Utopia Talk / Politics / tanks rollin in2 kabul...

TheChildren Member	Tue Jul 06 10:57:58 http://www...field_at_night_didnt_tell_new/ lolz they left as fast as they culd... rememba da choppas flyin away from saigon... it official folks. it done.
Allahuakbar Member	Tue Jul 06 11:13:28 So many LOLs in that article It's end game now! http://apn...614828364f567593251aaaa167e623 BAGRAM, Afghanistan (AP) — The U.S. left Afghanistan’s Bagram Airfield after nearly 20 years by shutting off the electricity and slipping away in the night without notifying the base’s new Afghan commander, who discovered the Americans’ departure more than two hours after they left, Afghan military officials said. Afghanistan’s army showed off the sprawling air base Monday, providing a rare first glimpse of what had been the epicenter of America’s war to unseat the Taliban and hunt down the al-Qaida perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks on America. The U.S. announced Friday it had completely vacated its biggest airfield in the country in advance of a final withdrawal the Pentagon says will be completed by the end of August. “We (heard) some rumor that the Americans had left Bagram ... and finally by seven o’clock in the morning, we understood that it was confirmed that they had already left Bagram,” Gen. Mir Asadullah Kohistani, Bagram’s new commander said. U.S. military spokesman Col. Sonny Leggett did not address the specific complaints of many Afghan soldiers who inherited the abandoned airfield, instead referring to a statement last week. The statement said the handover of the many bases had been in the process soon after President Joe Biden’s mid-April announcement that America was withdrawing the last of its forces. Leggett said in the statement that they had coordinated their departures with Afghanistan’s leaders. Before the Afghan army could take control of the airfield about an hour’s drive from the Afghan capital Kabul, it was invaded by a small army of looters, who ransacked barrack after barrack and rummaged through giant storage tents before being evicted, according to Afghan military officials. “At first we thought maybe they were Taliban,” said Abdul Raouf, a soldier of 10 years. He said the the U.S. called from the Kabul airport and said “we are here at the airport in Kabul.” Kohistani insisted the Afghan National Security and Defense Force could hold on to the heavily fortified base despite a string of Taliban wins on the battlefield. The airfield also includes a prison with about 5,000 prisoners, many of them allegedly Taliban. The Taliban’s latest surge comes as the last U.S. and NATO forces pull out of the country. As of last week, most NATO soldiers had already quietly left. The last U.S. soldiers are likely to remain until an agreement to protect the Kabul Hamid Karzai International Airport, which is expected to be done by Turkey, is completed. Meanwhile, in northern Afghanistan, district after district has fallen to the Taliban. In just the last two days hundreds of Afghan soldiers fled across the border into Tajikistan rather than fight the insurgents. “In battle it is sometimes one step forward and some steps back,” said Kohistani. Kohistani said the Afghan military is changing its strategy to focus on the strategic districts. He insisted they would retake them in the coming days without saying how that would be accomplished. On display on Monday was a massive facility, the size of a small city, that had been exclusively used by the U.S. and NATO. The sheer size is extraordinary, with roadways weaving through barracks and past hangar-like buildings. There are two runways and over 100 parking spots for fighter jets known as revetments because of the blast walls that protect each aircraft. One of the two runways is 12,000 feet (3,660 meters) long and was built in 2006. There’s a passenger lounge, a 50-bed hospital and giant hangar-size tents filled with supplies such as furniture. Kohistani said the U.S. left behind 3.5 million items, all itemized by the departing U.S. military. They include tens of thousands of bottles of water, energy drinks and military ready-made meals, known as MRE’s. “When you say 3.5 million items, it is every small items, like every phone, every door knob, every window in every barracks, every door in every barracks,” he said. The big ticket items left behind include thousands of civilian vehicles, many of them without keys to start them, and hundreds of armored vehicles. Kohistani said the U.S. also left behind small weapons and the ammunition for them, but the departing troops took heavy weapons with them. Ammunition for weapons not being left behind for the Afghan military was blown up before they left. Afghan soldiers who wandered Monday throughout the base that had once seen as many as 100,000 U.S. troops were deeply critical of how the U.S. left Bagram, leaving in the night without telling the Afghan soldiers tasked with patrolling the perimeter. “In one night, they lost all the goodwill of 20 years by leaving the way they did, in the night, without telling the Afghan soldiers who were outside patrolling the area,” said Afghan soldier Naematullah, who asked that only his one name be used. Within 20 minutes of the U.S.’s silent departure on Friday, the electricity was shut down and the base was plunged into darkness, said Raouf, the soldier of 10 years who has also served in Taliban strongholds of Helmand and Kandahar provinces. The sudden darkness was like a signal to the looters, he said. They entered from the north, smashing through the first barrier, ransacking buildings, loading anything that was not nailed down into trucks. On Monday, three days after the U.S. departure, Afghan soldiers were still collecting piles of garbage that included empty water bottles, cans and empty energy drinks left behind by the looters. Kohistani, meanwhile, said the nearly 20 years of U.S. and NATO involvement in Afghanistan was appreciated but now it was time for Afghans to step up. “We have to solve our problem. We have to secure our country and once again build our country with our own hands,” he said.
