Utopia Talk / Politics / Iran & Israel

Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Apr 13 08:12:57 I think they will trade some serious blows soon. Iranian conservatives are enjoying a record high support at the moment. Iranian liberals are toothless and have not manages to do anything material. In all honesty, they can’t. Imagine if the Christian right, owned the supreme court, vetted all the candidates running for congress, manages 30% of the US economy, major government institutes and the marines corps. Anyway that is the reality and the fact that the US withdrew has not endeared it to the general Iranian population. The leading candidate for the upcomming predidential election is a fairly young (50), former IRGC commander and civil engineer, Saed Mohamadi, who led their engineering corps. There is that silver lining in his IRGC backgrouns, he didn’t blow stuff up, he built roads, bridges and railways. He has the backing of Khamenei. Something was in store to happen during 2020 after the assassination of Soleimani, but then covid happened. With the Arabs proven to be useless again on the battlefields in Syria and Yemen, their alignment with Israel, and Iran cementing her financial alliance with China, things are brewing. The board is set for a show down. Discuss.
jergul large member	Tue Apr 13 09:04:14 Does not Iran need to lend lease a 60-80 nuclear warheads from North Korea first?
Seb Member	Tue Apr 13 09:07:28 Suspect Iran will be held in check by China until it makes a bid for Taiwan. Of course it could go the other way, Iran first, US commits, then China goes for Taiwan.
jergul large member	Tue Apr 13 09:14:46 Seb How many times does Israel have to attack Iran in your mind for it to be the aggressor in any conflict, and not Iran? Iran enriching to 60% it just said, so maybe not lend-lease after all. Nimi More seriously, is not the "conflict" playing out nicely for both Iraniand and Israeli hardliners? Some covert stuff goes down every time someone in Israel needs to win an election seems like a win-win to me.
Paramount Member	Tue Apr 13 09:30:07 The only thing that will bring peace and stability to the region is if Iran get nukes. Israel will then hesitate to attack Iran and to murder Iranians. Perhaps Israel will also hesitate to attack its other neighbors, like it regurarly does. Anyhow, I would seriously laugh if Iran dropped a couple of nukes over Israel and Netanyahu next time Israel carried out a terrorist attack on Iran.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Apr 13 09:42:44 Jergul and paramount showcasing why israel can morally and legally use any weapon they choose to prevent iranian nukes. Thanks for the support.
jergul large member	Tue Apr 13 10:26:36 Sammy How do you figure? Is that your position on gun ownership too? Anyone who has a gun is a legal and moral target?
jergul large member	Tue Apr 13 10:27:22 Actually, you are arguing that anyone who might at some point in time try to build a gun is a legal and moral target for all existing gun owners.
Sam Adams Member	Tue Apr 13 11:01:54 Any criminal with a gun is a legal and moral target, indeed.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Apr 13 11:14:44 Jergul The hardliners are not only winning, they are setting the agenda.
jergul large member	Tue Apr 13 11:20:13 Sammy Well, for as long as you don't mind increase US well fare to Israel from 10s of billions to 100ds of billion per year, then of course pushing for conflict is fine. Nimi I would not blame the embargo alone for that, but how could the hardliners lose against the backdrop of maximum pressure?
Habebe Member	Tue Apr 13 13:11:10 If need be I dont think Israel will hesitate to turn Iran into glass craters. conventionally they have the support of the Egyptians and Saudis backed by US logistics like the new "black jack" thats coming.
Habebe Member	Tue Apr 13 13:12:15 Jergul, Would you prefer appeasement? history tells us how that works out.
jergul large member	Tue Apr 13 15:12:41 How does that work out? Pakistan, India, North Korea and Israel seem quite happy with their nuclear arsenals. Why would Iran be any different?
chuck Member	Tue Apr 13 16:53:53 Habibi has a raging iran-on.
Habebe Member	Tue Apr 13 17:02:54 Jergul, Iran is a terrorist state that hates my country. I only like terrorist nations that are cool with my country.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Apr 14 01:38:02 And that makes you, terrorist enablers, ain’t no two way about it.
Habebe Member	Wed Apr 14 02:25:10 Nimatzo, Isn't everyone? I mean we can argue to what varying degree, but no modern nation on earth has clean hands.
