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Utopia Talk / Politics / Masks Don't Work
nhill
Member
Sun Jun 20 11:30:34
If you thought this at any point, then you are not scientifically literate. I've been using this as a litmus test since the beginning of the pandemic.

It was obvious masks work even without the massive amounts of data that now exist proving it. There's an objective branch of science that proved it before the pandemic even started, and it's called Physics.
nhill
Member
Sun Jun 20 11:31:28
Also, if you thought this at any point it's nothing to feel ashamed of. Just information. Now you know that your scientific literacy is shit, so go level it up. Opportunity.
nhill
Member
Sun Jun 20 11:46:04
Mask mandates, on the other hand, don't work. Because they don't actually lead to masking.
nhill
Member
Sun Jun 20 11:47:04
We can be honest about how they (quite obviously) work & still hold the position that governments should not be allowed to easily compel citizens to wear them.
kargen
Member
Sun Jun 20 12:34:14
Masks made zero difference outside. In the first month wearing a mask inside helped flatten the curve. After that even indoors in most situations the masks did little good. Mostly because even when people were wearing masks they were not doing so properly.
There is of course no alternate universe for us to prove this but given what we know now a lot of the precautions turned out to be ineffective or simply not needed.
Habebe
Member
Sun Jun 20 12:44:23
Masks work for their intended purposes*

I know that seems silly to point out, but let's be clear on these boards because, well we have had this dispute before, I brought an old thread back from the dead recently.

Basicly masks do a great job at reducing infected ppl from spreading the disease as much.

They do very poorly at keeping people from catching it by wearing one.

They may protect you from close talkers who spray as they speak. N95 masks may reduce viral load, but then they are only supposed to be worn for limited spans of time and replaced. Even that seems to be minimally effective.
nhill
Member
Sun Jun 20 15:11:07
kargen

Masks work everywhere, including outside. Simple physics.

They aren't necessary outside, however. If you want to know why, simply join me in a thought experiment:
Sit next to someone that farts a nice juicy one in an enclosed space, such as a restaurant.

Does it smell, and for how long?

Now, do the same thing outdoors.

That's how viral load works.

Habebe

Masks work, period, at reducing particulates of any size from entering your respiratory system. That's physics.

Proper usage is not being addressed here, but obviously without using them properly (or using the proper mask) their effectiveness is negated. Just like literally anything else in the world. I don't see people say TOILETS DONT WORK simply because they don't know how to flush. My issue is I still people say "maSkS dUnT eVeN wOrK" and it's embarrassing.
nhill
Member
Sun Jun 20 15:13:59
Reducing the amount of particulates of any size from entering your respiratory system, that is.

No beef with anyone here. Just ranting because I still see so many twats say the "masks don't work" argument when it is obviously wrong.
nhill
Member
Sun Jun 20 15:16:16
Then these people inevitably quote some article showing something like bacteria and shit growing on kids cloths masks that they wear 7 hours a day at school.

People aren't using them properly, oh, you don't say? Durr.

God it's so fucking annoying.
nhill
Member
Sun Jun 20 15:24:05
Also, I don't think masks should be mandated. That breeds this sort of mistrust among the scientifically illiterate populace.

Data supports this. Mask mandates reduce mask compliance.
kargen
Member
Sun Jun 20 17:26:11
"Masks work everywhere, including outside. Simple physics."

I didn't say masks do not work.

I said they made zero difference outside. We know that because of science.
nhill
Member
Sun Jun 20 17:45:06
For sure.
nhill
Member
Sun Jun 20 17:45:58
We also know that because of BLM protests, heh.
Habebe
Member
Mon Jun 21 02:45:37
Nhill, Don't get me wrong, we agree.

My point was that masks are WAY moreneffective at reducing spread from wearing a mask than they to reducing catching the virus.

That is to say if you had 100 ppl 50 infected and 50 not and you had 50 masks, your best bet would be to give those masks to the infected.
Seb
Member
Mon Jun 21 03:37:25
Mask mandates don't work *in the US[1]* - because American public debate has descended to a level where tribal indicators and magical thinking are the dominant modes of political and societal behaviour.



[1] Probably more accurate to say bits of the US.
nhill
Member
Mon Jun 21 03:50:41
Habebe

Yes, we do agree.

Seb

Yes, I'm speaking US-centric.
Rugian
Member
Mon Jun 21 03:52:52
Mask mandates don't work *in the US* - because Americans are smarter than the ruling classes give us credit for, and are able to recognize when mandates are more about the optics than about following the scientific consensus on their efficacy.

For Pete's sake, when my governor introduced an outdoor mask mandate he outright said he wasn't doing so for any scientific reason; he just thought it would increase mask use in general.

People like Seb who follow mandates regardless of their sensibility are sheep.
nhill
Member
Mon Jun 21 04:00:39
Rugian is correct. It's the obvious political doublespeak and condescension that makes mask mandates ineffective in the USA.

A significant portion of the population (basically the intersection of people capable of critical thought, but not well-versed in science) is simply going to default to distrust.

That's the consequences of a "do as I say, not as I do attitude". Same lesson parents learn the hard way when their kids get old enough to spot all the white lies. I learned that one the hard way with my kids, but have since remedied my ways. I have little faith in our politicians remedying their ways.
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 21 04:00:40
Mask mandates in combination with other things work great.

I have kept count. We have killed off the covid epidemic a total of 7 times locally in my town.

For the country as a whole: the death toll to those dying with covid is approaching 800. In total, not per day as you might reasonably think.
nhill
Member
Mon Jun 21 04:07:19
jergul

Mask mandates have not worked in the USA. My apologies, as I don't think much about the rest of the world-- at least in this regard.

