who will roast and eat your men of quality on the Senate floor
patom
Member
Wed Jan 06 14:19:46
Habebe, please enlighten me as to when the Dems have pulled anything remotely resembling the invasion of the Capital building. Incited an invasion of the Capital House and Senate chambers. Are you watching this shit?????
habebe
Member
Wed Jan 06 15:13:00
Tom, I just started seeing that.I was reffering to BLM this summer where they burnt cities and medical tents, murdered etc.

But the Capitol building is new, as far as I remember at least.
chuck
Member
Wed Jan 06 20:07:08
Roger Marshall getting in on it.
patom
Member
Wed Jan 06 20:34:10
habebe. Are you sure the BLM protestors burnt cities or were the looters and arsonists just plain looters and arsonists who didn't really give a fuck and were just taking advantage of that situation?
obaminated
Member
Wed Jan 06 20:54:35
chuck is suddenly scared of thousands of people getting upset about the status quo. you fool.
habebe
Member
Wed Jan 06 21:15:06
Tom, It's possible, perhaps that was the case today, perhaps Biden was actually telling the truth when he said he has formed the largest fraud orginizations of all time.

What's more plausible is that biden mispoke as he does, and blm rioters were angry and lost control because they are mixed in with commie thugs.
chuck
Member
Thu Jan 07 00:40:20
Ted Cruz
Josh Hawley
Cindy Hyde-Smith
John Kennedy
Roger Marshall
Rick Scott
Tommy Tuberville

^ the ones who went through with it so far and already earned their shame. Probably the ones who were going to do it but realized the validity of the election certification was fixed by the storming of the Capitol and therefore no longer needed to be objected against deserve their fair share of scorn too.

Too many to remember in the HoR. Eternally shaming those schmucks probably needs to be delegated to each state's citizens as a matter of practicality.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jan 07 05:45:14
"After the Civil War southern rebels were reintegrated into the US as opposed to being rounded up and shot"

In hindsight, this was a huge mistake. Allowing the losers of a moral battle to keep living in their bubbles, raising and worshiping statues of the losers, sulking for 180 years and coalescing around a victim-hood culture.
Seb
Member
Thu Jan 07 07:41:05
Nim:

Didn't you used to say it was wrong to call these people fascist?
patom
Member
Thu Jan 07 07:44:54
Habebe, "It's possible, perhaps that was the case today, perhaps Biden was actually telling the truth when he said he has formed the largest fraud orginizations of all time."

Do you mean Biden was saying that he himself formed a fraud org.? Surely you can't be that numb.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jan 07 08:34:31
Seb

Not everything here is directed at you, for obvious reason, a good chunk of it is a summary of my feelings and position.

I am not calling anyone a fascist. I am not even saying they should have rounded up and shot every rebel, just all their leaders. This "reintegration" amounted to what I wrote. They should have been crushed and eradicated. Not a lot of statues of old Nazis.? They hung them all and slapped everyone in the face if they brought it up again. In the USA they gathered around the victim-hood narrative of "the lost cause". If only things had been different. If only. 180 years of feeling robbed for what was ultimately a "good cause", muddied with "state rights" and whatever.

My point is, we don't want to repeat this in 2021. Exile Trump to the Aleutians. Whoever in the GOP supported this needs to join him. Ban his lineage for 7 generation from holding public office or sit on the board of a public company. Raise all the buildings carrying his name to the ground, salt the earth they stood on.

I am being hyperbolic, but the lay of the land should be explained in no uncertain terms to these people, heads should roll, consequences should be harsh. No one should walk away from this thinking this can be repeated without incurring some serious costs. Millions of Trumpicans should not go for decades sulking in the "fraudulent election" narrative. We were robbed!

I have been talking about inevitable calamity for at least 3 years. Over the last year I have joined a chorus of people warning, that at every turn, every week, people in power are making decisions and saying things that lead us closer to a conflagration, not further away.

Look at what they tried to do. They tried to break everything they could on their way out.

In summary 2021 has started off even worse than 2020 did. That shouldn't have been possible.
Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 07 08:57:02
Nim

I'm sure the murderers of Tiberius Gracchus also thought they were merely committing a one-off act to deal with an especially egregious politician.

If you had your way, all that would be accomplished is a normalization of the idea that election losers should face legal retribution as a consequence for their loss.

Trump being exiled in 2021 means Biden being exiled in 2025, means Ivanka being exiled in 2033. And so on.

