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The current time is Fri Sep 24 01:18:47 2021

Utopia Talk / Politics / Afghanistan chaos is Trump’s fault
Paramount
Member
Tue Aug 24 12:23:58
GOP Rep. Adam Kinzinger rips into Trump and Mike Pompeo for 'getting rolled' by the Taliban

Rep. Adam Kinzinger slammed the Trump administration's deal with the Taliban, saying on Sunday that it set the stage for the current failure in Afghanistan.

The Illinois Republican said former President Donald Trump and his then-Secretary of State Mike Pompeo are at fault for America's "disastrous" withdrawal from the country.

"Donald Trump was publicly saying, 'We have to get out of Afghanistan at all costs. It's not worth it.' Mike Pompeo meets with the Taliban and tries to 'negotiate' something," Kinzinger said during an appearance on CNN.

"They ended up getting rolled almost as bad as Neville Chamberlain," he continued, referring to the British prime minister who negotiated the 1938 Munich Agreement, which was widely panned as enabling the Nazi invasion of Poland.

"They set this up to fail," Kinzinger said.

GOP Rep. Liz Cheney of Wyoming on Sunday also blasted Trump's deal, calling it a "surrender" to the Taliban.

"We sat down and negotiated with terrorists," Cheney told NBC News. "We gave credibility to the Taliban ... We completely undercut the Afghan national government. We absolutely emboldened the Taliban."

While president, Trump was eager to remove American troops from Afghanistan and end the US' longest-running war. But he took an unprecedented step to try and fulfill that aim: negotiate directly with the Taliban. His administration engaged in a series of talks with the militant group in Qatar, and even invited them to a secret meeting at the presidential retreat Camp David for the 9/11 anniversary in 2019. Trump later reversed this decision after a Taliban attack killed a US service member in Afghanistan.

Still, Trump reached a deal with the Taliban in February 2020, which stipulated that US troops would be withdrawn from Afghanistan within 14 months on the condition that the Taliban not turn the country into a terrorist base. The agreement had been widely criticized at the time for acceding to the Taliban and excluding the Afghan government. Pompeo attended the signing ceremony and took photos alongside Taliban leader Abdul Ghani Baradar, who is anticipated to head the next Taliban government in Afghanistan.

Trump has now attempted to absolve himself from the situation and pinned responsibility solely on President Joe Biden for the Taliban's takeover and the Afghan government's collapse.

http://www...ed-by-taliban-2021-8?r=US&IR=T
Dukhat
Member
Tue Aug 24 13:17:04
Yeah no shit. Trump forced a shitty peace and withdrew without getting any value in negotiations.

Similar to the withdrawal in Syria that abandoned our Kurd allies.

Just a fucking moron all around.
Rugian
Member
Tue Aug 24 13:35:23
"Kinzinger"

This guy would be more honest if he just came out as a Democrat already. Jesus Christ.

Biden didn't ascend to the office yesterday, he and his administration have been in power since the beginning of the year. If this disaster is entirely of Trump's making like he says, Biden had plenty of time to adjust the exit strategy.
Rugian
Member
Tue Aug 24 13:45:01
Liz Cheney is hateble on a lot of levels, but at least I can understand her being butthurt over losing the leadership position.

I legitimately don't know what's driving Kinzinger's obsession with Trump, other than maybe he just really enjoys the 20,000 Twitter likes he gets every time he slams the orange man.
Paramount
Member
Tue Aug 24 13:46:45
Maybe he will be known as the best surrender presid.
Im better then you
2012 UP Football Champ
Tue Aug 24 13:52:53
Trump released 5,000 Taliban prisoners

Trump had a formal surrender ceremony with Taliban leaders.


How exactly could Biden undo that? Considering that his main goal was withdrawing US troops.
Average Ameriacn
Member
Tue Aug 24 14:11:32
Trump dropped a MOAB on the Taliban and then they begged for negotiations which Trump clearly won. But when the old and weak Burden became President the Taliban broke the peace treaty and toppled our Afghan President.
Paramount
Member
Tue Aug 24 14:40:26
” Trump released 5,000 Taliban prisoners”

Yup.


