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Utopia Talk / Politics / Those peace loving shia
habebe
Member
Thu Feb 18 20:05:30
Murder another civilian...but its the Saudis that we should worry about, right?

http://www...traditional-diplomacy-analysis
Paramount
Member
Fri Feb 19 13:22:31
”its the Saudis that we should worry about”

Correct. The Saudis, sunnis, ISIS, al-Qaida.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 20 05:35:42
If another country invaded the USA and hung Trump for his crimes against the American people, as you did with Saddam. I would expect the USA to not be peaceful for decades. You can't really invade other countries and expect peace.
Habebe
Member
Sat Feb 20 05:50:55
Nimatzo, This group would have been thrilled we tooknout Sadaam. I am not, I admit its probably one of the biggest blunders in recent US history.In his own brutal way he kept a lot of people in check.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 20 05:52:48
Remember that some of the holiest Shia places are in Iraq. In this sense it mirrors the concerns of Al Qaeda and Bin Laden during the first gulf war. The silver lining is that, the Shia power structure is centralized and with centralization comes a degree collective concern for some sort of status quo and stability, "now that we have all this power, I don't want to die". The Shia desire for martyrdom is provincial in comparison to the global jihad movement. They want to have jihad as one component of the day to day concerns of governing an Islamic nation. Sentiments quite clearly expressed during the Iran-Iraq war to Iranian generals by the ruling elite.

That may still be problematic, but it just isn't as big of a problem.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 20 05:55:03
Habebe
Yes in the way anyone would miss a brutal criminal who kept people in check by throwing mustard gas on them. I totally agree.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 20 05:56:40
And that is why people hate you. Don't come and ask for peace bro, when you believe it is ok to keep people "in check" supporting brutal despots.
Habebe
Member
Sat Feb 20 06:04:45
Shia war with Iraq shows they have no problems martyring even their own children in waves.

As for Saddaam, as brutal as he was, in his death, the power vacuum has not made things better.

I see the Saudi way as at the very least the lesser of two evils. Again, they can be brutal, but they are much more reasonable at least to us, then these ayatollahs.

I know much of the West frowns on the Prince, but in his position he has been making what reasinable people would.call progress.Indont expect perfection, we dont even have that.
Habebe
Member
Sat Feb 20 06:10:40
FYI...This was a semi troll thread in response to all the hatred the Saudis get compared to Iran and their cronies in these boards.

Afaik, Im thebonly one who prefers the Saudis, even amongst the conservatives. I openly admit I have a bias as I grew up around Saudis, even having one guy stay with us during the first Gulf war and for years we still kept corresponding cards and letters. Nazih Shihabi, unfortunately we lost touch over the years.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 20 06:15:56
"Shia war with Iraq shows they have no problems martyring even their own children in waves."

I have no idea what you are talking about, but there is no universe where *you* would have a problem with brave young people sacrificing themselves to defend their homeland against an invading enemy. Be that Saddam, the invader of Iran or the USA, the invader of Iraq. You would venerate such people.

"As for Saddaam, as brutal as he was, in his death, the power vacuum has not made things better."

"Better" or "Worse" are things you care about because you are there (in the ME) in the first place. You supported Saddam, without western support, Iran would have probably crushed him. You supported one criminal against another, you got involved in this shitshow, according to you, "a lesser of two evils". Ok, well see where that got you. Don't talk about "peace" in the war you *chose* to get involved in (between shias and sunnis).

"reasonable at least to us"

Because they are scared of Iran!!! Not because they are inherently less brutal, crazy or reasonable. They have very reasonable fears.
Rugian
Member
Sat Feb 20 06:22:32
Nim

I think the human wave thing is a reference to the Iran-Iraq War.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 20 06:38:26
"I openly admit I have a bias as I grew up around Saudis"

It is probably impossible for me to convince anyone I am "unbiased" about Iran, but I believe I am as it relates to these issues. I am not unbiased regarding the prosperity and destiny of Iran. My happiness will be tied to the state of affairs in Iran, until I die. I am not happy. I don't think Shia Islam is better. I think Iranian culture is better. It is in large parts the Iranian influence on Shia Islam that makes it the lesser of two evils.

How do Shias (15% of muslim population) play the Sunnis so bad they have to crawl to Israel? Iran. Iran has always been punching above it's demographic weight class, even when the Sassanids were fighting Romans or "Byzantians", it was a population light weight.

