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Utopia Talk / Politics / facts are confusing
Sam Adams
Member
Wed Sep 01 21:36:33
http://www...in-the-military-justice-system

Blacks are overrepresented in every criminal justice system everywhere. Dems still wonder why.

"Buzzword buzzword buzzword it must be racism"
Nekran
Member
Thu Sep 02 03:48:24
Sammy can't think of any historic reasons why blacks would be overrepresented in the lower socioeconomic groups of society and the crime stats.

Sammy likes to believe tiny genetic differences within populations of our species, which has a very low genetic diversity to begin with, is a more plausible explanation for this disparity.

Sammy is indeed a moron.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 02 04:26:09
What about the overrepresentation of blacks in sports, is that also due to the low genetic diversity, or is it because of historic reasons?

Asking for a friend :)
Nekran
Member
Thu Sep 02 05:33:52
That really depends on the sport. There are plenty of sports where other races are overrepresented as well.

Reasons vary, though definitely a good deal of them are genetic in nature (but for plenty of sports the reasons are also cultural). We can point to most of those differences as well. "These genes, which are more prominent in this population, make for a difference in these muscles, which are good for this sport for this or that reason."

I highly doubt we will be able to do the same for explaining crime stats in the near future, considering that socio economic status is such a good match already.

These days of more and more genetic "decoding" happening are super exciting though. The mind reels at the knowledge and possibilities humanity will have in this respect in 10-20 years.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 02 06:15:18
"I highly doubt we will be able to do the same for explaining crime stats in the near future, considering that socio economic status is such a good match already."

What you say here is also congruent with, people with low IQ are often poorer that those with higher IQ. The evidence for the genetic factors of crime, specifically violent crime has already been presented. Nekran, this isn't even a secret, even the Swedish prison system put out a report providing "heritability" as one of the factors, thought they did not weight these factors. It is a known fact they write, that people who are sentenced to prison, very often have one or two parents with a criminal history.

This is actually bigger than the race issue, even though the racial component is rides in the front seat. These studies that I have read are from Sweden, on ethnic blue eyed and blond Swedes, mostly. Something like 3% of the population committed 63% of all the violent crimes! There are twin, sibling and family data, all of them pointing to the same thing.

From Finland
http://aca...oi/10.1093/ije/dyab099/6288123

No causal associations between childhood family income and subsequent psychiatric disorders, substance misuse and violent crime arrests: a nationwide Finnish study of >650 000 individuals and their siblings
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 02 06:32:52
And I picked Finland, because Finland has virtually no black people and has had very little immigration. They are for the purposes pure white :)

Once we establish this, then it doesn't require a leap of faith that genetic variance across the globe could have result in different levels of violence. There are pretty coherent and sober evolutionary explanations for how and why an environment would have rewarded individuals with a higher propensity for violence.

Here is another shocking fact, based on Swedish data:

"Convicted criminal offenders had more children than individuals never convicted of a criminal offense. Criminal offenders also had more reproductive partners, were less often married, more likely to get remarried if ever married, and had more often contracted a sexually transmitted disease than non-offenders."

http://www...icle/abs/pii/S1090513814000774

Summarized in a way the teen age you and me understood full and well, bad boys get laid!
murder
Member
Thu Sep 02 06:43:53

"What about the overrepresentation of blacks in sports, is that also due to the low genetic diversity, or is it because of historic reasons?"

Slaves were bred like work animals so ...

Nekran
Member
Thu Sep 02 06:53:51
These facts are not at all shocking. I don't doubt there is a genetic factor to propensity to violence. In fact we know this is the case throughout nature and humanity can be no exception.

What I highly doubt is that the genetic factors for a variety of negative traits (including propensity to violence) will be so clear cut along skin color as in the Sammies of the worlds' wet dreams.

I expect the propensity to violence to be wildly variant among all populations (considering any population should logically naturally evolve towards a balance of this trait relative to its environment).

And I expect socioeconomic factors to vastly outweigh the genetic ones, when it comes to crime stats.

I myself, for example, was a very aggressive child and I can still get these insane outbursts when I get proper mad, which is rare, luckily. But I have a good life and have enjoyed a good upbringing and a very nice environment throughout my life. As a consequence, I have not once in my adult life hurt anyone other than myself in any of these outbursts.

We are not slaves to our genes. The same genes will express differently in different individuals and in different circumstances.

Getting everyone the best possible circumstances is the best way forward, it seems to me.

The real interesting discussion though, which we should already be having in societies, is what we will do with all the newfound knowledge of genetics that is coming our way. How far do we want to go in changing ourselves and selecting for traits?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 02 07:15:57
"Slaves were bred"

There is probably truth to that, but it also validates the heritability of traits. But you know socioeconomy does matter if you are so poor that you can't eat and develop properly. It could also be that the black people in the USA, were/are better fed and living in an environment free from vectors and parasite, compared to their contemporary African cousins.

However, nobody bred east Africans to dominate long distance running. They live in a hot and humid area of the world (since the dawn of mankind) and at high altitudes. They were naturally selected over generations for endurance related traits, such as heat dissipation and VO2 max.
murder
Member
Thu Sep 02 07:19:18

"These facts are not at all shocking. I don't doubt there is a genetic factor to propensity to violence. In fact we know this is the case throughout nature and humanity can be no exception."

Because white people don't have a history of violence?


