Utopia Talk / Politics / Impeachment / 25th / Resignation

Rugian Member	Fri Jan 08 07:02:29 WSJ has called for Trump to resign Several impeachment filings made...the House is in recess for the rest of Trump's term, but Pelosi could recall if she wanted A few Rs calling for impeachment / removal...doesn't seem like the party as q whole is on board though 25th doesn't seem likely if it hasn't already happened Trump called into the RNC yesterday and was cheered by the crowd ---- What are the odds the swamp takes out Trump prior to the 20th?
jergul large member	Fri Jan 08 07:46:08 He will be impeached, but not convicted within 12 days if he does not resign. The interesting thing about conviction is that he can be barred future office and from creating 2024 havoc for GOP candidates. The Senate trial could imaginably continue after the Biden inaguration. I agree that the 25th is not likely. Trump should resign in exchange for a pardon. I give that a 25% chance. So 25% chance of resignation 75% chance of impeachment. 140k jobs lost last month, so at least we know many of the terrorists did not have to take time off work.
Rugian Member	Fri Jan 08 07:58:38 Rs voting to remove would be a double-edged sword. On the one hand, you do take him out of the running in 2024. On the other hand, good luck convincing the base that you're not part of the swamp after casting that vote. I guess itd be a calculated risk. How long do they think Trump will continue to hold influence over GOP voters after he leaves office.
Rugian Member	Fri Jan 08 08:11:00 I do feel like Dems have already overplayed their hand somewhat. Pelosi and Schumer demanding "invoke the 25th or we impeach" comes off as blackmail and is unlikely to be well received across the aisle. The impeachment filings that have been made so far are also rabidly partisan.
hood Member	Fri Jan 08 08:14:44 Demanding accountability for someone who incited sedition is "rabidly partisan" these days.
obaminated Member	Fri Jan 08 08:22:20 how did he call for sedition? we got rigged elections and he called it out and people are responding. that is called patriotism
Rugian Member	Fri Jan 08 08:26:23 Hood Maybe you learn to shut the fuck up when you clearly don't know what you're talking about. Any charges of impeachment that star with "muh Russia" and proceeds to whine about the USPS is partisan, yes.
jergul large member	Fri Jan 08 08:41:41 Ruggy Pence is positioning himself for 2024. He cannot alienate the base by going with the 25th. I also have to say I find the 25th questionable. But the cabinet should definately be prepped to pull that trigger for a kneejerk response to crazy like Trump ordering something nuked. Best outcome for Trump is a resignation followed by a pardon before an impeachment begins. It lets him keep control of the GOP.
Dakyron Member	Fri Jan 08 08:50:59 One of the capital police officers died this morning, so I think impeachment, if it can be done fast enough, is reasonable and warranted. You would only need 2/3rds of the Senate, which is much less pro-Trump than the house. I give it 50/50 if Pelosi moves fast enough.
Dakyron Member	Fri Jan 08 08:51:23 And of course if Trump does anything else crazy over the weekend then he is definitely being removed.
Rugian Member	Fri Jan 08 08:57:07 Is Pence in a pardon-giving mood though? Nixon didn't leave office by throwing Gerald Ford under the bus and then sending a mob after him. "You would only need 2/3rds of the Senate, which is much less pro-Trump than the house." That, what, 19 GOP senators that you'd need? Seems like a high hurdle.
Dakyron Member	Fri Jan 08 09:05:00 I count 6 that we can be reasonably sure would vote to impeach(Romney, Rubio, Collins, Lee, Paul). So 13 more?
Dakyron Member	Fri Jan 08 09:05:18 I guess that is only 5, so 14 more.
Rugian Member	Fri Jan 08 09:15:03 Murkowski called out Trump. Sasse has actually said he'd consider impeachment. Cotton, maybe?
patom Member	Fri Jan 08 09:37:08 He should be charged with sedition. In a court of law. No plea bargain. If he is allowed to bow out like Nixon he will linger and cause as much problems as he can.
hood Member	Fri Jan 08 09:46:18 "we got rigged elections" No. "Rugian Member Fri Jan 08 08:26:23" All I hear is traitorous warbling whenever you speak, so I'm going to assume you are again a traitor to the state and dismiss offhand whatever nonsense you're sputtering about.
jergul large member	Fri Jan 08 09:49:49 Daky The Senate trial can take place after jan 20th. Its been done to federal judges. 67-50-5=9 more. The question in balance is who wants Pence to be the next GOP presidential candidate. Are there 9 of them?
