Utopia Talk / Politics / EU health system cancels Astra vaccine

Rugian Member	Mon Mar 15 16:09:19 Continue.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Mon Mar 15 16:31:35 one of the vaccines Trump made...
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 15 16:46:03 Poor seb. His house of socialized medicine has come crashing down around him in a pile of steaming UK incompetence. Promissed track and trace 1 year ago: never came close to working Developed shitty vaccine Lol
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 15 16:47:10 "tumbleweed the wanderer Mon Mar 15 16:31:35 one of the vaccines Trump made... " TW has tested postive for extreme levels of TDS.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 15 17:27:53 Sammy You do know the US is going to fail massively before it reaches 50% fully vaccinated, right? Currently 11% fully vaccinated.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 15 17:36:14 Bagdad jergul has been broken by the superiority of american free enterprise, and the failure of european socialized healthcare.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 15 17:47:00 Like an army of filthy gauls fleeing in disarray before the advancing legions.
Habebe Member	Mon Mar 15 17:52:15 http://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations Total number of vaccination doses administered per 100 people in the total population. This is counted as a single dose, and may not equal the total number of people vaccinated, depending on the specific dose regime (e.g. people receive multiple doses). -------- Total number of vaccination doses administered per 100 people in the total population. This is counted as a single dose, and may not equal the total number of people vaccinated, depending on the specific dose regime (e.g. people receive multiple doses). Compare whatever nations you want, not one single EU nation is doing as well as the US, and as Jergul pointed out the US isnt doing that great, Europe has just epically failed. Even non EU nations like Norway with small populations and plenty of cash which should be easy.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 15 18:00:08 So, should I wait with laughing until Norway has 50% more fully vaccinated people than the US?
Habebe Member	Mon Mar 15 18:00:50 Grasping at straws....yawn.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 15 18:15:43 habebe Not at all. If I wanted to mock you, I would compare our 650 dead to your 500k dead. I have absolutely no faith in your ability to roll out a universal vaccination programme. Congratulations on your first Norwegian Secretary of the Interior btw.
Habebe Member	Mon Mar 15 18:18:30 And yet the US at its current rate could vaccinate your entire nation in a weekend.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 15 18:20:56 The failure of europes socialized medical systems to develop and produce vaccines is being taken very poorly by this forums socialists. Lulz.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 15 18:33:15 Sammy We have already been through this. The problem is not production, nor is it distribution. It is exports. 650 dead to 500k dead suggests that socialized medicine works admirably compared to the shitfest you call health care. You would have had 35k dead with our health care efficiency.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 15 19:10:44 ^weak excuses
jergul large member	Mon Mar 15 19:36:11 Sammy In 6 months, by what metric do you think the US (or any state in the US) will have done better than Norway?
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 15 19:45:23 When you get your american made vaccine jergul, all we ask is that you say thanks.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 15 20:13:58 I am pretty sure we will not be getting any American made vaccines. Its hard to see how Biden can reverse the defence production act before we are done with vaccination. Perhaps in 2022 or 2023 some booster shots might be sourced from the US. It is supposed to be a global market after all.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 15 20:14:26 Don't forget to say thank you for your Norwegian Secretary of the Interior.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 15 20:25:03 "I am pretty sure we will not be getting any American made vaccines." Seems to me you have 2 primarily american options(one with a bit of german help) and one english option, but you just paused the english option. Remember to say thanks.
jergul large member	Mon Mar 15 21:04:47 Well, if you want to be like that. Lets see who actually owns part of these companies: Norwegian State ownership in Astrazenica 48 million dollars Moderna 244 million dollars Johnson&Johnson 273 million dollars Sanofi 333 million dollars Pfizer 2,16 billion dollars You are welcome!
jergul large member	Mon Mar 15 21:16:46 Pulmonary embolism stuff is probably just better diagnostics. Since people are worried, more cases are being caught that would otherwise have been the case. It is usually chronically underdiagnosed unless severe.
Habebe Member	Mon Mar 15 21:23:08 How incompetent must a nation be to own so much of these companies and still can't vaccinate their people. Like if China couldn't get zte phones.