Rugian Member	Tue Jul 06 11:38:43 Afghanistan at risk of collapse as Taliban storms the north BY BILL ROGGIO | July 5, 2021 | admin@longwarjournal.org | @billroggio Afghanistan is at risk of complete collapse after the Taliban has made dramatic gains in recent days, striking at the heart of the Afghan government’s base of power in the north while seizing control of large areas of the country – often unopposed by government forces. The security situation has deteriorated rapidly. In the lax six days alone, the Taliban has taken control of 38 of Afghanistan’s 407 districts – nearly 10 percent of the country – and most all of them in critical areas. In all, the Taliban currently controls 195 districts and contests another 129 districts, according to the real time assessments by FDD’s Long War Journal. Prior to the Taliban’s offensive, which began in earnest on May 1 – upon expiration of the date that the U.S. government originally committed to completing its withdrawal under the Doha Agreement – the Taliban controlled just 73 districts and contested another 210. Put simply: The Afghan government controls only a little more than 20 percent of the country at the moment. http://www...s-taliban-storms-the-north.php
Rugian Member	Tue Jul 06 11:39:16 ^ 20 years in that shithole, and thats what we have to show for it. Good fucking game.
Paramount Member	Wed Jul 07 10:19:27 The Americans left behind about 3.5 million items, Gen Kohistani said, including tens of thousands of bottles of water, energy drinks and military ready-made meals, known as MREs. They also left behind thousands of civilian vehicles, without keys, and hundreds of armoured vehicles, the Associated Press reported. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-57682290 Looks like the Talibans won and that they are going to come out stronger than they were in 2001.
murder Member	Sun Jul 11 19:02:23 "20 years in that shithole, and thats what we have to show for it." You can't want it more than the locals. If after 20 years Afghans still aren't organized and prepared to fight, then we might want to consider that the majority simply prefer Taliban rule.
Dukhat Member	Mon Jul 12 00:35:24 Similar shit as Vietnam. We elevated fucking Karzai and his idiot family of busboys to the leadership and created a sycophant elite class that would rather find some way to get citizenship in the US than fight for their country. When the fighting got hard, the leadership was incompetent and all the troops ran away. All of the elite class has already fled. Let’s just hope what results is not some new terrorist enclave.
Habebe Member	Mon Jul 12 02:44:51 This sounds selfish, but Im ok.with that. The Taliban at this point I dont think want to tempt western powers,they see its probably more trouble than its worth. The Taliban will likely pressure the government for political power, it suits their interests better than a full on military takeover. Anyway, with the US not being a major target, let them fight it out with more localized targets, mainly Iran and to a lesser degree China. They wont openly threaten China, but we should probably use our great skills in interference and encouraging terrorism to mayne be more sympathetic to the Uighyer cause.
Habebe Member	Mon Jul 12 02:44:51 This sounds selfish, but Im ok.with that. The Taliban at this point I dont think want to tempt western powers,they see its probably more trouble than its worth. The Taliban will likely pressure the government for political power, it suits their interests better than a full on military takeover. Anyway, with the US not being a major target, let them fight it out with more localized targets, mainly Iran and to a lesser degree China. They wont openly threaten China, but we should probably use our great skills in interference and encouraging terrorism to mayne be more sympathetic to the Uighyer cause.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Jul 12 11:15:40 I said in 2001 we just glass the place and leave. Should have listened to me.
Hrothgar Member	Mon Jul 12 12:43:37 I still think Iraq and to a lesser degree Syria where a huge wrench thrown into the spokes of the Afghanistan effort. Iraq took so much attention and resources away from intelligent nation building efforts (if there is such a thing) in the critical 10 years post 9/11. In any case, Bin Laden is dead and at the bottom of the ocean. His terrorism org a shattered shadow of it's former self mostly fighting other extremist Muslims than anyone else. Hardly what any of us would call "failure" immediately following 9/11.
Forwyn Member	Mon Jul 12 14:50:09 Where are all of the 2018 Kurd whiners at?
Rugian Member	Mon Jul 12 15:05:14 To be fair, the same idiots who were saying that we needed to stay in Syria are now crying bloody murder about the withdrawal. Its amusing to see how the the Democrats have become the new neocons on foreign policy in recent years.
swordtail Anarchist Prime	Tue Jul 13 10:05:23 http://pbs...oAELmfN?format=jpg&name=medium
Dukhat Member	Tue Jul 13 11:14:04 The Kurd abandonment was worse. Kurds can actually fight and hold their ground if we properly equip them. And the Afghan abandonment is worse because the Afghanis can't. The worst part is the horrible deals Trump negotiated in each case. We could've easily gotten better terms and also used the threat of airpower and drones to easily support our allies without any risk in US life.
Habebe Member	Tue Jul 13 11:21:46 What a shock, Dukhat wants more war. Let Iran and China deal.with it.
