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Utopia Talk / Politics / Sweden burning oil again
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 23 06:57:42
The reserve oil plant, part of the strategic energy plan of Sweden is running full blast, in September. We had to run it in February, but that was a cold month.

We have an extremist* party (Green party) in the government, that is dead set on killing the nuclear power plants, by using a clause in the Swedish law that mandates that all reactors close down, unless the government has taken a decision on permanent storage of spent fuel rods. So, they intend to not take any decision and fulfill their ideological conviction, even if that means buying coal power from Poland and burning oil.

*The thing is that Sweden broadly and most of Scandinavia, already are very mindful of the environment on a cultural level. It didn't take long for environmental issues to be ubiquitous in Swedish politics. There is really no opposition here that thinks we should "drill baby drill". So for the green party (a single issue platform) to stay relevant they have to do crazy and irrational things that do not align with lived reality.

Discuss.

jergul
large member
Thu Sep 23 07:06:38
Nuclear is too big to shut down on a pro-forma clause.

Coal is a trivial contributor. Energy imports from Poland at times are part and parcel of EU energy policies.

Oil is a thing in Sweden. So what if a reserve plante is in use right now.

http://www.iea.org/countries/sweden
jergul
large member
Thu Sep 23 07:08:30
My feeling on nuclear power is that it is transitioning towards being the lesser evil from a Green perspective.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 23 07:25:55
"Nuclear is too big to shut down on a pro-forma clause."

They have only kicked the can down the road, by extending the amount that can be stored at Oskarshamn. These uncertainties together with a bunch of other historical laws and taxes is what makes expanding nuclear power economically unfeasible in Sweden. Then people use that impossible economic calculus as an argument for why nuclear power is economically unsound.

"So what if a reserve plante is in use right now."

It isn't a very efficient use of oil for one.
Additionally because the oil plant it isn't meant to be used other than times of crises. Because using it in september is an indication (the winds are not blowing strong enough) of how winter will be. Because companies are denied permits for new factories from electrical companies, because they can't supply the electricity. Because the price of electricity is now winter level! Part of the reason why burning oil makes sense.

Most importantly because this is all following a deteriorating trend that is the subject of yearly reports from the grind operator. We don't need to hit the bottom to realize things are going in the wrong direction, anymore than we needed dead bodies littering the streets to take Covid seriously.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 23 07:29:51
"My feeling on nuclear power is that it is transitioning towards being the lesser evil from a Green perspective."

There is no indication of this happening in Sweden. None. And something can be said about playing a game of chicken with the national energy production. Having irresponsibly ideologically motivated people without any pragmatism in power is bad. I think you agree. So, in the best case scenario it is a question of how much do the Greens ruin before rationality prevails.
jergul
large member
Thu Sep 23 08:18:46
Nimi
Expanding nuclear power is unrealistic in Sweden. There are very few countries large enough to support a fully fledged nuclear power plant production industry.

I did not mean the green party specifically. As green becomes more and more mainstream and integrated into all parties, the more the single issue party will become a marginalized circus of crazies.

Alas, reaching carbon neutrality does have two elements. One of which is increasing CO2 efficiency, the other of which is slowing down the speed of economic growth.

Burning oil in high efficient central plants is more efficient than combustion engines. So if you wanted to aim for the low hanging fruit...
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 23 08:38:49
"Expanding nuclear power is unrealistic in Sweden."

A self-fulfilling prophecy. Everyone keeps saying this and it will keep being true, because everyone keeps saying it. So no one will do the necessary work so the tree can bear fruits 10 years from now. It is completely insular and circular reasoning.

But any how, the argument falls flat, in light of Finland, a smaller nation, building 2 new reactors.

"the more the single issue party will become a marginalized circus of crazies."

The crazies are in the government, and the foreseeable political situations and deadlock means the Social democrats need the crazies.

"Burning oil in high efficient central plants is more efficient than combustion engines."