That is not a door you want to open.
Nekran
Member
Thu Jan 07 09:06:59
He's not hypothetically being exiled for losing, he's hypothetically being exiled for trying to subvert the democratic process instead of accepting his loss.
Rugian
Member
Thu Jan 07 09:08:16
Nekran

That's not how his adherents will see things.
Nekran
Member
Thu Jan 07 09:26:26
Their detachment from reality is not something the rest of society can really take into account.
Nekran
Member
Thu Jan 07 09:27:42
I did love your implication that Ivanka would win 2 terms and would run for a 3rd though btw.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jan 07 09:39:29
That is on them and the cult they have trapped themselves in. Too bad, a shame, what do you want me to tell to feel better?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jan 07 09:39:51
^To Rugian.
Paramount
Member
Thu Jan 07 09:41:51
” That is not a door you want to open”

Why not? Trump and his people has already opened the door to where you crap on the election result and storm the Congress.

That’s the door you wanted to open.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Jan 07 10:03:55
"moral battle"

The Civil War wasn't a battle of morals.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Jan 07 10:08:36
Also lol @ sUbVeRt ThE dEmOcRaTiC pRoCeSs

He fought in court, and via every legal means he had available to him to recount/inspect/overturn a handful of states he views, justly or unjustly, as being stolen from him. He did it until 11:59, and when the last gasp was put out last night with the final certification, he immediately released a concession calling for a smooth transition.

Detachment from reality. That's ironic.
Paramount
Member
Thu Jan 07 11:03:48
I just thought about something. Can’t we call these ”coup plotters” and the people who stormed the Congress freedom fighters? Think about it, all they want is freedom. Freedom to choose their own leader, etc.

Just like the freedom fighters who stormed the parliament in Hong Kong – they were brave freedom fighters in the eyes of the U.S. So the American coup plotters must be brave freedom fighters too? Is it possible that we have missunderstood them and Trump?
jergul
large member
Thu Jan 07 11:16:48
Freedom fighters is a bit ambivalent.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jan 07 11:44:47
Some people seem to be under the impression that you can’t subvert a legal process, legally. And that these attempts legal or not do not have other costs attached to them.

This is the same person who was just a few weeks ago was arguing with Jergul about government overreach and the judiciary ruling in the governments favor every time. It’s all legal, nothing to see here folks!

Forwyn I am looking at you.

Are frivolous lawsuits a thing in the USA? The fact that we both can parse and understand that concepts on it’s own unravels everything you say.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Jan 07 11:58:51
Asking a judge to review voter records is not subversion.

Asking a judge to review if existing law was followed when expanding mail-in voting systems is not subversion.

Asking a judge if votes that missed deadlines should be allowed is not subversion.

He put up the shots, and missed.

Screeching about coups and subversion is just that, screeching.

"ruling in the governments favor every time"

Notice the defendants weren't, "The Voters"? This is an especially bad tie-in. A campaign suing a Secretary of State or election dept is not an overreach issue. Extra scrutiny is hardly an issue of freedom.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jan 07 12:05:57
Yes they are when you know don’t have a case. In this case when Trump knows he didn’t win. He knows it. If he doesn’t, you basically have a deluded maniac trying to use the law to warp reality to fit his delusion. In both cases, for the rest of us, these are attempts by people with varying degrees of cognitive dysfunction trying to subvert democracy.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Jan 07 12:13:31
Deluded maniac is probably a fair summation.

It can be jarring to see your leads dissipate while official counting is done for the night. His failure to understand the ratios of mail-in votes, or that states have ultimate authority to certify however they like, or that they can accept votes from dogs, or none at all, shows his basic misunderstanding of our process. I warned about his fundamental lack of knowledge, and lack of interest in shoring that up, during the primaries in 2016.

He thinks he won. He put up the challenges that he could in the timeframe allowed. The election is certified, and he has conceded.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jan 07 12:21:52
So what do you call it when a deluded maniac who is the president, is incapable of realizing he lost, using perfectly legal means to keep being president against the vote of the people? To anyone observing, you are undermining democracy.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Jan 07 12:27:29
Extra scrutiny is not subversion. And last I checked, it's not Jan 20.
Wrath of Orion
Member
Thu Jan 07 12:29:00
Anyone that thinks Trump actually believes he won is an irredeemable retard.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Jan 07 12:41:38
There are millions of low-info Boomers who believe there was a concerted effort to steal the election, primarily through a handful of Democrat-controlled cities.

You're giving Trump the benefit of the doubt here? lol
Wrath of Orion
Member
Thu Jan 07 12:50:25
No need for the benefit of any doubt. It has been obvious from the start this entire election fraud bullshit has been a dog and pony show for him. He's looking to capitalize on the retardation and delusions of his cultists.