Dakyron Member	Fri Jan 08 09:55:08 Barring Trump doing something even crazier, the longer they wait the less likely it would happen. Partisanship will return, Trump will be doing reality TV again, and no one will care. If it happened now, today, you might manage enough votes. If it happens Jan 30th, I doubt you would be anywhere close.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Jan 08 09:58:38 The gop cant really agree to articles of impeachment if they have been written up by an america-hating hajji.
Dukhat Member	Fri Jan 08 10:03:06 The GOP only cares about one thing: making their donors happy. Trump gave them the judges and tax cuts their billionaire donors wanted. And they know Trump will be a liability in the future so if they impeach him now when it doesn't really matter anymore, they can make sure he can't run again and fuck things up in 2024 and beyond. It's a ruthless calculus but that's what McConnell always does: come down on the side of what the billionaires want.
Rugian Member	Fri Jan 08 11:31:54 Jergul Your level of proficiency in basic arithmetic is astounding.
Rugian Member	Fri Jan 08 11:35:16 And Dukhat for once isn't being totally retarded, a large part of this will come down to what the donors want. I expect those conversations are presently happening.
jergul large member	Fri Jan 08 11:56:33 Ruggy That was more my touch method getting rusty :D.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 08 12:34:45 Lindsey Graham: "As President @realDonaldTrump stated last night, it is time to heal and move on. " these stupid fuckheads persuaded by another teleprompter read... yeah, he totally wants to heal, while maintaining election stolen... right plus Lindsey says impeachment would set a bad precedent yeah, why make the president follow his oath of office ALL the time... just let him attempt a coup & poison America without any consequences... what's the harm
Dakyron Member	Fri Jan 08 12:38:51 Graham is a piece of shit, but we already knew that.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 08 12:43:44 definitely, but he began to break away from the fucking obvious fraud & traitor in his drunken 5 minutes during electoral vote objections i guess the booze wore off
Renzo Marquez Member	Fri Jan 08 12:45:48 Lulz @ terrorist, coup attempt, etc. The response to this trivial incident will be even more retarded than the response to 9/11. More reductions in civil liberties and more spying guaranteed. And bootlickers like tw will applaud it.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 08 12:51:11 what aspect doesn't fit terrorism? what were the guys w/ the zip-ties planning? terrorism isn't muslim bombers only (plus pipe bombs -were- found) ...& i don't care if you decide they were all antifa also it -was- a coup attempt not just the attack, Trump's entire barrage assault w/ never a concern for factual info... how can it be a good faith effort w/ no concern for facts? (plus telling Pence to violate his duties)
Rugian Member	Fri Jan 08 12:54:56 "The response to this trivial incident will be even more retarded than the response to 9/11. More reductions in civil liberties and more spying guaranteed. And bootlickers like tw will applaud it." "Glenn Greenwald @ggreenwald There's absolutely a new War on Terror being initiated -- it'd been lurking for awhile, but it's accelerating now for obvious reasons. This new one is aimed inward, domestically. It entails many of the same frameworks. They're saying it explicitly: [link] If the last few decades teach anything, it should be that making weighty decisions at times of high and intense emotions, closely following an event that unifies most everyone to the point that any deviations or questioning are treated like treason or heresy, is extremely unwise. ...Yesterday I wrote: the same tactic used against critics of the first War on Terror would be used for the new one: demonizing those who question its excesses as "pro-terrorist." Today, up pops neocon @DavidFrum to reprise his role, this time as a liberal thought leader [link] Liberals who are behind the Biden/Harris plan to initiate this new War on Terror, this time with a primary domestic focus, won't need to study what neocons did with the first War on Terror to learn those old tactics against critics. Neocons are their full allies in all of this. A key ally for the Dems in this domestic War on Terror will be the same media outlets who have acted as their spokespeople since 2016. CNN employs a former conservative, @oliverdarcy, whose main function in life is to demand censorship on behalf of Dems: [link] Most of these pro-Dem media outlets employ people whose principal job is do demand censorship of Democrats' adversaries. When FB yesterday announced the Trump ban, Darcy immediately popped up to complain it wasn't broad enough, that we need mass banning on those on the Right: [link] I spent the first decade of my journalism career devoted to exposing and denouncing the excesses of the first War on Terror, and I see exactly the same tactics forming: If you question or are concerned about these new powers, you'll be branded as sympathetic to the terrorists. http://mob...ald/status/1347542374952677377
habebe Member	Fri Jan 08 12:55:35 "Trump should resign in exchange for a pardon. I give that a 25% chance." State pardon? because potus pardon power is near unlimited, for federal crimes he can even pre pardon himself or friends. But no Trump will be in office until Biden takes over.The fear of the left is that Trump will continue to be the most powerful force in half the country. "our journeyntogether has just begun" If he sets up his own Trump tv, he would be unstoppable.