Habebe Member	Mon Mar 15 21:26:57 Let's just be frank here, the US response(s) in general have been getting mocked for a while, now it turns out that wretched system still isnt as bad as Norway or the EU, t deserves mocking. Take your hand, admit their ball dropping anf move on. In terms of lives directly* saved Europe had a better response. Do we have economic comparisons? If I wasnt so lazy I'd probably look up the differences in performance in the last year.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 16 05:47:48 Astrazeneca's fuckups are fueling a massive wave of anti-vaxxer propaganda. Godamnit seb.
jergul large member	Tue Mar 16 06:27:25 habebe You have fully vaccinated 10% of your population. Do you usually declare victory 10 minutes into the first inning of a game? Sammy Oh, that is the excuse you are going to use. Its sebs fault you cant vaccinate people in the US? Pfft.
Habebe Member	Tue Mar 16 06:58:03 Jergul,Again, Ive said before this isn't about how great the US has done and how terrible Europe is doing. Both in the amount vaccinated total and how many daily/weekly your performing. So Im not declaring victory, Im declaring failure. What evidence Do you have that shows rapid improvement?
jergul large member	Tue Mar 16 07:27:03 Habebe No vaccine roll out is going terribly anywhere. Covid-19 - 9 months Polio - 7 years Measles - 9 years Chickenpox - 34 years Mumps - 4 years HPV - 5 years For development alone. Gaining herd immunity for those diseases took decades.
jergul large member	Tue Mar 16 07:29:55 We are trying something new and unheard of. We want to develop, authorise, deploy and gain herd immunity from a disease in a matter of months. Anything under 24 months is actually a miracle.
Habebe Member	Tue Mar 16 07:41:24 Yes, your lucky Trumps plan worked, your welcome for that miracle. Getting shots in arms is on you, so far its a failure.
jergul large member	Tue Mar 16 08:14:22 Habebe Fast vaccine development is a global thing. Getting shots in arm to herd immunity takes decades historically. As you will find out as you fail to do that. Countries with socialized medicine have a fighting chance of getting 75%+ full vaccination rates. You will probably not pass 50% in 2021.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 16 09:34:31 Jergul, US flu coverage is generally c. 50% - I think they will do somewhere between 50% and 75% by end of 2021.
Rugian Member	Tue Mar 16 10:37:10 50% by the END of 2021, are you high? 11.5% of the population is already fully vaccinated and we're currently averaging shots at about 0.5% of the population per day. Even if you want to assume that the rate of administered shots doesn't increase at all and 25% of adults refuse to get the vaccine, we'd still be on track to have 60% of the total population fully vaccinated by Q3 at the latest. Covid and regular flu coverage are not comparable because regular flu doesn't cause the entire world to be shut down. 2/3rds of Americans currently say they will receive the vaccine, and that number will gradually increase with time (provided AstraZeneca can get its shit together and stop being a PR dream for anti-vaxxers).
jergul large member	Tue Mar 16 10:43:35 Seb Adult coverage peaks at 45% Ruggy Are you going on record saying you think more than 165 million people in the US will be fully vaccinated by December 31st 2021?
Rugian Member	Tue Mar 16 10:49:19 Jergul Yes. Provided Pfizer/Moderna/J&J aren't discovered to cause autism or something.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 16 11:06:33 "You will probably not pass 50% in 2021." There are no americans in baghdad!!! 12% by 2020!!! Lol jergul
Seb Member	Tue Mar 16 11:14:13 Jergul: Yeah, but also lots of adults don't bother get vaccinated for flu. I think you are being unduly pessimistic.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Mar 16 11:37:59 Rugian I was thinking the same thing, but then you have to keep in mind, there isn’t this much drama and skepticism about the flu or the flu vaccine, and the seasonal flu isn’t politicized. At least it hasn’t been. 0.5%/day is abysmal. In Sweden the vaccine deliveries decide how quickly we reach the goal, not the capacity to administrate and deliver . In the US, you are stock piling, because you can’t vaccinate quickly enough. That is the marker for health care services ability, not vaccine deliveries. It should be a no brainer, a unified health care system, will often share critical infrastracture that facilitates national distribution of... health care. Even with all the crazy ideas you people have about the health care here, you have to try and remain lucid enough to realize, it excels at the things that need to be done collectively. Like vaccinations for an entire country.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 16 11:41:50 "In the US, you are stock piling, because you can’t vaccinate quickly enough." Wrong.
