Utopia Talk / Politics / China -3 children now allowed

Hrothgar Member	Mon May 31 16:15:37 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-57303592 From 1 child policy to 3 now within a few short years now that they are realizing they are headed for a population implosion over the next 100 years. The panic is escalating. The rest of the developed world isn't too far behind with trending population decrease in most cases as well.
Habebe Member	Mon May 31 16:20:42 With China there are a.few.problems 1. Lack of immigration. 2. People seem to just not want to have more kids, city life tends to lead to smaller.families. 3. Even if China had a baby boom now, its too late to fix the problem without immigration. Japan had a similar ratio problem, remember when Japan was.set.to be the world's next superpower?
kargen Member	Mon May 31 16:41:47 Maybe they are planning on releasing another virus and this is them trying to compensate.
Habebe Member	Mon May 31 17:13:49 http://www...20ratio%20of%2042.2%20percent. Its not just China, but it does seem to have one of the biggest drastic changes. The dependant ratios play a huge role economic development and the correlations of dependancy ratios in every country is a strong indicator of growth. Again Japan is textbook case. But there are numerous examples.Ill post an article below so you can click it.
Habebe Member	Mon May 31 17:14:01 http://amp...ooming-demographic-crisis-will
Rugian Member	Mon May 31 18:03:11 The problem behind population decline (in the West at least) is leftism. What the fuck do you think happens when you have a society that promotes: -Taxpayer-funded birth control -The decline of the nuclear family -Legalized and taxpayer-funded abortions -Feminist attitudes that encourage women to prioritize their careers over starting a family -Urbanization -Castigating stay-at-home motherhood as an unacceptable career choice Western leftism has been pushing pretty much everything possible to discourage child-rearing since the 1960s. And now we're surprised that America and Europe are having problems with reproduction rates? And to tie this back to the OP, China can loosen their restrictions as much as they want - it's not going to help a hell of a lot much whether they allow 3, 4, or 5 children. The same leftist-driven dynamics that contribute to birth rate declines are in effect in China - even more so, given their communist government. Basically, every place that doesn't have a lot of Muslims, Africans, or Indians is going to be struggling for young people for most of the next century.
Habebe Member	Mon May 31 18:30:55 I would say the decline of the nuclear family and the preference pushed on women to aim for careers over starting a family, with less.emphasis on choice and a general frowning upon having large families. The US has steady immigration to mitigate some damages.
Habebe Member	Mon May 31 18:34:11 Conservatives tend to have significantly more kids though.
Hrothgar Member	Mon May 31 23:47:51 imo humanity has 2 choices in regard to population. For a long time the growth curve has been exponential. Exponential growth eventually some day, some how, leads to a sudden and harsh collapse. So we can either: 1- Continue exponential growth to keep our system of global economy propped up as many more decades as possible and face the eventual black swan event that causes billions to die rapidly. 2- Flatten out the growth and even put it into a slow decline with negative growth number of children. Get the world back down and stable at 2-4 billion people. imo #2 is the preferable option. With obviously a massive rethink of economy globally developed to deal with far more old people than young." Humanity can't keep growing our pyramid scheme of larger population of young supporting fewer old forever.
jergul large member	Tue Jun 01 00:49:02 12 generations to reach 300 million at current western contraction rates. That is about Roman times number of humans.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Jun 01 04:21:33 Are there any examples of a country population contracting or stagnating and it having net negative effect on CO2 emissions or gdp? No. People have less children and take more vacation or buy more stuff. This isn’t so much about procreating, as much as it is everything else. People have whatever income they have to spend on however many heads they need to take care of, less heads simply means more stuff per head. More heads means less stuff per head. At any rate, we need more people, because we need to colonize the solar system. Energy resources and space exist in abundance, we need to focus on inventing the technology to realize the dream. Stop thinking backwards and invent stuff!
