Utopia Talk - Politics - cop shooting of 13-yr old

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Utopia Talk / Politics / cop shooting of 13-yr old

tumbleweed
the wanderer Thu Apr 15 16:51:13
poor video:
http://twitter.com/pdbrutality/status/1382803667976396805

can possibly see a gun in his right-hand during at 3-sec (scrubbing frames... when area behind his back first visible when cop turning)

not clear to me if in his hand still when he raises them... he -seems- to be doing what officer saying to do... but i'll consider other opinions

tumbleweed
the wanderer Thu Apr 15 16:53:05
that scrubbing still frame looking like this:
http://pbs...Agk-K8?format=jpg&name=900x900

swordtail
Anarchist Prime Thu Apr 15 16:53:31
http://www.chicagocopa.org/case/2021-1112/

tumbleweed
the wanderer Thu Apr 15 17:35:24
the "BWC 1 | Shooting Officer" video at swordtail's link is longer & better quality (although i don't see any obvious new gun info... doesn't seem to still be in his hands to me)

shooting just after 2 min mark

i can see how it might make cop nervous, but also seems like what one would do to surrender

Y2A
Member Thu Apr 15 18:11:53
the officer was the victim according to the original case report.

http://www...ginal-Case-Report_REDACTED.pdf

0550 - Assault - Aggravated Police Officer - Handgun

Injury Info (STILLMAN,Eric7—#19277 - Victim )
Type
Injury Extent: Minor
Injury Reason: Ill
Person: STILLMAN Eric
Injury Cause: Other
Hospital: Rush University
Medical Center

tumbleweed
the wanderer Thu Apr 15 19:20:53
CNN has been pretty generous to the cops on this one, showing the still frames of gun that cops put out and no still frames of hands up, plus some experts saying it seems justified (none noting him putting empty hands up... granted it was split second decision-making)

tumbleweed
the wanderer Thu Apr 15 21:14:25
gun was on far side of fence a few feet up so apparently tossed through the opening when he was putting hands up... definitely an attempt to surrender, not sure if cop should be expected to realize it or not

obaminated
Member Thu Apr 15 21:41:37
I wonder why cnn isnt stoking fires of riots while biden is pres...

Cherub Cow
Member Fri Apr 16 06:44:33
""BWC 1 | Shooting Officer" video at swordtail's link"

Very sad stuff... The officer seeing the pistol, telling him to drop it, taking the shot, trying to do chest compressions while waiting for an ambulance that he knew wasn't getting there fast enough, letting someone else take over, seeing the light flash at the pistol's location, then staring into a vacant lot while shaking back and forth. He knew he'd killed him and that it was a young person. Maybe he was thinking of the kid's family and wishing that he'd made a different call — had he waited a fraction of a second. That's the exact cliché nightmare scenario that police worry about: killing a kid. I think the officer that was following him around ("BWC 2 | Witness Officer") was thinking the same. Her camera showed him crying at the end.

Nekran
Member Fri Apr 16 07:08:59
Jesus... "show me your fucking hands!", kid turns around with hands up... *blam*

I'm baffled that anyone thinks this is some sort of grey area?

patom
Member Fri Apr 16 07:31:18
Don't you just love mama crying about the loss of her sweet young son? That cop should have known that he was only 13 years old and out roaming the streets at 2:30 in the morning on a school night.

Nekran
Member Fri Apr 16 08:04:47
His age doesn't even come into it... telling someone to stop and show you their hands and then shooting them the second they do that, is insane.

Not exactly a commercial for cooperating with the police.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Fri Apr 16 08:12:07
It is a tragedy. Running away from the cops, with a gun in your hands, in the middle of the night, are all complicating factors that increases the risk of getting shot, even when surrendering. The margin for error is smaller than what the vast majority of people can hope to stay on the right side of. It bega the question, should we expect that the margin of error for a cop, is to take a bullet?

Nekran
Member Fri Apr 16 08:18:46
I did not see a gun in his hand in that video... that would make this içncident at least understandable.

