Utopia Talk / Politics / inferior crapzer vaccine 39%

TheChildren Member	Sat Jul 24 04:56:20 straight from da isrealis. http://www...l-prevents-severe-illness.html rofl cry more.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sat Jul 24 08:20:56 Only thing that matters is hospitalization and death, with the vaccine covid is "just a flu".
Seb Member	Sat Jul 24 09:21:04 Nim: Maybe. I'd like to know what impact the vaccine has on non-respiriatory symptoms.
Hrothgar Member	Sat Jul 24 09:30:58 -- The efficacy figure, which is based on an unspecified number of people between June 20 and July 17, is down from an earlier estimate of 64% two weeks ago and conflicts with data out of the U.K. that found the shot was 88% effective against symptomatic disease caused by the variant. -- That's a large gap in full disease effectiveness conflicting with each other out of different regions.
Seb Member	Sat Jul 24 09:51:40 Hrothgar: Actually I think you have confused the measures - the UK and Israeli data are well aligned on sever/hospitalisation cases and symptomatic cases, but PHE has not yet published figures for asymptomatic cases, which is what the 39% refers to. Effectiveness against Hospitalisation/Severe disease Israeli data: 91% PHE data: 96% Effectiveness against symptomatic infection: Israeli data: 88% PHE data: 88% Effectiveness against asymptomatic infection: Isaerli data: 39% PHE data: NA http://www...9a-a702-40d2-876d-b12a524dc9a5 http://www.gov.uk/government/news/vaccines-highly-effective-against-hospitalisation-from-delta-variant
Seb Member	Sat Jul 24 09:55:27 The takeaway is that the Pfizer vaccine will not protect you from getting delta, and may not have much impact on the spread of the disease in society generally. It will offer protection from getting respiratory symptoms and going to hospital. However, we don't know if it will protect you from other symptoms we are starting to see. Therefore the correct approach ought to have been to use vaccines alongside other measures to try and pursue a near elimination of the disease, rather than accepting it as being permanently endemic at a high level. The risk here is we are creating pressures that support selection of vaccine escape variants.
Seb Member	Sat Jul 24 10:01:22 Hmm, scratch that: Apparently the Israeli figures are 39% for asymptomatic infection and 41% for symptomatic, so there is a mismatch. The problem is I don't think we are getting great reporting on this - in terms of clear like-for-like comparisons between measures. cf. for example this Forbes article: http://www...tudy-suggests/?sh=4b865dd2584f Also thresholds for hospitalisation vary - particularly on factors like how full the wards are.
TheChildren Member	Sat Jul 24 10:16:54 lets face some facts. israel da only country that fully uses pfizer only. no other country has started as early with pfizer with so many % of peoples. thus israel is actually ahead in data pfizer and corona. shuldnt bought sinovac. told yall it da better shit. lol
TheChildren Member	Sat Jul 24 10:20:08 i mean, we shuldve bought sinovac. da superior product. told yall.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Jul 24 13:05:54 "The risk here is we are creating pressures that support selection of vaccine escape variants." That is inevitable in any treatment, ever. The solution of course is a booster shot aimed at delta. The mrna companies have claimed that mrna vaxes can be updated easily. Lets see if that claim is true.
Sam Adams Member	Sat Jul 24 13:11:53 "If we had done that, tens thousands of people would have died as having AZ protects will against serious presentations." It remains to be seen how many AZ will kill by being your vax of choice and not being as good. I suspect that giving your people AZ early will ultimately have saved lives but that is still to be determined. Bottom line, if your scientists were better we wouldnt be having this conversation at all.
TheChildren Member	Sat Jul 24 15:29:48 "Lets see if that claim is true. " >> rofl sales talk and reality r like oil and water...
