Utopia Talk / Politics / Civil war is in the air

Im better then you 2012 UP Football Champ	Mon May 10 22:38:49 http://www...ce-soldiers-warn-of-civil-war/ BY CLEA CAULCUTT May 10, 2021 9:20 pm PARIS — A number of active soldiers have warned that France risks spiraling into civil war, weeks after similar concerns were raised by a group of retired generals. An open letter, published Sunday in the right-wing magazine Valeurs Actuelles, warns that the decline of France due to violence, Islamism and a hatred of institutions will inevitably lead to a civil war and force the army to intervene. The letter has put President Emmanuel Macron’s government on the defensive just as it seeks to appear strong on security amid fears over rising incivility in France. “[The letter] is a waste of time and offers no solution,” Economy Minister Bruno Le Maire told Franceinfo Monday, accusing the soldiers of using far-right rhetoric. “There is no laissez-faire in France. Yes, there is a political Islamism that is trying to break up the country, and we are fighting it.” The controversy emerged amid a series of attacks against police officers. One officer was killed during a drugs stop in Avignon last week and a police employee was fatally stabbed by a radicalized criminal in the town of Rambouillet last month. Prime Minister Jean Castex was expected to meet representatives of police trade unions on Monday evening to discuss measures to better protect them. Far right leader Marine Le Pen has been swift to support the soldiers speaking out, sparking accusations that the letters were organized by the far right to score points ahead of next year’s presidential election. Looming civil war? An earlier letter signed in April by a group of retired generals and soldiers warned against “hordes from the banlieues [French suburbs]” and “laxist” government policies on Islamism. The second letter is reportedly from a group of active soldiers, who have been deployed to Mali, Afghanistan and the Central African Republic. They have also patrolled the streets of France as part of the “Sentinelle” operation following terror attacks in recent years. Written anonymously, it’s not clear how representative the letter is of the opinions of the military’s rank and file. “This is a professional assessment we are giving,” the soldiers write. “We have seen this decline in many countries in crisis. It precedes collapse, chaos and violence. And contrary to what [others] say, chaos and violence will not come from military rebellion but from a civil insurrection.” General Jérôme Pellistrandi, chief editor at the magazine Revue Défense Nationale, said the soldiers were right about rising violence in France, but were wrong to speak out. “Everyone agrees that society is breaking up, it’s a known fact,” he said. “But is it up to the military to judge what is happening? Or instead should we be trying to encourage social harmony?” “We must not deny the threat of urban violence, the terrible reality that fellow police officers face, the attacks against police stations and the murders of police officers. But it does bother me that they talk of civil war.” Crossing the line Some on the political left say the letters are a sign of mutiny in the army. Jean-Luc Mélenchon, leader of the far-left France Unbowed party, said Sunday that the soldiers were “mutinous and cowardly” and would be purged from the army if he was elected president. Macron’s La République En Marche has been struggling to strike the right note. Ministers on radio chat shows have condemned the soldiers for dangerously crossing the line between the military and politics, while, to a large extent, agreeing with them. “We are in a time of a loss of values,” said LREM MP Jean-Michel Fauvergue. “These soldiers are talking about insecurity, repeated attacks against institutions such as the police, the army, and it’s the reality, it’s a reality that is acknowledged by politicians.” But he insisted the warning of a looming civil war was “exaggerated.” Macron has not responded publicly to the letter, but was filmed alongside France’s chiefs of staff during Saturday’s VE Day commemorations, interpreted as a show of unity and an attempt to end the controversy with the military. Le Pen came out in support of the generals’ earlier letter and has defended the soldiers’ decision to speak out, saying that “it’s a cry of alarm, from people who are not pawns, sent to die in wars that are not ours.” “Nobody reading their letter in good faith would think it was a declaration from the army to disobey orders from politicians,” she said But, beyond the questions over whether the letters are calling for insurrection, they have dragged the army into a political debate that is not going away. “It’s the confiscation of the army’s identity to political ends,” said General Pellistrandi. “The army must remain neutral. This helps extremism in France, the National Rally but also the far left. It’s a sickening climate.” The defense ministry has said that sanctions would be taken against those who signed the first letter as they had broken the army’s duty of confidentiality.