Renzo Marquez Member	Fri Jan 08 12:57:55 Trump was grifting for donations. Brainwasheds like the woman would was murdered have given him a lot of money. There was not coup attempt. You can look at the clowns who occupied the building and that's very clear. Which part of BLM and Antifa don't fit terrorism? My point isn't that this wouldn't meet some dictionary definition. It's that lots of stuff would that is never called terrorism because it's a loaded word... and will be used to restrict civil liberties just like post-9/11 (haven't gotten those back yet... or left Afghanistan). But on the bright side, Manchin asked twatter to ban Trump and also said he's against further direct stimulus payments. Hahahaha. And Congressional Dems' top priority (aside from impeaching Trump and passing new anti-terror laws) is making the tax system more regressive.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 08 13:08:02 "Trump was grifting for donations" false, a guess by media as they can't seem to realize he's not a normal adult, he's an extremely mentally-ill child, who was legit trying to overturn election & highly susceptible to conspiracy theories how does his hour long private call pressuring Georgia to 'recalculate' their votes get money? & if it was just for money, he would've tweeted the donation link himself daily... i only saw it once that i recall
Renzo Marquez Member	Fri Jan 08 13:13:48 He asked GA officials to get to the bottom of irregularities. If you listen to the entire tape, it's clear that he believes he was cheated. He doesn't ask them to do anything illegal.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 08 13:29:23 it shows it wasn't purely for money as to the call, he has zero interest in their evidence refuting his claims & claims they are breaking the law if they don't do what he wants (a threat) if you want to argue he believed every single thing he was saying, i'll admit it's possible as he's vastly mentally-ill... that's the only way he could be so confident, and so unwilling to hear & absorb any of the constant info to the contrary & to only trust the crazy nuts he was retweeting... still doesn't change he was also fighting for illegal means, thus a coup (plus being so vastly mentally-ill & incapable of ever believing anything he doesn't want to believe is a big problem)
werewolf dictator Member	Fri Jan 08 13:34:46 saying there was attempted coup is stupid saying what happened was another pearl harbor day of infamy [schumer] is at least as retarded as anything trump has ever said ditto in saying usa needs to get rid of trump before jan 20th because he's liable to use nukes [pelosi]
Renzo Marquez Member	Fri Jan 08 13:55:43 tumbleweed the wanderer Fri Jan 08 13:29:23 "it shows it wasn't purely for money" I never said there was only one motivation. But money was key. "still doesn't change he was also fighting for illegal means, thus a coup" No. That's absurd. There have been numerous examples of people contesting election results, faithless electors, etc. in the past. None were called coup attempts. Russiagate conspiracy theory nonsense could more accurately be described as a coup attempt than anything Trump did.
werewolf dictator Member	Fri Jan 08 13:59:51 stocks go up as the supposed "coup" and "pearl harbor" is aired live on television i guess the markets figure trump joining forces with buffalo horn wearing viking shaman to rule the country in combination would be better than pelosi-schumer-biden trio
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 08 14:22:56 "There have been numerous examples of people contesting election results, faithless electors, etc. in the past. None were called coup attempts. Russiagate conspiracy theory nonsense could more accurately be described as a coup attempt than anything Trump did" he did more than merely contest results... it was an effort to disrupt literally every step of the process, and continuing long after every actual election lawyer gave up the fight, w/ Trump spewing CONSTANT made-up nonsense daily on twitter (& never acknowledging a single thing contrary to his bullshit, repeating proven false shit) & personally strong-arming people to change results & calling for Pence to object the the electors (not in his power, which Trump surely was told MANY times, yet kept saying it... & then him saying disappointed in Pence when Pence didn't do it that day... which led to the cultist mob chanting to hang Pence, btw...) & also posting claims from loyalist legislatures that they would change the electors... plus this invitation of cultists to DC, saying the people wouldn't stand for this steal, and then specifically directing them to the Capitol Bldg also 'Russiagate' had no path leading to a coup... plus EVERY investigation has found it was warranted...
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 08 14:29:10 ...no path as the ONLY way to remove Trump was via impeachment so Congress would have had to agree with the evidence the FBI accumulated against Trump (plus just would make Pence prez) ...although Trump was never even a target (until his obstructing efforts) & there's been no indication of planted evidence, so even more obviously not meant as a coup... yet guess what piece of shit fraud still says it was... & lies about what the investigations found...