But yeah, I'm of the opinion that part of the cops' job is taking those risks. You don't use lethal force when you're not sure that it's necessary. It's a simple as that.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Fri Apr 16 09:07:37
See TW’s second link. He threw the gun, almost in the same movement he raised his hands and it is on the side of his body that is turned away and concealed by the fence. Impossibly tragic situation.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Fri Apr 16 09:20:36
I don’t know how realistic it is to expect a 45 year old father or mother of two, to be willing to take a bullet just to err on the side of caution, when a significant portion of their job is to deal with really dangerous people. The police isn’t frontline infantry with a bunch of young and stupid kids, the vast majority of whone are not career military. They do their tours and they are out. Even among career military, most leave and retire as something else. With police it is a longer commitment generally.

Paramount
Member Fri Apr 16 09:26:26
Why does the police care if people has guns? If someone has a gun then it makes the neighborhood safe, because they can protect themselves and their family in case the government tries something, or in case someone else with a gun tries something.

Sam Adams
Member Fri Apr 16 10:31:46
"CNN has been pretty generous to the cops on this one"

Of course they have. The victim isnt black.

Nekran
Member Fri Apr 16 11:07:22
"I don’t know how realistic it is to expect a 45 year old father or mother of two, to be willing to take a bullet just to err on the side of caution, when a significant portion of their job is to deal with really dangerous people."

My sister in law is a cop and a mother of 2... I fully expect her to take that risk, rather than unnecessarily shooting people. Something I also suspect she'd have more trouble recovering from than a bullet wound (provided it's not fatal, obviously).

Of course shooting incidents are rare in our country, so cops don't tend to assume guns are at play to begin with. But still... the risk is part of the job.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Fri Apr 16 12:08:41
The risk, yes. But the question is also what is an acceptable margin of error. We don’t expect every interaction to go well, statistically. And the question isn’t what risk your or I, who have no skin in the game, expect others to take, but what they are ready to take.

tumbleweed
the wanderer Fri Apr 16 14:08:59
i guess his path to not being shot in that moment would be putting his hands up without turning around... although turning does seem the natural thing to do

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Fri Apr 16 16:26:51
That is the tragedy, the kid had a natural and compliant reaction.

tumbleweed
the wanderer Fri Apr 16 16:58:55
probably not a common enough scenario for a PSA... just something to keep in mind when fleeing cops

here's 'Judge Jeanine' in her typical agitated state:
http://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1383174481909215233

kargen
Member Fri Apr 16 17:02:50
"Why does the police care if people has guns?"

They normally do not. When they are responding to a shots fired call and a suspect with a gun is running away they tend to start caring.

tumbleweed
the wanderer Fri Apr 16 22:22:24
Chicago may have some burning tonight, & good ole Martin Savidge amongst the crowd to report it

Cherub Cow
Member Sat Apr 17 05:09:53
[Nekran]: "[having a gun in his hand made] this içncident at least understandable."

Agreed. If this boy had been unarmed and had not had a pistol in his hand a fraction of a second before turning around, it would have given legs to the social media rage against this officer. But since this boy turned around towards the officer and tossed the weapon in one motion while his right hand was obscured, and he was shot less than a second later.. the shooting was understandable. Tragic, wrenching, and sad — but understandable.

[Nekran]: "But yeah, I'm of the opinion that part of the cops' job is taking those risks. You don't use lethal force when you're not sure that it's necessary. It's a simple as that."

I agree in part; I think risk management and experience. With an average armor load, it would be crazy for an officer to risk life by simply waiting until they've been shot at before responding (that would require officers to carry ballistic shields into all conflicts — an expensive proposition, #FundBetterThePolice), but with experience and training comes that extra pause where officers verify the presence of a true threat (i.e., taking slightly more of the threat onto oneself to ensure the correct decision, all other things being equal). In these shoot/ don't shoot scenarios, police have to ride the razor's edge. Take too long? Officer could die. Act too quickly? Maybe the suspect wasn't a threat after all. It certainly helps to be behind cover when engaging, but that may not be possible in some pursuits.