Seb Member	Sat Jul 24 16:25:38 Sam: "t remains to be seen how many AZ will kill by being your vax of choice and not being as good" Sam, you clearly don't understand the UK strategy. The UK placed orders across a broad portfolio of manufacturers of different technology types - essentially adopted a VC strategy looking at a range of different approaches to satisfying a particular market demand. This spreads risk. The three goals: 1. Secure enough vaccine to immunise the country 2. Spread risk across a portfolio to mitigate risk of any particular product failing to materialise 3. Ensure domestic manufacturing capability and supply chain to mitigate risks of vaccine nationalism (this last one was important, look how the EU behaved). The bulk of our orders were placed across six different manufacturers and three to four different technology types; with a focus on securing creation of domestic supply chain for those technologies. Pfizer and Astrazenica hit the market first - and the largest two orders. Both are the key workhorses of the program, and it is wrong to say the AZ is the focus. The adenovirus technology was the one easiest to set up at scale domestically and the one we could secure most dedicated supply. The pfizer order was similarly large but based on what Pfizer had available to sell from it's belgian hub. In terms of tech transfer, the UK put a lot into setting up AZ manufacturing capability both as funder of the tech, but also as a customer and strategic desire to secure supply - the existing pharma industry in the uk lent itself to producing a lot of that quickly. However, we also have contracts to build on-shore supply chains for mrna and whatever the name is for novovax tec. Unfortunately, the only mRNA supplier willing to allow tech transfer was curevac and their product has failed - but the manufacturing capability is transferable potentially. Pfizer is pursuing a centralised regional hub based manufacturing strategy based on their existing vertical integrated supply chain - they were not interested in setting up a supply chain in the UK when they have their Belgian facilities and the whole point was to ensure domestic production capability. The only other thing the UK could realistically done was place a larger order with Pfizer, earlier. However it is unlikely Pfizer would have accepted it and, had the Pfizer vaccine turned out to be a dud, we would be stuffed right now. A balanced approach, spreading risk across a broad range of technologies and manufacturers whilst also looking to build domestic supply chains for three different tech types was absolutely the right approach. This is why we were the first major country to launch vaccinations, despite having no domestic vaccine manufacturing industry in 2019 - that (manufacturing, as opposed to R&D, licensing and corporate HQ) having consolidated in the EU common market to a hub in the benelux countries. I know you love your national dick waving competition, but in this I'm afraid you are simply wrong. The UK strategy was pretty much spot on, and left us with a good supply of viable vaccine to offer a greater protection to a larger proportion of our population faster than any other major country; while also building up a diverse manufacturing capability going forward. The only way you can do better is if you had a crystal ball and focus exclusively on a winning technology.
Seb Member	Sat Jul 24 16:34:47 Also, bluntly, it is highly unlikely we will lose more people to AZ given the AZ vaccine is highly effective at protecting people from the severe case of any of the variants. "That is inevitable in any treatment, ever." No, it's not relevant to any treatments (e.g. dexamethadone creates no selective pressure on the virus); it's specifically and far more relevant to a vaccine that does not prevent infection but alleviates symptoms: the virus can multiply within the body and thus competes for many generations (with mutant strains) competing against an immune system trained by the vaccine, and if a strain emerges that is not recognisable to those antibodies it will be able to spread easily to vaccinated individuals. And this onward transmission will be more likely if the infection is asymptomatic compared to someone in an intensive care ward with effective infection control. Vaccines, particularly the mRNA vaccines in particular, tend to result in a far narrower set of antibodies than an immune response to a natural infection. A vaccine that creates antibodies that kill the virus before it can establish itself within the body and form an infection of any real note has no such opportunity.
Rugian Member	Sat Jul 24 17:20:41 Seb still insisting that you can completely eradicate a worldwide disease through government edict. Jesus.
Seb Member	Sat Jul 24 17:22:51 Rugian: Smallpox.
Seb Member	Sat Jul 24 17:23:26 Polio - also nearly eradicated.
nhill Member	Sun Jul 25 01:49:38 An influencer marketing agency called Fazze offered to pay him to promote what it said was leaked information that suggested the death rate among people who had the Pfizer vaccine was almost three times that of the AstraZeneca jab. The information provided wasn't true. It quickly became apparent to Mirko that he was being asked to spread disinformation to undermine public confidence in vaccines in the middle of a pandemic. "I was shocked," says Mirko "then I was curious, what's behind all that?" In France, science YouTuber Léo Grasset received a similar offer. The agency offered him 2000 euros if he would take part. Fazze said it was acting for a client who wished to remain anonymous. http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-57928647 lmao AZ trying to pay off youtubers to make it look like it has a superior product. desperate.
Seb Member	Sun Jul 25 06:54:48 Nhill: Unlikely. AZ don't make profit (are not permitted to) under the license from Oxford, so have no motive to do so, plus would be very illegal. Almost certainly its just anti-vaxxer and conspiracy theorists that take a samstistics approach to life, bang numbers together until they see something that seems to them counterintuitive and convince themselves they have found something. Or possibly Russiana again - they enjoy fueling anything that drives cultural splits in the West.