Dukhat Member	Mon May 10 22:53:31 France is such a beautiful place. Too bad all the people that live there are entitled assholes. France is to Europe what the south is to the United States.
habebe Member	Mon May 10 22:58:47 The South isn't all that beautiful, nor is it filled with entitled asshole comparitivley to say CA/NY. CA is France os a better comparison.
Dukhat Member	Mon May 10 23:03:43 Please. I can walk around and be myelf in CA/NY. The South is full of assholes. Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKcJ-0bAHB4
habebe Member	Mon May 10 23:22:20 Ah yes, because a pseudo reality TV show tried to antagonize people, it must be true. I do love TopgearUK though.
habebe Member	Mon May 10 23:23:17 However in real life in NY, an appellate court may take a woman's child partly because she had a rock painted with stars and bars.
Paramount Member	Tue May 11 01:10:12 ”a hatred of institutions will inevitably lead to a civil war” Just look at what happened in the US a couple of months ago. A strong leader can rile up people and incite them to hate and violence. We can see how it has happened elsewhere in the world too throughout history.
Habebe Member	Tue May 11 01:21:13 Yeah that 2nd US civil war was crazy right?
Paramount Member	Tue May 11 02:30:07 Who knows what would have happened if they had succeeded with the coup.
Paramount Member	Tue May 11 02:32:48 I don't know French politics that much... I know of Le Pen of course, but does France have a strong man (or woman) similar to Trump, who can gather the crazies and instigate a coup and start a civil war?
Habebe Member	Tue May 11 02:37:01 A bunch of weirdos taking selfies would overthrow the US military, backed by the US military, the most powerful and greatest funded fighting force in all of history......................
Paramount Member	Tue May 11 02:42:50 They were out to kill vice president Mike Pence and probably other politicians, and to find and destroy the votes. After that, then maybe the majority of the military would proclaim support for Trump (most of the military are republicans and support Trump), and then they would start to line up the traitors and the enemies of the people and either jail them or gun them down.
Habebe Member	Tue May 11 02:59:05 And then Ted Nugent comes in with a .50 macjine gun in a helicopter ( he does actually have acces to one) and installed himself as Imperator of California, and then jurrassic park lets put the donor and battles to the end....bit then megladon rises from the deep to eat the dinosaurs bit he grows legs and cam breathe air now so he unites the bloods, Crips, Latin Kings and MS-13 not the Meg-Super gang and they invade China because he doesnt likentheir exploitation of the South China Sea becaise his child.hood freind was a crab from their that they killed.
Rugian Member	Tue May 11 05:53:55 habebe Member Mon May 10 22:58:47 "The South isn't all that beautiful, nor is it filled with entitled asshole comparitivley to say CA/NY." Dukhat Member Mon May 10 23:03:43 "Please. I can walk around and be myelf in CA/NY." ---- He really sets himself up for this, doesn't he.
Habebe Member	Tue May 11 06:01:03 Rugian, Yeah all I could hear was "I'm coming out, I want the world to know, gonna let it show ....." I deleted my initial response to that post.
chuck Member	Tue May 11 12:16:45 Loved topography and some of architecture of walking in SF. Everything else about it blows though. San Diego was more boring but also not as bad as SF in other ways. NY is primo for walking around though. Growing up in the suburbs in the south, it was notable to see someone walking from point A to point B. I used to walk home from high school sometimes and people would be like "omg I SAW you walking yesterday!" It was notable. There's something to be said for a place where you can just go outside and wander without becoming an object of curious attention. Just seeing and being seen is exhausting in its own way. There is something comforting about a place where nobody gives a fuck about you or what you're doing. Way more relaxing walking in Manhattan than walking around the block in the suburbs where you see someone 300 feet away and then you've got like a minute of walking towards each other acting like you don't see each other before you get closer and say hi, have obligatory brief chat and then go on your way.
chuck Member	Tue May 11 12:20:56 I guess my main idea is basically: there's an uncanny valley of density of people where walking is worse. When it's busy, you can just walk. When it's empty, you can just walk. At some points in the middle, it's this weird
chuck Member	Tue May 11 12:23:50 *oops, was still editing that haha. Please disregard. No people = good walk Many people = good walk In between = every person you run into will be an encounter where you notice them (brain: "there aren't many people here but hey look, a person!") and vice versa and you either need to give a nod to acknowledge them or you're being misanthropic.
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