..
[tw]: "i guess his path to not being shot in that moment would be putting his hands up without turning around..."

That's about the size of it :/
The Daniel Shaver execution comes to mind — a case of an officer being absolutely awful with commands ( http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a4a_1513012683 ).

Even when someone receives weird commands by an extremely incompetent officer, it's necessary to explicitly follow those instructions. In Shaver's case, Sgt. Charles Langley (the one yelling commands — not the one who fired) told Shaver to put his hands up and not drop them "for any reason", then he told Shaver to "crawl" forward. Shaver dropped his hands in order to crawl. That resulted in Shaver obscuring his hands, and when he reached to fix his shorts — which were caught under his knees — Officer Philip Brailsford shot Shaver. That does not mean that the officer was right to shoot Shaver. I think he should have been imprisoned for that shooting along with the officer yelling the awful commands because they failed to deescalate and produced the outcome via their own incompetence.

But I've heard people describe it like "a sick game of Simon Says", and people kind of *have* to play it. Some people think it's wrong that they have to play it, but they take their lives into their own hands at their own risk by trying not to play it once it starts. People need to do the exact thing the officer asks and answer the exact questions asked. It's not a time to be political or belligerent or careless. Unfortunately, some social media narratives seem to want people to do the opposite — perhaps so that their self-fulfilling prophecies comes true, getting more people killed in the process. :/

Sam Adams
Member Sat Apr 17 10:24:51
"But still... the risk is part of the job."

Now do gang members and criminals.

Nekran
Member Sat Apr 17 15:28:12
Obviously, those are very risky endeavours.

Sam Adams
Member Sat Apr 17 20:00:40
Right... so why the outrage when some douchy criminal dies by the sword?

Forwyn
Member Sun Apr 18 00:36:45
I'm the resident cop-basher, whether it be Philando, or Shaver, or Finch.

But there's a lot less leeway when you spot an actual gun in their hand.

You hope to get a level-headed guy that can use environmental contextual clues to end up not killing kids with airsoft guns, etc.

But no governmental screening process is going to differentiate between these, and faggots with, "you're fucked" on the dust cover, or diversity picks who can't figure out where their taser is.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Sun Apr 18 03:44:27
On a related subject, I have learned that the average US cop gets 4 hours of training every 2 years on ”arrest and control”, which includes physical control and restraint via bjj/submission moves. Yes, FOUR hours every 2 years, on something that realistically take hours every week to hope to get good at (non violently submitting and controling someone). Underwhelmed and shocked at the same time.

Let the public, temper their expectation on the impossibly thin blue line.

habebe
Member Sun Apr 18 05:28:51
I'm curious on how that compares to the past and other nations.

Or even within the US, does time spent on such training result in different outcomes?

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Sun Apr 18 13:02:08
Marietta Police Department Improves Officer Outcomes Through Jiu-Jitsu Training

Over the course of the past two years, the department is reporting a 23% reduction in the use of tasers by the officers who have opted into the supplementary jiu-jitsu program, 48% decrease in officer injuries across the entire department, 53% reduction in civilian injures, and 59% overall decreased use of force by the BJJ trained officers. Even after factoring in the cost of the training, Marietta PD reported a net savings of $40,752 resulting from the drastic reduction in officer injuries and the corresponding reduction in Worker’s Compensation claims.

http://www...es-through-jiu-jitsu-training/

BJJ gives you the skills to control and submit stronger and bigger opponents. When you have confidence in those skills, then you don’t need to use weapons nearly as often, because you will remain in control.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Sun Apr 18 15:59:08
Isn't that great btw, that BJJ training for a couple of hours every month can have these results. Amazing that the total equation is a net savings.

