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Utopia Talk / Politics / Why no confidence im Sweden?
Habebe
Member
Mon Jun 21 12:52:40
http://www...4b-dbfc37aa872d%22&form=HPNN01

I was just curious on the locals takes on this considering we have several Swedes and Jergul ( close enough)
Average Ameriacn
Member
Mon Jun 21 13:09:48
I never had confidence in Sweden.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jun 21 13:12:24
Because the Swedish Left party (former communisrs) are tired of being the social democrats bitches. They get no influence, but the social democrats can more or less count on their support in everything. Until now that is.

Vänster partiet (lit. The left party) recently elected a new party leader, an Iranian-Swedish woman, and they decided to take the help of all the other Right wing parties, including their arch enemy the Sweden Democrats (nazis according to paramount) to pass this vote of no confidence.
Rugian
Member
Mon Jun 21 13:45:01
The Swedish Left blew up the government over a rent control proposal. Lol

Just spent some time reading into this and apparently rent controls in Sweden are completely FUBAR. Tenants almost never give up places with frozen rent, instead they hang on to them and sublet them out for twice the rate. That causes available units to be in massively short supply.

If you want to rent directly from the housing authorities, you either have to spend 11(!) years on a waitlist or you resort to bribes (which is fairly common).

Also the sublet rates pparently price out immigrants and poor people in many neighborhoods. Sounds kind of fucked up for such a progressive country, but thats just me.

The Left withdrew from the coalition because the PM threw his support behind eliminating rent controls on newly-developed units. Whoops.
nhill
Member
Mon Jun 21 13:46:38
Who are the Swedish board members so I can judge Sweden based on that?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jun 21 13:56:39
Pretty sure it’s just me and Paramount, on UP anyways. But I’m first gen immigrant.
Rugian
Member
Mon Jun 21 13:58:31
^Which according to jergul means that you're not really Swedish at all.
Rugian
Member
Mon Jun 21 14:10:28
Also you forgot WTB
Habebe
Member
Mon Jun 21 14:14:33
Jergul is Norweigan, but that's close enough to Sweden for me to have a locals view.

Paramount is far more out there than Nimatzo who Id put as the most reasonable regular* non US poster , the rest seem rather crazy to me.

I put regular because Camaban and Crownroyal are not Seb, TC, paramount and Jergul level of out there.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jun 21 14:22:30
What Rugian wrote is correct and supplementary to my analysis. The rent control stuff (kinda petty issue even for the Left) is the immediate stuff that has been happening, my post is the ultimate cause behind the shit finally hitting the fan.
nhill
Member
Mon Jun 21 14:47:08
Immigrated from Iran?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jun 21 15:04:45
Yes.
nhill
Member
Mon Jun 21 15:11:33
Cool.
Paramount
Member
Tue Jun 22 04:34:45
” Just spent some time reading into this and apparently rent controls in Sweden are completely FUBAR. Tenants almost never give up places with frozen rent, instead they hang on to them and sublet them out for twice the rate. That causes available units to be in massively short supply.

If you want to rent directly from the housing authorities, you either have to spend 11(!) years on a waitlist or you resort to bribes (which is fairly common). ”


Yup, the housing market is pretty insane, Good luck finding an apartment to rent. You can rent second hand of course but at many times ridicilous prices. Or you can buy an apartment, if you have millions of moneys of course, which very if any young adult have.
Paramount
Member
Tue Jun 22 04:38:35
Neverwoods, Isaksson and Faithless are Swedish also. But they don’t post anymore.

Isaksson was locked up in mental hospital, I think. Faithless moved to the french riviera. Don’t know what happened to Neverwoods. Sometime people just disappear.
Paramount
Member
Tue Jun 22 04:39:54
* very few or any
nhill
Member
Tue Jun 22 09:28:05
I always thought Isaksson was a multi, but mentally ill could make sense, too. When did he disappear?
Forwyn
Member
Tue Jun 22 10:53:28
"Tenants almost never give up places with frozen rent, instead they hang on to them and sublet them out for twice the rate."