jergul large member	Tue Mar 16 12:19:35 Seb Low hanging fruit is what is being vaccinated now. I don't think the US medical system can reach more than 50% of its population effectively with the added complication of a double dose required to be fully vaccinated in many, many cases.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Mar 16 12:37:16 Sam "The federal government has delivered about 135.8 million doses to states, territories and federal agencies." "The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said on Monday about 71.1 million people have received at least one dose of a Covid-19 vaccine" It is the US strategy to stockpile.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 16 13:12:20 Nimatzo, many of those 71.1 have recieved 2 doses. About 40M in fact. About 110M doses have been given. Leaving 7-10 days of supply in transit, or waiting to be delivered later this week. Not stockpiling.
Rugian Member	Tue Mar 16 13:22:26 Nim Sam is correct. Speaking for my state, Massachusetts has received 2.8 million doses to date and has used up 2.5 million of them, or 89.4%. Thats not stockpiling.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 16 13:48:28 7-10 days in transit... Pfft.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 16 14:07:04 We did qpperently stockpile a small amount of sebs fucking shitty AZ vaccine, but we wont use it since it sucks too much.
Rugian Member	Tue Mar 16 14:07:57 Why pfft? There's currently 26.8 million doses that have been distributed but not administered. The US is currently administering 2.4 million doses per day, equal to 11 days' worth of shots.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 16 14:12:21 Seb is bad at math, and is desperately seeking excuses for for-profit America's drastically superior vaccine results. A bad combination.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 16 15:55:20 Sam can't tell the difference between strength of an effect Vs it's statistical significance; repeats anti-vax propoganda without question, and can't handle the fact the UKs state system is outperforming the US.
Seb Member	Tue Mar 16 16:05:38 Rugian: Because 11 days to move from factory to arm is incredibly slow.
OsamaIsDaWorstPresid Member	Tue Mar 16 17:20:00 Seb shuld inject da xford vacine in2 his cok if he trustz it so mcuh bet u it clotz and falz off
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 16 20:21:32 Poor seb. Imagine having your mind and trying to understand the world.
habebe Member	Tue Mar 16 20:48:32 "the fact the UKs state system is outperforming the US." In what manner? a share ofnthebpopulation who has received atleast 1 dose they seem to have a slight edge perr 100 people. but the US rate is increasing while the UK rate is not. The UK compared to the EU has dome marvelously ( thank you Brexit?)
Sam Adams Member	Tue Mar 16 21:09:32 The UK is using a shitty vaccine though. So in terms of public protection, the US is way ahead. Btw 3 million shots per day will be delivered next week
Habebe Member	Tue Mar 16 21:16:59 Yeah, the our world in data doesn't differentiate the vaccinnes.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Mar 17 03:18:31 This isn’t correct. Those numbers are a snapshot, or are you guys saying you will and always have had 7-10 days worth of storage? I bet it will grow steadily. Also, the vaccine isn’t available in abundance, but it has been communicated that the intention is and orders have been made to, over the year, accunulate a stockpile. I am exaggerating slightly, you hoarders. The salient point is that, there isn’t the ability or capacity to vaccinate the entire population, that you would have had with a single unified system. You have slowly ramped up to the 2-2.5 million a day. It was less than 1 million a day for the longest time, how many days of transit storage was it then :P
Sam Adams Member	Wed Mar 17 11:23:19 "Those numbers are a snapshot, or are you guys saying you will and always have had 7-10 days worth of storage?" There will always be a gap between the first and last stage of a supply chain.
jergul large member	Wed Mar 17 12:53:52 LOL Sammy. "Distributed" means Fedex has picked up stuff from Federal storage. Not that states have recieved it.