From the official surrender agreement, Trump also agreed to remove the sanctions on the Taliban:



”removing these sanctions by August 27, 2020”


and he agreed to never threat or use force against Afghanistan ever again:

” The United States and its allies will refrain from the threat or the use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Afghanistan or intervening in its domestic affairs.”




I think Trump also agreed to that the USA will finance and help the new Islamic Taliban government:

”The United States will seek economic cooperation for reconstruction with the new post- settlement Afghan Islamic government as determined by the intra-Afghan dialogue and negotiations, and will not intervene in its internal affairs.”

http://www...ce-to-Afghanistan-02.29.20.pdf
Paramount
Member
Tue Aug 24 14:56:22
”Biden had plenty of time to adjust the exit strategy.”

How much of this is Biden actually involved in, though? Isn’t it the army generals who are making all the plans? And maybe it was Trump who appointed the guy who designed the withdrawal plan? And perhaps that plan was already approved and signed by Trump?
nhill
Member
Tue Aug 24 15:25:54
Fuck, I agree with Dukhat on this one.

But, nonetheless, Biden doesn't get a pass because Daddy Trump put him in between a rock and a hard place. Was Biden too dumb to escape Trump's booby trap? He gets no free passes from me.

The whole thing was a failure. It was a failure started by Trump, and executed by Biden.

Non of you repubtards and demofags have a leg to stand on this time and I love it. lol
kargen
Member
Tue Aug 24 15:45:52
The Taliban broke the deal as soon as they realized President Trump would not get a 2nd term

No way of knowing if they would have honored the deal had President Trump won a 2nd term.

President Biden's reactions are on President Biden and his team. They ended almost every other thing President Trump had in the fires so why did the supposedly keep this one?
Answer is they didn't. They fucked up and now are trying to pass the blame.
Seb
Member
Tue Aug 24 16:12:16
nhill:

From a military position, it looks to me like Biden was fucked. When he took over, with only 2500 US troops in Afghanistan and most of the contractors needed to maintain supply lines and kit; and noting that the US has normally a 10:1 ratio between combat and support troops - I suspect the main problem is that it was simply too late for Biden to reverse course.

Simply to be able to hold their own against a Taliban response would require increasing troop presence by a comparatively large number (politically unpopular) and to do that either rapidly and secretly to avoid military defeats in the interim.

What may have been surprising is the dramatic collapse of the Afghan forces, but again the more I read the less this should have been a surprise, not least as the Afghans forces were very reliant on civilian contractors for maintenance and support functions and they were withdrawn alongside American forces.

In addition, the peace deal Trump conducted was enforced upon the Afghans - so they have had six months of being shot at by the Taliban, but being ordered by the US as guarantors - and on whom they are militarily dependent via the civilian contractors and US air support - not to return fire. That's got to hurt morale.
Seb
Member
Tue Aug 24 16:12:44
Honestly, the trump deal is a massive turd. It's basically unilateral surrender.
nhill
Member
Tue Aug 24 16:43:26
I agree on that.
kargen
Member
Tue Aug 24 17:48:53
yeah it was never a good deal but the deal had already ceased to exist before President Biden took office. So everything since is on him. They all saw this coming and just kicked the can down the road making a bad situation much much worse.

President Trump did say "I really believe the Taliban wants to do something to show we're not all wasting time. If bad things happen, we'll go back with a force like no-one's ever seen."

So again we don't know how this would be different if the election had turned out different. All we know is what is happening now and what is happening now is happening because of Biden and his team. Trump was removed from the equation in November.
Average Ameriacn
Member
Tue Aug 24 18:43:34
If Trump would have been reelected then now it would be MOAB time!
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Tue Aug 24 21:03:53
Trump said mid-April we should be out by May 1st so he was still on board the whole time (not that he knows anything about anything)

possible he would’ve been convinced to stay to ‘keep the oil’ like with Syria
Seb
Member
Tue Aug 24 23:45:06
Kargen:

No it hadn't. When Biden took office, Trump had already overseen the withdrawal of all but 2500 troops (not all, and perhaps a minority of which, were combat troops), he'd already withdrawn the civilian military contractors, and he enforced the ceasefire on the Afghans.