Habebe Member	Tue Jul 13 11:23:23 Saddaam kept Iraqis in line, as shitty as he was, he was better than what we have now.
Dukhat Member	Tue Jul 13 13:24:25 Cuckservatives don't want war and then these failed states end up killing more Americans and/or spiking the price of oil and then they're all about invading these places. Pax Americana depends on the use of our military. I'm for whatever causes the least amount of death over the next 100 years and not just the next news cycle.
Dukhat Member	Tue Jul 13 13:30:12 judicious use of our military*
TheChildren Member	Tue Jul 13 14:50:22 they see me rollin' they hatin' patrollin' and tryna catch me ridin' dirty tryna catch me ridin' dirty tryna catch me ridin' dirty my music so loud
Allahuakbar Member	Sat Jul 24 17:55:16 Comforting the enemy! http://www...ranslator-us-army-beheaded.amp Afghan translator who worked for US Army reportedly beheaded by Taliban Sohail Pardis was beheaded after being suspected as an American spy
Habebe Member	Sat Jul 24 19:33:52 Pahn till ACKbroa mahl ki thry Kuhn tui. Pogo twon gummeesar!
Rugian Member	Fri Aug 06 09:49:04 August 6, 2021 The Taliban took control of Zaranj, the capital of Nimruz province, without a fight. The western locale is the first provincial capital to fall under Taliban control since it launched its offensive across the country in May. http://www...uz-province-seizes-capital.php
Rugian Member	Sat Aug 07 11:50:46 August 7, 2021 The Taliban took control of its second provincial capital today. Shibirghan, the capital of the northern province of Jawzjan and the home of warlord Marshall Abdul Rashid Dostum, fell to the Taliban. Dostum and his followers abandoned Shibirghan today and fled to the district of Khwaja Dako, TOLONews reported. Khwaja Dako hosts the city’s airport, and is the only district in Jawzjan under government control. The other 10 districts in Jawzjan are under Taliban control, according to an ongoing assessment of the security situation in Afghanistan by FDD’s Long War Journal. The Taliban pressed its offensive on Shibirghan several days from districts it controlled that surrounded the city. The Afghan military sent reinforcements, but they were unable to hold off the Taliban assault on the city. http://www...-second-provincial-capital.php
Average Ameriacn Member	Sat Aug 07 14:35:13 9/11 we will never forget! http://www...as-taliban-advances-2021-8?amp The US has sent B-52 bombers and Spectre gunships to Afghanistan in a bid to stop Taliban insurgents who are marching towards three key cities. The B-52s are flying into Afghanistan from an airbase in Qatar, hitting targets around Kandahar, Herat, and Lashkar Gah in Helmand province, sources told The Times.
Forwyn Member	Sat Aug 07 19:56:41 "failed states" How was Syria in any danger of becoming a failed state without our help, Cuckhat?
Habebe Member	Sat Aug 07 21:31:45 Our whole beef with the Taliban was that they gave shelter to Osama. Osama had the means to attack US soil, the Taliban is pretty local.After all this I doubt they will even assualt US bases innthe region.So what is the threat?
Paramount Member	Sun Aug 08 15:55:15 Maybe they never did give shelter to OBL. The Talibans could not hand him over to the US because he was not there. OBL was supposedly found in Pakistan after all.
Habebe Member	Sun Aug 08 16:05:12 Paramount, Entirely possible I guess.
Rugian Member	Wed Aug 11 06:08:35 "August 10, 2021 Nine of Afghanistan’s 34 provincial capitals have fallen to the Taliban in the past five days. On Aug. 6, the capital of the southwestern province of Nimruz, Zaranj, was lost after the governor and security forces abandoned the city. The next day, on Aug. 7, the Taliban seized control of Shibirghan, the capital of the northern province of Jawzjan. The following day, on Aug. 8, the Taliban overran the capitals of Kunduz, Sar-i-Pul, and Takhar provinces, also in the north. On Aug. 9, the Taliban took control of Aybak in Samangan. The Taliban seized control of Farah City in Farah province and Pul-i-Khumri in Baghlan province earlier today." http://www...alls-under-taliban-control.php
Paramount Member	Wed Aug 11 08:19:32 The Talibans has grabbed all the military hardware, vehicles and shit, that the US gave to the Afghan government/army. Lol The Talibans are basically steamrolling Afghanistan now. Blitzkrieg. Afghan police and army are running away. All that money that the US invested. Over $1 trillion. And every american (thousands) who died in Afghanistan – it’s all been in vain. It was for nothing.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Aug 11 08:25:29 Don't worry the Qods force will save the day and beat back the Salafist hordes, like it did in Syria.
Rugian Member	Thu Aug 12 11:40:07 Ghazni fell. That's provincial capital #10. I'm seeing reports on Twitter that Kandahar just fell as well; that's a huge one if true.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Aug 12 11:47:15 Taliban in the center of Herat...