Habebe Member	Wed Apr 14 02:46:47 Lets be frank about shit. In this sense, we are mostly talking about Israel, Saudi Arabia and Iran. But yes it could spider web out. All three nations have dirty hands, but no one is the villian in their own story. Outside of SA the SA government doesn't actively terrorize the world. However indirectly it could very well be argued they have inspired several groups most people would consider "terrorist classic" Iran controls Hezzbollah, who while similar to terrorist classic, does not generally* terrorize outside the ME. It gets hairy though when you take foreign hostages. But again, it still gets hairier with the Shah, both sides claiming they are in the "right". Israel, holy fuck that's a hairy mess. For starters Europe started that whole ball rolling what with the holocaust and the creation pf Israel on whatbthe PA claims is their land. Then the territory Israel won by wars and what they just slowly edged into. But ( lots of those) out of those three only one is currently trying to gain nuclear weapons with the goal of genocide....so picl ypur poison.
Paramount Member	Wed Apr 14 03:36:06 Let’s be frank about this shit. Only one of them actually has nuclear weapons: 1. Israel Two of them are guilty of genocide: 1. Saudi Barbaria and their sunni terrorists ISIS and Al-Qaida who has massacred civilians not only in the ME but also in America and Europe (Israel has actually aided the al-Qaida fighters too, giving them medical care. Both Saudi and Israel has probably aided them in many others way too. Providing intel, and supplying them with weapons, vehicles, etc. 2. Israel’s genocide on the Palestinian population
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Apr 14 03:39:20 "Outside of SA the SA government doesn't actively terrorize the world." They finance the construction of wahabi mosques everywhere and they have been terrorizing Syria and Yemen for years now. Before that they enabled Iraq into an entity that had to be vanquished. They lack brinksmanship, political intelligence, military ability, unless these are the American diplomatic clout, intelligence and military. Saudi Arabia is to the USA, what fascist Italy was to Nazi germany, not even dead weight, but an active disaster generator. I lost count how many times the Germans had to rescue the Italians. There was not a military campaign that Italians couldn't mess up. Let's face it, the USA does not want independant allies, but docile idiots who just nod their heads. Do you realize the treachery of the Arabs, against their own kin regarding Palestine? Not that I am taking sides, but observe the decades upon decades that the Arabs invested in the Palestinian cause, *far noise* gone just like that. These people would sell their own mothers to stay in power. That is a key take away. Iran will never be that, Iran has never been that. Remember, Iran forcibly converted the entire country into a minority sect of Islam, to safeguard independence from the Ottomans, who are the cultural extension of Iran and Muslim neighbors. That is how seriously Iran takes independence. Read Iranian history, what other culture/people have gone through all that and remained? Maybe the Greeks? Iran was never and will never be a "westernized" country. It can be an ally, but even that alliance must be viewed through the lens of Iran's history, as the OG of western rivals. The west tracks her cultural history to the Romans and Greeks, the people Iranians battled and competed against. Even the Ottomans, being a persianized culture, where in many aspects, an extension of the Iranian cultural heritage. I say rivals and not "mortal enemies", but sometimes rivalry becomes toxic and an existential threat, that is bug, not a feature. These are important things for you, the USA and the west to understand. You are not going to force Iran into submission. Short of actually glassing the country, which is simple never going to happen outside of Sam's wet dreams. Iran simply is not stupid like in Sam's dreams.
Habebe Member	Wed Apr 14 04:28:23 Paramount, Uhm, you can do better. Nimatzo, "They finance the construction of wahabi mosques everywhere and they have been terrorizing Syria and Yemen for years now. " Yes I pointed that out.They fund religious organizations that have caused undisputed terrorism. But let me ask you this, do you think the current Prince for example is pleased with these groups and is happy they do their acts? And intent clearly matters. We have all used Saudi oil, does that make us a part of it? Are you claiming SA is guilty of negligence? For that matter the US and EU nations have funded and weaponized similar amd sometimes the dame groups. Not with the intent they jihad civilians. "Let's face it, the USA does not want independant allies, but docile idiots who just nod their heads. " Vassal states. Not unique to the US. "These people would sell their own mothers to stay in power. That is a key take away. Iran will never be that, Iran has never been that. " What?! Iran invaded Iraq using their children as wave attackers, knowing they would die, even giving them "keys to heaven", to stay in power. How is Irans regime somehow more noble ( which seem implied), Unless I'm mistaken. No one wants the hpuse of Said to abdicate power. The wahabiists wouldtake over, and no one wants that.Again they have an odd system where the Saudis is actually an power sharing agreement between the wahabiists and the Saud family. " These are important things for you, the USA and the west to understand. You are not going to force Iran into submission. Short of actually glassing the country, which is simple never going to happen outside of Sam's wet dreams. Iran simply is not stupid like in Sam's dreams." No, but, Israel is a little crazy and gives no fucks. Admittedly they are sort of to the US what NK is to China, except competent. Like I said in the last thread, it really comes down to two things. 1. Foundational differences that can not be resolved. 1a. Iran wants Israel obliterated and despises the US for interfering anywhere in the ME ( even well oitside their territory by welcoming nations) 2.A limeny snickets, that led to the current allignement of ME. The Shiite just dont play well with others.They hate the Sunni because they dont beleice in kings, they jate Israel because they are Jews and they hate the US because they beleive the ME is their manifest destiny so to speak.How does one makenpwace with that when the other side ( Israeli/Arab Alliance) strategically offers us more and doesn't routinely call for our death?