You are right, it is, so we can remove that from the list of problems with firing up the oil plant.
jergul
large member
Thu Sep 23 08:43:29
Nimi
Its understanding that nuclear power is too expensive when you batch produce nuclear power plants.

Perpetual serial production is required to build up and retain the skilled labour needed at every point in the construction process.

Just pretend your job is to pour concrete for radioactive shielding.

What has to be done to make sure you have that job for the next 30 years?
jergul
large member
Thu Sep 23 08:48:26
http://wor...Hanhikivi-1-schedule-and-costs

Its not enough with using international companies specializing in nuclear designs across the globe.

A lot of the work has to be done locally and lifetime costs are directly impacted by any delays in getting a plant operational.

Cement pourer Nimi needs nuclear powr plant work until he retires for the economics to work.
jergul
large member
Thu Sep 23 08:50:42
technically "forskallingsarbeider", but I have no idea of what that is in English :D
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 23 09:06:13
"Its not enough with using international companies specializing in nuclear designs across the globe."

It definitely is enough to start. We can't lower the costs, because we don't have the industry and know how and then we never start, so we will never get it. Rinse repeat, yes I already described this. This is a man made problem, and not very difficult to solve. The journey of a thousand miles... and the argument against that is, I don't have the right shoes for a walk that long! It is that trivial as an argument, even if the thousand mile journey isn't trivial.

jergul
large member
Thu Sep 23 09:37:57
Nimi
You dont have the industry because you cannot sustain the industry.

You want to walk a journey of a 1000 miles on a 10 foot long pier.
jergul
large member
Thu Sep 23 09:41:28
You do know you are a net exporter of electricity, right? That sort of really underlines the problem with building up a sustainable nuclear power plant production line.

You dont need it.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 23 09:46:30
We don't need to sustain the entire industry by ourselves.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 23 09:51:50
"You do know you are a net exporter of electricity, right?"

No sense in overproducing electricity or being forced to shut down windturbines during the windy summer months that the country does not need that much electricity. It is, as I have said, about the amount of planable production. We definitely need that.
jergul
large member
Thu Sep 23 09:58:25
Nimi
The thing is, you need to sustain work done locally by yourselves for affordable nuclear energy. This is not doable, so you have the choice between highly subsidising nuclear energy, dramatically increasing the price of energy (which the fist point does anyway), or not building new plants.

Net means exactly that. After a year is done, you have exported more than you imported. Seasonal variations do not mean anything for as long as hydro power is the battery in your energy system (lots of wind means not drawing down stored water).
jergul
large member
Thu Sep 23 09:59:47
Both China and Russia have tried the roaming bands of skilled construction workers travelling abroad to build nuclear stuff. It generally plays out poorly.
Sam Adams
Member
Thu Sep 23 10:55:23
The euro energy prices just get more and more fucked as incompetent choices compound.

*except france.

You can be like france a decade from now, with stable prices and lower co2 output. All you gotta do is to choose nukes instead of wind turbines.
Sam Adams
Member
Thu Sep 23 11:07:11
Everyone needs to switch to electric cars to save the climate!!!!

But dont build reliable electricity production.

Greens are retarded.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 23 11:36:18
"The thing is, you need to sustain work done locally by yourselves for affordable nuclear energy."

We do not no, we can in fact outsource the building of the reactors to Areva/Siemens. If we needed to do everything alone then we already done it once so I have no idea what "not doable" even means. These reactors currently operational, were built by Swedish companies.

So, we can either start from scratch and do it ourselves, or outsource it or have a larger consortium of nations do it together. The latter is preferable given that the entire world need a lot more nuclear reactors, if anyone is taking anything the IPCC saying seriously.

But all of these trivial technical and supply chain problems (that are largely solved by picking a standard reactor design and certifying it) are pointless, since it all starts with a political decisions. Once that is taken all these other "problems" evaporate.
jergul
large member
Thu Sep 23 11:48:48
Nimi
Reactors are a small part of a nuclear power plant - of which everything needs to be certified to very high standards. Its highly skilled labour across the board. You dont want 1 power plant. You want 1 every year for the forseeable future. For example.