Rugian Member	Thu Aug 12 12:35:21 ^saw that. And the US is apparently begging the Taliban to spare its embassy when it begins its inevitable assault on Kabul. Where in the actual fuck is the Afghan army right now?
TheChildren Member	Thu Aug 12 12:45:44 Wtf r u beyond stupid or what? hahaha. do u know how much stupid u is talkin right now. Like that is how much they brainwashed u all these years in da media. what army. Da whole country is behind taliban, like literally 98% of aghanistan support them. ur completely deluded in2 actually thinkin u culd win this war. da fuck? u honestly think u havent actually lost this war. what u think was gonna happen when u pull troops out? it coz it an actual loss and followin an actual loss u r now seein what losin means. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om2gaYLCaRI lol get some actual grip on reality. ur media is a brainwash tool
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Aug 12 15:33:50 Herat has fallen to the Taliban.
Sam Adams Member	Thu Aug 12 16:05:11 "Where in the actual fuck is the Afghan army right now?" Same place as the south viatnamese army and iraqi army. Puppet armies dont fight. This is known. Should have just nuked Afghanistan back in 2001 and left.
Allahuakbar Member	Fri Aug 13 02:26:07 http://alemarahenglish.net/?p=48380 What does fall of provincial capitals without fighting mean? Date: August 12, 2021 The commencement of liberating provincial capitals after the liberation of 200 districts of Afghanistan by the Islamic Emirate is a positive step towards ending the prevalent chaos and establishing peace in the country. With the Help of Allah the Almighty and cooperation of the people in liberated provinces, the Mujahideen succeeded in clearing the capitals of Nimroz, Jowzjan, Sar-e-Pul, Takhar, Kunduz and Samangan provinces. These were liberated without any military resistance and its people saw the establishment of peace. Liberating these provincial capitals without battle makes it very clear that the Kabul government has now lost all public support and that Afghan forces no longer want to sacrifice themselves for the survival of this corrupt puppet government. The Islamic Emirate, which possesses good experience of conquering districts without a fight, seeks to conquer provincial capitals based on that positive experience. As of now, this has proven a success in which, by the grace of Allah, civilian casualties have been largely avoided. Yet the war-mongering circles of the Kabul quisling government do not want that the people of these provincial capitals be blessed with peace and to spend a few days in the shade of order and tranquility. It has bombed densely populated cities such as Zaranj and Kunduz, causing heavy loss of life and property to the people living there. To bomb provincial capitals is to massacre unarmed civilians. Therefore, it is the responsibility of human rights organizations based inside the country to aid in stopping the indiscriminate bombardment of liberated areas and to save helpless Afghan citizens residents from massacre.
Average Ameriacn Member	Sat Aug 14 08:08:03 Biden does not respect THE FLAG, this would have never happened under POTUS Trump! http://www...anistan-shred-documents-2021-8 The US embassy in Kabul is shredding documents and disposing of American flags over fears the building could soon be overrun by the Taliban J. Epstein 16 hours ago US embassy staff in Kabul were told to start destroying documents as the Taliban advances, according to Bloomberg. The notice to staff in Afghanistan's capital city also asked that anything with a US logo or flag be destroyed. The memo showed the seriousness of the Taliban threat as US officials claimed the retreat was not an "evacuation." Staff at the US embassy in Kabul were told on Friday to destroy sensitive material, highlighting fears that the Taliban may soon overrun the building in Afghanistan's capital city, according to Bloomberg. The notice to American personnel sent from the embassy facilities manager asked that staff destroy anything with US logos, flags, or other items "which could be misused in propaganda efforts," the report said. The memo reportedly told diplomats how they destroy materials: using burn bins and shredders for paper, incinerators for medical waste, a compactor to crush large items, and a disintegrator for electronics. The Pentagon said Thursday that 3,000 additional US troops will be sent to the Kabul airport to assist with the American evacuation, as the Taliban make rapid gains across Afghanistan. Taliban forces have been overrunning Afghan government posts, sending thousands of civilians fleeing to Kabul. The embassy's memo does not apply to weapons or ammunition, according to Bloomberg, which also cited two Biden administration officials who said the destruction procedure is standard when a US outpost overseas is being "scaled down." During a briefing Thursday, State Department spokesman Ned Price claimed the US's moves are not an evacuation. "This is not abandonment. This is not an evacuation. This is not the wholesale withdrawal," he said. "What this is is a reduction in the size of our civilian footprint. This is a drawdown of civilian Americans who will in many cases be able to perform their important functions elsewhere, whether that's in the United States or elsewhere in the region." NOW WATCH: Making these three lifestyle changes will help you take the best poop, according to science
Hrothgar Member	Sat Aug 14 10:13:26 "Where in the actual fuck is the Afghan army right now?" It's been bloody obvious since around 2010 imo that there never will be a independently functional secular Afghan army under the NATO recognized government. The culture can't widely support that type of 'die for your nation' commitment for that leadership/organization. It's like if Trump became US emperor and tried to build a San Francisco or New York Trump army. There are so few honestly committed potential soldiers in those populations that it would fall apart without an extremely strong outside force hand holding the effort. And the moment the hand holding is gone it just fades away, no one involved independently feeling the cause is worth dying for. That ridiculous metaphor is basically what has been happening in Afghanistan the past few months since hand holding NATO has decided it's done with the place.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Aug 15 05:59:39 Wow, Kabul is the last major city left. Cities and forces have just surrendered without firing a shot.