Habebe Member	Wed Apr 14 04:32:27 If a klansmen and a 1 percenter are neighbors, How does one get them to get along? Neither believed thenother has thw right to exist in their core belief system. I dont hate Iranians but I have strong feelings about their regime.
Habebe Member	Wed Apr 14 04:34:50 Btw, Not the best analogy (mine) but it serves its purpose.
jergul large member	Wed Apr 14 06:45:32 "Saudi Arabia is to the USA, what fascist Italy was to Nazi germany, not even dead weight, but an active disaster generator." !
Paramount Member	Wed Apr 14 07:08:06 ” Iran invaded Iraq ” - habebe The Iran–Iraq War was a protracted armed conflict that began on 22 September 1980 when Iraq invaded neighbouring Iran. ” Iran wants Israel obliterated” - habebe Iran’s enemy is the Zionist regime. Iran’s regime would be happy to see them Zionists gone. Iran has no beef with Jews per say.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Apr 14 09:11:40 Habebe ” But let me ask you this, do you think the current Prince for example is pleased with these groups and is happy they do their acts?” This is the wrong question. Why would he be pleased with people who want to overthrow him and are his enemies? e.g the fact that the Iranian mullahs are not pleased with the Prince isn’t an argument for or against anyone. The enemy is the enemy, it says nothing about my moral standing. We judge them by their actions and in action he is a brutal dictator in a not-even-pseudo-democracy like say Iran or Russia. ”No, but, Israel is a little crazy and gives no fucks.” They give plenty of fucks. Otherwise they would have done it already. There is a significant Iranian-Jewish population in Israel that provides nuance. ”1. Foundational differences that can not be resolved.” You were wrong then as you are now. The 180 pivot on Israel by the arabs is a testament to how fundamenta these issues are. Not very much at all. Iran doesn’t gives a shit about Palestine, they way the USA gives a shit about Saudi Arabia. It is a strategic location for furthering your influence. Certainly all these matter, the borders and status of Palestine all have resolutions. The tragedy, is that you, and many like you (the hardliners), want to view these rivalries between empires as a battle between good and evil. That is almost always an escalation to a worse state, that diverges from reality. And then you convince yourself there is no other option. ”The Shiite just dont play well with others.” Iranians, we are talking about twelver shias, and that is Iran and her militias. They play just fine with others, but they have ambitions and a chip on their shoulder 2500 years big. The revolution was messy, what revolution isn’t? Problem is, these excesses from the revolution and the history that led there, put everyone on a path that becomes self-fulfilling and hard to change.