"And I expect socioeconomic factors to vastly outweigh the genetic ones, when it comes to crime stats."

So does bias and outright racism in policing and prosecution.


Just days ago a reporter was accosted if not outright assaulted on live TV by an angry white guy with a history of violence who was out on parole for what can only be described as an act of terrorism.

Nekran
Member
Thu Sep 02 07:24:10
"So does bias and outright racism in policing and prosecution."

No doubt, yes.

"Because white people don't have a history of violence?"

A whole lot of it, yes. As I was saying, I expect the genetic propensity to violence to be wildly variant among the entire human population and within local populations. That makes far more sense than for it to be randomly linked to skin color.
Habebe
Member
Thu Sep 02 07:26:36
"Because white people don't have a history of violence?"

Different races/cultures have different manners in which they tend to express their violence.

Look at ritualistic murders, like what we think of as a serial killer, or lone gunman, definitley white ppl crimes.

Muggings and group gunfights? Probably not a white guy.
Seb
Member
Thu Sep 02 07:38:15
Nekran:

+1

Habebe:

Also likely to be socio-economic.

Much easier to find outlet for compulsive violent tendencies in other criminal activity and the criminal justice system when you have low education and are in poverty.

The ritualistic / serial killer type behaviour seems to me to be a function of someone who has no outlet for their violent compulsions, and has to find elaborate ways to indulge their compulsion while maintaining a separation with the rest of their life.
Seb
Member
Thu Sep 02 07:41:47
Nim:

The fact that something has a genetic factors doesn't mean it correlates with race.

We cover this point every time. After two decades or so, it would be nice to finally move on from this.
Seb
Member
Thu Sep 02 07:46:04
In addition, top athletes are highly exceptional and their performance is far more likely to reflect a few very specific traits that rely on a few or one uncommon genetic trait and therefore may well correlate with particular racial groups.

This is different from looking at the mode and standard deviation of any particular characteristic.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 02 07:54:22
"will be so clear cut along skin color as in the Sammies of the worlds' wet dreams."

I agree it isn't clear cut along skin color, but I also think at least our sam knows he is using a crude heuristic, that he thinks is "good enough". He just doesn't care. You can't win over people who simply don't care.

"And I expect socioeconomic factors to vastly outweigh the genetic ones, when it comes to crime stats."

It doesn't, did you read the finish study? here is another from Sweden:

"Conclusions: There are no associations between childhood family income and subsequent violent criminality and substance misuse once unobserved familial risk factors are adjusted for."

Another reason why the Scandinavian data is valuable is because there is a lot of policy in place here to mitigate the consequences of poverty. This is some ways the "best" we can do, by directly throwing money at where the problem arises.

http://www...imental_total_population_study

"We are not slaves to our genes."

You can easily imagine how someone with dwarfism or very low IQ is given some huge challenges to overcome, practically impossible for them to do certain things. There are tons of trains like that and the slavery exists on a gradient. We are more or less slaves to our genes, it depends on the trait.

I want to mention, I am not arguing that genes are the only factor, I just object to how you rank it in importance. Genes are very important, there is not a single outcome or complex trait, that doesn't have a considerable genetic component. It is the largest systematic factor for why people become who they are. Environment and just sheer luck pays a huge role, we could perhaps say, you were lucky that your aggressive nature when younger didn't accidentally kill or hurt someone, putting you on a completely different trajectory in life. Never underestimate luck in determining individual outcomes.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 02 07:56:28
Seb
I am just going to ignore you, since right off the bat, you said some stupid stuff that doesn't map with anything I have said. Now fuck off.
Nekran
Member
Thu Sep 02 08:23:25
"It doesn't, did you read the finish study?"

I haven't, but I intend to check it out tonight. Sounds intersting. Working atm though.

"There are tons of trains like that and the slavery exists on a gradient. We are more or less slaves to our genes, it depends on the trait."

Agreed. Us not being slaves to our genes, is too crude of a statement. They definitely set boundries for what we can or can't do in life. But it's not because part of us wants to fuck all goodlooking women, that we have to rape and be unfaithful. And that because we have a propernsity to violence, we therefor will act violently in life. But for sure, they have a huge impact on our lives. I definitely do not want to understate the importance of genetics. But also not those of circumstance and indeed blind luck.

"we could perhaps say, you were lucky that your aggressive nature when younger didn't accidentally kill or hurt someone, putting you on a completely different trajectory in life. Never underestimate luck in determining individual outcomes."

Very much so. And in my unhappy broody teenage years, I think in a society where guns are easily obtained, I could've been a school shooter. Which is a very scary thought. I mean... I like to think I was never devoid of empathy enough to have been one... but it was a fantasy of mine in late high school. Me and my best friend at the time mocked the Columbine shooters for their low body count. Just the wrong circumstances could possibly have led me there for real... an insane thought. Especially because I was never even bullied or any shit like that... just a horrible sense of superiority and an unhappiness at what the world was like, for which I blamed the "hordes of idiots" back in the day.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 02 08:37:50
Nekran
"How far do we want to go in changing ourselves and selecting for traits?"

People are making those decisions if your look at partner preference and IQ/academic achievement, and it is universal, African or Asian or European.