The fact that Iran is dominantly shias, is the result of a conversion campaign, because the Safavid (shia) Shah at the time realized sunnis would always pose a fifth column, legally within Islam, subservient to the Ottoman (rightful) Caliph of the Ummah. So he converted the country and killed everyone that resisted. It was thus strategic decision to become shia, you could say to maintain the integrity of Iran.

Do you understand why the arabs fear a culture that FORCIBLY converted their population as a military strategy? ISIS propaganda regularly refers to the Iranian regime as "Safavid".

This is the 1400 year old shit the USA chose to get involved.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 20 06:52:39
"I think the human wave thing is a reference to the Iran-Iraq War."

And I didn't get into the details of what is largely a myth. There are of course instance in the course an 8 year war when you are under sanctions, where desperate (but often not brainless) tactics were used. But most of these "human wave attacks" were well coordinated infiltration and what contributed to the use of chemical weapons. ZOMG Iranis just rolled in like a human wave!! It originated from Saddams generals excusing their failure, most likely.

Anyway the nuances are stripped out of the reality of things as they take a life of their own.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Feb 20 06:57:35
It's really interesting how you can view a nation using conscripts to defend themselves, and a nation using chemical weapons to sustain their war of aggression, and come away saying the nation getting gassed is bad
Habebe
Member
Sat Feb 20 07:07:40
"I have no idea what you are talking about, but there is no universe where *you* would have a problem with brave young people sacrificing themselves to defend their homeland against an invading enemy. Be that Saddam, the invader of Iran or the USA, the invader of Iraq. You would venerate such people."

Yes I would, considering the alternative would be worse.However its the manner in which they did it in which I find repulsive. Its one thing to arm small children while your being invaded, its another to use them as human bombs and fodder.

"Better" or "Worse" are things you care about because you are there (in the ME) in the first place. "

Fair enough, I wish we didnt get involved, but I understand it.We needed an uninterupted supply of oil.

Now as to who is more reasonable, one openly calls for our death daily, one has been able to look past our differences and realize that a strategic Alliance benefits all of us.We sell them weapons, they keep a steady flow of oil ( well, they used to, we no longer need it, but they help maintain prices.stability)

The enemy of your enemy is your friend. The Kingdom is far more reasonable than Iran.

Yes, the Sunnis have their crazies too, as does Christianity. But you dont see SA actively cooperating with and supplying them as Iran does with their mad dog Hezzbollah.

I have Iranian freinds as well.The Hejazzi family, great people.They fled from.the revolution and have nothing good to say about the Ayatollah.Telling stories of what a great modern nation it used to be until fundamentalist crazies took over.



Habebe
Member
Sat Feb 20 07:22:27
As for the bias, when I say I grew up with them, they were considered family.Ive even gone to Mosque with them, and they came to church with us, we co celebrated holidays etc.

I try to stay neutral but admit that because of that my views clearly could be tainted as much as my views towards the US.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 20 08:03:45
What ”manner” habebe?
Habebe
Member
Sat Feb 20 08:23:51
To use them as wave attackers/fodder...knowing they were almost certainly going To their death.It was lile soviet peasants they charged at German machine gunners.

That's different than handing a kid a gun and saying if need be kill anything that comes near you.
Habebe
Member
Sat Feb 20 08:28:03
Even sending children forum through minefields ahead ofnother fighters.
Habebe
Member
Sat Feb 20 08:47:53
I guess it boils down to this.

How are we supposed to deal with a nation/group that fundamentally beleives we shouldn't exist and calls for our death.

Especially when you have Egypt, Jordan and SA who has a premise of, e have different world views but we can work with you.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Sat Feb 20 08:54:47
Habebe
Member Sat Feb 20 08:47:53
"How are we supposed to deal with a nation/group that fundamentally beleives we shouldn't exist and calls for our death."

Iranians don't believe this though. "Death to America" refers to the US government, not the American people. And they have historical and recent legitimate reasons (barbaric sanctions during a pandemic, support for Sunni jihadist groups, being Israel and Saudi Barbaria's lapdog) to despise the US government.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 20 08:54:48
The thing I explained was largely a myth? To the extent that these things occur in any battle, they are largely due to constraints on hardware. Syria would show that when Iran can use the kind of hardware your country take for grantes, it won’t be suicide missions, but drones and long range weapons.