Rugian Member	Sun Jul 25 10:40:30 Seb - You are aware that we don't have the ability to eliminate Covid in the same way that we eradicated smallpox and polio, right? Of course you are. After all, your strategy for dealing with Covid all along has been to force the ENTIRE WORLD to go on a months-long hard lockdown (a la sealing people up in their residences). Which is totally nuts: 1) You could never get the entire world on board with such an authoritarian and economy-destroying strategy. 2) If even one, ONE, person still had Covid by the time the lockdowns were over, they would be rendered entirely meaningless. Even if you were to somehow completely eliminate Covid in the UK by subjecting the entire population to two months of absolute lockdown, all it would take is one asymptomatic foreigner entering the country to put you right back where you started. Covid IS endemic, and no government in the world can change that. Time to start following "the science" and wake up to reality.
jergul large member	Sun Jul 25 12:19:06 Ruggy Mutation rates are a function of global viral load. Control matters.
TheChildren Member	Sun Jul 25 12:27:34 indeed da yankz is on 2 something here. it didnt have 2 be endemic but it is now thx 2 all da crazy white persons who refused lockdowns, masks and vaccines and bad hygiene. now we have 5000 variants and this shit is gonna go on and on and on and on.
Rugian Member	Sun Jul 25 12:33:36 Jergul Fine. You figure out a way to convince 200 national governments to seal up 8 billion people in their homes for two months. ...Now that you've had a chance to realize how impossible that is, can we start focusing on solutions that are grounded in reality?
Rugian Member	Sun Jul 25 12:41:47 TC Weren't you the one who was insisting that the virus originated in France or the US a good six months before it was noticed in China? There was never any chance that this thing could be hunted down and eliminated in its early stages. It's too easily transmitted, and too many of its carriers are asymptomatic.
Seb Member	Sun Jul 25 12:56:46 Rugian: Firstly, we would be in a position to do so if so many people such as yourself hasn't prioritised a few months of open economy. Secondly I do think we can greatly reduce the number of global infections, and in the long term eradication may also be possible. Defeatism on this issue has already demonstrably worsened the problem. Let's not make it worse still.
Seb Member	Sun Jul 25 13:05:07 Also we do not need to seal people up for two months in their houses. That's a ludicrous statement. The kind of lockdowns we've seen in many countries were highly effective in reducing r, combined with vaccines, if we persisted with existing measures to winter I think we would have substantially reduced case load to near zero. We have tailored boosters on the way, plus alternative routes under development that make it easier and safer to vaccinate children. At that point test/track/trace becomes viable as case loads are low enough. A further year of travel controls to get the developing world up to speed. Instead we are prioritising a few months of "economic opening" for years of dead weight costs.
TheChildren Member	Sun Jul 25 13:21:37 "Weren't you the one who was insisting that the virus originated in France or the US a good six months before it was noticed in China? " >> not me was insisting. But SCIENCE was insisting! it literally proven 2 be in many countries waaaay before wuhan decemba 2019!!
nhill Member	Sun Jul 25 14:35:04 Seb Doesn’t seem to be an anti-vaccine sentiment as much as a anti-Pfizer & pro-AZ one. Russia I could buy, but AZ definitely has motive, reputation-wise. I wouldn’t put it past a rogue employee / shareholder / stakeholder, if nothing else.
Seb Member	Sun Jul 25 15:19:40 nhill: Attacking a specific vaccine is still something anti-vaxxers will do. Many are not that rational but act in good faith based on their crap understanding - it did seem that, traced to source. there was something that if you squinted at it, could support a particular case being made against the Pfizer vaccine. This is what the Q-anon types do: stare at the sun, stare at the clouds, find patterns and become very convinced it is real and important. I can't really see the upside for Astrazenica - as they can't really make money on covid vaccine any time in the short term, what's the point? The real money for Astrazenica is the fact that the adenovirus technology it is built on was designed as a platform - malaria, the original target, is where the money is. They really don't need to be shit talking Pfizer.
Seb Member	Sun Jul 25 15:20:56 Also, it may be that Anti Vaxxers are targeting Pfizer because AZ is already discredited.
nhill Member	Sun Jul 25 15:25:35 Fair point.
jergul large member	Mon Jul 26 19:14:57 Newest estimate suggests 20% of Americans were infected by covid in the first year of the epidemic. The 5% may be a bit in the high range.
Hrothgar Member	Mon Jul 26 19:49:45 So how many of that 20% are also in the vaccinated group? Might be 5-10% more people with some level of resistance to the virus when you add in vaccinated plus recovered infections. Seems like most places I read seem to think around 70%+ of people need to be resistant to a disease for the infection waves to fade.
Sam Adams Member	Mon Jul 26 19:56:42 About 70% of the US population now has resistance to the original disease. Not enough for herd immunity to delta.
jergul large member	Tue Jul 27 01:00:47 Sammy Still not additive as hrothgar mentions. Hrothgar Herd immunity is achieved when resistance brings R0 to less than 1. So about 85% for delta.
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