Allahuakbar Member	Sun Aug 15 06:11:50 What a glorious day to be a Muslim! Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden are all in tears! http://www...-cutting-off-kabul-to-the-east KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — Taliban fighters entered the outskirts of the Afghan capital on Sunday and said they were awaiting a "peaceful transfer" of the city after promising not to take it by force, but panicked residents raced to the leave, with workers fleeing government offices and helicopters landing at the U.S. Embassy. In a nationwide offensive that has taken just over a week, the Taliban has defeated, co-opted or sent Afghan security forces fleeing from wide swaths of the country, even though they had some air support from the U.S. military. On Sunday, they reached Kabul. Three Afghan officials told The Associated Press that the Taliban were in the districts of Kalakan, Qarabagh and Paghman in the capital. Later, Afghan forces at Bagram air base, home to a prison housing 5,000 inmates, surrendered to the Taliban, according to Bagram district chief Darwaish Raufi. The prison housed both Taliban and Islamic State group fighters. The lightning speed of the push has shocked many and raised questions about why Afghan forces crumbled despite years of U.S. training and billions of dollars spent. Just days ago, an American military assessment estimated it would be a month before the capital would come under insurgent pressure.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Aug 15 06:14:34 Things are developing very quickly. It’s over. The US retreat isn’t even finished and it’s already over.
Allahuakbar Member	Sun Aug 15 06:24:27 Kabul :-) http://pbs...AU6gJX?format=jpg&name=900x900
Seb Member	Sun Aug 15 06:31:44 Been watching the quiet and desperate struggle of NGOs trying to get funds abs tickets to evacuate various women and human rights activists out of Kabul this weekend. Can't get them out - no Western countries will have visas. They will likely all he executed. Shameful behaviour of the West.
Seb Member	Sun Aug 15 06:33:22 Sam: Counterpoint: South Korea. Took 20-30 years before South Korea stopped being a joke. This stuff takes consistency.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Aug 15 07:19:15 The cost of that is that we now have North Korea, one of the most absurdly horrific places in the world. Another Vietnam would have arguably been prefered over a deranged hermit kingdom armed with nukes.
Seb Member	Sun Aug 15 07:35:10 Why would you not have just had a deranged hermit kingdom with more territory? And I wonder if South Koreans agree we your assessment that it would have been better to grow up under the Kims.
Seb Member	Sun Aug 15 07:37:33 "the cost of US intervention to prevent Kim IL sung taking over the entire Korean peninsula is that Kim Il sung only retained the North" is quite the bad take.
Rugian Member	Sun Aug 15 07:39:05 South Korea didn't have a major insurgency operating within a deeply tribal system that limited the central government's power to areas where it maintained an active military presence heavily bolstered by US air power. Let's just get rid of that comparison right away.
Seb Member	Sun Aug 15 08:21:26 Rugian: The Korean war literally started with a communist backed insurgency in the South followed by an invasion of conventional forces.
Rugian Member	Sun Aug 15 08:24:34 The Taliban took Mazar-e Sharif yesterday. That means they control 4 out of Afghanistan's 5 largest cities. The Afghan Army has now lost 6 of its 7 corps headquarters. Kabul is increasingly being encircled from both the western and Eastern approaches. The Taliban have managed to take more than have of the country's provinces in 9 (9!) days. And Bagram was just surrendered to the Taliban. This is one for the history books boys. Phantom army or no, it is truly astounding how quickly the government lost control of things as soon as we left.
Rugian Member	Sun Aug 15 08:28:09 Seb Was that communist-backed insurgency still operating in 1968, and with the strength to take the entire country the moment US forces withdrew? To put it another way. We invaded Afghanistan in 2001, and it's now 2021. What year, in your opinion, would Afghanistan have been likely to stabilize and become a secure liberal democracy had we only stuck it out?
Seb Member	Sun Aug 15 08:37:15 Rugian: No, but equally there were far more US troops then. Part of the reason the US was never able to quell Afghanistan was is very obvious ambivalence to the whole affair.