If Scandinavia (broadly northern Europe) in many ways are the best examples of dealing with this, then there is this problem that doesn't go away with social outreach, skate parks and what not. It will require more insight into our genetic blue print and ultimately the ability to change that which is written in it.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 02 08:47:51
Nekran
"But it's not because part of us wants to fuck all goodlooking women, that we have to rape and be unfaithful."

What if we rephrase that to having a lower ability for empathy and a high sex drive. Traits that are studied to have large genetic components.
Nekran
Member
Thu Sep 02 08:51:43
I meant more in our rapidly evolving ability to adapt our genetic make up.

Choosing eye color and sex and all that jazz in newborn baies are the first baby steps people can already do now. And eliminating horrible genetic diseases are things we all tend to agree on.

But there are a lot of far more grey areas. Like some people liken the aborting of down syndrome babies to a sort of genocide of a perfectly happy and mostly docile people. A sound argument can be made. If I was someone who wanted to have children though, I would also want to eliminate the chance to have a child with down syndrome if I could.

If (or well when, more likely) we find out in which genes reside homosexuality... would you want to select against it? What about ADHD or autism or myopism or all sorts of minor defects people can perfectly live with?

Do we want to create a super intelligent, beautiful, superathletic, but unaggressive (?) weirdly homogenous species? Feels so wrong and bland and yet also what is inevitably going to happen when people start getting to make choices for the genetic makeup of their future children.

And we're not even talking about improving on all of our genetic traits there.

There is a line in Gattaca where a doctor says to a couple in doubt "Don't forget, your child will still be the product of you. It will simply be the best of you". This line always stuck with me, as a line that will be used and that will convince people to get selective with their genes.

My mind spends a lot of time considering this future and its possible consequences.
Seb
Member
Thu Sep 02 09:04:02
Nim:

You spent a whole paragraph directly responding to Nekran's point that things like propensity to crime involve such complex interplays of genetic factors that they are unlikely to correlate with race; with a statement about correlations of genes with crime.

BTW, depending on exactly how the term is used, heritability doesn't necessarily imply a genetic factor. If it is being used in the specific technical sense in genetics it ought to produce an indicator of how much variation can be assigned to genes. But many fields of social and behavioural studies use it much more generally.
e.g. It is not surprising to find that the children of criminals are more likely to be criminals if they have been bought up by criminals. Nor, given the impact of the care system and developmental issues that may correlate with the mothers socio economic conditions during pregnancy and early years - is it necessarily that surprising that adopted children of criminals are more likely to end up as criminals than the general population.

But even if we take on face value that the children of criminals are more likely to be criminals indicates a genetic factor in criminality, that still doesn't tell you anything about whether the relative difference in criminality in populations defined by skin colour or self-declare race is due to relative frequency of criminally associated genes between those populations.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 02 09:14:56
Nekran

I share all your concerns of how this kind of information can be used to justify lazy racist heuristics or any of the ethical concerns your raised. As with a lot of science, this can be used for good or for heinous things and even create existential risks for us as a specie. I don't have any good answers, though I appreciate it is a broader and open question. I think it will be difficult, just consider it, knowing that intelligence and height are two of the most important traits for success, wouldn't you choose that for your children? And that is part of the difficulty, these decisions when they are presented to us are valued on an individual level and not with concern with how that will effect the system at large. Huge problems down the road, who will have access to this technology when/if it comes, it will be the people who need it the least.
Cloud Strife
Member
Thu Sep 02 09:25:48
The whole eugenics argument for racism is lazy. So what, if one race has a statistically significant weakness or strength over another? What are you going to do about it? Pat yourself on the back for being born well? Cry because of your genes?

The egalitarian argument is to shrug and move forward with solutions that benefit society.

The fascist argument is to successively annihilate inferior groups, one group at a time, until there is nothing left of humanity.

The modern racist argument is to bitch, moan, act like a tough guy, and fellate a carrot cock.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 02 09:39:22
CS
You raise a good point that I edited out from my previous post. For me personally knowing these things makes me feel better about my own shortcomings, like the fact that I don't have a brain like Von Neumann or the athleticism of Jon Jones, it was never in my hands in the first place. There is nothing I or anyone can do about the roll of the die.

Knowing these things makes me less prone to place personal blame (your success is tied to being lazy, pick yourself up by the bootstrap kind of arguments) on a wide range of behaviors and outcomes, not excuse them, but on a principle level I view them differently.
Sam Adams
Member
Thu Sep 02 13:42:27
"I expect the propensity to violence to be wildly variant among all populations"

Of course you do. You cant possibly think through an un-pc theory. It is utterly unacceptable to you to consider for even a second that a genetic component might exist.
OsamaIsDaWorstPresid
Member
Thu Sep 02 16:16:18
itz defintlie gona b 1 of da jeans linked 2 inteligense
Nekran
Member
Fri Sep 03 01:53:26
"It is utterly unacceptable to you to consider for even a second that a genetic component might exist."

Sammy can't even read anymore. It's amazing to see how his abilities have actually degraded in the past 20 years.

A genetic component defintely exists, you tard. This is not even a question. Your parents are very most likely also morons.
Pillz
Member
Fri Sep 03 07:20:07
After 20 years Seb still can't accept crime statistics. Amazing
Sam Adams
Member
Fri Sep 03 09:42:12
"genetic component defintely exists"

I'm going to save this.
Seb
Member
Fri Sep 03 09:50:18
Sam:

It's the same thing that everyones been telling you for ages.