*Despite* Taliban violations.

What you are saying is the Biden has grounds for ripping the deal up. But you are ignoring the fact that the troop withdrawals under Trump made any attempt by Biden to do that extraordinarily risky as Trump created the conditions that would allow the Taliban to retaliate to any breach, however justified, by inflicting military defeats on the American forces and taking diplomats and other civilians hostage.

Trump placed the US balls into the palm of the Talibans hand. Biden has to let them be get squeezed to avoid them being ripped off entirely; however much trump likes to pretend he had negotiated a free hand job.
Seb
Member
Wed Aug 25 00:08:58
Also handover was in January, not November.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Wed Aug 25 01:18:58
4 presidents did nothing but wrong on Afghanistan. The first invaded, the second one expanded it, the third one cut and run and fourth one said fuck it!
kargen
Member
Wed Aug 25 01:45:18
Hand over was in January. Taliban knew they wouldn't have to deal with Trump in November.

And Biden could have handled this so much better. He did the final withdrawal exactly backwards. It couldn't have been handled worse by Biden if he tried.
Dukhat
Member
Wed Aug 25 01:47:42
Generic Shit. Name something Biden did specifically that was any worse than what Trump would've done?

Not happy with the withdrawal but it's the same result as Trump still being president so whatever.
Average Ameriacn
Member
Wed Aug 25 04:18:47
Name one thing: Biden dropped no MOAB!
Paramount
Member
Wed Aug 25 04:49:34
Kargen,

"The Taliban broke the deal as soon as they realized President Trump would not get a 2nd term"


...and when was that? It was very uncertain for a long time if Trump won or not. In fact, Trump did win and everyone thought that he was going to come back and continue to be the president. People are still saying that he will be president soon again.

So how can you say that the Taliban knew that Trump would not continue as president?
Seb
Member
Wed Aug 25 05:22:32
Kargen:

"Taliban knew they wouldn't have to deal with Trump in November."

The Taliban broke the deal between November and January, so why did Trump:
1. Order the DoD and US armed forces to continue to prevent the Arghan Army returning fire.

2. Continue to implement the deal and draw down troops to an unsustainably low level such that by handover, any deviation from the deal would have left the US unable to protect American civillians and diplomats from the Taliban?

kargen
Member
Wed Aug 25 12:23:00
Because he said he would draw down the troops. I'm not saying what President Trump was doing was a good solution. I am saying President Biden made it much much worse. It was never going to have a good outcome.
Forwyn
Member
Wed Aug 25 12:50:26
"Similar to the withdrawal in Syria that abandoned our Kurd allies."

Nah, this was the only proper route. Our involvement in Syria was utterly illegal and unjustified, unlike the initial Afghan invasion.

Bitching about the Kurds is pointless, because no American president is going to stand up to Turkey anyway.
Seb
Member
Wed Aug 25 13:04:27
Kargen:

You said the deal already ceased before Biden entered office.

When the Taliban reneged on the deal, Trump had an opportunity to evacuate civilians and afghans at particular risk, support the Afghans going back on the offensive rather than preventing them firing back, ensure the right level of civilian contractor support was available to the Afghan army, or slow the rate of draw down such that when Biden took over there was enough troops there to protect the numerous US and NATO civillians at risk.

He did none of those, so that when Biden was in place he had absolutely no military options that did not put tens of thousands of western diplomats and civilians, plus the remaining US forces, at unacceptable risk.

Trump basically gave the Taliban 10,000 hostages.

By comparison, Truman extended the Korean war 2 years to ensure Korean prisoners would be released and refugees leave the north.

This is 90% on Trump. 10% on Biden who could have done a bit better, but it was always going to be a rout because Trump gutted the Afghan military capability, and then didn't leave enough troops in place to handle a withdrawal under fire, so why the hell wouldn't the Taliban humiliate you maximally on the way out?