I heard this on the latest episode of Waking up, with Sam Harris. Rener Gracie (of the Gracie family and Graci Academy) was the guest. He explained how New York has made illegal practically every effective submission move for the police to use. Hearing the details, it is yet another policy decision, made by incompetent politicians trying to appease the equally incompetent general population. The Gracie Academy work extensively with law enforcement and military, Rener says New York is a "lost cause", pretty strong words.

show deleted posts

tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Apr 15 16:51:13 poor video: http://twitter.com/pdbrutality/status/1382803667976396805 can possibly see a gun in his right-hand during at 3-sec (scrubbing frames... when area behind his back first visible when cop turning) not clear to me if in his hand still when he raises them... he -seems- to be doing what officer saying to do... but i'll consider other opinions
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Apr 15 16:53:05 that scrubbing still frame looking like this: http://pbs...Agk-K8?format=jpg&name=900x900
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Thu Apr 15 16:53:31 http://www.chicagocopa.org/case/2021-1112/
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Apr 15 17:35:24 the "BWC 1 \| Shooting Officer" video at swordtail's link is longer & better quality (although i don't see any obvious new gun info... doesn't seem to still be in his hands to me) shooting just after 2 min mark i can see how it might make cop nervous, but also seems like what one would do to surrender
Y2A Member	Thu Apr 15 18:11:53 the officer was the victim according to the original case report. http://www...ginal-Case-Report_REDACTED.pdf 0550 - Assault - Aggravated Police Officer - Handgun Injury Info (STILLMAN,Eric7—#19277 - Victim ) Type Injury Extent: Minor Injury Reason: Ill Person: STILLMAN Eric Injury Cause: Other Hospital: Rush University Medical Center
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Apr 15 19:20:53 CNN has been pretty generous to the cops on this one, showing the still frames of gun that cops put out and no still frames of hands up, plus some experts saying it seems justified (none noting him putting empty hands up... granted it was split second decision-making)
tumbleweed the wanderer	Thu Apr 15 21:14:25 gun was on far side of fence a few feet up so apparently tossed through the opening when he was putting hands up... definitely an attempt to surrender, not sure if cop should be expected to realize it or not
obaminated Member	Thu Apr 15 21:41:37 I wonder why cnn isnt stoking fires of riots while biden is pres...
Cherub Cow Member	Fri Apr 16 06:44:33 ""BWC 1 \| Shooting Officer" video at swordtail's link" Very sad stuff... The officer seeing the pistol, telling him to drop it, taking the shot, trying to do chest compressions while waiting for an ambulance that he knew wasn't getting there fast enough, letting someone else take over, seeing the light flash at the pistol's location, then staring into a vacant lot while shaking back and forth. He knew he'd killed him and that it was a young person. Maybe he was thinking of the kid's family and wishing that he'd made a different call — had he waited a fraction of a second. That's the exact cliché nightmare scenario that police worry about: killing a kid. I think the officer that was following him around ("BWC 2 \| Witness Officer") was thinking the same. Her camera showed him crying at the end.
Nekran Member	Fri Apr 16 07:08:59 Jesus... "show me your fucking hands!", kid turns around with hands up... blam I'm baffled that anyone thinks this is some sort of grey area?
patom Member	Fri Apr 16 07:31:18 Don't you just love mama crying about the loss of her sweet young son? That cop should have known that he was only 13 years old and out roaming the streets at 2:30 in the morning on a school night.
Nekran Member	Fri Apr 16 08:04:47 His age doesn't even come into it... telling someone to stop and show you their hands and then shooting them the second they do that, is insane. Not exactly a commercial for cooperating with the police.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Apr 16 08:12:07 It is a tragedy. Running away from the cops, with a gun in your hands, in the middle of the night, are all complicating factors that increases the risk of getting shot, even when surrendering. The margin for error is smaller than what the vast majority of people can hope to stay on the right side of. It bega the question, should we expect that the margin of error for a cop, is to take a bullet?