You treat anything having a genetic basis as equivalent to saying that it correlates with race.

For 20 years people have explained why this is incorrect.

For 20 years you have been arguing that failure to agree that something having a genetic basis means that racial differences must exist in the characteristic means that the person rejects the trait has basis. For 20 years people have explained why that is not correct either.

None of this should be surprising unless you are genuinely very stupid.
Seb
Member
Fri Sep 03 09:50:28
Do you not get bored?
Sam Adams
Member
Fri Sep 03 11:58:54
"You treat anything having a genetic basis as equivalent to saying that it correlates with race."

Intelligence test scores, societal success, crime rates, etc, all correlate well with race. Sure, it is *possible* that they are the result of factors entirely non-genetic. That is unlikely. The correlations are too strong and too omnipresent, suggesting a genetic component is probable.

You must admit, if you are in any way reasonable, that a genetic component to racial differences is possible.

You are allowing your single-minded political BS to clowd your judgement.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Sep 03 14:57:06
This "race" stuff is the least interesting thing about the heritability of violence. It really doesn't matter.

Here I would like to take help from a Persian poet, Saadi:

"Human beings are members of a whole,
In creation of one essence and soul.
If one member is afflicted with pain,
Other members uneasy will remain.
If you have no sympathy for human pain,
The name of human you cannot retain."

If you don't agree, you can fuck off.
Sam Adams
Member
Fri Sep 03 15:29:02
"Human beings are members of a whole,
In creation of one essence and soul."

Sounds like communist nonsense to me!
Seb
Member
Fri Sep 03 17:57:46
Sam:

You are so close, so nearly there.

Various factors like IQ score and crime correlate with race.
Various genetic factors correlate with IQ score and crime.
But those genetic factors *don't* correlate with race.

What could that mean... what could it possibly mean...
Seb
Member
Fri Sep 03 17:58:28
Three facts. So confusing to Sam. Let's see if he can make that last conceptual leap.
kargen
Member
Fri Sep 03 18:37:01
So having both the race and the genetic factors that correlate would be a big ole nasty double whammy.
Sam Adams
Member
Fri Sep 03 18:44:40
"But those genetic factors *don't* correlate with race."

You just made that up.

The opposite is indeed likely true. Many studies over the past 150 years or so have found that african brain mass and brain volume is significantly lower. While brain mass is not purely genetic, that such correlation is so strong and has persisted so long means this is very likely genetic rather than infant malnourisment, pollutants(that didnt exist when the first studies were made), etc.

http://dar...ology%20362%20-%20Week%20X.pdf
Sam Adams
Member
Fri Sep 03 18:57:20
If seb and nekran believed there was actually no correlation between race and intelligence, they and other leftoids wouldnt be fighting so hard to stop it from being researched.

That the left fights so hard against even doing the research means that deep down, they know what the results are likely to be.

"The father of DNA says he still believes in a link between race, intelligence. His lab just stripped him of his titles."

http://www...him-his-titles/?outputType=amp
Habebe
Member
Fri Sep 03 20:38:04
Yes , yes, the party of science....unless it goes against their very strange religion of wokism.
jergul
large member
Fri Sep 03 21:39:00
Violence and criminal activity are not the norm for anyone, no matter the genetic background.

An black man will what, stab and kill a person on average 0,0001 times during his lifetime?

Say a black man stabs and kills a person twice as often as a white man. that would be 0,0001 to 0,00005 times on average? So what?

The exceptions would be people inbroiled in cultural and economic systems like say drug cartels in Mexico.

Or arguably for people suffering from certain medical conditions like pscychopathy.

If you actually wanted a predictive genetic marker, then it would be chromosone based. Men are far more likely to pull crap than women.
Sam Adams
Member
Fri Sep 03 23:03:45
"An black man will what, stab and kill a person on average 0,0001 times during his lifetime?"

2 orders of magnitude off jergul.

Well, there are about 10k-20,000 african shooters and stabbers in a given year in the US, an average lifespan of about 65 years and a total african population of 40 million... thus about 2-3% of africans are going to commit attempted murder at some point in their lives.

1/3 of all african males will commit a serious crime in their lifetime.

The magnitude of african crime is amazing. Why do you think racism exists?
Sam Adams
Member
Fri Sep 03 23:15:07
"Say a black man stabs and kills a person twice"

Its 10-15 times. Not 2.
Sam Adams
Member
Fri Sep 03 23:17:32
"Men are far more likely to pull crap than women."

Well depends on what "crap", but yes, in this context, men are much more likely to commit major crime.
Sam Adams
Member
Fri Sep 03 23:42:04
"An black man will what, stab and kill a person on average 0,0001 times during his lifetime?"

2 orders of magnitude off jergul."

Apologies i read this wrong. I thought stab or kill. Its stab AND kill. In this case there are about 800 africans that do this per year. You were only 1 order of magnitude off, not 2 :)
jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 03:26:01
Sammy
You sure there are 800 stabbing deaths performed by African Americans per year? Not that its important, I just bashed down zeroes to illustrate a point.

Control for gangland and poverty social and economic factors.

Then see that the magnitude of "african crime" is completely underwelming.

We humans, not matter pigment count, are actually quite good at not doing major crimes for the overwhelming amount of time.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Sep 04 04:56:00
Jergul
"If you actually wanted a predictive genetic marker, then it would be chromosone based."