As I said, anyone who doesn't get that is an irredeemable retard. Congrats.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Jan 07 12:53:14
Lol. A proven retard with a circle of retards insulating his claim, could never really believe the claim.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jan 07 12:58:43
It doesn't matter Forwyn, I will gladly give him the same benefit of doubt you do, he is deluded. We agree on the most central aspect of. And that context is what makes "extra scrutiny" it subversive to the everyone outside the Trump warp bubble. Because 81 million people, in fact judging by the rift within the Republican party, far more people, are watching this deluded maniac use the law to nullify the election result.

You don't want to call that, subversion, i.e undermining the democratic institutes of the country? It is a strange hill to want to die on considering we seem to agree on everything material.
Wrath of Orion
Member
Thu Jan 07 12:59:22
Plenty of staffer leaks have come out of him knowing he lost, etc. His "stop the fraud" fundraising funnels a large chunk toward a PAC so he can control the money for future plans. He put together the most incompetent legal team ever seen to try to "save" his election "win."

The list goes on and on. But as I said...irredeemable retard.
habebe
Member
Thu Jan 07 13:02:22
"He put together the most incompetent legal team ever seen to try to "save" his election "win.""

Woo is actually correct on this. Rudy shouldn't be allowed of his retirement villagenin Fla , let alone running a legal defense team.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Jan 07 13:29:05
"We agree on the most central aspect of. And that context is what makes "extra scrutiny" it subversive to the everyone outside the Trump warp bubble."

Ah. It's subversion if I like the declared results and don't like someone challenging those results in a handful of states based on narrow issues?

habebe was correct to bring up chads; challenges are mounted a couple times a generation. Sometimes they have merit; sometimes they don't. To arbitrarily call a meritless challenge "subversion" is a leap.

There were issues. Most were explained by human error, not intentional malfeasance or technical errors. Probing those issues in the window between the election and the certification is not outside the bounds of normalcy. Only the screeching differentiates it.
Dakyron
Member
Thu Jan 07 19:10:23
"habebe was correct to bring up chads; challenges are mounted a couple times a generation. Sometimes they have merit; sometimes they don't. To arbitrarily call a meritless challenge "subversion" is a leap. "

Gore ended his challenges when the USSC ruled against him. He did not try to coerce fake electors, call rioters to attack the capital, and claim the election was fake.

He did, or his supporters did, claim the election was stolen, and whined about Diebold for years.
Habebe
Member
Thu Jan 07 19:39:46
Im fairly drunk, but I dont remember bringing up hanging chads.

I think I was referencing electoral certification challenges.Which Dems did twice for GWB and for Trump...but now its unprecedented somehow because Republicans questioned certifying votes....
habebe
Member
Thu Jan 07 19:49:46
Im drunk ATM , But I I dont think I brought up chats ( hanging Chads) I meant to reference CHAZ the 3 week communist state in WA.
Cherub Cow
Member
Thu Jan 07 21:05:58
Thanks be to the Founders for not employing logic as corrupt as Nimatzo’s scorched earth desires for Trump. It sounds like Augustus’ proscriptions — or Palpatine, “for a safe and secure society”. Though, to Augustus’ credit, after he killed all of his detractors and watered down the senates of the Roman provinces with loyalist senators, he did have a long and prosperous dictatorship. Perhaps a dictatorship is what a republic needs after all?

It’s also telling how strong the DNC narrative is that this sedition narrative still flies. The GOP really did lose the propaganda game by letting the DNC control so many information outlets. Nim even thinks that legal challenges are against the law, which was a CNN narrative. That’s impressive doublethink, and it’s a credit to the lizard people that they sold it so well to not just low level but medium level discourse followers as well.
Dukhat
Member
Thu Jan 07 21:15:20
*yawn* ^ What youtube and social media's recommendation algorithm does to a person's brain.
Wrath of Orion
Member
Thu Jan 07 21:33:00
"but now its unprecedented somehow because Republicans questioned certifying votes...."

Same rhetoric from Retard Rod 2.0 that is just as wrong now as it was over the last two months.
Habebe
Member
Thu Jan 07 21:39:16
Democrats challenged electoral certification, these are facts.
Wrath of Orion
Member
Thu Jan 07 22:00:37
It's the details you conveniently ignore over and over. You are just stuck in these loops of bullshit and delusion fed to you by your cultist pals.
Wrath of Orion
Member
Thu Jan 07 22:02:08
I mean, people had been bombing other people for a long time prior to WWII, so it's fucking retarded to call the nuclear weapons dropped on Japan unprecedented. Right Retard Rod 2.0?
Forwyn
Member
Thu Jan 07 22:21:19
When you already had shit like Dresden, and 70mil+ dead, you can call it unique, but bitching and whining about it is about as retarded as calling Boomers on the Senate floor a coup.
Habebe
Member
Thu Jan 07 22:41:22
Woo, In the specific context that people were outraged and didnt think our democracy would.be the same because Senators questioned the certification of the electors.