I am sure you would appreciate the validity of suicide missions if you should find yourself lacking the proper materiel. Until then, you should know, there is nothing inherently more horrible or less brave in clearing mines with your body, or jumping on a grenade.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Sat Feb 20 08:57:02
Also, Iran has been willing to work with the US (ex. the nuclear deal). They also worked with us after 9/11 in Afghanistan. The US again broke its promises with nuclear deal and the Axis of Evil speech. Iran would be willing to work with the US if the US stopped its retarded policies in the ME.
Habebe
Member
Sat Feb 20 09:22:49
Renzo, I appreciate the fact that they seperate the US people from the government.Just as I have no qualms with the regular citizenry.

The nuclear deal I wpuldnt count as " dealing with the US" any more than a hostage negotiation.

But I think your thoughts that if we just left then alone they would be cooperate with the west as the Sunni nations do is a pipe dream.

You.could argue they have legitimate gripes with the US government.But the US government can equally argue the same.

Nimatzo, I clearly understand its due to lack of hardware. However they not only did it for defence but offense. We can argue all day over the morality of child soldiers. Defense is understandable, the alternative is mass rape, brutality and murder, I get that. But for offensives, its a bit harder to justify it and again sending children into mine fields ahead of real soldiers is just repugnant to me, there has to have been other options.

But again, this is not may main gripe that regime change is necessary ( just not by our hands) its their fundamental beleif that the US as a nation shouldnt exist, to them we are Israel 2.0. I dont see any way around it other than regime change.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 20 09:26:44
Habebe

”But for offensives, its a bit harder to justify it and again sending children into mine fields ahead of real soldiers is just repugnant to me”

Can you please be specific and reference the battle in question?
Paramount
Member
Sat Feb 20 09:47:49
Habebe,

”Yes, the Sunnis have their crazies too, as does Christianity. But you dont see SA actively cooperating with and supplying them”

So who supplied ISIS with all these caravans of brand new Toyotas trucks?

The Saudis also built several spa and fitness resorts for al-Qaida fighters in Saudi Barbaria. They claim it is for rehab but let’s not kid ourselves. When the terrorists has been patched up and rested for a while they have probably been going back to Syria and elsewhere.



” its their fundamental beleif that the US as a nation shouldnt exist”

It was and is your fundamental belief that Iran should not be a free and independent country – that the Iranian people should not have the right to decide their own leaders and goverment. Thus, the US overthrew of the democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh of Iran in 1953.

At the least, Iran has had free elections. The people of Saudi Arabia will probably never have it because... house Saud are barbarians, and they also let themselves be bribed by the US and Israel who clearly despise freedom and democracy if they can make moneys from it. USA, Barbaria and Israel are thugs. A mafia.


”I dont see any way around it other than regime change.”

See, here you go again.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Sat Feb 20 09:54:19
Habebe
Member Sat Feb 20 09:22:49
"You.could argue they have legitimate gripes with the US government.But the US government can equally argue the same."

No, you can't. The Iranian government never facilitated a coup in the US. The Iranian government never supported Mexico or Canada in a war in which the supported forces used chemical weapons against Americans. The Iranian government didn't set up permanent military bases in Canada and Mexico and then declare the US as a member of the Axis of Evil. The Iranian government didn't deprive the American people of medicine during the middle of a horrible pandemic. The Iranian government hasn't done anything close to the escalation that assassinating Soleimani was. The Iranian government also isn't the party that broke the nuclear deal. Every reputable party agrees that Iran was honoring its obligations until Trump blew it up to appease Saudi Barbaria and Israel.
chuck
Member
Sat Feb 20 09:54:33
Habebe: Kim Kardashian is one of the hottest women on the planet.

Habebe: Saudi Arabia is the lesser of two evils.

Habebe is Ned:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19CcR-75DyU
jergul
large member
Sat Feb 20 11:28:09
Nimi
Habebe has obviously read the Protocols of The Elder's of Shia.

habebe
I have to say that those imaginary Iranians you coocted seem truly despicable.
Habebe
Member
Sat Feb 20 13:01:40
Nimatzo, The Iran Iraq war for starters.


Paramount, I get that any enemy of the US your a symoathetic to.

Those spas you speqk of are rehabs. The Toyotas likely came from.Toyota.

Renzo, No Iran hasnt done most of those things. However they do routinely break with our enemies
Habebe
Member
Sat Feb 20 13:01:40
Nimatzo, The Iran Iraq war for starters.


Paramount, I get that any enemy of the US your a symoathetic to.

Those spas you speqk of are rehabs. The Toyotas likely came from.Toyota.

Renzo, No Iran hasnt done most of those things. However they do routinely break with our enemies
Habebe
Member
Sat Feb 20 13:05:06
Renzo, They do routinely deal.with our enemies ( Venezuela for starters)

They shot rockets at US military bases.