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Jun 01 04:27:13 My son has demanded that he shall have a birth day cake for his 4th birthday, with a ”Falcon heavy” rocket on it :,) watching them launch on a big screen and good sound quality has made an impression. All part of my master plan, I am priming the boy for a life on Mars.
habebe Member	Tue Jun 01 04:49:47 "All part of my master plan, I am priming the boy for a life on Mars." Ive bee locking the kids in tunnels underground to raise tilapia.
habebe Member	Tue Jun 01 04:51:40 http://www...ay_and_my_family_surprised_me/ kind of a cool cake idea with the candles.
jergul large member	Tue Jun 01 05:16:28 Nimi We need less people to colonize the solar system.
habebe Member	Tue Jun 01 05:20:35 Jergul, Ehrlichs population bomb really got to you, huh?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Jun 01 05:30:08 Nice pic habebe, will use it for inspiration.
jergul large member	Tue Jun 01 05:46:16 That is just Malthus rehashed habebe. Not interesting. Its more an apex predator perspective on humanity as an alternative to understanding us as viral. How many apex predators of our body mass can ecosystems comfortably support? 300 million seems about right for this planet. But if you want to be a virus, then sure. Aim for billions.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Jun 01 07:00:31 Jergul I think the real problem is for you to sell in the idea of humans as a virus to a larger audience, without detrimental feedback in the form of self-hatred, anxiety and create more conflict. It just isn't a very productive angle. You said something once and I didn't ask you. You said why not have 1 child instead of 2, why not 2 instead of 3. I ask you, why didn't you have 2? Whatever the answer is, isn't important, because there are 100's of different answers to that, that all made sense to the people who made them, at the time they made them. You have decided to take the conflict angle on food and procreation, fine. Not a very fruitful project if you ask me. Given what I know about humans, I would be surprised if it was even moderately successful. I think we are awesome and I say that as someone who has "studied" in high definition all the horrible things we do. We are the best virus to have ever walked on this earth. I believe in us and that our destiny is among the stars.
jergul large member	Tue Jun 01 10:27:02 I am not taking a conflict angle and I am unsure where you see the contradiction. Awesome is a measure of quality, not quantity. 300 million can more easily reach for the stars than billions upon billions can.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Jun 01 11:23:19 I think the contradiction is a matter of opinion, probably worth discussing some day, but I am surprised you don’t see how abrasive what you are saying is. I think I made a good case around food, how for many social and cultural reason, it should be the last thing we ”attack”. On that continuum of triggering things, describing peoples desire to have children, many children, be fruitful and multiply, as ”virus” is on another level ;) The backlash to such an idea, just on actual religious grounds, you get the idea. Even if I took everything you said at face value, the conclusion is, yes jergul we are a virus, we need to accept that and still colonize space and fix all the problems. Some things are personal, they lend themselves easily to our emotions, food, making a family are two that come to mind. And I say that as someone who actually gets triggered by what you are saying. I am only telling you to make my point, not because I am trigger by _you_. I can see the rationality in your argument, I had this discussion years ago with a friend, years ago, forget where the 300 million number came from (UN study from 70’S?), but it was the same figure. Yet my friend, some where deep inside, beneath layers of civility, reasons, logic and facts, I feel something inside me getting triggered. I can’t explain it, but that is kind of my point. We are trying for a second, but honestly if my wife is up for it I want a third one. You know this better than me, but it is quite fun to make new people and raise them.
TheChildren Member	Tue Jun 01 12:32:52 thats right, kids. China is wise beyond ages.
Turtle Crawler Admin	Thu Jun 03 14:00:33 They should just mandate marriage and 3+ children as the primary requirements for participation in society. Personally id just put a 20% annual tax and a fee on all the leaches. Use that to find preferential treatment for large families: no taxes, car subsidies, preferable mortgage rates, better social security benefits etc.
habebe Member	Thu Jun 03 14:06:05 Unwanted children have their own host of issues, good amount of research on that.
Pillz Member	Thu Jun 03 18:03:06 "They should just mandate marriage and 3+ children as the primary requirements for participation in society. Personally id just put a 20% annual tax and a fee on all the leaches. Use that to find preferential treatment for large families: no taxes, car subsidies, preferable mortgage rates, better social security benefits etc." These are exactly the sorts of things that Rome tried to do. They also had immigration to mitigate most of the issues of declining population growth. I think our lack of slavery and higher overall standard of living makes it an appealing set of ideas to re-try. But we do need to begin shipping our homeless and drug addicts to other places.
Habebe Member	Thu Jun 03 18:18:32 China doesn't lack slavery.
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