Paramount Member	Sun Aug 15 08:38:26 Taliban fighters on outskirts of Afghan capital Taliban fighters were on the outskirts of Kabul on Sunday and on the brink of a complete military takeover of Afghanistan, but a spokesman said they had been ordered not to enter the city. The order came as residents reported seeing insurgents peacefully enter some of Kabul's outer suburbs. "The Islamic Emirate instructs all its forces to stand at the gates of Kabul, not to try to enter the city," a spokesman for the Taliban tweeted. "Don't panic! Kabul is safe!" tweeted Matin Bek, President Ashraf Ghani's chief of staff. http://afp...irts-of-afghan-capital/a/OryPb lol
Paramount Member	Sun Aug 15 08:39:28 Wait… the Talibans are allowee to tweet but not the former president of the United States? LOL
Paramount Member	Sun Aug 15 08:45:48 "Don't panic! Kabul is safe!" That is actually the signal to the people to start panicking. Oh no, I don’t have any popcorn at home.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Aug 15 08:48:39 Seb Because there is nothing unique with North korea compared to Vietnam, Cambodia or any other country that went through communist inspired revolutions. They all went insane at start and either moderated or collapsed. The insanity of North Korea and the absurd level of insularity that allows it to keep going is intrisically tied to being caught between the DMZ and China.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Aug 15 08:50:45 Guys guys, it’s over. Ghani has left Afghanistan, the Taliban are in power already.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Aug 15 08:54:11 Seb ” And I wonder if South Koreans agree we your assessment that it would have been better to grow up under the Kims.” I wouldn’t if I was south korean, but my remark was bigger in scope. Like when I say Israel should never have been created, Israelis will disagree with that.
Paramount Member	Sun Aug 15 08:56:06 KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — Taliban fighters entered Kabul on Sunday and sought the unconditional surrender of the central government, officials said, as Afghans and foreigners alike raced for the exit, signaling the end of a 20-year Western experiment aimed at remaking Afghanistan. http://apn...ed33fe0c665ee67ba132c51b8e32a5 ”We spent over $1 trillion over 20 years. We trained and equipped with modern equipment over 300,000 Afghan forces," Biden said at a news conference. "And Afghan leaders have to come together. We lost thousands, we lost to death and injury, thousands of American personnel.” — Joe Biden ”But I do not regret my decision.” — Joe Biden http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/567216-biden-says-he-does-not-regret-afghanistan-withdrawal So Afghanistan had a modern army of 300,000, with modern US equipment. And they all surrendered, they ran away and handed over all the American equipment to the Talibans? lol
Paramount Member	Sun Aug 15 08:58:33 This Taliban victory is on a EPIC scale.
Rugian Member	Sun Aug 15 09:11:03 Seb So what are you arguing, exactly? Thatthe US should have kept 250,000 troops in Afghanistan for 35+ years and assisted a series of strongman rulers in brutally massacring anyone who might be opposed to the new regime? Is that what you're arguing we should have done? And anyway, we do have a recent comparative example in Iraq, where we maintenance 100,000+ armies of occupation for years on end. And look at how badly that turned out. We spent TWENTY YEARS doing things your way in the Middle East. And its been nothing but failure after failure there.
Paramount Member	Sun Aug 15 09:12:56 ”US military analysis says Kabul could fall to Taliban in 90 days: Official” Literally the next day the Talibans enter Kabul and president Ghani flees from Afghanistan. lol How is it possible to be so wrong? Maybe the military analysts were employed by Trump, and Biden hasn’t had the time to replace with competent people yet?
Rugian Member	Sun Aug 15 09:13:57 Paramount Member Sun Aug 15 08:58:33 "This Taliban victory is on a EPIC scale." Pretty much.
murder Member	Sun Aug 15 09:48:58 "How is it possible to be so wrong?" US officers giving their bosses overly rosy evaluations of the "soldiers" they were equipping and training. The French put up stronger resistance than the Afghan army.
murder Member	Sun Aug 15 09:51:09 My favorite part of all this is Afghans talking about how they feel betrayed by the US ... while they don't do a single god damn thing to resist the Taliban. Apparently 20 years just isn't enough to learn how to fire a rifle.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Aug 15 09:53:12 And easy feat when you literally don’t resist and flee, defect or desert. Or simply as the case with probably half of Afghanistans ”300 000 strong military”, only exist on paper so some corrupt military commanders and officers can collect the paycheck.
murder Member	Sun Aug 15 10:14:26 Even if the Afghan army was vapor, the Taliban is not exactly a superpower blowing through. They are mostly guys on the back of pickup trucks with AK47s and RPGs. Some Afghans seem to prefer the situation they had ... just don't ask them to dirty their fingernails to preserve it.
Rugian Member	Sun Aug 15 10:27:10 Ghost army or not, it still escapes me how a couple of hundred guys in Toyota pickup trucks can drive into to a city with a half million people and take it with virtually no resistance. Like, how is that even possible? NO ONE was willing to try to fight them off?
murder Member	Sun Aug 15 10:30:00 No, not even the women that are about to get the worst of it.
Allahuakbar Member	Sun Aug 15 10:39:58 We are all Muslims, why should we fight each other in Afghanistan? We have learned from our past mistakes... WE ARE ONE!
Paramount Member	Sun Aug 15 11:12:08 Suhail Shaheen. محمد سهیل شاهین @suhailshaheen1 The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan is not interested in anyone's private property, (not in anyone's cars, land, houses, markets and shops), rather it considers protection of lives and properties of the nation its primary responsibility. http://twi...tatus/1426738033987031040?s=20 Maybe the Talibans are that bad. Their spokesperson promise to protect lives and property.