ROFL

It's literally a requirement that you be a fucking retard to work in government
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Tue Jun 22 12:32:18
Rental appartments, especially in nice parts of the cities are inherited. To (illegally) buy rental contracts is common practice in the two largest cities.

The people who run this country are only surpassed in retardation by the people who vote for them.
jergul
large member
Tue Jun 22 12:54:27
Rent control gives renters a form of surrogate ownership. Sweden has that model with a high level of renters for life.

It is highly regulated. Like all things, regulation works poorly if not enforced.

It is not a subprime crisis. To point at a truly fucked up home ownership disaster in the recent past
Habebe
Member
Tue Jun 22 18:01:04
"Sometime people just disappear."_More evidence Paramount is actually a CCP operative working in Sweden.

Long term rent control is terrible.Plenty of evidence to support this.

However, you also just can't stop it either, this also has plenty of negatives.

No regulation has its own set of problems too.

Macro housing policy is tricky.
jergul
large member
Wed Jun 23 01:07:55
habebe
Long term homeownership is terrible. There is plenty of evidence to supports its potential to destroy the global economy.

The issue in both cases is regulation and regulation enforcement.

Also, more a former Pinochet regime element or war on terror renditions than the CCP. What is up with you and projecting the flaws of yourself or your heroes onto others?

Going to close GITMO any time soon?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Jun 23 04:00:34
Jergul
There is regulation, it's just very difficult. I know people who bought houses, then rent out their appartment to someone else (saving it for when their daughter grows up). These were actualyl "caught", took it to court and won, because it is very difficult to prove they are not using the apartment.

The problem isn't regulation, the problem is that the market, the supply and demand creates these kinds of incentives. If the supply of appartments was, you know normal and not the scarcity of rare earth metals, then it wouldn't be worth the hassle, you wouldn't need to worry for your daughters future. In stockholm there is a 21 year waiting period for a rental appartment.
Seb
Member
Wed Jun 23 04:23:25
Jergul:

The problem as I understand it after few conversations with my Swedish friends is - as you say - that the rent controls effectively act as create a leasehold in perpetuity, and act to disincentivises creation of new rental stock.

So you just create a market in illegal/uncontrolled sub-letting.

Rigorous enforcement of sub-letting controls might be possible, but you'd need to give people sub-letting the right to take on the lease otherwise you will never realistically detect it. Nobody in the chain is really incentivised to trigger enforcement otherwise.

jergul
large member
Wed Jun 23 05:00:11
Nimi
The trick Denmark does is subsidize renting at about the same level home ownership is subsidized. It gives the authorities a very clear picture of who is living where.

Norway does it differently. Each household has a primary address with tax benefits. That is where you live.

Though ultimately, yes. More council estates.

Seb
Denmark does it by way of giving sub-leasers a tax rebate. It gives insentives to report to the authorities.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Jun 23 05:47:30
Jergul
"Each household has a primary address with tax benefits. That is where you live."

This primary adress is individual in Sweden. So, that means 1 adult can have a city appartment, because they work there and the other adult has the house adress. It is even simpler for people who are not legally married, which is more or less the norm. The way the system is set up and the fact that sub letting is illegal or very stringent and difficult, has only compounded the underlying supply issue. Which was bad before the refugee crisis, but tilted completely after.
Habebe
Member
Wed Jun 23 06:59:30
Jergul, So defensive again. I didnt even say anything that is controversial.

Home ownership is not a threat to the global economy. Government meddling into pushing shitty loans had some shit go down.

Every economist worth his salt agrees long term rent control doesnt work well. It leads to lack of investment and in Swedens case super high rents oddly enough.
Rugian
Member
Wed Jun 23 07:17:00
Habebe beat me mid-post. "The GFC proved that home ownership is a terrible concept," how the fuck does one arrive at that batshit conclusion.
Rugian
Member
Wed Jun 23 07:23:37
You may as well claim that 9/11 proved the terribleness of having an oxygen-rich atmosphere.

Sure, oxygen was present on that day...but I think there were other things that were more responsible for the tragedy.
Habebe
Member
Wed Jun 23 07:33:09
Speaking of 2008, anyone else notice the SC Goldman Sachs ruling today?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Jun 23 08:27:13
"other things that were more responsible for the tragedy."