Seb Member	Wed Mar 17 13:52:17 Looks like the UK may be about to bail out the EUs failure to invest adequately in production capacity - we've announced a four week slow down in April where we will be doing second dose only.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Mar 17 15:46:58 Lol plebian vaccines for euers.
jergul large member	Wed Mar 17 16:38:27 Seb That would be the correct move, though frankly, you are way behind on 2nd dosages.
Seb Member	Wed Mar 17 17:31:33 Jergul: Nope. AZ efficacy plateaus at 12 weeks dose separation. Can't remember what the PHE serology study indicates on the Pfizer but it's not a million miles different. Rushing to give people their second dose at four weeks, particularly for AZ, not only limits population protection, but limits individual protection.
Seb Member	Wed Mar 17 17:34:04 As for whether it's the correct move, it depends on what we get for it. The EC did not invest enough in building or supply chain. The lazy grasshopper should offer a favour to his generous Ant neighbor.
jergul large member	Wed Mar 17 18:48:41 Producer guidelines said 3 weeks separation. That is what it has data on. Are you disputing that the EU supplied the UK with 9 million of its 27 million doses?
habebe Member	Wed Mar 17 19:43:39 Currently for FULLY vaccinated per 100 people (meaning, both doses if needed) US- 11.7% Norway- 4.8% Germany- 3.6% UK- 2.5% --------- Atleast one dose given per 100. US-33.11 Norway-13.02 Germany-11.76 UK-39.04 *huge jump* Doses being put in arms weekly per 100 (single dose) 7 day rolling average. US-0.73 Norway-0.25 Germany-0.28 UK-0.57
Seb Member	Thu Mar 18 03:04:24 Jergul: Incorrect. The AZ trial had data on increased gap separation, and the pfizer data from Israel supports longer separation iirc. But in any case, the UK now has a far larger data set than the manufacturers.
Seb Member	Thu Mar 18 03:14:18 RE supplies: Pfizer supplied the UK, not the EU, and UK companies supply feedstock to the Belgian plant. We have a number of vaccine plants that came online last year funded by UK govt and more to come for a range of vaccines (novavax, j&j) UK govt also funded additional production capacity overseas for AZ (e.g. serum institute). Pfizer always wanted a centralised production model, which is fine. Hence the only option is to import, rather than build a new plant. But when you get down to it, while the UK and US and others were directly funding an increased production capacity way back at the first half of last year, all the EC did was sign a bunch of POs for vaccines later on: they are relying on pre-existing or self financed capacity. So why should they expect to have an equal share of capacity that's been directly funded and created by governments and treating privately funded capacity as theirs to appropriate? They may feel they now have to, on the basis that they failed to think through the massively increased demand and this need for increased supply; but essentially that's their failure. The AZ plant in the UK isn't prioritised to UK supply because it's based in Britain, is because the UK directly financed the plant specially to produce vaccine to supply the UK.
habebe Member	Thu Mar 18 04:37:21 Seb, Here is a quick guide for the vaccines. http://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison Pfizer-BioNTech Dosage: Two shots, 21 days apart 95% effective in trials. 100% effective in preventing severe cases. Most difficult to store and transport, super cold. -------- Moderns 94.1% effective 86.6% effective in 65 or older. Dosage: Two shots, 28 days apart less fussy storage in regular freezer. ---------- Johnson and Johnson 72% overall efficacy and 86% efficacy against severe disease in the U.S. Dosage-Once and done. Only requires refrigeration, easiest to store/transport. --------------- AZ 70% effective after 1 dose and 100% effective at the 2nd *for severe cases* Less effective against milder cases. Dosage: Two doses, four to 12 weeks apart ---------- Novavax 89.3% effective Dosage: 2 doses, three weeks apart Easy refrigerator storage.
habebe Member	Thu Mar 18 04:40:45 All with varying degrees of effectiveness aginst variants, but info is more limited.