Habebe Member	Wed Apr 14 13:49:28 Paramount, They crossed into Iraqi territory after Saddaam was repelled. As for Israelis, perhaps debatable. They seem to make a very clear distinction with the US regime and citizens. Perhaps I've missed that distinction with Israel? Nimatzo, "We judge them by their actions and in action he is a brutal dictator in a not-even-pseudo-democracy like say Iran or Russia." Bit how can we then assign blame to SA for its indirect* financial support of said groups? They fund mosques and learning centers. We don't hold the US accountable for religious nutjobs neca2use we grant them tax protections. Now the West has armed and trained these groups....that gets hairy. "They give plenty of fucks. Otherwise they would have done it already. There is a significant Iranian-Jewish population in Israel that provides nuance." Actually, I completely concede that point. They do give fucks.Or they lack capability. "You were wrong then as you are now. The 180 pivot on Israel by the arabs is a testament to how fundamenta these issues are. Not very much at all. Iran doesn’t gives a shit about Palestine, they way the USA gives a shit about Saudi Arabia. It is a strategic location for furthering your influence. Certainly all these matter, the borders and status of Palestine all have resolutions." Your attributing the governments of SA and Israel actions to that of Iran.SA and Israel have always been more willing haggle. For Iran it seems to me like their version of manifest destiny. I could be wrong. This all goes back Iran striking a shirty deal with the Brits over oil. Then they reneged and said now its all our oil cause its on our land (mosadeq?) The US/UK tried diplomacy, Iran was stubborn. So yadda yadda and the Anglos threw a coup....yadda yadda. Both sides again seen themselves as being wronged. Both sides felt exploited by the other. My personal belief is that the two sides have fundamentally different views on philosophy amd the role of property ownership. In this case the Iranians have a similar view to modern Euro standards and the US/UK view holds another ( anti nationalisation) " The tragedy, is that you, and many like you (the hardliners), want to view these rivalries between empires as a battle between good and evil. That is almost always an escalation to a worse state, that diverges from reality. And then you convince yourself there is no other option." I dont see Iran as evil. I don't see the Iranian regime as just evil.I see them in a simalr light as I do ISIS and snake handlers etc.. Religious fundamentalists who see themselves as noble, in pursuit dogmatically trudging along towards their goals. Because of this perceived nobility they do act accordingly and try to stear clear of certain bad behaviour like targeting civilians. "Iranians, we are talking about twelver shias, and that is Iran and her militias. They play just fine with others, but they have ambitions and a chip on their shoulder 2500 years big." Marathon? The West has a peculiar view of the world. Its not used to losing to outsiders. Persia historically other than the West is the only great power that really successful colonised, and that was parts of Africa. The West has always fought amongst itself and only united against outsiders. This internal competition is looked at with a sense of pride and gave rise to great military strategy and technology. Even the Romans, who did they lose to? The Germans which was western barbarians. I think the Soviets are the closest to holding western territory for any extended period and they are still half western. And talk about an independant streak, time and time again the West has shown it would rather die than bend the knee to outsiders. Eastern civilizations tend to favor less in fighting than the West who sees it as a strength.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Apr 14 15:11:20 "Bit how can we then assign blame to SA for its indirect* financial support of said groups?" The same way we assign blame to Iran, for its' indirect support of the Houthis? What do you even mean? I am not saying the moral difference between what Iran does vs Saudi Arabia, is that both countries want to spread their influence, directly and indirectly. In that regard there is no difference, the difference is what they are spreading. And you already know, I am not a cheerleader for religion, Islam has a perticular place in my personal hell, but even so I can without hesitation say that the Twelver shia Islam of Iran is INFINITELY better than Wahabism. There is no contest. The Shia Islam of Khomeini allows for a walled garden type of democracy, a democracy in name only, not worth the name IMO, but once my personal emotions temper, these are the fact: Iran has an actual system of governance where the officials are elected and not the family of Khamenei, Iran has independant institutions from before the 1979 revolution, an actual track record of election. A tradition of demoracy-ish slowly forming, creating those layers you need to have a real democracy some day. Iran is one penstroke away, from having the frame work of a real democracy. None of these things are true about Saudi Arabia, who just recently allowed women to DRIVE CARS and leave the house without male guardians. Even the name Saudi Arabia, in arabic, denotes that it is the Arabia of the (family) Saud. Saudi Arabia is in spirit and in many aspects a feudal state. This is the differences between wanting to travel to China, but you end up on Alpha Centauri. Which ideology I or anyone sane would want to influence the middle east, is as I often say "a no brainer". Despite me wanting nothing else than the unraveling of the Islamic republic. Because I already know, Islamic republic, Pahlavi or Sassanid dynasty, Iran has always influenced the region as the oldest surviving power of the region. Or as Iranian nationalists say "these were all our lands". These are historical facts: Yemen was a Sassanid colony, Syria was the border with Rome, Iraq was the heart (and capital province) of the Iranian empire and Afghanistan/central Asia are the Persian culture's heartland. These are all the domains of the Iranian hegemony or the Iranian version of "manifest destiny". We can desire a better ideology to rule Iran, I grant you, but Saudi Arabia is not a contender and we should be happy Iran is undermining their attempts to export wahabism. "My personal belief is that the two sides have fundamentally different views on philosophy amd the role of property ownership." Mossadeq is after Britain and the Soviets invaded Iran to secure the oil fields and create a corridor to transport US arms. The shitty deal of APOC had been running for almost 2 decades. Iranian nationalism, as you can imagine, went into high gear after that. At any rate, there is no difference here versus Saudi Arabia, ARAMCO is state owned. So this doesn't seem to be a factor in the US/Saudi marriage. I am sure you would be quite sympathetic to the Iranian nationalists if you read the details of these belief you have. Iranians were worried and protective the same way you are protective of your country and her assests in relation to CHYNA! These are easy dots to connect. Wouldn't you have philosophical differences with people who invaded your country, or question their understanding of "property rights"?