Sure, but ultimately a root cause analysis will show that, without oxygen it wouldn't have happened. And that's that.
Seb
Member
Wed Jun 23 08:33:43
Rugian:

"Habebe beat me mid-post. "The GFC proved that home ownership is a terrible concept," how the fuck does one arrive at that batshit conclusion."

Macro stuff - even before you get to securitisation of mortgages - it decrease flexibility of the jobs market and creates pro-cyclical issues during downturns.
Rugian
Member
Wed Jun 23 08:59:46
Nothing you said supports what jergul said, sorry.

Meanwhile, renter markets combined with rent controls not only decrease the flexibility of the jobs market as well, but also disincentivizes developers from bringing new housing stock to market and results in neglect and deferred maintenance on existing inventory.

The inherent problem with that formula is that the state is ignoring the fundamentals of supply and demand. That's obvious to any capitalist, though I can understand how a Marxist like jergul may be blind to the concept.
jergul
large member
Wed Jun 23 09:00:09
Nimi
That is likely part of the problem. Here the primary address is per household. The only way to game the system is by proforma separations - which carry their own risks and lack of subsidy.

But certainly. It is primarily a supply issue.

Habebe
Why would you mistake my being offensive like that? Its like meth has warped your every perspective 180 degrees.

Ruggy
Lern to reed and never paraphrase. You suck at both to a point where you are just having a conversation with yourself.

Rugian
Member
Wed Jun 23 09:01:22
Jergul

You need to learn to own what you say. Its not my fault that you embarrass yourself on the regular with your batshit insanity.
Habebe
Member
Wed Jun 23 09:01:35
Seb, It does decrease job flexibility, but then so does rent control.

I'm not saying one method is without flaw, personally I'm of the opinion that housing policy is something AFAIK* no one has really solved long term.Partly due to the great differences in the needs of different places and such.

I am firmly in the beleif that it's a sector that requires unique regulation (see black rock) but that long term rent control doesnt seem to be good solution.

From here on I'll just call it rent control. But I am in fabor of short term rent controls as a tool for certain situations.
Habebe
Member
Wed Jun 23 09:03:54
Jergul, Perhaps my mistake. You seem much angrier than usual, perhaps just bored.
Rugian
Member
Wed Jun 23 09:11:20
Jergul has been unusually quick to anger lately.

Being under lockdown for well over a year must be fucking with him mentally. Sucks for him that Norway has taken such a shitty approach to Covid.
Habebe
Member
Wed Jun 23 09:17:30
Cabin fever would explain it.

*awaits random story about how he went to the pub with freinds, to prove he isnt on lockdown*
jergul
large member
Wed Jun 23 11:50:26
Ruggy
I own what I say. The tripe it turns into in your mind is your own.

habebe
What do you even do off your parent's property beyond running errands for them?
Habebe
Member
Wed Jun 23 12:22:44
Often I am on my property for starters, but really whatever I want. Spend a fair amount of time at the shop and I still visit PA atleast twice a year.

I tend to be more of a non urban guy, so lockdown schmockdown, hiking and fishing doesn't bump you into bunches of people.

Smile my freind, enjoy life, you vaxed, right? If its not cabin fever, why the increased hostility?
jergul
large member
Wed Jun 23 12:29:32
Passive aggressive twats get to me sometimes. My pet peeve.
Habebe
Member
Wed Jun 23 12:43:29
Go to the beach. I'm heading back to Myrles inlet probably this weekend.

Do I smoke weed?
Habebe
Member
Wed Jun 23 12:45:30
Actually, you got me thinking, ive been wanting to do a FLA trip for a while now.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jun 24 17:03:52
Jergul

I found this.

Sett till det totala antalet påbörjade bostäder under perioden 2000-2019 är statistiken talande. I Sverige påbörjades 666.000 bostäder. I Danmark, Finland och Norge, med cirka halva Sveriges folkmängd, påbörjades 477.000, 660.000 respektive 570.000 bostäder. Befolkningsökningen under perioden var då i storleksordningen 1.445.000 i Sverige, 474.000 i Danmark, 344.000 i Finland och 864.000 i Norge.
nhill
Member
Thu Jun 24 17:05:56
Habebe

Pensacola Beach is the most underrated beach in FL. Rarely crowded, but immaculate sand and surf.
jergul
large member
Thu Jun 24 17:09:41
Nimi
Numbers suggest rent control is not the issue. Compare started residences to population growth.