The lesson is don't be an ally of the US.
murder
Member
Wed Aug 25 13:27:02

"Afghanistan chaos is Trump’s fault"

The fault belongs with the people of Afghanistan who chose to live under Taliban rule rather than fight.

If we have any fault in the outcome it's due to promising so many people a ride out of Afghanistan if things went south.

1. Risk your life fighting the Taliban for god knows how long so you can stay in that shithole the rest of your life.

Or

2. Let the place go to hell and get relocated to a much nicer country where you might actually have a future.

Tough decision, right?
murder
Member
Wed Aug 25 13:31:08

"so why the hell wouldn't the Taliban humiliate you maximally on the way out?"

The answer to that should be obvious. It would take us all of 30 days to turn around and run the Taliban back out of power and into mass graves.

Rugian
Member
Wed Aug 25 13:58:02
Interesting how you all are blaming the people that got us out of Afghanistan. As opposed to, you know, the people that got us INTO Afghanistan in the first place.

Blame neocons and Democrats for mission creeping us into a 20 year occupation, not the people who finally cleaned up those guys' mess.
murder
Member
Wed Aug 25 14:16:46

The military is for breaking shit and killing people. Once they are deviated from that mission, everything goes to hell.

Seb
Member
Wed Aug 25 16:02:53
Murder:

Bullshit. The Afghan army have fought and sustained tens of thousands of casualties. You armed and trained them to fight with high tech kit that they do not have the parts or skills to fix, and then pulled out the companies and civilian technicians that did so.

You specifically instructed them not to fight while they were being killed for the last six months, and bought political, financial and military pressure to bare to enforce that.

It is no bloody wonder many have surrendered.


It is bad enough that two successive American leaders have bought into appeasement; pretending it is all the Afghan armies fault doesn't let you get away from that fact.

.

Seb
Member
Wed Aug 25 16:04:36
Murder:


"It would take us all of 30 days to turn around and run the Taliban back out of power and into mass graves."

Well, they've humiliated you, and t aren't, so I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that you have misjudged the mood of your country. The majority are with Trump on this: appease the Taliban, sell out the Afghans, and hope they don't hold another bin Laden. After all, you've done the worst you can credibly do, and they won in the end.
Seb
Member
Wed Aug 25 16:18:01
Rugian:

Before Trump's deal, Afghanistan was a far better place to live in tab under the Taliban. The Taliban were isolated, US and NATO casualties were low. In fact US casualty rates were lower than at domestic based units due to the lack of access to alcohol.

And the primary military security objective of denying a terrorist base, bases in extremely strategically useful places (between China, Russia and Iran) were all met.

I don't think going into Afghanistan was a bad idea, and whatever you think about the occupation, the bulk of that is sunk costs.

So yes, I blame Trump for pissing all the gains away, to address no discernable love issue, at the cost of the credibility of the West and the US as a security partner.

The lesson everyone will take is cut a deal with Russia and China now.
kargen
Member
Wed Aug 25 16:24:21
"You said the deal already ceased before Biden entered office."

yeah I did. I did not say President Trump handled this the right way. He fucked things up just like the presidents before him fucked things up.

What I am saying is as bad as it was President Biden made in so much worse. It wasn't going to ever end well but the actions of the Biden administration made sure it would end as absolutely horrifyingly bad as possible.

For many of the American citizens a lot of this is on them as well. They knew withdrawal was only months away no matter which plan was going to be used. Their asses should have been on planes long ago. The private contractors should have been doing a draw down long ago but hung on to the very last minute squeezing every dollar they could out of the situation.
Then again they probably didn't expect the president to pull all the troops out on the sly and say make it to the airport if you can.
murder
Member
Wed Aug 25 17:02:43

"Bullshit. The Afghan army have fought and sustained tens of thousands of casualties. You armed and trained them to fight with high tech kit that they do not have the parts or skills to fix, and then pulled out the companies and civilian technicians that did so."