Which happened twice for GWB and for Trump.This is a fact.

I get that your sort of retarded, but feel free to express your opinion by adding context as to why Republicans questioning the confirmation is any different than the last 3 times.

Habebe
Member
Thu Jan 07 22:43:01
Again to clarify I was not refererencing the protest. But the actions of US Senators in that earlier post.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jan 08 03:46:10
Cherub Cow
MemberThu Jan 07 21:05:58


Thank you and the legion of useful idiots, prepared to soften the repeated blows to the head that Trump has delivered to your country, by finding ever diminishing nuance and silver lining in everything he does.

”Nim even thinks that legal challenges are against the law”

Stop embarassing yourself.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jan 08 04:38:51
Nimatzo
"Some people seem to be under the impression that you can’t subvert a legal process, legally. And that these attempts legal or not do not have other costs attached to them."


cherub cow
"Nim even thinks that legal challenges are against the law"

I am pretty sure this is a concern with BLM. They wanted to >legally< undermine the Police.

Are we living in the same world where "legalized corruption" is a concept, where companies find LEGAL loopholes that undermines the tax base, where companies lobby lawmaker LEGALLY to undermine regulation, where we have ethics violations that are "legal", but unethical (They undermine the office or institute in question). These things erode trust, that is a secondary cost.

100+ million people in your country have watched in shock and dismay as some unprecedented shit took place on live TV. I bet they all appreciate the calm and collected manner you are now explaining, nothing to see here folks, it was all legal, besides a little extra scrutiny never hurt anyone!

Like putting lipstick on the pig, after the pig was done with the raping.


jergul
large member
Fri Jan 08 05:42:50
Its easily imaginable how the election could have been subverted legally.

Say the uncounted electoral votes had been taken by the terrorists.

This could have lead to congress deciding that Trump should be the next president of the United States.
Paramount
Member
Fri Jan 08 06:19:06
Imagine what would have happened in the members of Congress didn't flee and hide when the mob arrived? I barely can't imagine it but based on what I have heard the members of Congress would have been lynched. Hanged with ropes from the ceiling. Some might have been raped. This was the goal of the mob that Trump incited.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jan 08 09:05:01
The meta in the Trump apologia is that we should treat every disaster Trump has delivered as an isolated incident. This is the only way you can give him the benefit of doubt, when you pretend you are not aware that this recent doodoo, is the latest in a huge cluster of dingle berries Trump has created.
chuck
Member
Fri Jan 08 14:36:18
Nimatzo: Good point about stepping back to consider the common pattern. Good to keep perspective.

---

The Trump apologists are not having good faith discussions about what is happening any more. If his supporters storming the Capitol is permissible, something to be handwaved away with "not so bad" or "this looks bad, but <several paragraphs about how it isn't really bad>", nothing can alarm them or change their minds.

Instead of having a set of a priori morals, observing events, and then picking a reaction based on their morals and what happened, the Trump apologists have committed to an a priori reaction ("not that bad") and as events occur they update their moral position to fit their pre-decided reaction. If Trump called for the military to rally around him rather than leaving office on the 20th, it would be another day of no-big-deal-nothing-to-see-here because "well, I'll grant this is unconstitutional and that we are a constitutional republic, but we all know won't succeed so I don't see the big fuss."

The Trump cultists put up a fucking gallows in front of the Capitol and then stormed the Capitol. Here's a sampling of the reactions of UPers:

Cherub Cow: "they really just wanted to talk to someone, it's not their fault they've become misguided" (note: not even conceding that they are misguided)
Rugian: "GO GO GO"
TJ: "I heard it was mostly antifa"
Habebe: "He is the most entertaining president ever"
Forwyn: "lots of people trespass"
Kargen: "this is exactly the same as the looters this summer in every meaningful way"

The posts they've made were only made to downplay the event that happened (except Rugian's, which were cheering it all on). If Trump had an ounce of competence in his being and was able to pull off what he clearly yearns to do - stay in power beyond his term - they would downplay that too. "Lots of Presidents have served more than four years", "I'll agree this isn't great, but I think there are upsides you are missing", "I am 100% positive that George Floyd wouldn't have relinquished power either, and liberals wish he was President."