Nekran Member	Fri Apr 16 08:18:46 I did not see a gun in his hand in that video... that would make this içncident at least understandable. But yeah, I'm of the opinion that part of the cops' job is taking those risks. You don't use lethal force when you're not sure that it's necessary. It's a simple as that.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Apr 16 09:07:37 See TW’s second link. He threw the gun, almost in the same movement he raised his hands and it is on the side of his body that is turned away and concealed by the fence. Impossibly tragic situation.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Apr 16 09:20:36 I don’t know how realistic it is to expect a 45 year old father or mother of two, to be willing to take a bullet just to err on the side of caution, when a significant portion of their job is to deal with really dangerous people. The police isn’t frontline infantry with a bunch of young and stupid kids, the vast majority of whone are not career military. They do their tours and they are out. Even among career military, most leave and retire as something else. With police it is a longer commitment generally.
Paramount Member	Fri Apr 16 09:26:26 Why does the police care if people has guns? If someone has a gun then it makes the neighborhood safe, because they can protect themselves and their family in case the government tries something, or in case someone else with a gun tries something.
Sam Adams Member	Fri Apr 16 10:31:46 "CNN has been pretty generous to the cops on this one" Of course they have. The victim isnt black.
Nekran Member	Fri Apr 16 11:07:22 "I don’t know how realistic it is to expect a 45 year old father or mother of two, to be willing to take a bullet just to err on the side of caution, when a significant portion of their job is to deal with really dangerous people." My sister in law is a cop and a mother of 2... I fully expect her to take that risk, rather than unnecessarily shooting people. Something I also suspect she'd have more trouble recovering from than a bullet wound (provided it's not fatal, obviously). Of course shooting incidents are rare in our country, so cops don't tend to assume guns are at play to begin with. But still... the risk is part of the job.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Apr 16 12:08:41 The risk, yes. But the question is also what is an acceptable margin of error. We don’t expect every interaction to go well, statistically. And the question isn’t what risk your or I, who have no skin in the game, expect others to take, but what they are ready to take.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Apr 16 14:08:59 i guess his path to not being shot in that moment would be putting his hands up without turning around... although turning does seem the natural thing to do
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Fri Apr 16 16:26:51 That is the tragedy, the kid had a natural and compliant reaction.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Apr 16 16:58:55 probably not a common enough scenario for a PSA... just something to keep in mind when fleeing cops here's 'Judge Jeanine' in her typical agitated state: http://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1383174481909215233
kargen Member	Fri Apr 16 17:02:50 "Why does the police care if people has guns?" They normally do not. When they are responding to a shots fired call and a suspect with a gun is running away they tend to start caring.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Apr 16 22:22:24 Chicago may have some burning tonight, & good ole Martin Savidge amongst the crowd to report it
Cherub Cow Member	Sat Apr 17 05:09:53 [Nekran]: "[having a gun in his hand made] this içncident at least understandable." Agreed. If this boy had been unarmed and had not had a pistol in his hand a fraction of a second before turning around, it would have given legs to the social media rage against this officer. But since this boy turned around towards the officer and tossed the weapon in one motion while his right hand was obscured, and he was shot less than a second later.. the shooting was understandable. Tragic, wrenching, and sad — but understandable. [Nekran]: "But yeah, I'm of the opinion that part of the cops' job is taking those risks. You don't use lethal force when you're not sure that it's necessary. It's a simple as that." I agree in part; I think risk management and experience. With an average armor load, it would be crazy for an officer to risk life by simply waiting until they've been shot at before responding (that would require officers to carry ballistic shields into all conflicts — an expensive proposition, #FundBetterThePolice), but with experience and training comes that extra pause where officers verify the presence of a true threat (i.e., taking slightly more of the threat onto oneself to ensure the correct decision, all other things being equal). In these shoot/ don't shoot scenarios, police have to ride the razor's edge. Take too long? Officer could die. Act too quickly? Maybe the suspect wasn't a threat after all. It certainly helps to be behind cover when engaging, but that may not be possible in some pursuits. .. [tw]: "i guess his path to not being shot in that moment would be putting his hands up without