This is a pile of steaming poo. The Afghan army was doomed to fail from day #1 because a chain of command could not be established and sustained. Soldiers would not follow orders from officers of different ethnicities or tribes. They were just as likely to shoot each other than the Taliban, and more likely to simply desert than fight for a government that was not theirs.


"After all, you've done the worst you can credibly do, and they won in the end."

Not even close. Not even close to close. Put me in charge for 6 months and we'll see how things look after I napalm every Taliban friendly village to ashes, torch all their crops, and cut off all their supply lines, just in time for winter.

The problem is that we don't wage war. We spend $800 billion a year so that we can run every option by the lawyers to make sure that Europeans won't think less of us for doing what needs done.

And then I'd nuke Pakistan just to let them know that we know.

murder
Member
Wed Aug 25 17:06:13

"For many of the American citizens a lot of this is on them as well. They knew withdrawal was only months away no matter which plan was going to be used. Their asses should have been on planes long ago. The private contractors should have been doing a draw down long ago but hung on to the very last minute squeezing every dollar they could out of the situation."

Yep. I'm shocked at the number of Americans that were still there this close to Biden's final pullout date.
Seb
Member
Thu Aug 26 10:27:55
Murder:

"Not even close. Not even close to close."

They just blew up 10 Americans. You will still leave.

"Put me in charge for 6 months and we'll see how things look after I napalm every Taliban friendly village to ashes, torch all their crops, and cut off all their supply lines, just in time for winter."

You aren't in charge, and let's see the US to that when there are Chinese and Russians crawling all over Afghanistan.

How do you determine who is friendly or not without boots on the ground?

And even if you do that, they wouldn't stop Isis or Al-quaeda operating as they wouldn't be able to, because they wind up dead anyway.

Bottom line, you won't do shit.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Aug 26 11:40:12
VBIED, many dead and wounded at Kabul airport.
Seb
Member
Thu Aug 26 12:13:36
"And then I'd nuke Pakistan just to let them know that we know"

And then they'd nuke you back, to make sure India knew.
Sam Adams
Member
Thu Aug 26 12:40:42
We can stop a pakistani attack.

Or at least we could before missile defense had to spend all their time on diversity training.
Hrothgar
Member
Thu Aug 26 12:48:22
Back to the initial claim, this was all Trump's fault:

While the inept and foolish Trump admin certainly started NATO down this path, it's ridiculous to claim what's happened in the last 2 months is all on Trump's head.

Biden fucked this up badly with how he guided what was under his control since he took office. And I contend it will cost him the next election unless his opponent is Trump.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Aug 26 13:47:17
Hrothgar what would have been an acceptable outcome for you?
Dukhat
Member
Thu Aug 26 13:52:23
Only time when people vote against a president for a war is if the war is ongoing and Americans are dying. LBJ, Dubya, etc. Nobody ever punished a president for withdrawing, ever. Nixon did it, Reagan did it, and now Biden is doing it. So Hrothgar thinking people will vote on Afghanistan in over 3 years time is kind of cute.

I don't approve at all Biden's continuation of Trump's policies but I understand it. Trump had already withdrawn a shit ton of troops and made it impossible to do any kind of small offensive or provide real support to the ANA. The die was mostly cast.

Could he have done better in the withdrawal. Meh. Maybe. Who would've thought that every fucking city would simply just give up.
Sam Adams
Member
Thu Aug 26 15:12:13
12 US soldiers dead. 1200 ISIS prisoners should be executed.

But the west has no balls. Way too many sebs.
murder
Member
Thu Aug 26 15:14:49

"You aren't in charge, and let's see the US to that when there are Chinese and Russians crawling all over Afghanistan."

I'm not. Instead we have fucking stupid hippies in charge. Stupid hippies that get talked into engaging in non-military missions by people like you ... only to get handcuffed by those same people with their retarded Marquess of Queensberry Rules for conducting war in a gentle polite fashion.

If there are any standing structures left, then we haven't come close to doing all we can.



"How do you determine who is friendly or not without boots on the ground?"