Sure and you could say this about many traits, like height, height can be "predicted based on chromosome" because men on average are much taller than women. Yet further inquiry shows that men specifically from the Netherlands are on average the tallest in the world.

"Control for gangland and poverty social and economic factors."

Genes shape and influence the environment, it isn't a one way street. Once you factor tin familial factors, there is no association between these things and violent crime.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Sep 04 05:12:00
Jergul
It’s not that anyone denies what you are saying is true, we have known that since long before we discovered genetics and evolution. The idea that we need not look further than that as far as the genetics goes,I have a word for it ,Amish empiricism. It is the idea that some arbitrary level of knowledge is all we gonna need.
jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 05:48:38
I also have a term for making a huge issue of what is a non issue (humans are inherently very well behaved. Its one of the things that makes us human).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_many_angels_can_dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin%3F
jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 05:48:52
http://en...._dance_on_the_head_of_a_pin%3F
jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 05:50:58
Herring. The one word that explains Dutch height.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Sep 04 06:19:57
Jergul
Violence even if conducted by a fraction of humans have assymtrical effects, individually and on society. This is especially true today as violence becomes easier and easier to amplify. I include psychological and socially rooted violence in that as well. Violence is interesting :)


Regarding the dutch, milk and beef actually, the land was good for nothing but cows making the Dutch one of if not the highest consumers of cow related products. However height is 80% heritable, it means height was selected for, sexually, which is confirmed by studies. Taller dutch men have more children.
jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 06:37:29
Nimi
Holland has conscription data going far back. Diet, diet, diet. High lightly salted herring consumption is the defining feature of the Dutch diet.

The assymetrical effects of serious violence are interesting in so far as how various organizations are able to promote it effectively despite hardwired resistance to the practice amongst all humans.

There is clear evidence that this hardwired resistance can only be overcome by permanently harming the mental health of people subject to serious violence promoting regimes.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Sep 04 07:14:26
Yea, I mentioned diet, but your herring theory isn’t the mainstream one, it is dairy and meat. Diet and evolution. But the details are nit important for the fact that we can say that dutch men are the tallest among men. And we can do that for other things as well.

I think it is fine that we find different interesting things about violence and the causes of it. I think you are way off on the ”hardwired against it”, it isn’t in the absolutes at all. I think the problem here is an erronous assumption that violence wasn’t a big part of our past. It was, the male anatomy is ”made” for physical violence.

www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-27720617.amp

Another clue to why this view doesn’t hold, is that violent offender have more children. It is still a succesful reproductive strategy, as I mentioned earlier to Nekran, even in Sweden.

We are ”hardwired” to procreate you see, and there was a never a time when there was a shortage of men, willing to do all kinds of crazy and life endangering things to get popular with the ladies :)
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Sep 04 07:16:32
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-27720617
jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 07:57:33
Nimi
You do know that evolutionary change is measured in 10s of thousands generations, right?

You would need to go back 25k years or more to see meaningful change in human populations from an evolutionary standpoint.

We are hardwired against serious or even casual violence. Its the reason we don't use violence to resolve any and all disagreements.

Random, a few times in a lifetime episodes do not matter outside of the framework of organizations that systematically try to overcome that hardwire feature of humanity.

There is ample evidence that suggests procreation is not hardwired, it simply is a side effect of a number of human needs.

We stop having children when those needs are met in other ways.

jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 08:07:52
A casual google search shows that drugs and alcohol plays a huge role in violent incidents.

Interesting that mind altering and relatively new substances are so important in overcoming natural inhibitions aint it?
jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 08:21:50
#fermentedmaresmilk!=evolution :D
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Sep 04 08:24:18
Evolution is known to take place quicker than that time span. A pretty standard idea in the academic circles is that everything we have done to our diet and our environment, including the cultural, social and ideological complexes we have built that reward some behavior and punishes others have played a role in shaping us genetically. Unwitting eugenics you could call it. The death penalty alone is theorized to have effects in this.

You speak in absolutes and disregard that violent offenders, even in Sweden, are more fertile. Whatever wiring you see around violence is systematically and in a heritable fashion disregarded by the wires of procreation. Violent men have violent sons, and ciolent men have more children than non-violent ones. This isn’t really that strange, I think people are loading ”violence” instead of viewing it as adaptive or maladaptive. Plenty of circumstance were it is adaptive.
Habebe
Member
Sat Sep 04 08:33:17
"We are ”hardwired” to procreate you see, and there was a never a time when there was a shortage of men, willing to do all kinds of crazy and life endangering things to get popular with the ladies :)"

Chicks dig "badboys" , I once stole some random shit from a hardware store, IDK this chick would get random quirks, and at that moment, it turned her on to have me steal something, it didn't even matter what.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Sep 04 08:33:52
I am actually perhaps not surprisingly, skeptical that ”drugs” are a strong factor for why people are violent. It goes back to being wired differently and of course what drug it is, alcohol sure, weed, mdma, mushrooms etc., not even a little.

I think is important to keep in mind is that people at the bottom of society, even the violent ones, are very often self-medicating, they live stressful lives full of anxiety and fears.
Habebe
Member
Sat Sep 04 08:42:38
Mushroom rage is tearing this nation apart.
jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 09:15:18
Nimi
That is the scale used to measure evolutionary. 10s of thousands generations.