turning around..." That's about the size of it :/ The Daniel Shaver execution comes to mind — a case of an officer being absolutely awful with commands ( http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a4a_1513012683 ). Even when someone receives weird commands by an extremely incompetent officer, it's necessary to explicitly follow those instructions. In Shaver's case, Sgt. Charles Langley (the one yelling commands — not the one who fired) told Shaver to put his hands up and not drop them "for any reason", then he told Shaver to "crawl" forward. Shaver dropped his hands in order to crawl. That resulted in Shaver obscuring his hands, and when he reached to fix his shorts — which were caught under his knees — Officer Philip Brailsford shot Shaver. That does not mean that the officer was right to shoot Shaver. I think he should have been imprisoned for that shooting along with the officer yelling the awful commands because they failed to deescalate and produced the outcome via their own incompetence. But I've heard people describe it like "a sick game of Simon Says", and people kind of have to play it. Some people think it's wrong that they have to play it, but they take their lives into their own hands at their own risk by trying not to play it once it starts. People need to do the exact thing the officer asks and answer the exact questions asked. It's not a time to be political or belligerent or careless. Unfortunately, some social media narratives seem to want people to do the opposite — perhaps so that their self-fulfilling prophecies comes true, getting more people killed in the process. :/
Sam Adams Member	Sat Apr 17 10:24:51 "But still... the risk is part of the job." Now do gang members and criminals.
Nekran Member	Sat Apr 17 15:28:12 Obviously, those are very risky endeavours.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Apr 17 20:00:40 Right... so why the outrage when some douchy criminal dies by the sword?
Forwyn Member	Sun Apr 18 00:36:45 I'm the resident cop-basher, whether it be Philando, or Shaver, or Finch. But there's a lot less leeway when you spot an actual gun in their hand. You hope to get a level-headed guy that can use environmental contextual clues to end up not killing kids with airsoft guns, etc. But no governmental screening process is going to differentiate between these, and faggots with, "you're fucked" on the dust cover, or diversity picks who can't figure out where their taser is.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Apr 18 03:44:27 On a related subject, I have learned that the average US cop gets 4 hours of training every 2 years on ”arrest and control”, which includes physical control and restraint via bjj/submission moves. Yes, FOUR hours every 2 years, on something that realistically take hours every week to hope to get good at (non violently submitting and controling someone). Underwhelmed and shocked at the same time. Let the public, temper their expectation on the impossibly thin blue line.
habebe Member	Sun Apr 18 05:28:51 I'm curious on how that compares to the past and other nations. Or even within the US, does time spent on such training result in different outcomes?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Apr 18 13:02:08 Marietta Police Department Improves Officer Outcomes Through Jiu-Jitsu Training Over the course of the past two years, the department is reporting a 23% reduction in the use of tasers by the officers who have opted into the supplementary jiu-jitsu program, 48% decrease in officer injuries across the entire department, 53% reduction in civilian injures, and 59% overall decreased use of force by the BJJ trained officers. Even after factoring in the cost of the training, Marietta PD reported a net savings of $40,752 resulting from the drastic reduction in officer injuries and the corresponding reduction in Worker’s Compensation claims. http://www...es-through-jiu-jitsu-training/ BJJ gives you the skills to control and submit stronger and bigger opponents. When you have confidence in those skills, then you don’t need to use weapons nearly as often, because you will remain in control.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Apr 18 15:59:08 Isn't that great btw, that BJJ training for a couple of hours every month can have these results. Amazing that the total equation is a net savings. I heard this on the latest episode of Waking up, with Sam Harris. Rener Gracie (of the Gracie family and Graci Academy) was the guest. He explained how New York has made illegal practically every effective submission move for the police to use. Hearing the details, it is yet another policy decision, made by incompetent politicians trying to appease the equally incompetent general population. The Gracie Academy work extensively with law enforcement and military, Rener says New York is a "lost cause", pretty strong words.
	show deleted posts

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