Norway and Sweden come out just as bad.

I think the common denominator is lack of suitably zoned property in popular areas.

Norway has no rent control anywhere.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jun 24 17:35:01
I have no idea how rent control plays into all this, it isn't on the top of my agenda though. The lack of building has a lot of different reasons, cost is one. Swedish construction sector has diminished in productivity over the last 10 years. There is also a very slow regulatory process, partly because of cutbacks and lack of experienced city planners. And the regulations are _extensive_, especially in the popular areas.
williamthebastard
Member
Thu Jul 01 11:03:16
The lefties apparently pulled off a very successful coup. They shot up in popularity since it (used) to be a matter of swedish pride that basically everybody had access to good quality housing, a result of the so-called successful Million Programme in the '60s when the govt decided a million homes should be built, and thus she took a tough stand on an issue that many Swedes sympathize with, even if they don't like the left part otherwise. She's also forced the Social Dems to stop ignoring them and to give them something of material worth. On top of that, all indications are that the current coalition govt will remain in power.
williamthebastard
Member
Thu Jul 01 11:33:51
An interesting uniqueness about swedens housing situation is that swedes leave home at the earliest age in the world, several hundreds of thousands of teen households, (probably a result of the Million Programme) and also have the most single households in the world, twice as many as Finland. That is likely to also have an impact on the available homes.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jul 01 13:28:28
Have you ever been to one of the ”million projects” recently? They are the so called no go zones now. Who would have thought that building high density housing for low income people would turn side ways?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jul 03 04:44:05
This has really aged well!

Since this thread was created we had a massive brawl between arabs and somalis involving hundreds of people, the national SWAT team were called in! These little mini brawl/riots are becoming more common place. I have actuallt lived in the area his happened. This was the second one in Sweden in less than a month.

And 2 days ago a cop was gunned down and killed in one of no go zones. 33 year old father to be, gf is a cop and pregnant. I have lived in this city, my family still lives there and this specific area, I have been there many many many times, used to have friends in northern parts if the city.

Shithole implosion as River of blood would say.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jul 03 04:45:07
Both these places are the million house projects WTB is talking about, the national pride of Sweden :)
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jul 03 04:48:51
It is excpetionally rare that cops are murdered on duty in Sweden. When it happenes it is almost a matter of national mourning.
Paramount
Member
Sat Jul 03 05:23:44
It looks like the cop was hit by a bullet by mistake while he was driving a moped. The shooter’s target was apparently some guy from a rival neighboorhood. It doesn’t remove his guilt though.

I have thought about something… these criminal terrorists shoot and kill children and women and now a police officer too, they blow up civilian housing apartments, they sell drugs, etc. Why don’t the police, the military or someone call in the artillery and take out these criminal terrorists? Maybe we can get help from NATO to combat these terrorists. If we are lucky, the so called ”million program” will get destroyed in the bombardment and the people living in Biskopsgården will flee back to their home countries, and then they can sit there and rot instead of causing troubble and deaths here. And then we can build something new in place of the ”million program”?
Rugian
Member
Sat Jul 03 09:25:22
Sweden stunned by rare shooting of police officer as gang violence worries grow

Reuters

GOTHENBURG, Sweden, July 1 (Reuters) - Swedish caretaker Prime Minister Stefan Lofven expressed outrage on Thursday over the killing of an on-duty police officer, a rarity in the Nordic country, calling it an "attack on our open society" amid growing concerns over gang violence.

The police officer in his 30s was shot and killed late on Wednesday while on duty in Biskopsgarden, a Gothenburg suburb that has been plagued by gang violence in recent years and where police have had an increased presence.

"It is with great sadness and dismay that we received the news that a policeman was shot to death last night," Lofven told a news conference. "We will never back down in the struggle against organised crime."

Sweden held a national minute of silence on Thursday to honour the slain officer.