Seb Member	Fri Jan 08 14:29:34 Comparing the gore/Bush disputes to this is absurd. The facts were not disputed: hanging chads existed etc. and the argument was about a that should be handled. The courts ruled, gore conceded, and the people complaining about the election being stolen after by and large meant they disagreed with the courts interpretation of what ought to happen given the shared agreed facts. Trump and supporters have no factual basis or evidence for their dispute, have lost every court case, and responded by storming in and trying to disrupt due process to prevent it delivering a result they don't accept. But you guys know that already. Pretending to believe this false equivalency is just a lie you tell to yourselves and others too avoid admitting you are demanding autocracy.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 08 14:52:03 hanging chads were obviously a vote (unless a different selection for that same race was made) none should ever have been a dispute anyway, this video makes a good case why Trump responsible: http://twitter.com/keithedwards/status/1347644059536408576
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jan 08 14:54:17 ...and obviously Trump has spewed that shit & more 1,000x over during the past couple months
Renzo Marquez Member	Fri Jan 08 14:56:15 Good to see tw still taking his cues from Bill Kristol. Lulz.
Dakyron Member	Fri Jan 08 14:57:26 "he facts were not disputed: hanging chads existed etc. and the argument was about a that should be handled. The courts ruled, gore conceded, and the people complaining about the election being stolen after by and large meant they disagreed with the courts interpretation of what ought to happen given the shared agreed facts. " This is incorrect. Diebold voting machines and other assorted rhetoric was a big part of it. Diebold irregularities(alleged irregularities, at least) is why a democrat objected to the certification of the Ohio vote, which set the precedent for Cruz and Hawley.
Dakyron Member	Fri Jan 08 14:58:46 http://www...ICS/01/06/electoral.vote.1718/ WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Alleging widespread "irregularities" on Election Day, a group of Democrats in Congress objected Thursday to the counting of Ohio's 20 electoral votes, delaying the official certification of the 2004 presidential election results. The move was not designed to overturn the re-election of President Bush, said Ohio Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones and California Sen. Barbara Boxer, who filed the objection. The objecting Democrats, most of whom are House members, said they wanted to draw attention to the need for aggressive election reform in the wake of what they said were widespread voter problems. In a letter to congressional leaders Wednesday, members of the group said they would take the action because a new report by Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee found "numerous, serious election irregularities," particularly in Ohio, that led to "a significant disenfranchisement of voters." "How can we possibly tell millions of Americans who registered to vote, who came to the polls in record numbers, particularly our young people ... to simply get over it and move on?" Tubbs Jones told reporters. The House of Representatives and Senate met Thursday afternoon in a constitutionally mandated session to count the electoral votes. Vice President Dick Cheney, in his role as president of the Senate, presided over the session. The results from each state, read in alphabetical order, were ticked through quickly until Ohio was called, and a clerk read the letter of objection from Boxer and Tubbs Jones. Cheney then ordered the lawmakers back to their respective chambers for two hours of debate on the merits of the challenge. It is only the second such challenge since the current rules for counting electoral votes were established in 1877. The last was in 1969 and it concerned a so-called "faithless elector," according to congressional researchers. Four years ago, after the disputed election results in Florida, members of the Congressional Black Caucus attempted to block Florida's electoral votes from being counted. In a scene recalled in Michael Moore's movie "Fahrenheit 9/11," lawmaker after lawmaker was gaveled down by Vice President Al Gore because no senator would support the objections, as the law requires. House Democrats involved in this year's protest worked for weeks to enlist the support of a senator in their party, and Boxer agreed to join the effort Wednesday. "This is my opening shot to be able to focus the light of truth on these terrible problems in the electoral system," Boxer told a press conference. "While we have men and women dying to bring democracy abroad, we've got to make it the best it can be here at home, and that's why I'm doing this." If one member of each body of Congress objects, congressional rules require that lawmakers return to their chambers to vote on the merits. A simple majority vote in each chamber would overturn the challenge -- something that should be easily achieved in the GOP-controlled Congress. Republicans dismissed the effort as a stunt, noting that specific allegations of voting problems in Ohio have been investigated by journalists and, the Republicans said, found to be untrue. "But apparently, some Democrats only want to gripe about counts, recounts, and recounts of recounts," said Rep. Deborah Pryce, an Ohio Republican. "So eager are they to abandon their job as public servants, they have cast themselves in the role of Michael Moore, concocting wild conspiracy theories to distract the American public." White House press secretary Scott McClellan dismissed the challenge as "partisan politics." "The election is behind us," he said. "The American people now expect their leaders in Washington to focus on the big priorities facing this country." Sen. John Kerry, the Democratic nominee for president, released a letter Wednesday saying he would not take part in the protest. "Our legal teams on the ground have found no evidence that would change the outcome of the election," Kerry said. Bush carried Ohio by more than 118,000 votes -- the Buckeye State win providing the margin of victory in the Electoral College race. The president received 286 to Kerry's 252 electoral votes. "There are very troubling questions that have not yet been answered by Ohio election officials," the senator from Massachusetts said. "In the coming months I will present a national proposal to ensure transparency and accountability in our voting process." Kerry was not on hand Thursday. He is in Iraq to thank U.S. troops for their service.