habebe Member	Thu Mar 18 04:46:33 Also from a business insider article. HOMEPAGE HOME SCIENCE How the 4 biggest COVID-19 vaccines not available in the US compare with those that are Marianne Guenot Mar 11, 2021, 11:26 AM Sputnik V Palestine A health worker with a vial of the Russian Sputnik V vaccine in the Gaza Strip on February 24. Yousef Masoud/SOPA Images/LightRocket via Getty Images Vaccines from the UK, Russia, China, and India are being used elsewhere to fight COVID-19. But they are not available in the US, which has only authorized jabs by US firms. Here is how the compare on metrics like ease of transport, efficacy, and cost. Visit the Business section of Insider for more stories. The US has authorized three types of COVID-19 shot for its vaccine rollout: the Pfizer, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson shots. But they aren't the only options. Around the world, other vaccines are being used, and will likely end up inoculating more people around the world than those used in the US. Non-US shots include Sputnik V (made in Russia), AstraZeneca (made in the UK), Sinovac (from China) and Covaxin ( from India). Here is how they compare with the US-approved vaccines on four key metrics: EFFICACY Pfizer (US): 95% Authorized by the FDA and bolstered by positive real-world data. Moderna (US): 94.1% Authorized by the FDA also supported by good real-world data. Johnson & Johnson (US): 66% Trial results aren't published, but it won authorization from the stringent FDA. AstraZeneca (UK): 62% (though the figure is less straightforward than the others) Authorized by Europe's EMA agency and dozens of others around the world. Sputnik V: 91.6% Authorized in more than 40 countries, though not the US, EU, or UK. Sinovac: Unclear. One trial said 50.4% and another said 91.2%. Authorized in at least 15 countries, including Mexico, Turkey, and Thailand. Covaxin: 81% — it claims. There is no published data, making it hard to say for sure. Authorized only in India, Iran, and Zimbabwe.
Seb Member	Thu Mar 18 05:14:02 Habebe: I'm going by the PHE studies of real world vaccine roll out - any source will be based on interpretation of the data they have seen or authorities they recognize.
habebe Member	Thu Mar 18 05:21:33 Yeah, it's a mix, plus it changes daily. lb VS real world etc. But other than China's , have the others strayed too far off? Not counting variants, because, there is very little evidence.
Paramount Member	Thu Mar 18 07:12:59 They have confirmed now that it was the AstraZeneca vaccine that caused the deaths. So what's up with all this negative reporting about Western vaccine. Is it Putin/Russia?
Habebe Member	Thu Mar 18 07:21:57 Is the threat of blod clots worse than the threat of covid? I was watching Christie Amanpour the other night claim it was 35 deaths out of 17 million vaccines.Is that accurate?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 18 07:37:07 You are actually more likely to die from a lightning strike, than from blood clots due to the AZ vaccine. AZ blood clots 1 in 485 000 US numbers Lightning 1 in 138 849 and for reference my least favorite way to die: Hornet, wasp, and bee stings 1 in 59,507
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 18 07:43:24 And really, considering that people are not actually exposed to lighting strikes, these numbers do not do justice. You are far more likely to die from a lightning strike, if expose to it, than from the vaccine.
Habebe Member	Thu Mar 18 07:58:29 So unless the person has clotting issues to begin with, the vaccine should be continues to be used and just use the other ones as the threat of covid is outweighs the clotting.
Paramount Member	Thu Mar 18 08:10:43 ” You are actually more likely to die from a lightning strike” Okay... BUT would you climb the highest tree during a lightning storm because you are less likely to die by lightning than AZ vaccine?
Paramount Member	Thu Mar 18 08:11:50 Sorry scrap that ... lol I was thinking wrong.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Mar 18 08:17:41 Yes. It that was the case, it would turn into skydiving and base jumping. Lightning riding, they would call it.
Habebe Member	Thu Mar 18 09:29:17 Sounds cool, I'm getting golf ball sized hail and 75 135 mph winds tonight...not quite lightning riding, but mabey some property damage.
Seb Member	Thu Mar 18 09:45:14 Paramount: There is no confirmation that I am aware of. Habebe: Blood clots are a consequence of COVID - indeed that might be the common cause here. Healthcare workers are more likely to have been exposed to covid, may have covid when vaccinted etc.