Forwyn Member	Wed Apr 14 15:14:39 "They crossed into Iraqi territory after Saddaam was repelled." Who gives a shit? Why is an aggressive retaliation worse than an unjustified invasion, especially when they spent years getting gassed?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Apr 14 15:21:08 What is your stance on Trump banning Chinese companies in the USA? Well that is the stance of Iranian habebe. You and him do not have deep existential disagreements.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Apr 14 15:26:09 "They crossed into Iraqi territory after Saddaam was repelled." You invaded 2 countries after some airplanes crashed. What the hell does this even mean? Was the war unilaterally over, because Iraq failed? This is not even true, Iraq was repelled in the south where they made most gains into strategic areas, parts of northern Iran were occupied from the onset of hostilities uninterrupted until the weeks after the peace deal. Can we really blame Iran for desiring regime change against Saddam? I mean, the USA eventually had to do it. At least Iran wanted regime change in the country that attacked it, like unambiguously, not some far fetched bullshit.
Habebe Member	Wed Apr 14 15:27:01 Forum, I didnt say it was worse.Paramount had said that it wad Iraq who had invaded solely. The Iranians retaliated with an invasion. I never said one is worse.Only that neither had clean hands in attempts to hold onto power. Nimatzo, I havn't yet read your big post, I will shortly and respond. As for Trump and Chinese companies, its apples and oranges. The Chinese have been banning US companies like Facebook for years, Trump responded in kind. The UK afaik did not ban Iranian companies from the British Empire.
Habebe Member	Wed Apr 14 15:29:20 Nimatzo, Go back to what the was in response to. You claimed the Arabs wpuld sell their mothers to retain power. All I was claiming was that Iran does not have clean hands either or any moral superiority as I thought you implied.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Apr 14 15:34:11 There is this myth going around that, as soon as Iran kicked Iraq out of Khuzestan, the war should have ended. In what universe do wars work like this? The Japanese tried to sue for peace multiply times, but the blood thirsty Americans kept sending young soldier to their death, seeking the ultimate defeat of Japan and revenge for the dingies that blew up in Hawaii. Narratives are fun :)
Forwyn Member	Wed Apr 14 15:36:04 The march to Berlin was unjustified
Habebe Member	Wed Apr 14 15:40:45 "The same way we assign blame to Iran, for its' indirect support of the Houthis?" Uhm, no. Funding rebels os entirely different from building relogipus schools. Iran is to the Houthis what Bin Laden was to the US ( to fight the Soviets) in that case the US has dirty hands. "but even so I can without hesitation say that the Twelver shia Islam of Iran is INFINITELY better than Wahabism. There is no contest." The difference IMO is that in Iran the fanatics are in full charge. In SA the Kings brokered a shared deal to split power. Plus from my perspective I see SA trying to tame their crazies. Iran puts them in as the unquestioned leaders.
Habebe Member	Wed Apr 14 15:51:19 Forwyn, Again , I didn't say that Iran was even unjustified in invading. Only that they cant claim some absolut moral high ground ocer the Arabs who " would sell their mothers tomhold onto power" since Iran sent its kids to invade Iraq, to hold onto power. Nimatzo, The same ^. Iran likely was better off invading back. But you then can't claim the Arabs are morally inferior " sell their mothers" to Iran. I would even argue that wahabiists from my POV are generally prefferable to Iranian Shia of 12 in that SA has much better ties with the US, than Iran. The Shia of 12 would never allow US military to chill in Iran, it wouldn't happen. Whether that is because of a limeny snickets of history or a core beleif at this point is meaningless.