And if anybody feels otherwise, it's "gimme a break, enough with the Orange Man Bad!"
chuck
Member
Fri Jan 08 14:38:21
* "it's not their fault >>IF<< they've become misguided."
Dakyron
Member
Fri Jan 08 14:55:14
There are at least 8 homes with Trump flags in the neighborhood, two of which had been taken down post-election and then brought back out on the 6th.
TJ
Member
Fri Jan 08 15:53:45
"TJ: "I heard it was mostly antifa""

lulz
chuck
Member
Fri Jan 08 16:05:23
http://www...ion/coronavirus-democracy.html
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jan 09 05:27:17
TJ
I am glad we can all laugh at the antifa false flag explanation now, when the identity of the insurrectionists have been established and their ties to various rightwing and white power movements have emerged. lulz indeed :)


Chuck
I feel for the nominally not-Trump-supporters trying to do the post mortem so they deliver the ”good” news, the silver lining in every mushroom cloud. When you do it long enough, it feels like an extreme move, to abandon the position, you find you have inevitably made invesments into it. A sunk cost trap. Or another way to put it, when you have been living too close to the warp field, you will get it twisted.
Seb
Member
Sat Jan 09 07:42:52
Nim:

I'm just saying, turns out that actually, a bunch of trump supporters and trump pretty much are a souped up 1920s/early 1930s style fascist.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jan 09 07:59:32
I never doubted that fascist and actual nazis and racists are found on, I will go further, the right. Just like many nominal socialist/communist voting Biden. The lesser of two evils approach to voting. I have objected to and still do, to reducing everyones motivation to the extremes.

Both sides have shown rather lack luster ability to control the maniacs within them. I thought the left was worse at this, because 1930-40s forced the right to deal with its’ crazies in a way the left never had to, not even after the fall of the Iron curtain. I was wrong, the right wing of politics doesn’t have herd immunity towards the insanity among themselves.
TJ
Member
Sat Jan 09 10:11:22
Chuck and Nim:

TJ
Member Thu Jan 07 11:22:25
There is no end to imagination. Everything considered that is a good thing.

There shouldn't be a need to explain why all things considered, imagination is a good thing.

No one will find me saying anything about who breached the Capitol. You and Chuck plucked that from another poster.

My single word "Success" post was me confirming the first copy/past in this post. Nothing that happened in DC is acceptable or funny.

All of them, as I stated previously in that thread should face several different charges.

I'm not a man of violence, never have been and never will be, everyone in this forum should well know that to be true. I don't wish anyone dead to be clear.

It is my position that everyone needs to exercise restraint and not let there imaginations run wild. Too much emotion and bias confuses the critical thought process. If you find me typing antifa in that thread I'll send 100 bucks to Crawler. My mind is very much in tune and current. Context is a winner.
Cherub Cow
Member
Mon Jan 11 05:19:38
[Paramount]: "He basically wants people to confront Trump-supporters on the streets, in restaurants, and call them coup plotters and shame them, which will possibly lead to fights and killings (pogroms), and civil war."

I had a conversation with someone on Imgur who really did want to have reeducation and pogroms for GOP voters ([aiuta219]: "I'm not saying pogroms and reeducation camps might be required, just that they'd be USEFUL." http://imgur.com/gallery/YlDb15T ).

It didn't stop there; even after the gravity of advocating for that was discussed with him (its history with Jewish people), he doubled down. Needless to say, this same person had been programed by media..
- to also refer to all of the people at the Capitol Building as "terrorists" and/or insurrectionists,
- to believe that there would be no consequences for the people who broke into the building (part of the "white privilege" lie that has been circulating social media)
- that violence against the government necessarily means that the government should become more violent against its citizens
- to believe that his media source is the truth and others represent only lies
- to believe that Middle America is composed entirely of religious fanatics in mega tents (the "True Detective" version of America)

It seems part and parcel to the idea of a one-party government of the United States. You hear that from the low level discourse calls to end the Electoral College. Their assumption is that the GOP could not win without it. If that's the case, then the DNC would always win (or for the foreseeable future).

Do they want a one-party system? Yes, they actually do — if it's their party. Do they know that that means authoritarian rule? If they do, they relieve themselves from cognitive dissonance by saying that the rest of the United States needs to be ruled in such a way. The discourse saves them from the implication that their way is tyranny, because *their* Caesar will only punish *their* enemies. Naturally, this comes from a party which has pushed for cancellations, retribution, and lists of opposition members. And now, with the media apparatuses fully commandeering social media platforms, shutting down their opposition to secure a monopoly, purging even the moderate dissenting voices from their platforms, who has the power to reason against a scorched-earth policy? The list has gotten frighteningly short.
patom
Member
Mon Jan 11 11:34:59
Has anyone seen Ted Cruz lately? Is he socially distancing himself from Josh Hawley?
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