You can do anthing you like if you are willing to pay for it. You want to do artisan nuclear power. Fair enough.

But then you pay artisan prices.
jergul
large member
Thu Sep 23 12:08:46
http://en....Lazard)_-_renewable_energy.svg
jergul
large member
Thu Sep 23 12:13:26
Levelised cost of hydropower is about 40 USD mw/h
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 23 12:58:46
"of which everything needs to be certified to very high standards."

That is why I said 1 reactor design. Add small scale to that. These are not actual problems that you are raising, since they have been solved already and is actually the trend. Small scale, standardized modular reactors that can be built in a factory and shipped away. That in turn streamlines the certification process.

"Levelised cost of hydropower is about 40 USD mw/h"

Sure, go nuts, but we don't have any more rivers to dam up, there is only 1 river in the north left and that one is protected.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Sep 23 13:06:30
"You can do anthing you like if you are willing to pay for it. You want to do artisan nuclear power. Fair enough."

Like domestic vaccine production of artisan vaccines. Energy security sits at the base of everything else, and currently we are at the mercy of the whims of the weather. Buying hydropower from Norway, presupposes normal precipitation. One dry season followed by a cold winter and it that is no longer an option.
kargen
Member
Thu Sep 23 13:37:32
"Cement pourer Nimi needs nuclear powr plant work until he retires for the economics to work."

That is a silly argument. A friend does underwater welding on oil rigs. A very specialized skill. It isn't year round work though. That doesn't mean he sits on his ass. Being qualified for that type of welding he pretty much qualifies for just about any welding job there is. So he works other jobs as he wants. They don't pay as well but they still pay very good. When a rig job opens he is back in the water making the big bucks allowing him to buy all kinds of cool toys.
murder
Member
Thu Sep 23 15:40:21

"Greens are retarded."

Greens don't want everyone to switch to electric cars. They want everyone to walk or ride a bicycle.

murder
Member
Thu Sep 23 15:54:23

If the Fukushima clusterfuck had occurred in Tokyo instead, there would be zero support left for nuclear energy.



Sam Adams
Member
Thu Sep 23 16:31:12
Why would anyone build a nuke plant in tokyo.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Oct 01 15:00:39
Oh dear.

Swedish Vattenfall the state owned power company has gone out with a warning now that prices* will likely be record high coming 3 months due to rising fuel prices and lack of rain. Right now the spot price is about the levels they were in December 2020.

*Assuming it will be a normal winter and not a 10 or 20 year low.
Paramount
Member
Fri Oct 01 15:14:31
Svenska Kraftnät: Electricity prices will rise more this autumn

High electricity prices will probably be even higher when we move towards cooler months, reports SVT News.

Pontus de Maré, operations manager at Svenska Kraftnät, notes that electricity prices are already "historically high", especially in southern Sweden. This autumn, the British electricity market will also be connected to Swedish power lines, with almost double the price.

- It will then have an impact here in the Nordics as well, prices will then rise in Sweden and Norway, says Pontus de Maré to the channel.

http://omn...-att-stiga-mer-i-host/a/MLPxVK


Who was the idiot who thought it was a good idea to connect the british electricity market to Swedish power lines? If that is going to double the electricity costs in Sweden and Norway, then the person who decided this should be keelhauled.
Sam Adams
Member
Fri Oct 01 16:12:31
http://www...affecting-chinas-power-rations

China is also fucking up.

Like every intelligent engineer has been sayimg for the last few decades: should have built more nukes.
Paramount
Member
Wed Oct 06 13:19:12
It may be time to buy candles and matches now.

It may also be good to get a crank radio. Just in case.
Habebe
Member
Sat Oct 09 00:18:28
Sweden should get down with gas.All the cool kids are doing it.

Safe cooking with gas starts with range location

Also avoid traffic going by and I so-lation.

http://youtu.be/FJRQo5aawho

Honestly if you have 2 minutes, this video is well worth your time.
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