Seb Member	Sun Aug 15 11:39:02 "Because there is nothing unique with North korea compared to Vietnam, Cambodia" Aren't you the one always saying countries are not Atoms? Murder: "Apparently 20 years just isn't enough to learn how to fire a rifle." More a painful awareness that without ongoing American military commitment they don't have a sustainable supply chain for any of that stuff. Being trained in COIN by the US army probably puts rather too much emphasis on air support.
murder Member	Sun Aug 15 11:43:21 Seb: Please! The US was more than happy to supply them. Certainly better than the Taliban is supplied. They just won't fight.
Rugian Member	Sun Aug 15 11:59:13 Well Seb is partially right in that the entire US approach for training the ANA was completely retarded. By insisting on building an army that was reliant on air support/intel, the army's effectiveness became heavily dependent on US forces that provided those services. The moment the US withdrew, the ANA lost a large amount of the tactical advantage it had over the Taliban. But Seb fails to see the more fundamental problem, which is that ANY iteration of a national Afghan army was doomed to be hugely flawed in a country where few people have any real faith in or loyalty to a national central government. The only solutions that Seb (and those that think like Seb) ever had for that problem were either a) some variant of the US effectively staying in Afghanistan forever or b) going the full Sam Adams approach of absolutely murdering everyone in the country until they submitted. Those were simply not acceptable choices.
murder Member	Sun Aug 15 12:03:29 I don't know. Option B has a strong appeal.
Seb Member	Sun Aug 15 13:38:32 Murder: Problem is, nobody really believes you'll stick to it if you haven't got skin in the game. The ANA order of battle depends on capabilities that Afghanistan can't sustain locally and which nobody believes the US will continue to provide when it's troops are gone. Hence everyone runs for the hills. Rugian: Actually if you could go back to the old site you'd find me telling Sam that the collapse of the Taliban was them heading for the hills, that they would wait for the US to get bored and come back, and that they should be looking at the Malayan Emergency for approaches. The US did actually adopt something similar "Ink blot" strategy, but the failure to co-op Afghan societal structure and an over focus on central govt and elections over building local institutions and delivering tangible benefits was a huge error. As was making creating a durable set of institutions secondary to the war on drugs. Murder: And then as soon as you leave, you end up back here again. Might as well save the bombas.
Allahuakbar Member	Sun Aug 15 14:54:12 http://apn...94266cda1492f4128363572bc2cff6 KABUL, Afghanistan — The Al-Jazeera news network is airing footage of a large group of Taliban fighters inside the presidential palace in the capital of Afghanistan. The Taliban are expected to announce their takeover from the palace, renaming the country as the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. The militants have taken over most of Afghanistan in a matter of days as the U.S. scrambles to withdraw after 20 years of war.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Sun Aug 15 15:49:54 thoughts by Peter Galbraith (Former deputy head of the UN Mission in Afghanistan) & who he blames: " I watch the Taliban takeover of Afghanistan with disbelief and horror. I first visited the country with the mujahideen on February 14, 1989--the day the Soviets withdrew --and served there as Deputy Head of the UN mission in 2009. So much went wrong but here is my very partial list of those most responsible for the fiasco. 1. The Afghan political and military leaders who were more interested in staying in power than doing anything while in office except for stealing as much as they could. 2. The US government which pumped so much money into Afghanistan that there was a lot to steal and it was easily stolen. 3. Hamid Karzai--Afghanistan's first president was corrupt, ineffective, weird, and--after the massive fraud that accompanied his reelection, illegitimate. In 2009, he organized the fraud that got him a second term. That enabled him and his cronies to steal everything else. 4. Ban ki-Moon, the UN Secretary General who tolerated the massive fraud in the UN sponsored (and paid for) Afghanistan 2009 presidential elections. This undermined Obama's surge which may have been the last chance to get it right. 5. David Petraeus, the other US military commanders and the so called strategic thinkers who all declared the Afghanistan War to be a counter-insurgency and also stated that successful counter-insuegencies require a local partner. They then pretended the corrupt Afghan government was a real partner when they knew it wasn't. 6. USAID which built roads intended to raise rural incomes by getting farm products to market but actually enabled corrupt police to shakedown farmers. This won the Taliban new supporters and the new roads gave the Taliban speedy access to previously defensible areas like the Pansjir Valley (which neither the Soviets nor the pre 2001 Taliban ever took). 7. Ashraf Ghani, Afghanistan second president, who was a victim of Karzai's fraud in the 2009 presidential elections and willingly took office--twice--thanks to massive electoral fraud. Ashraf is personally honest but when you come into office thanks to a stolen election, it is hard to crack down on the corrupt power brokers who got you there. 8. The US and UN architects of Afghanistan's highly centralized constitution that was utterly inappropriate for a country that is as ethnically and geographically diverse as Afghanistan. Not only did the Constitution concentrate all power in Kabul at the expense of the provinces and districts but it also gave all power within Kabul to a Pashtun president as opposed to sharing power with an ethnically diverse parliament. The rapid collapse follows a surrender agreement negotiated by Donald Trump and implemented by the Biden Administration. There is no reason to think the outcome would be any different if the US took another ten years to withdraw. "
murder Member	Sun Aug 15 17:24:46 "Hence everyone runs for the hills." Seb: They were running for the hills the whole time. Soldiers came and went as they pleased. The reality is that they were just doing it for the paycheck. They were never a fighting force. Commanders on the ground were lying about the Afghan soldiers' willingness to fight. It doesn't matter if we had skin in the game. THEY had skin in the game. They chose to shed it and run. History is full of armed groups that fought superior forces and even global powers. You may be familiar with some of that history. And the Taliban wasn't any of that. The Taliban is little more than poorly armed rabble. But they are willing to fight and die for a cause unlike the "professional soldiers" of the Afghan army.
