Utopia Talk / Politics / foundation

Sam Adams Member	Sat Sep 25 11:47:29 Is this going to be another modern woke cultist flop?
jergul large member	Sat Sep 25 11:53:39 For cult, see Atlas Shrugged.
Rugian Member	Sun Sep 26 08:51:39 If people here give it high marks I'll try to watch it. Hollywood these days turns everything they touch into shit though, so by default I'm not expecting much.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Sep 26 08:55:46 Pretty good so far.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Sep 27 02:20:54 I mean they have made some dramatic changes from the books, changed the sex of a central character, initiated a love story and… well even more, but I am OK with changing things for the screen, it has to be done.
Seb Member	Tue Sep 28 17:15:34 Pretty good so far. I think we are going to find out that the robot(s) did the bombing - for the same reason in the books they made the Earth radioactive.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Sep 28 18:13:27 Seb "I think we are going to find out that the robot(s) did the bombing" Alright, we have our first story arch prediction. Game on! The way I see approach this is very charitable. Someone decided to produce the quintessential sci fi story of all time, a story with an immense scope and probably the most influential in the entire genre. From Star Wars to Warhammer 40k, they all have some Foundation in them. It's a crazy project! They get a B for effort from me right from the get go. The changes they have made to the characters, I totally get most of it. The books are completely void of romance and suspense, some things have to be done otherwise this is not surviving. As much as I love the books, it won't capture huge audiences and I rather see that happen that for them to go puritan. And whatever I don't get are details, the story is not about the characters!
CrownRoyal Member	Tue Sep 28 18:29:48 The books are not very cinematic, indeed. You can see that Apple threw serious money behind it, the show looks great. And the acting is fine, Jared Harris is always A+. But I understood why they thought they had to invent a lot of stuff, to make that book look better on screen. Two episodes in, I’m not disappointed. Maybe this is a low standard
earthpig GTFO HOer	Tue Sep 28 18:48:06 Anywhere to watch this without buying Apple stuff?
Dukhat Member	Tue Sep 28 18:56:06 The books are shit if only because Arthur C. Clarke decided to make shitty sequels to make money. They weren't very good books anyways. Arthur C. Clarke is vastly overrated just because of 2001. The sequels to that book were horrible too.
nhill Member	Tue Sep 28 21:16:49 Arthur C. Clarke didn’t even author the books you fucking clueless idiot.
Rugian Member	Tue Sep 28 21:24:21 Did Dukhat just confuse Foundation with Rama? Lol
Dukhat Member	Tue Sep 28 22:01:56 Oh it's asimov. My B
Sam Adams Member	Tue Sep 28 22:50:32 Lol cuckhat is retarded.
Seb Member	Wed Sep 29 02:47:22 Nim, CR: Yeah, Asimov is pretty good with high concept and plot, but his characterisation is wooden ​to the point that most of the people are little more than one note archetypes that exist to further the plot. Changing the sex of one of the characters barely makes a difference frankly - the one I think we are talking about has no real features at all in the book appart from being a cunning and astute politician. I don't remember the emperor triumvirate - is that from another series or new? Dukhat: Depends what you are looking for. Asimov books are not brilliant writing or characterisation - but pretty good plot, internal consistency and high concept SF. Clarke is similar but a bit better with the characterisation. Whoever is doing the show running here is doing a good job so far. Earthpig: Eztv and utorrent is how I do it?
earthpig GTFO HOer	Wed Sep 29 03:00:08 "Oh it's asimov. My B" Um, no. You are banned from this thread and all subsequent threads forever. "Eztv and utorrent is how I do it?" le sigh. I'm out of that world, I wouldn't know legit from extending my car's extended warranty.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Sep 29 03:41:50 You asked for a way to not pay Apple for the *Apple produced show*, you already knew the answer to that and presumably your own response to the answer. You linux people are impossible to please! Don't watch it then! LOL :)
Daemon Member	Wed Sep 29 04:45:54 In other news: http://www...straczynski-warner-bros-the-cw In 1994, J. Michael Straczynski (Sense8, Changeling) brought the world a science fiction show like nothing we’d ever seen. Babylon 5 told a single five-year story, filled with foreshadowing, deep political intrigue, and characters who grew and evolved, at a time when most TV shows still reset the agenda after every single episode. He wrote the vast majority of the award-winning show himself, and it appears he may be about to do it again — Warner Bros. Television is now in development on a “from-the-ground-up reboot” of Babylon 5 with Straczynski as writer and showrunner, designed to air on the CW. (...)