They support hezzbollah, nuff said.

This incident here.

They shot down a civilian airliner about a year ago.

Stormed US territory and held hostages.

And routinely hold the world hostage with threats of nukes like NK.
Habebe
Member
Sat Feb 20 13:05:06
Renzo, They do routinely deal.with our enemies ( Venezuela for starters)

They shot rockets at US military bases.

They support hezzbollah, nuff said.

This incident here.

They shot down a civilian airliner about a year ago.

Stormed US territory and held hostages.

And routinely hold the world hostage with threats of nukes like NK.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Feb 20 14:02:04
Habebe
No I understand it is that war, but s battle specifically. I am askimg because I have put some time to read this very issue of ”human wave” attacks in the Iran-Iraq war and have not found anything other than the nominally horrible and reality of war. Nothing especially horrible and certainly systematic. Can the zealous basij militia have been, crazy enough to clear minefields with their bodies? Yes. Why is that more horrible than jumping on a grenade?

As for offensive defensive, you tell me where the line goes from 9/11 attacks to the USA the Invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq and subsequent occupation and regime change. You got a tiny sting and you did that.

Now I appreciate you may not have supported that, I have no idea, but in that light the fact that the Iranian attack continued even when Iraq had been thrown out, is no different. Foolish, stupid, many Iranians agree. At least Iran tried to change the regime of the actual country that attacked it, and not Malysia.

You would be surprised how similair to ”war” at home is over the issue of Irans foreign adventures (Hezbollah and Syria), to the one you have in America over yours.
Renzo Marquez
Member
Sat Feb 20 15:37:23
Habebe
Member Sat Feb 20 13:05:06
"Renzo, They do routinely deal.with our enemies ( Venezuela for starters)"

1. Why is Venezuela our enemy?
2. Iran has to do business with anyone willing to do business with it because of sanctions.

"They shot rockets at US military bases."

Persian shot rockets in the Persian Gulf. Seems reasonable. Why are our military bases there?

"They support hezzbollah, nuff said."

And the CIA has continued to support groups that are basically Al Qaeda. In Syria, Hezbollah has done more to protect Christians than the US, Israel, Saudi Barbaria, etc.

"This incident here.

They shot down a civilian airliner about a year ago."

The US has killed many more civilians than Iran.

"Stormed US territory and held hostages."

In 1979. A lot of stuff happened before and after that.

"And routinely hold the world hostage with threats of nukes like NK."

The US made it rational for Iran to seek nuclear weapons. Compare US treatment of Libya (gave up WMDs, got invaded) and North Korea (has WMDs, will not get invaded).
habebe
Member
Sat Feb 20 17:42:05
Nimatzo, I'll have to get back to you about the specific battles, I dont know them off the top of my head.

"As for offensive defensive, you tell me where the line goes from 9/11 attacks to the USA the Invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq and subsequent occupation and regime change. You got a tiny sting and you did that."

Well, we were wrong.Shouldnt have done that. But the issue wasntnwith the offense as much as using children on the offensive. I don't know the name of the battles, but it was after they pushed Saddaam back and then went on the offensive, from what I gather it was debated amongst the military with many not wanting to gonon the offensive, with children.

You asked why its worse than throwing yourself on a grenade.The issue with me is having children do it, I feel like that's a rather universally frowned upon tactic.

renzo,

"1. Why is Venezuela our enemy?
2. Iran has to do business with anyone willing to do business with it because of sanctions."

1. Thats its own thread, but its bipartisan supported that the maduro regime is an enemy state.

2.They dont have to, they can abandon their nuclear program or the Ayatollah government can resign, they have options. I understand they are not favorable options, sometimes two groups just can't get a long.

"Persian shot rockets in the Persian Gulf. Seems reasonable. Why are our military bases there?"

Do these Persians own this territory? is it within their borders? we are there with permissions of the governments who do control thhose territories.

We wouldnt launcburocket in Canada, but that Americans launching rockets in N America.See how silly that sounds?

"And the CIA has continued to support groups that are basically Al Qaeda. "

Ok, and people have a legitimate gripe against us then, no?

You cant have it both ways, if its wrong when we do it, its wrong when they do it.Both sides can claim gripes.

"

In Syria, Hezbollah has done more to protect Christians than the US, Israel, Saudi Barbaria, etc."

Why do I care about protecting Christians in Syria?

"The US has killed many more civilians than Iran."

Ok but I had said "
You.could argue they have legitimate gripes with the US government.But the US government can equally argue the same."