However, now that you mention it, did your politicians purposefully spread misinformation because they assumed your population was too stupid to process the facts?
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 21 04:29:07
Nhill
In combination with other things. Masks are a bandaid for a sliced jugular if you cant manage contract tracing.

We do not have an anglo-saxon government tradition that lifts politicians above state institutions.

Our cdc is far more influential than politician takes on what is important.

nhill
Member
Mon Jun 21 04:42:06
I see. Over here, the leaders of our institutions (e.g. Anthony Fauci) occaisonally act similarly to the politicians, to the points where the lines blur at times. And they like to spread white lies and, then when caught, explain that it was for the "greater good".

It's somewhat of an exception, but unfortunately, that trick only works once or twice before a significant portion of people lose all trust in both the politicians and institutions altogether.

That's when things get dangerous, as defaulting to distrust creates an inverse relationship to scientific facts. The only thing that can salvage that is actual scientific literacy, which is not all that common here, either (regardless of political leanings).
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 21 04:53:57
I doubt 1 person in 5 could name the head of the Norwegian cdc. The German and French traditions are institutional based, not figurehead based (dispite glaring counter examples).

I just checked. The number of people with post secondary educations is increasing by 1% a year here. I am assuming there is a correlation between higher education and scientific literacy.
Habebe
Member
Mon Jun 21 04:57:22
"We do not have an anglo-saxon government tradition that lifts politicians above state institutions."

Ah yes the "inherent divination of the state"
Rugian
Member
Mon Jun 21 04:59:23
"Scientific literacy" is a loaded term. It implies that anyone who is "scientifically literate" will inevitably reach the same conclusions as the (Norwegian) CDC.

That's not how science works. Science is a decentralized process in which different scientists can arrive at different conclusions on a given situation.

You can be a credible scientist and believe the (Norwwegian) CDC is completely wrong in its approach to Covid.

Essentially, jergul is arguing that science functions like a top-down bureaucracy. More of that Soviet-style mindset at work.
Rugian
Member
Mon Jun 21 04:59:51
Lol I love how habebe and me had the same reaction to jergul there
nhill
Member
Mon Jun 21 05:01:54
I agree. There’s a major distinction between scientific literacy, and literacy in Science with a capital S. The latter is more like a religion these days.
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 21 05:03:08
Habebe
Nope. And there you go again. Your country full of religious fanatics as contrasted by a pretty much Atheist Europe...

And you are waah we have had separation of church and state for a while.

That is due to two things. The King of UK being the leader of the church of England and because many of your colonists belonged to religious sects.

Your founding fathers worried about things specific to the anglosphere and the fuck twads who populated the colonies.
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 21 05:06:25
Ruggy
Why are you suprised? You and habebe have about the same level of education.

And what the fuck are you on about? I made no mention of how I think the norwegian cdc functions.

I just pointed to the fact that the continent has a different institutional tradition than the US and the UK.
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 21 05:07:24
Nhill
You adore individuals and therefore get mislead by individuals.

We favour institutions that do not as easily mislead.
nhill
Member
Mon Jun 21 05:07:36
Pure science not only leaves room for doubt, it encourages it. There’s a limit to that, of course, but in modernity, at least over here, science has become unusually dogmatic.
nhill
Member
Mon Jun 21 05:12:29
jergul

I think that’s fair. We do get enamored with scientific stars over here quite often, which is against the spirit of science. That’s mainly a left-leaning phenomenon. Centrists, such as myself, still adore and trust science. The right-leaning populace tends to dismiss it more each day, but for decent reasons. The problem with the right, as a whole, is many (not all) throw out the baby with the bath water and end up in the dark ages.
Rugian
Member
Mon Jun 21 05:17:41
Jergul

Are you developing Alzheimer's? Allow me to restate your own positions here:

-Norway is awesome because it has an awesome CDC

-Norway is awesome because its citizens have a high level of trust in said awesome CDC

-By implication, Norwegians have a high level of trust in said awesome CDC because they have a high level of "scientific literacy"

I get any of that wrong there bro?
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 21 05:29:16
Ruggy
You got it wrong, bruh.

Continental Europe has a different institutional pedigree than the US. The emphasis is greater on institutions than individuals here.

Institutions are more robust that individuals and can more easily maintain trust.

Norway's education levels are increasing rather quickly, mostly due to people dying. The same would prolly be true of the US. So there is hope if you believe there is a correlation between scientific literacy and education levels.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jun 21 06:35:54
Jergul
"I am assuming there is a correlation between higher education and scientific literacy."

I got 50% of my academic DNA from social science (economy). There is no raising of scientific literacy going on in most of the social sciences, no appreciation for or hands on with experiments (at least not as undergrads) no math or statistics. All things that are fundamental for making sense of data.

IMO there are a lot of education who simply churn out uneducated smartasses. People with no useful skills, certainly no raised literacy in making sense of the world, but certainly the confidence and a chip on their shoulders, compounded by failed hopes and dreams.
jergul
large member
Mon Jun 21 10:24:44
Yes, they seemingly often heavily rely on anecdotal evidence :D
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jun 21 13:19:37
First paragraph is observational, we can remove the second paragraph and the point is still the same.
Sam Adams
Member
Mon Jun 21 21:06:10

"I am assuming there is a correlation between
higher education and scientific literacy."

There was.
nhill
Member
Tue Jun 22 09:47:30
Yep, a Bachelor's degree today is less respectable than a High School degree in the 90s.
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