Paramount Member	Thu Mar 18 10:29:00 Seb, it is a Norwegian expert who claims that the vaccine triggered a death. Professor on suspected vaccine side effects: - The cause has been found The experts who have examined the three hospitalized health workers believe that the AstraZeneca vaccine triggered a strong immune response. One of the health workers died. http://www...ivirkninger-aarsaken-er-funnet
Habebe Member	Thu Mar 18 10:35:59 For sake of argument lets say 35 deaths out of 17 million shots. Did kill people. That safer than eating pizza.
jergul large member	Thu Mar 18 11:39:25 Turns out the blood clots are an immune response. So easily treatable. Habebe What have the Carolinas done that makes God hate them so?
Seb Member	Thu Mar 18 11:48:06 Paramount: EMA disagrees...
Seb Member	Thu Mar 18 17:53:03 So I'm just baffled by what's going on in Europe right now. Halix, the Netherlands based manufacturer of AZ vaccine substance, had been shipping AZ vaccine substance to the UK for filtering and bottling, up to three weeks before the EMA approved AZ vaccine for use in the UK. UK regulatory rules are clones of he EU regulatory rules - there has been no change since brexit. To place a medical on the market, you need both medical approval of the product, and to the manufacturer needs approval (1. is this product safe, 2. do we trust this manufacturer to make this product). MHRA have clearly given Halix the big green stamp to produce the drug substance and place in the UK market. EMA on the other hand, haven't: although AZ have stopped shipping the vaccine substance produced by Halix to the UK, Halix isn't authorised by the EMA yet, so they are sitting on millions, possibly tens of millions, of doses worth of AZ drug substance that needs filtering and bottling but which cannot be legally sent for filtering and bottling until EMA sign off on Halix's supply chain; but which could be used in the UK. Meanwhile, AZ isn't going to ship that to the UK because 1) it would be politically a very dumb thing to do. 2) the guarantees that AZ signed with regards to the their UK supply contract are only that the UK plant could provide the necessary production.* I.e. they have no obligation in the UK correct to supply from the EU site, even though Halix was part of the original consortium and got direct investment from the UK to manufacture the Oxford vaccine before AZ entered the picture.* Ok, so here's the thing that baffles me: The EC wants the UK to release AZ from its contract and thus allow AZ to divert vaccine substance from the UK to the EU, presumably from a factory the EU have not authorised, possibly under some mutual recognition arrangement where the fact MHRA approval of the UK factory is sufficient to allow it's product to be placed on the EU market. But within the EU there is a factory that's operating and sitting on a stock of vaccine that could be used, but isn't, because Halix hasn't provided all the paperwork. And at the same time, if the EMA will accept MHRAs seal of approval on the UK site, and MHRA must have signed off on the Halix site, why isn't that good enough for the EMA? It looks like all of this is a Kafkaesque EC bureaucratic nightmare largely fuled by the ECs utter lack of grip and inability to cut through the crap. In the US and UK and India, the regulators have been working hand in glove to expedite all the necessary regulatory hurdles for vaccine approval and supply chain approvals. It looks like the EMA folks are insisting on "peace time" processes and rather than actively parachuting people into drugs manufacturers to help them sort out approvals, are just sitting behind a desk and sighing and saying "where's the paperwork? *Sigh* this is your problem not mine". *To;Dr the UK set up manufacturing for the Oxford vaccine long before AZ were awarded the exclusive manufacturing license. The terms of the UK govt investment into the plant was first dibs on production. AZt inherited management responsibility for the main UK plant in that licensing arrangement, and the subsequent order for vaccine supply includes a term requiring AZ to guarantee that it can supply the order from the UK plant, along with the mechanism for cutting supply under best reasonable efforts. So AZs problem here is that while the scale up introduced delays, the guarantee means that they can't further underperform the original contract while also sending supply from the UK factory to anywhere else.