You said no. Both sides could argue legitimate gripes.

"In 1979. A lot of stuff happened before and after that."

You were the one who I thought brought up the Shah, yes stuff happened before and after that, Im not sure what your point is here.


As for the nukes, well listen, sometimes groups nust can't reasonably coexist, we both fundamentally dont want the others leadership to exist in the manner they do, thats life.


habebe
Member
Sat Feb 20 21:03:34
Jergul, Yes, of course anyone who doesn't want religious fundamentalists running the country must be made up right?
jergul
large member
Sun Feb 21 05:10:43
habebe
From my perspective, your country is run by religious fundamentalists.

You do not understand Iran at all. The religious leadership is basically Iran's Supreme Court. They rule on the legality of various decisions elected officials like Iran's president make.

Then you have the rural-urban divide were rural counties tend to make headline grabbing decisions that are generally overturned on appeal.

The one thing Iran does that kills a lot of people historically is run a completely merciless war on drugs. 90% of executions in the country are for drug offenses.

Iran's parliament is dominated by people with doctorates in engineering. More than half hold degree in that and more than 2/3rds have doctorates in secular fields (Iran has two religious colleges and 17 secular universities).

The country can best be characterised as a fascist technocracy in religious trappings.

The modern shah country had 70% female illiteracy. The fundamentalist Iran has more women accepted into and graduating from university than men and has full literacy for everyone educated after the shah left.
jergul
large member
Sun Feb 21 05:15:59
Iran had written laws when people in what is Germany today were still trying to figure out the niceties of rocks and fire.

Habebe
Member
Sun Feb 21 05:26:31
"From my perspective, your country is run by religious fundamentalists."

Says the guy whos nation actually has a king who is also the head of the church.

"Iran had written laws when people in what is Germany today were still trying to figure out the niceties of rocks and fire."

What does this have to do with anything we are discussing?

Other than Iran/Persia this is pretty fucking random. I have no problem with Iranian civilians. I find their leadership incompatible with mine.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Feb 21 06:04:31
"I find their leadership incompatible with mine."

We all do, but is the Saudi one any more compatible? I have argued, no. You main objection has distilled down to "use of children as meat shields in offensive". So the detail start to matter, details I, like you, once accepted as truth*, and then when I read into it, didn't stand the test.

*These stories were going around in Iran, when I was 5-6 and still living there. i.e "Basij rounded up children and send them to the front". It was true enough at the time for my mother to stand like a hawk in the window, as we played outside, so she could "claim us", so to speak. Nothing actually happened, but many of the most atrocious stories are from dissidents. While I can't deny their accounts, I also understand that people who have been molested are going to remember things from that perspective.

I am all too familiar with the black and white accounts of Iranian dissident. It is very similar to "Never Trump", there is in essence NOTHING the Islamic Republic can do that they will agree with, unless that one thing is to dismantle itself. And you know what, they are not wrong, but neither am I. I don't carry their trauma, I have to respect it as it is inseparable from the sacrifice my parents made for me and my sister, but it is a good thing I am not burdened by their scars.
jergul
large member
Sun Feb 21 06:40:57
Habebe
Head of State is a ceremonial role.

Asking what role Iran's extremely long history plays is like asking why your founding father's are important.

Iran values its national culture and scientific tradition far higher than it does religion. Like nimi said, Shia faith is basically just the nationalization of religion to ensure it supports the State.

Iran has a president and a parliament that is admitedly quite fascist and way too techo orientated. You mean you do not like their version of a Supreme Court.

You sort of need to understand this to understand why Iran demands the right to master and use the nuclear cycle.

The nation as a whole is hardwired towards scientific endevours. It is an insult to the county to demand it refrain from technological development.

There is all kinds of crazy stuff that happened and happens in Iran. You have nailed none of them.
Paramount
Member
Sun Feb 21 07:25:16
” You sort of need to understand this to understand why Iran demands the right to master and use the nuclear cycle. ”


Iran is also a signatory of NPTR. As such they have the right to develop and aquire uranium and nuclear energy. In fact, other signatories of the NPTR is obliged to help Iran aquire amd develop nuclear energy. Iran signed it, so they expect some honesty from the West/USA – that they live up to what they have agreed on. But honesty seems not to be the US strongest characteristics, hence there is little to no trust in the US.
Habebe
Member
Sun Feb 21 07:25:43
Nimatzo, "We all do, but is the Saudi one any more compatible? I have argued, no. You main objection has distilled down to "use of children as meat shields in offensive"

Absolutley not. That is not my main argument. I find it repugnant, but that is not why Inthink Irans current regime is incomparable with the US government has nothing to do with that.