Anything South of Kabul, and anything East of Kabul ... for starters.

murder
Member
Thu Aug 26 15:15:58

"And then they'd nuke you back, to make sure India knew."

With their magic rockets?

murder
Member
Thu Aug 26 15:19:24

"12 US soldiers dead. 1200 ISIS prisoners should be executed."

I am forever confused that this nation spends $800 billion a year on our armed forces, just to slap fight with some barbarians riding around on the back of Toyota pickups.

This shit stops the day we start killing wholesale. Genocide shouldn't just be on the table, it should be plan A, B, and C.


Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Aug 26 15:26:08
Gen McKenzie said:

US authorities believe the Islamic State group (IS-K) was behind the attacks and the threat of further incidents is "very real"

These might take the form of vehicle-borne suicide bombings or rocket attacks

The US military is co-ordinating and sharing information with the Taliban to prevent a repeat

US forces believe the Taliban have already prevented some attacks from taking place
Sam Adams
Member
Thu Aug 26 15:36:46
"I am forever confused that this nation spends $800 billion a year on our armed forces, just to slap fight"

Yup. Its like buying a condom to whack off. I bet democrats do that.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Aug 27 04:01:46
Over 100 dead. 90 Civilians and 12 soldiers.
murder
Member
Fri Aug 27 06:51:24

If we had just gotten our own out and left the Afghans behind, we would have been finished with the evacuation in a matter of days and this would have been avoided.

murder
Member
Fri Aug 27 07:03:14

US Marines getting killed while evacuating to the US tens of thousands of Afghans who were too chickenshit to fight for their own country feels like a loss.

There's a time for sacrifice, and there's a time to cut bait.


murder
Member
Fri Aug 27 07:04:00

The irony is that it's likely that some Marines who wouldn't get vaxxed to save the lives of their fellow Americans just got blown up trying to save some brownish Muslims that they probably don't even want in the US.

tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Aug 27 12:12:44
the new GQP / Trump talking point is claiming they would've left Afghanistan but kept Bagram Air Base (so, not left Afghanistan)

McCarthy saying it:
http://twitter.com/ryanobles/status/1431283777809100813

& noting our no losses over past 18 months, not noting that's because of the surrender deal made 18 months ago
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Aug 27 12:12:52
& the fucking moron fraud saying it (though sounds like repeating something he heard on TV):
http://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1431070739826888710

plus various other members of fraudosphere tweeting it

there's absolutely no way this was the plan
murder
Member
Fri Aug 27 14:50:10

I'm not really sure what the point of getting upset at any bull Trump or the GOP says about how they would have handled things better. They don't even hide the fact that they are full of shit. Iran literally dropped a bunch of ballistic missiles on US forces while Trump was President, and he did squat about it.

In fact the complete lack of response makes it look like he agreed to allow it to happen to settle Iran down for the killing of Soleimani.


tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Aug 27 15:15:03
"They don't even hide the fact that they are full of shit"

yet a significant portion of the voting public can't detect it for some reason
tumbleweed
the wanderer
Fri Aug 27 15:24:21
Fox put on Killer McGee again w/ another simple plan to fix everything:

http://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1431350234056216580

just start killing the Taliban... that'll help reduce violence & get us out...


his earlier advice was dropping 10 guys into the city to shoot everyone in sight & then easily rescue the unknown # of Americans in unknown locations in a city of 4 million (in my shit about shit thread @ Fri Aug 20 18:58:11)
Hrothgar
Member
Fri Aug 27 16:52:10
Biden's folly isn't in the following through with Trump's agreement to leave Afghanistan. Leaving is/was the right call when the people one is "defending" won't fight for their own freedoms.

Biden's folly is in the execution. Just one small example is that leadership at a bunch of levels under command of Biden should have been smart enough to foresee a need to better secure that airport, and possibly have more than one secure airport.

They had months to prepare security measures. That didn't happen, and the leadership failure stops with Biden.
murder
Member
Fri Aug 27 16:59:33

"Biden's folly is in the execution."

His folly was listening to the people insisting that we evacuate the whole country instead of just the people the US sent there.

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