Seb Member	Thu Mar 18 17:53:40 *up to three weeks before the EMA approved AZ vaccine for use in the EU
Seb Member	Thu Mar 18 17:57:16 Many many autocorrect fails and I've had a bottle of wine... But you get the jist I hope. Sam, *this* is what a bureaucratic fuck up looks like. My job is normally to go in and knock heads together to sort this kind of shit out and remind the process monkeys that process is about achieving intended outcomes, not a law in itself.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Mar 19 10:43:50 "and remind the process monkeys that process is about achieving intended outcomes, not a law in itself. " This is the first intelligent thing you said in three years.
habebe Member	Fri Mar 19 11:05:56 Jergul, IDK, storm passed over, never came here.I guess my gods were better than the jew god. Seb, "So I'm just baffled by what's going on in Europe right now." Apparently so are the Europeans.
habebe Member	Fri Mar 19 11:05:56 Jergul, IDK, storm passed over, never came here.I guess my gods were better than the jew god. Seb, "So I'm just baffled by what's going on in Europe right now." Apparently so are the Europeans.
habebe Member	Fri Mar 19 11:11:58 Jergul, Scratch that. boiled peanuts. definitely an abomination unto the lord.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Mar 19 11:44:07 Seb "I've had a bottle of wine" *Thu Mar 18 17:57:16 *Raises eye brow.
Seb Member	Fri Mar 19 12:10:39 Sam: That's not intelligent, it is normal. Your problem is that you think this is intelligent and insightful. It is certainly true you will find process monkeys infesting any large organization (including private... legacy banks are terrible for it); the reason you see it as the touchstone for public sector work is that your government has gutted public sector pay and status that you have driven out all the people that are outcome focused. Nim: That's US time, and I'm in London. It was about midnight my time.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Mar 19 12:11:30 But it was still THURSDAY in London? ;)
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Mar 19 12:11:57 Maybe you were off today :)
Sam Adams Member	Fri Mar 19 12:44:19 "Your problem is that you think this is intelligent and insightful." Well its you we are talking about, thus my surprise. Its like when your kid says a new word.
Seb Member	Sat Mar 20 15:44:43 Nim: Nope, I'm just a very high functioning alcoholic ;-) Yeah it's fair to say I was not so happy the next morning. Sam: You know you'd be less suprised if you listened to what I said, rather than making shit up that confirms your own prejudices instead. I'd say you are a victim of group think; but that requires a group and you are clearly deeply antisocial.
Habebe Member	Sat Mar 20 17:56:21 "Nope, I'm just a very high functioning alcoholic ;-)" Aren't most Brits?
Seb Member	Sat Mar 20 18:19:37 Pretty much.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Mar 22 13:33:01 http://www...es/ar-BB1eODgv?ocid=uxbndlbing AstraZeneca’s coronavirus vaccine was supposed to be the shot that dug the world out of the pandemic: a cheap, easy-to-administer dose that would protect not just citizens of wealthy nations but also those in the most vulnerable countries. Instead, the inoculation, a collaboration between University of Oxford researchers and one of the world’s biggest drug companies, has been plagued with missteps as other vaccine rollouts gain speed. First, there was confusing basic science. Then missed delivery targets. Now, a confidence-sapping pause in Europe that followed reports of rare blood clots among a handful of the vaccinated. If the stakes hadn’t been so high, the AstraZeneca saga might have felt like a soap opera, with soaring moments of scientific brilliance undercut by embarrassing mistakes. The Oxford team that developed the vaccine was bold — but also appeared arrogant to many scientists on both sides of the Atlantic. Had the rollout of the AstraZeneca vaccine been handled differently, it might have been available far more widely by now, blunting a new wave of death and disease that is threatening lives around the world. Countries that have administered it widely, such as Britain, credit AstraZeneca with helping drive a dramatic drop in hospitalizations and deaths. But public confidence in the company’s vaccine has taken a major hit, slowing its acceptance and delaying the battle against the pandemic. Nowhere have the consequences been clearer than in Europe, which bet heavily on AstraZeneca vaccine doses but has received just a third of what was promised. Now, many countries are shutting down yet again as the more contagious coronavirus variant first spotted in Britain races across the continent. Hungary broke records for deaths and cases Friday. France imposed a strict new shutdown in much of the country. Germany’s cases were up 50 percent last week. And opinion polls suggest public willingness to get an AstraZeneca vaccine is dropping.
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