It had more.to do with our fundamental principles being at odds.

Iran like religiously and fervently beleive that the US government and the Islamic Royalty are an abomination to God or whatever. That is a core beleif of " the revolution"

As an American I see two main factions in the ME. One led by SA, Egypt etc. That has a history of diplomacy with us at the very top with strong strategic partnerships.

The other has a core beleif that us and our partners in the region shpuldnt exist, and that we somehow insult their religion by merely existing.

As repugnant as the child soldiers are, We as Americans deal with similar and maybe worse all the time.

Its theirncore beleif that ud and our partners dont have the right to exist which I find incompatible.

Jergul, I know its symbolic....that said comparing a priest dictator/oligarchy do secular elected officials is just absurd trolling.
Paramount
Member
Sun Feb 21 07:37:10
” Absolutley not. That is not my main argument. I find it repugnant, but that is not why Inthink Irans current regime is incomparable with the US government has nothing to do with that.”


Let me guess. Iran must submit to the US empire, accept a US puppet as their leader and subordinate itself as a military dictatorship like Egypt. Then Iran will be compatible with you.
Habebe
Member
Sun Feb 21 07:40:07
Contributors to the ideology included Jalal Al-e-Ahmad, who formulated the idea of Gharbzadegi—that Western culture must be rejected and fought as was a plague or an intoxication that alienated Muslims from their roots and identity.[7]

http://en....ners—particularly%20Americans.

Paramount, How about just agree to coexist.
Paramount
Member
Sun Feb 21 07:43:51
” The other has a core beleif that us and our partners in the region shpuldnt exist, and that we somehow insult their religion by merely existing.”

Ask the sunnis what they think of shias and that is the answer they will give you. Shias are apostates and must be killed. Shias are insulting sunnis religion by merely existing.
Paramount
Member
Sun Feb 21 07:58:06
” Paramount, How about just agree to coexist.”

Sure. The USA can exist in the USA, and Iran can exist in Iran. But I somehow doubt that the US is going to accept that. The US has a long history of fucking with Iran.

Read Renzos post at Sat Feb 20 09:54:19 again.
Habebe
Member
Sun Feb 21 08:08:28
"Ask the sunnis what they think of shias and that is the answer they will give you. Shias are apostates and must be killed. Shias are insulting sunnis religion by merely existing."

You are proving my point. When group A and B have a core.beleif the other shouldn't exist, that's incompatabile.

The difference is that the Sunni governments and the west tolerate each other and can put differences aside tonwork together.
Habebe
Member
Sun Feb 21 08:09:28
Paramount, Iran staying within its borders is about as laughable as the US doing that.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Feb 21 08:50:55
Habebe

”The difference is that the Sunni governments and the west tolerate each other and can put differences aside tonwork together.”

Iran. Bringing nations together, for 2500 years
Habebe
Member
Mon Feb 22 06:56:43
Nimatzo, I mean am I misunderstanding something?

Ive always been under rhe impression that the Ayatollahs revolution had certain core beleif, 2 amongst them were Islamic Royalty is bad and shouldnt exist, which is why the house of Saud doesn't like it.The other was that the US/western culture is pretty much the devil.

That is at least my understanding.But I am no scholar on the subject.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Feb 22 08:38:18
"The other was that the US/western culture is pretty much the devil"

And this is different from sunnis how exactly? THe difference is in it's application, which I mentioned.

Iran will seek regional influence and dominance, by virtue of being the country it is and not because regardless of religion. It so when it was Zoroastrian, it did so when it was sunni, it did so under the Shah and will do in the future regardless of form of government.

I just don't think you care when it comes down to the details, the roles could be reversed, you could have spent a few years in an Iran that never went through a revolution, but Saudi Arabia did and you would be here providing a mirror account.

The fact that your alliances look the way they do in the ME are accidents of history and not due to Saudis (or sunnis) being inherently more reasonable. In fact the recent moves are a direct result of the Arabs completely failing in both their attempts to militarily push Iran back.

Consider that the Iranian animosity towards you (big satan), is largely sourced back to 1953 and prior to that the British (little satan) removal of Reza Shah. So, objectively Iranians (even the secular ones) point to very real earthly concerns to qualify their skepticism towards the west, that Saudi Arabia can't. You have sold them all the weapons they want, protected them against Saddam, held hands with their kings, bought their oil and even when their offspring Bin Laden attacked you, you were very understanding and so on that it not reflect poorly on the "parents". These things are not somehow unimportant to explain why we are here.