You are diregarding the argument that violence is not the natural state for any healthy human being. Violence would otherwise occur daily.

Risk prone individuals engaging in risk prone activity like occassional violence or habitual unprotected sex? Colour me surprised.

You are taking oulier incidents and painting a picture where it supposedly is the norm. It is not the norm by any strech of the imagination outside of extreme indoctrinated contexts.

Sure, there are plenty of mind alterating drugs that do not overcome our natural inhibitions against violence. But some certainly do.

Can you break people? Sure. But you have to break them if you want them to engage is serious violence as a matter of course.
jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 09:15:58
evolutionary change*
jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 09:22:36
Its a simple fact that habitual violence was not a viable strategy for most of human existence. Groups of less than 200 people cannot engage in casual violence against each other and expect to survive as a group.

We are delicate enough to be able to profoundly damage each other.

The proto human you are describing disapeared way before we discovered agriculture.
jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 09:25:48
*but what about other groups?*

Well, sure. Our anscestors certainly engaged in highly ritualized violence occassionally. I do not dispute that our hardwired reluctance to hurt each other can be overcome in certain contexts.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Sep 04 10:11:10
”That is the scale used to measure evolutionary.”

We have many scales to measure many things, even evolution I disagree with ”the scale”. Things happen here and there all the time, some changes take longer, others are quicker. This isn’t an interesting argument because no one I have come across in this space believes this.

”violence is not the natural state for any healthy human being. Violence would otherwise occur daily.”

The ”natural state” is contextual and dependent on the environment. You agree? Then you can think of many circumstances were violence is the only healthy thing. It is additionally a very strange condition for what is ”healthy behavior”, that it occur daily.

”picture where it supposedly is the norm”

Wow, is that really what you read? The opposite in fact, the point is that it _isn’t_ the norm anywhere, no major culture rewards criminal violent behavior and savagery, we punish it, culturally we admonish it and have debates each time Tarantino makes a movie ”glorifying violence”, and yet, violent criminals have more kids than average joe. This is only strange if one doesn’t understand ”violence capital” as an actually resource that can be used in the market to either exchange as labor or directly to extract resources and provide security.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Sep 04 10:21:42
”you want them to engage is serious violence as a matter of course”

Have you _ever_ watched a martial arts fight? You have very strange ideas about violence my friend. I know plenty of people, normal IQ and healthy mentally, where violence is there job or hobby.

We keep treading this same circle, where you for whatever reason have decided that engaging in violence is ”unatural”, while thinking I am saying it is The (capital T) natural state. Neither of those are true and I don’t believe in either. What is true and what I believe is that violence is _a_ natural part of our species. Individually we have different distances to travel to become violent, for some individuals it is very short.
Habebe
Member
Sat Sep 04 10:35:19
Jergul, I think your limiting your scope to macro evolution alone. Who is to say this isn't micro evolution of some kind, which cam occur relatively rapidly.

Also, violence is clearly in our nature.Through civilization we aim to harness or tamp it down.

I can't actually think of a more successfully violent species, we I 'll everything, violence is our super power.
Sam Adams
Member
Sat Sep 04 11:38:01
"Control for gangland and poverty social and economic factors."

I did.

An african is 100 times more likely to commit crime than a rich white person.
Sam Adams
Member
Sat Sep 04 11:39:43
"You sure there are 800 stabbing deaths performed by African Americans per year?"

Yes.
Habebe
Member
Sat Sep 04 15:09:06
IIRC blacks commit about 6-7 thousand murders yearly in the US out of 10-11k total.

Not sure how many with blades but 800 doesn't seem a far fetch.
jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 16:32:57
Nimi
I would suggest you find the scale of evolutionary change uninteresting because it completely undermines your position.

Nice shift of goal posts on what you now consider violent behavior. You sure that shift does not also completely undermine your position that black are more violent than say your friends?

Violence is clearly not in our nature as we so seldom engage in it. Civilization actually puts a lot of effort into overcoming hardwired barriers against violence.

A link on crime data to help fix IIRC issues. 1.1 million violent crimes reported nationally in the US in a given year. Declining every year despite population increases.

1.1 million violent crimes in a population of 330 million. Angles dancing on a pinhead indeed.

http://ucr...e_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Sep 04 17:49:51
Jergul
It isn’t my position that evolution works quicker than you assert. But sure, if the things I have read turn out to be wrong with the passage of time, then that is that.

”Nice shift of goal”

It’s not a shift in goal posts, I can and have been talking about violence from many angles, it is a complex subject. Earlier I even said we could define violence to include the verbal and psychological violence on social media and I said it is a problem that people load violence instead of viewing it as adapative or maladaptive. You started speaking in these absolute terms and I gave some nuance, many times the violence is about the violence. That should do away with any notion that it takes mind altering drugs or some other extra ordinary thing to have people engage in violence, people do it because it is fun and watch it because it is entertaining. That is a very strange activity for us to engage in, if it isn’t in our nature.