Habebe Member	Wed Apr 14 15:57:30 Nimatzo, I apologize for the scattered responses. I had my.brother stopping by and quick responses in the thread. "None of these things are true about Saudi Arabia, who just recently allowed women to DRIVE CARS and leave the house without male guardians. Even the name Saudi Arabia, in arabic, denotes that it is the Arabia of the (family) Saud. " This is within the Saudi Kingdom.Frowned upon, yes. But they are not forcing this on the Americans in their military bases for example. Nationalization is frowned upon more so bybthe Anglonpowrs. G2g, brother is here ( he is an as)
Habebe Member	Wed Apr 14 16:29:25 The fat duck is gone.... Can't stand him.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Apr 14 16:32:07 My friend. If you would have said Turkey, I couldn't be having this discussion with you, Turkey is by every metric a better place than Iran at the moment, I might get a summer home there, like 50/50 between Portugal and Turkey. But hey, there is another country who likes to go her own way, that your country has been having problems with lately. Hmm, I don't know about you, but I want to pin it on their Persian heritage of fierce independence :) How else would such a young culture rise to prominence and stand against Europe and remain against Russia? Because the seeds of their culture is older and firmer than the mere span of the Ottoman empire. If you don't believe me, believe my dad. My dad is a never-Islamic-republic kind of person. I can't remember a single good word he has had to say about the Islamic republic (*why would you really?), the revolution ruined his life and the projected career he would have had in art and academia. Destroyed the dreams he had worked for from he was 12. But when I pressed him and asked, well if you had to choose between Iran or Saudi Arabia which would you choose? He just flicked his hand at me and went "get out of here, you can't compare with wahabis, if there was a place worse than Iran, it is Saudi Arabia.. and North Korea, these people are even more backwards, not by much, but still there is a difference". lol :) In Iran there is another identity running in the cultural software, the Iranian aryan heritage, that has some very ancient affinity with the rest of Europe. The one I mostly identify with, the identity of Zoroaster, Darius, Khosrow, the 1000 years of Persian hegemony from the Oxus to the Euphrates, before Islam. An identity that today has a secular nationalist character and that tempers the shia nutbags, it has tempered and formed Twelver shia Islam for 400 years. Obviously this identity is not the dominant one at the moment, but it is hanging in their, like it did against the Greeks, Romans, the Arab and Mongol hordes, the armies of Teimur, Russia and Britain. It will prevail. There is no second identity in Saudi Arabia, it is the home of the Prophet, Mecca and Medina. Whatever trace their was of a pre-Islamic civilization in the region, the Saudis have leveled with the ground. Islam, specifically wahabism is the only cultural export of Saudi Arabia. Even at an asbtract level a monoculture, with an ideological framework that is hostile to all outside influence and innovation within the ideology (wahabism 101), would be percieved by most people as hostile to theirs and every other way of life. Where this hostility towards other cultures exists in Iran, in exists in a reality that there are Zoroastrian and Jewish temples and Christian churches in Iran. I will never defend it, but there are your degrees of hell and you have chosen the one level of hell, the is objectively hotter, than the hell I escaped from. *Oh that's right, because Iran is being compared to Saudi Arabia.
Habebe Member	Wed Apr 14 18:09:53 Clearly it should bw Portugal. The ham is delicious. Something about acorns? Im not well versed in Turkey atm. I find it confusing to follow, with so many interests in there. " My dad is a never-Islamic-republic kind of person" Reminds me of.my Iranian buddies dad. He left after the revolution, lost his business and started a new one here. But not fans of SA either. The house of Saud struck a deal with the clerics as a compromise. Two factions in one. I see much greater potential in Iran. But the leadership is more stubborn to our western values. The Saudis welcome US business. And we both agree alot of individual events snowballed into this current alignment. Watched a good breakdown recently from an Iranian ( until he was 10) he also has talks on Brexit and stuff. I'll try to see of I cam find it. Not that you need it, im sire your mich more up to date on Iranian affairs than I am. It was still enjoyable.