TLDR: You have made things very simple for yourself.
Habebe
Member
Mon Feb 22 09:34:27
"And this is different from sunnis how exactly? THe difference is in it's application, which I mentioned."

The Sunni leadership doesn't seemed concerned about this though.

Let me put it this way, If the US stayed in SA/Israel/Iraq etc. But lifted sanctions would this stop the death to America stuff?
Or Hezzbollah? I'm honestly asking Your opinion on what you think would change.

"Iran will seek regional influence and dominance, by virtue of being the country it is and not because regardless of religion. "

I find it hard to seperate the two when the nation is run by clergy. SA has a partnership between the clergy and the Crown, one that lately the new Prince seems to have been taking a more dominant role and westernizing the country.Progress, not perfection.

I get that Iran is a large nation with a population almost 3x that of SA and that alone will have them butting heads considering the two leaders of the Muslim ME are SA and Iran, Ira being split will be the rope which they play tug of war.

My issue is that from an American perspective death to America, the other says your ways should repulse me, but we will work with you to our financial and strategic benefit.

Clearly it makes sense from that perspective who we choose to befriend.

". It so when it was Zoroastrian, it did so when it was sunni, it did so under the Shah and will do in the future regardless of form of government."

The Shah was good to us though. Selfishly so but, he wqs a net benefit for US/UK interests, especially comoared to the Ayatollahs.Iran would otherwise be a better fit as its a powerhouse nation.

"
The fact that your alliances look the way they do in the ME are accidents of history and not due to Saudis (or sunnis) being inherently more reasonable."

Yes and no. Iran's current regime ( an important specification) at its core hates the US and Islamic Royalty. The Saudis have Wahabi folks who probably hate the west as well, but the house of Saud clearly does not, and if they do they are clearly more reasonable then the Ayatollahs.

"You have sold them all the weapons they want, protected them against Saddam, held hands with their kings, bought their oil and even when their offspring Bin Laden attacked you, you were very understanding and so on that it not reflect poorly on the "parents". These things are not somehow unimportant to explain why we are here."

We bought plenty of oil from the Shah, we sold him all the weapons he wanted, we just backed a shitty horse, the House of Saud kept their people content, the Shah did not and instead threw lavish parties while people starved, if he didnt drop the ball our relationship with Iran would probably be drastically different.
Habebe
Member
Mon Feb 22 09:41:56
Also as for Bin Laden the clear difference is the HoS doesn't suport them.Hezzbollah is an arm of the Ayatollahs.

So its not that I have an issue with Iranians, but the regime.
werewolf dictator
Member
Tue Feb 23 21:44:10
wondering which parts [if any] of this should be believed

February 12, 1984, Section 6, Page 21

http://www...-five-years-of-fanaticism.html

Terence Smith, a former foreign correspondent and chief White House correspondent for The New York Times, is editor of the Washington Talk page.
By Terence Smith
HEIR TICKET TO PARADISE IS the blood-red headband and the small metal key that they wear into battle. ''Sar Allah,'' (''Warriors of God''), some of the headbands read in Farsi script, identifying the wearers as divinely designated martyrs who will use their keys to go directly to heaven if killed in the holy war against Iraq declared by their leader, the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. The headbands and the keys are worn by young boys, aged 12 to 17, who are recruited by local clergy or simply rounded up in the villages of Iran, given an intensive indoctrination in the Shiite tradition of martyrdom, and then sent weaponless into battle against Iraqi armor. Often bound together in groups of 20 by ropes to prevent the fainthearted from deserting, they hurl themselves on barbed wire or march into Iraqi mine fields in the face of withering machine-gun fire to clear the way for Iranian tanks. Across the back of their khaki-colored shirts is stenciled the slogan: ''I have the special permission of the Imam to enter heaven.''

In dozens of interviews conducted by this reporter in recent weeks with Iranian exiles, academics and government and intelligence officials in the United States and Europe, the blind faith of these teen-age martyrs was frequently cited as symbolic of the fanaticism that is part of life today in the Islamic Republic of Iran. An East European journalist who witnessed one of these human-wave assaults, in which tens of thousands of young Iranians have gone willingly to their deaths, could hardly believe what he was seeing, as first one boy, and then another, detonated a mine and was hurled into the air by the explosion. ''We have so few tanks,'' an Iranian officer explained to the journalist, without apology.
werewolf dictator
Member
Tue Feb 23 21:56:48
i wouldn't expect "exiles, academics and government and intelligence officials in the United States and Europe" to know anything especially distant rumors and propaganda from truth..

nyt writer claiming he has story off east european witness-journalist is more interesting.. since it's reliable if neither smith nor his source were liars

afaik.. anti-tank mines have always been designed so only heavy vehicles set them off..

and afaik.. small explosives [like frag grenades and presumably antipersonnel mines] only hurl people into the air in movies and television
Habebe
Member
Tue Feb 23 22:54:12
Wwd, Has the Iranian regime denied using child soldiers to clear mines?