The crime has shocked a country where fatal attacks on police officers are rare, with three killed in the last 20 years, including Wednesday's victim.

Gang violence has been in the spotlight after shootings and explosives attacks that have sometimes killed bystanders, and has become a political battleground, with left and right each seeking to claim the tougher line.

Experts disagree over the causes of Sweden's gang problem, citing lax laws, segregated urban areas, immigration and an increased drug trade.

Local police said they did not know why the officer had been attacked. They had a description of the shooter but said no arrests had been made in connection with the shooting [update: a 17 year old has since been arrested].

Right-wing opposition leader Ulf Kristersson, who earlier on Thursday abandoned his attempt to form a new government after Lofven lost a no-confidence vote last week, urged Sweden to rally and defeat what he called "domestic terrorists".

A report published this year by the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention, said Sweden had among the highest levels of fatal shootings in 22 European countries and that no other country had seen as swift an increase as Sweden.

http://www...lence-worries-grow-2021-07-01/
Paramount
Member
Sat Jul 03 10:47:30
” Experts disagree over the causes of Sweden's gang problem, citing lax laws, segregated urban areas, immigration and an increased drug trade”


I say it is because of the Americanization of Sweden. It started with McDonalds, then came gangster rap, drugs, gangs, guns, etc.

Sweden is like 20-40 years behind the US. The US had real problems with gangs and gun violence in the 70’ and the 80’s, right? Just look at movies like Colors, Boyz n the hood, Menace II Society, Blood in Blood out, which tells about that time in the US.

Sweden (only a few areas where gangsta rap is very popular) is almost there now. Although there are still gangs and shit in the US today, I believe it is not as bad as it was in the 70-80’s?
Paramount
Member
Sat Jul 03 10:57:21
All this American culture that has been flooding Sweden over the years doesn’t exactly help. I have nothing against McDonalds but all the other gangsta crap.

Take for an example this gangster movie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shottas

There is a gang in Stockholm named Shottas. The kids were probably watching this movie and thought: ”That’s how we gonna roll!”.

Sweden has got to stop the import of certain destructive American culture, music and movies.
Daemon
Member
Sat Jul 03 14:42:52
Swedes of UP don't hesitate to ask for care packages if the situation gets worse

http://www...rket-chain-hit-by-cyberattack/

One of Sweden's biggest supermarket chains said Saturday it had to temporarily close around 800 stores nationwide after a cyberattack blocked access to its checkouts.

(...)
habebe
Member
Sat Jul 03 15:22:02
"Sweden has got to stop the import of certain destructive American culture, music and movies."

Racist.
Paramount
Member
Sat Jul 03 17:50:15
It apparantly is an attack on the american software company Kaseya. Companies that are using their software suffers tremendously now.



Massive Ransomware Attack May Impact Thousands of Victims

In Sweden, most of grocery chain Coop’s more than 800 stores couldn’t open on Saturday after the attack led to a malfunction of their cash registers, spokesperson Therese Knapp told Bloomberg News

There are victims in 17 countries so far, including the U.K., South Africa, Canada, Argentina, Mexico and Spain, according to Aryeh Goretsky, a distinguished researcher at cybersecurity firm ESET.

http://www...w-in-massive-ransomware-attack
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Jul 04 05:42:32
Thanks America!
Paramount
Member
Wed Jul 07 09:34:20
Stefan Löfven is back as Prime Minister and we have a Social Democrat government again. It’s a bit immature to overthrow a government when you do not have the mathematics on your side. How much did this quarrel cost the taxpayers?

The bluebrown opposition parties should resign.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Jul 07 09:48:19
"How much did this quarrel cost the taxpayers?"

If anything this parliamentary situation is acting like a wet blanket on the usual activities of the government. It is mostly an imaginary problem and manufactured sense of urgency that is part of the political game.
Paramount
Member
Wed Jul 07 10:01:00
The important thing is that our Swedish tradition is restored – that the Social Democrats run the country. We must cherish and preserve our Swedish traditions.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Jul 07 10:38:48
Too late, your tradition is now a mish mash of American hip hop culture, Islam on a substrate of Germanic.
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