Habebe Member	Wed Apr 14 18:12:21 That said, Id like to see a more Iranian view of the Greco-Persian wars, would be interesting.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Apr 15 04:36:09 "Funding rebels os entirely different from building relogipus schools." It isn't as far as harm goes, it depends on what is being exported. Besides who hasn't funded rebels? Saudi Arabia? USA? Britain? Russia? Everyone does it. You have heard this: I will get rid of my guns, when everyone else have gotten rid of their guns. I will stop funding rebels, when you stop helping rebels all around me. Take a look at the map, and see where Iran funds rebels and where the USA funds rebels. Tell me your response, if Iran started funding rebels in Venezuela and Mexico. Part of how shitty and unstable a country is, correlates with how shitty and unstable the neighboring countries are, this is a studied phenomena , but also intuitive. "Iran is to the Houthis what Bin Laden was to the US ( to fight the Soviets) in that case the US has dirty hands." I can't think of any analogies. The houthis are Shia so there are religious/cultural ties. According to legend, the Houthis are the descendants of the Persian Zoroastrian soldiers that Khosrow I brought their to defeat Axum and annex Yemen. How true that is, I have no idea, but it is certainly a plausible narrative that has survived the ages. Yemen was in fact where the Shah (together with the west) militarily intervened during the 70's against Marxists rebels. Iran was here on the same side as Saudi Arabia, together with the same peoples that eventually became the Houthis. So, Iran has a long tie to Yemen, slightly older than Islam. "The difference IMO is that in Iran the fanatics are in full charge. In SA the Kings brokered a shared deal to split power." These deals, contingent on one man are inherently unstable. We are essentially hoping that the Saudi People never wake up and think for themselves and demand participation in the administration of their country. I neither believe that to be realistic nor hope for it. "since Iran sent its kids to invade Iraq, to hold onto power." habebe, these things are only "interesting" because you keep saying there are deep and fundamental philosophical differences. Then when we get into the details, you seem to come to terms with the fact that Iran has not done anything, the USA hasn't done herself, or that the allies of the USA don't do. These exchanges completely undermine your arguments that, "we can't play because foundational differences". They simply do not exist and are constructions after the fact in the vein of the fox and the grapes. A deal can not be made, well the grapes were probably sour anyway... I mean I am talking in terms of degrees in hell, we are long past "clean hands". As I explained the moral difference, is in the cultural exports of Iran and Saudi Arabia. I am biased of course, but at the same time I have a hard time imagining many Europeans or Americans not agreeing with me. What do you want to spread in the ME, Iranian/Shia culture, or Wahabism? "Only that the.y cant claim some absolut moral high ground ocer the Arabs who " would sell their mothers tomhold onto power" since Iran sent its kids to invade Iraq, to hold onto power." That isn't my point, no one has clean hands, is my point. No culture with empirical ambitions will have clean hands. The point is that your countries problem with Iran and China, have literally nothing to do do with philosophical differences, it is a simple competition over the same objectives. "But they are not forcing this on the Americans in their military bases for example." The Iranian constitution does not allow for foreign countries to build and operate military bases on Iranian soil. "Arabs are morally inferior" I thought it was clear in the context, but my comment was in relation to the ruling elite of Saudi Arabia, the princes and the wahabi clergy, the ideology. When tyrants have no one to answer to, the only objective is power, yes they will sell their own mothers. Which was figurative for throwing the Palestinians under the bus, after 60 years of being the symbolic Muslim issue (deep foundational differences we would say 30 or ever 5 years ago). They have come to terms with that fact that their days are numbered facing in Iran alone. They know they have a significant Shia minority in SA.
jergul large member	Thu Apr 15 05:31:39 One of the main drivers is the US need for external enemies.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Apr 15 06:10:07 I would say that applies to Iran and really many culture contending for hegemony. This need or at least the gate to an external enemy exist pretty far back in the Iranian cultural narrative. It speaks of Iran and "Aniran" (non-Iranian lands). I mention it, because not every culture has these depiction in their narrative.
jergul large member	Thu Apr 15 06:22:38 You sure? In-out predates nations by huge margins. Even my cat has a firm grasp of the concept :)
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Apr 15 06:50:40 Your cat also has a concept of external enemies though, that drives it to do a bunch cat stuff, chiefly, marking and defending territory. I take your point though, every culture can make these things up as needed based on rather crude naturally occurring divisions. In this specific context, I am arguing, Iran has the same driver and that it isn't a seedling in the cultural narrative. It is on the hardliner part of the spectrum of course, liberal Iranians are not fearful of Aniran.
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