Seb Member	Sun Aug 15 17:56:58 Murder: That's the point: they had skin in the game, but no confidence they could win. You build an army that can only win with intelligence, air support, and an expensive industrial supply chain; and they know that's only going to be around as long as the Americans are around, then it's going to evaporate the moment the Americans leave. "The Taliban is little more than poorly armed rabble" It's armed well enough, is strength is it's relative unity and ability to organise. You can easily beat a tank if it's got no supply chain. Eventually it runs out of rounds and gas.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Aug 15 18:11:24 If it makes you guys feel better, entire cities surrendered without a fight in the civil war in Afghanistan during the 90's as well. The facts will come out later I am sure, but deals had been made with people, a fifth column has existed within the NATO puppet regime. Former people in the old regime will have positions in the new, they already have.
Rugian Member	Sun Aug 15 18:11:24 Seb A "Malaysian Emergency" approach, as in massacring civilians and putting a huge chunk of the population in internment camps? You're more like Sam Adams than I think I appreciated.
Sam Adams Member	Sun Aug 15 20:37:02 "desperate struggle of NGOs trying to get funds abs tickets to evacuate various women and human rights activists" Oh no. Anyway.
Paramount Member	Mon Aug 16 01:28:58 More people died of gun shot wounds in the US yesterday than during the Taliban’s offensive to take Kabul. San Antonio sports bar shooting leaves 3 dead, 2 wounded, authorities say (CNN)An argument between two people at a bar in San Antonio, Texas, ended in a mass shooting early Sunday, with three people killed and two others gravely wounded, San Antonio Police Chief William McManus said.
Seb Member	Mon Aug 16 01:48:17 Paramount: There are plenty of pictures and confirmed reports of people on hit lists being executed in front of their families.
Seb Member	Mon Aug 16 02:39:26 http://pre...amp/?__twitter_impression=true Interesting perspective.
Paramount Member	Mon Aug 16 02:54:57 It seems that 5 civilians died at the airport in Kabul yesterday. The US controls the airport and is responsible for the safety there.
Seb Member	Mon Aug 16 03:43:15 This also: http://twi...tatus/1427148689387278340?s=19
Seb Member	Mon Aug 16 03:44:23 Paramount: I do love how you have managed to convince yourself that the Taliban didn't shoot people at the airport. Pretty good powers of self deception there.
Paramount Member	Mon Aug 16 03:55:42 If the Talibans shot people at the airport in Kabul, wouldn’t the US forces that are there, respond? ”This also: http://twi...tatus/1427148689387278340?s=19” Andrew @turningbones · 2h Pompeo's deal and Trump stating the Taliban are a force of good … ^ Well, this is kinda what Rugian is hinting at also, in the other thread. Conservatives seems to like the Talibans. Wasn’t Reagan who said that thr Talibans are like the American founding fathers? lol
Seb Member	Mon Aug 16 04:30:33 Paramount: "If the Talibans shot people at the airport in Kabul, wouldn’t the US forces that are there, respond?" 1. Airports are big places 2. What makes you think they didn't? 3. Not necessarily - they need the airport open to evacuate and if the Taliban have the ability to stop flights, then perhaps de-escalation would be order of the day.
Seb Member	Mon Aug 16 04:31:20 If they don't control the city, it only takes a few folks with RPGs or manpads to leave a host of western diplomats effective hostages to the Taliban.
Paramount Member	Mon Aug 16 05:25:13 It seems that it was the US who shot the civilians http://twi...tatus/1427159233745805320?s=21
Paramount Member	Mon Aug 16 05:26:34 http://twi...tatus/1427168827712888833?s=21
Paramount Member	Mon Aug 16 06:17:23 They fled from the Talibans but then the Americans killed them. Maybe when the West is gone from Afghanistan the random killings will stop?
murder Member	Mon Aug 16 06:42:45 Afghans will do anything to avoid fighting for their own freedom ... including run into gunfire. I'm starting to think that these people are retarded.
murder Member	Mon Aug 16 06:46:14 Joe Biden should offer a rifle, a box of ammunition, and a free ride to Afghanistan to everyone criticizing the withdrawal. They would easily outnumber and outgun the Taliban.
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