werewolf dictator Member	Fri Jan 08 14:58:48 the 2000 pro-bush brooks brother riot resembled a coup far more than this "pearl harbor" event
Dakyron Member	Fri Jan 08 15:00:40 That was 2004, but they tried to object in 2000 as well: http://www...-certifies-electoral-vote.html Today, for nearly 20 minutes in the cavernous House chamber, a dozen members of the Congressional Black Caucus, joined by a few sympathizers, tried in vain to block the counting of Florida's 25 electoral votes, protesting that black voters had been disenfranchised. Florida's highly contested electoral votes were crucial in Mr. Bush's victory after a prolonged legal and political battle following an inconclusive election.
jergul large member	Fri Jan 08 15:01:28 That is really the key. There are a number of routes that could had led to Trump still holding the Oval Office on January 21st. The game plan was to ensure that 270 electoral votes were not counted for Biden.
kargen Member	Fri Jan 08 17:28:34 This is all about 2024. Republicans with aspirations of running in 2024 don't want to have to contend with President Trump. The Democrats absolutely don't want to see President Trump in 2024 so doing whatever they can to make him go away now.
Y2A Member	Fri Jan 08 17:33:24 murkowski might leave to the Dems or go independent.
jergul large member	Sat Jan 09 02:01:31 Kargen Georgia shows that the only thing Trump running in 2024 does is ensure a democratic victory. I think you need to accept that most democrats believe he is unfit and should never hold federal office again.
werewolf dictator Member	Sat Jan 09 02:21:56 trump lost georgia to biden by 0.23%.. and very likely would have won if he had vigorously supported $2000 stimulus checks *before* presidential election.. [or news of imminent covid vaccine rollout had been admitted as true by press.. or social and mainstream media hadn't blocked out hunter biden story by lying it was "russian disinformation"] same is true for a number of other states if gop wants to win elections then it's the mitch mcconnells who need riddance.. rather than trump wing of party
jergul large member	Sat Jan 09 04:05:48 WD Trump would have won the election if he had been fit for office. The Georgia Senate races were lost because of his fixation on not accepting he lost the presidential race.
werewolf dictator Member	Sat Jan 09 04:10:14 georgia senate races lost because people get $2000 checks [and maybe other populist goodies] for getting rid of mcconnell
jergul large member	Sat Jan 09 04:25:05 It was lost because the GOP candidates could not focus on the importance of holding the Senate to stop Biden's radical agenda. Because doing that is impossible if you are still saying Trump won the election. =============== The GOP would be crazy not to convict Trump. He is going to primary the 20 up in 2022 and the 10 up in 2024 unless he is dealt a knock out blow. Conviction stops Trump from federal fundraising in those crazy slush money election funds he is making. Pence is the best bet for 2024 for as long as not Pence GOPers "betray" Trump by convicting him now. The house is a monkey cage. I cannot be bothered with the crazies in the GOP caucus there.
jergul large member	Sat Jan 09 04:27:51 And fuck Trump for forcing foreigners to learn the byzantine inticracies of the US system of Government.
Rugian Member	Sat Jan 09 04:33:07 Jergul You're a European and you're complaining that the *American* system of government is byzantine?
jergul large member	Sat Jan 09 04:38:30 Ruggy I am complaining about having to learn the inticracies of your system. You are welcome for me pointing out that trump's fu money raising evaporates on conviction.
werewolf dictator Member	Sat Jan 09 04:48:37 biden is probably more right wing in most areas than trump [crime budget foreign policy].. except in liking pro-abortion judges and being sjw into identity politics.. there is no radical left wing agenda with biden
Rugian Member	Sat Jan 09 04:53:34 Jergul No one is forcing you to trawl through the tomes of the criminal code or FEC regulations to learn of the financial penalties inflicted on public officials removed from office. That's entirely on you. But as long as we're talking about "byzantine" systems, I'll send you $5 if you can explain this shitshow to me in 20 paragraphs or less. http://www...e=european-political-structure
jergul large member	Sat Jan 09 05:55:32 Ruggy No need for me to delve into it. Its not my political structure. Hopefully, the EU will never give me grounds to learn the minutae of its system.
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