The fact that there are so many different martial arts around the world, several of them major sports and even olympic sports, should tell you something about violence place in our specie and global culture, it’s called ”art” for a reason. That is the positive end of the human violence spectrum ande can talk about that without anyone feeling like the goal posts have shifted. I mean are we talking or are you trying ”score” points on me? ;-)

”Violence” broadly is part of our culture and nature, we glorify it, idolize the practitioners of violence. So, honestly, the more you repeat that ”violence isn’t in our nature” the less sense it makes to me.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Sep 04 18:06:16
Here you go I saved you some googling:

” Contrary to popular belief, not only are humans still evolving, their evolution since the dawn of agriculture is faster than ever before.[1][2][3]”

Three seperate sources, right there in the preamble of the wiki article. It isn’t some personally motivated position of mine that can be undermined. It is the current standard view on human evolution.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Sep 04 18:06:32
Link
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recent_human_evolution
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Sep 04 18:15:42
It is possible that human culture—itself a selective force—has accelerated human evolution.[4][5] With a sufficiently large data set and modern research methods, scientists can study the changes in the frequency of an allele occurring in a tiny subset of the population over a single lifetime, the shortest meaningful time scale in evolution.[6]

From Wiki

First source:

”In fact, people today are genetically more different from people living 5,000 years ago than those humans were different from the Neanderthals who vanished 30,000 years ago, according to anthropologist John Hawks of the University of Wisconsin.”

I hope we can finally put this to rest!
jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 22:08:26
That last quote is blatantly untrue.

You know you are in trouble when you are citing associate professors from no name universities in a different field as authorities on genetic timelines.

None of the examples in the earlier examples suggest anything other than adaptation within a range our genetic make-up permits.

I get that you want to think that any timeline has to happen within your lifetime, but for evolution, you are off by many orders of magnitude.

jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 22:09:50
Go punch you wife. Show us in practice it is within your nature.
Habebe
Member
Sat Sep 04 22:11:26
I won't have stand by and have you bad mouth the University of Wisconsin (Go Cheese heads).


And Ive jad just about enough of ypur vasser bashing.
jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 22:15:52
lol habebe. But who will defend associate professors in anthropology?
jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 22:17:48
Now go punch your mom. Show us violence is inherent to your nature.

Or did you note some inherent reluctance from even thinking of doing that?
jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 22:34:24
On reflection, our ability to engage in organised violence after heavy indoctrination may be hardwired. The genocide of near human species may have served an evolutionary purpose, and channelling that leftover evolutionary trait to apply on "others" may be exactly what is happening.
jergul
large member
Sat Sep 04 22:35:47
Its a mirror expression on evolutionary coding that tells us not to have sex with siblings. Something too close to us is not a good thing to have children with.
Cloud Strife
Member
Sun Sep 05 05:52:13
It is likely also responsible for the "uncanny valley" effect seen in awkward animations and in some diseases/horror makeups. Things that are highly similar to humanity, but not sufficiently similar are repulsive and ugly.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Sep 05 08:05:07
Jergul
If it is untrue it is an empiric question, you have not presented any and instead now make an argument from authority. The truth apparently resides in the name of the professor and status of the argument. Together with your overall dismissive attitude and tweet sized engagement, not very interesting or compelling to continue.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Sep 05 08:24:41
”Go punch you wife. Show us in practice it is within your nature.”

This is actually great because it makes me understand you better and what you mean wuth ”violence isn’t in our nature means”. Violence” according to your definition, is a vert narrow sociopathic activity that truly isn’t within the nature of most people, like randomly beating your wife. I kind of predicted this already by explaining ”violence” from different angles and nuances. You are correct jergul, this definition of violence, while completely useless for understanding violence broadly, the adaptive, the maladaptive and all the violence that lives in the grey zones, is as you say ”unnatural” and requires some extreme thing to overcome.

I just wished you could have put some effort into explaining this and into understanding what I am saying, instead of repeating the same words over and over. Most of the violence in the world doesn’t fall within this narrow band that you describe. Even this ”go beat your wife” example, which to me flag the end of your patience, is so far off the mark! The instance a man uses violence to defend his wife, your entire theory about what violence is and what informs it, implodes.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Sep 05 08:51:56
In closing, once you understand that there is an adaptive and desirable form of violence, that to engage in it (especially for men) is indeed within our nature, then it is easy to see how that nature can be hijacked and used for many purposes.

Jergul you and I know each other only because we enjoy games where the objective is to project industrialized and organized violence to destroy adversaries. Now we happened to grow up in stable circumstances so that fascination with violence is expressed in pixels and nobody dies, but those are the exact same natural wires that pulls men to engage in both adaptive and maladaptive forms of violence.

Not understanding this is dangerous. These ideas are floating around in scadinavian pedagogy, tell boys to supress these things by pretending they don’t exist. The result is that the demons consume many of these boys, instead of the boys recognizing that it is there, wrestling with the demon and subduing it.

The men on this forum come from all walks of life, different faiths and ideologies, we disagree on practically everything. We are only united by a fascination for war and violence. I never said this, but I giggle when you and seb, two very progressivly minded feminists nerd over military hardware and troop movement in Syria, the specs of russian missiles and radar. I think it is hilarious that you do not see how fascinated you are with violence, the act itself and the methods for projecting it. You may think different, because you have compartmentalized what ”violence” means, violence is some sociopath activity and not the things you are interested in. Well it isn’t, it’s all violence, just that some of it is adaptive, some mal-adaptive and a bunch of it lives in a grey area. Complex stuff and not reduced to an activity among sociopaths without losing a part of your humanity.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Sep 05 11:37:32
Since you value authorative sources and brand recognition in knowledge, here is a Ivy league proffessor:

”Many people think evolution requires thousands or millions of years, but biologists know it can happen fast. Now, thanks to the genomic revolution, researchers can actually track the population-level genetic shifts that mark evolution in action—and they're doing this in humans. Two studies presented at the Biology of Genomes meeting here last week show how our genomes have changed over centuries or decades, charting how since Roman times the British have evolved to be taller and fairer, and how just in the last generation the effect of a gene that favors cigarette smoking has dwindled in some groups.