I'll have to check the documentary I have that had eye witnesses talking about such. I remember it was a 2 parter on frontline abput SA and Iran.Indont recall who the witness was, but he was Iranian IIRC.
jergul
large member
Wed Feb 24 03:10:52
WD
Stomping on a teller type anti tank mine will trigger it. It only requires 250kg force.
Paramount
Member
Wed Feb 24 05:27:29
” Hezzbollah is an arm of the Ayatollahs. ”


In that case we can say that ISIS and al-Qaida is an arm of Saudi Barbaria and Zionist Israel.

ISIS and al-Qaida was created to attack USA, Europe and Iran.

Hezbollah was created as a direct consequence of Israel’s invasion of Lebanon. The people of Lebanon created Hezbollah to defend their country and their lives from the Zionist military invasion.

Iran just happen to agree with them, and rightly so, that the Zionist army has no right to wage war in Lebanon, to kill Lebanese people and to occupy their country.
Habebe
Member
Wed Feb 24 06:30:12
Paramount, The relationship isnt far off from the US to say Blackwater.Yes they are nit technically US government troops, but they pretty much are in actual practice.
werewolf dictator
Member
Wed Feb 24 06:42:09
maybe an nba player jumping creates 250 kgf

but then wikipedia says tellermine 43 had trigger weight of 100kg to 180kg

so maybe a kid could trigger that if they tried
jergul
large member
Wed Feb 24 11:44:09
Typo: 150, not 250.
Forwyn
Member
Wed Feb 24 14:32:51
It's just super weird to focus on unit tactics of the Iranian regime while they were getting fucking gassed by our ally, who later had to be deposed.

Or to hone in on Hezbollah, an utterly irrelevant group to the average Westerner, when you have Sunnis shooting up concerts and blowing up buildings and subways.
habebe
Member
Wed Feb 24 14:42:39
Unit tactics is an odd way to describe using children as meat shields....

And again the difference between al-Qaeda and Hezzbollah is state sponsorship.

We don't blame the US military for acts committed by the klan, but we do for say Blackwater.
Forwyn
Member
Wed Feb 24 14:48:36
"Unit tactics is an odd way to describe using children as meat shields"

No meat shields needed if Saddam doesn't launch an offensive war with Western support.

In any case, anti-tank mines don't explode because a kid with a metal detector walks over them.

"And again the difference between al-Qaeda and Hezzbollah is state sponsorship."

Even if this were true (it's not), Al Qaeda is way more relevant to the West than Hezbollah. Why on earth would we choose to focus on the player that is concerned with regional affairs, instead of the one that actually wants to blow us up, and doesn't just chant it over lunch?

http://www...cables-saudi-terrorist-funding

http://www.huffpost.com/entry/saudi-wahhabism-islam-terrorism_b_6501916
habebe
Member
Wed Feb 24 14:59:51
"No meat shields needed if Saddam doesn't launch an offensive war with Western support."

They used them on the offense as well.

"
Even if this were true (it's not), "

What?!

Hezzbollah is usually more regional, yes. Then again al Qaeda and ISIS did most* of there dirt in the region.

jergul
large member
Wed Feb 24 15:25:39
Yah, you really have to hate terror organizations like USMC, Hezbolla, AQ and ISIS.
jergul
large member
Wed Feb 24 15:27:14
USMC trained cardre are more likely than not killing civilians in Mexico as we type.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Feb 25 00:40:30
"They used them on the offense as well."

Against...Saddam? Who wasn't neutralized?

"Hezzbollah is usually more regional, yes. Then again al Qaeda and ISIS did most* of there dirt in the region."

I don't think we need to sift through Sunni/Shia terror statistics outside of the Middle East.
Forwyn
Member
Thu Feb 25 00:43:08
You have to admire the hilarity of a 60 day stand-down in the military to whine about white supremacy when we've known for years that cartels are sending recruits for training, and virtually our only filter has been to watch out for gang tattoos.
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