"Being able to look at selection in action is exciting," says Molly Przeworski, an evolutionary biologist at Columbia University. The studies show how the human genome quickly responds to new conditions in subtle but meaningful ways, she says. "It's a game-changer in terms of understanding evolution.”

I spend a lot of time in this space, I have yet to come across anyone with a Phd in biology or evolutionary related fields that thinks otherwise. Largely because the ideas you have voiced are rooted in such a fundamental misunderstanding of evolution at the level of microbiology and biochemistry, that by the second year as undergrads all that confusion has dissapated.
jergul
large member
Sun Sep 05 12:05:38
Nimi
Neanderthals are a different species. Rediculous claims need rediculous evidence. The onus is not on me to disprove a ludicrous statement. The onus is on you to provide ample evidence that the associate professor is actually telling the truth.

As to characteristics of a given population changing through contact and breeding with different populations over time, then sure.

Just as off-on switches in dna are interesting and can easily change states within the frame of a human lifespan and to some degree be heritable.

"evolution at the level of microbiology and biochemistry" Rofl.

Evolution as a process that fundamentally changes the characteristics of a given, isolated population.

Not the act of breeding. Which magically gives off-spring with different dna than either parent. Wow. The magic of microbiology and biochemstry.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Sep 05 12:30:58
Well this is you picking the details of what is being instantiated and willfully ignoring the abstraction that is, as I said, the standard view on human evolution. As an example, at one time we thought we shared 98% DNA with chimps, that figure turned out to be lower. That correction in the deatils didn’t invalidate our ancestory with chimps.

Booooring :P

Nice day to you my friend.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Sep 05 12:34:42
Just to clear up some confusion in general about my position on the OP. I have no idea if the disproportionate violent offence among American blacks is genetic, I objected to Nekran on principle, as studied, that genes play a significant role in violence and socioeconomic status doesn’t, that last part is equally important. Personally if you ask me I would expect to find that there are population differences in the genes that regulate violence, that some populations have more and other less of it. And then I expect to find out rather simple historical and environmental explanations for why that is, like with the height of the Dutch. I don’t care about crude social categories like ”race” and I said in one of the earliest posts, that the race issue is the least interesting aspect of the heritability of violence (provided studies on ethnically white european populations), even though it often rides in the front seat. These are not things I am interested in or that I think has any value, so I leave it to seb and sam to figure it out.

I tell you what though, if one day it does turn out blacks are ”genetically more violent”, it will have zero impact on my world view and the level of dignity and respect I think people deserve as individuals. My values are immune against future science.
jergul
large member
Sun Sep 05 12:44:48
Men far more often use violence against their wives than to protect their wives.

My point is that we do not engage in violence with any degree of regularity. Intra-species violence does not characterise our species because evolutionary pressure removed that trait over thousands of generations in pre-historic times.

We can strongly suspect that it used to be different for pre human species we evolved from. We can be manipulated in various ways to overcome natural inhibitions. In addition we have our fascination with violence as a concept, ritualized violence as entertainment, and pretend violence that occassionally occurs at low intensity when social posturing gets out of hand.
Cloud Strife
Member
Sun Sep 05 12:47:53
`My point is that we do not engage in violence with any degree of regularity.'

Hahaha, are you sure about that?
jergul
large member
Sun Sep 05 12:52:42
Interestingly, the mechanism for finding almost humans abhorrent is likely quite powerful. Not doing so would result in hybrid, sterile offspring that are literally are dead ends in an evolutionary sense.
jergul
large member
Sun Sep 05 12:54:52
CS
Absolutely sure of that. How many fights have you gotten into in your lifetime?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Sep 05 13:19:40
How many times have you given birth jergul? This idea that for something to be inherently part of our nature, all individuals of our species need to DAILY engage in it, is not the greatest intellectual contribution you have made :P

It all makes sense if you realize that every time you are engaging in pixle battles on EVE or whatever you are playing these days, you are engaging in what your brain accepts as projecting violence on, ”the other”. Just like jerking off to porn, hijacks your horny man brain to think you have spread your seeds.

Keep that in mind when you fire those plasma guns next time or send your cavalry to charge those enemy lines.
Cloud Strife
Member
Sun Sep 05 13:28:49
You mean fisticuffs? A round of tomfoolery and shenanigans after the footy? Are you suggesting that because people aren't beating each other to death in the streets (except from the aforementioned violent crime) that violence isn't onmnipresent in our society?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Sep 05 13:36:08
Pushing and wrestling, children engage in this naturally without any input. It is very apparent in boys. You have to ask yourself, why do we readily learn some thing quicker than others. The genetic component of behaviors is often like that. Monkeys are not born with a fear of snakes, but they learn to fear snakes much quicker than other animals and objects. Been studied. On the flipside monkeys in areas without snakes don’t pick up this behavior, yet they have inherent pathways to quickly pick it up.

I can only implore you to read more, because literally everything you have said is contradicted by the literature.
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