Seb Member	Wed Sep 29 05:49:10 Daemon: Very excited about that!
Seb Member	Wed Sep 29 05:51:27 But it needs to have the same relation to the original that BSG reboot did to BSG. Start from scratch - even if you keep the vorlon/shadow war - which is about clash of culture/ideology; I think you can tell that conflict in a totally different way now (would not involve space battles).
Seb Member	Wed Sep 29 05:51:47 I mean the shadows would not *need* to do so.
Seb Member	Wed Sep 29 05:52:17 What I really want, actually, is JMS to be show runner for a series based in the universe of Iain M Banks Culture series.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Sep 29 06:03:21 Oh my, when it rains it pours. I have longed for JMS to do something with the B5 universe again, I had given up hope, this is fantastic! Took them a while to realize that JMS did what everyone now understands to be a winning story telling format, in the 90’s!
earthpig GTFO HOer	Wed Sep 29 11:33:48 " You linux people are impossible to please! Don't watch it then!" I haven't been a linux person in like a decade. How old we all are. :)
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Sep 29 11:48:44 haha speaking of I had a business meeting yesterday and this Finnish guy all suited up and looking like a slick business man, his ring tone was Numb by linkin park :) I realized everyone in the room was around my age. The entire meeting I kept thinking, holy shit we are the grown ups?! How did this happen?
Seb Member	Wed Sep 29 12:36:41 Just found this in a review: "Asimov himself realized the narrative possibilities when he revisited Foundation for a new trilogy in the 1980s. In the author’s note for Foundation’s Edge, he says that, upon re-reading his earlier work, “I kept waiting for something to happen, and nothing ever did. All three volumes, all the nearly quarter of a million words, consisted of thoughts and of conversations. No action. No physical suspense… each book in the trilogy had at least two stories and lacked unity.”"
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Sep 29 13:14:03 His life work and upon reading it he says it is a boring story, lol :) The man was genius. I fell for the the universe he built and managed to fill with just enough details and leave enough ambiguity to make it feel real.
Seb Member	Wed Sep 29 14:31:14 Foundation was written in 1940's, published in the 50's it's actually some of his earlier works...
Seb Member	Wed Sep 29 14:33:04 I also just remembered that there are actually two sex* swapped characters in the first two episodes. I had thought one was a new character standing in for an old, but had forgotten they were operating then under a pseudonym. *possibly gender is a better description for what has been swapped in the latter case.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Sep 29 14:41:01 Life's work may sound like the wrong phrase, but it ultimately set the scene for a lot of his later books. It was (huehue), the Foundation for his life's work :P
Seb Member	Wed Sep 29 16:11:24 Just saying it makes sense that after a lifetime of writing, coming back to his earlier works he will see they could be improved.
Seb Member	Wed Sep 29 16:11:58 Like, great concept, interesting plot - but not actually very compelling stories.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Sep 29 18:22:18 Of course, I just thought it sounded funny, he comes off so underwhelmed and disappointed. It speaks to character.
Habebe Member	Wed Sep 29 18:42:38 You know what I thought was going to be ruined by wokism but was actually good, the black wonder years. Dont get me wrong, its in their, but its not over the top to where it ruins the show.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Sep 30 02:51:59 I think my 007 thread is actually the kind of bullshit I don’t want. Who the fuck want’s to see one of Bond spy chicks drop a tampon in the bin? Who the fuck goes to see Bond to ”relate” to the charachters based on hygien activities?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Oct 03 05:36:16 You fuckers need to start watching this series. Episode 3 just jumped centuries back and decades forward. The actress playing Eto, I am impressed how she plays that character, like she is about the cry half the time, yet conveys a cold and emotionless demeanor. So initial resistance that Salvor Hardin is this gunslinging lone wolf badass, when the character was a politician who excelled at diplomacy and brinksmanship, but fair enough we need action. It will thus be very interesting to see how this whole Anacreon thing will play out in the series :)
Seb Member	Mon Oct 04 17:33:48 Loving the triumvirate emperor dynamics, the first bit of 3 is really interesting and poignant in a way that Asimov novels never really achieved (of memory serves)
Seb Member	Mon Oct 04 17:36:23 Btw - you remember who Eto was in the novels novels right? (Just say yes /no No spoilers)
Seb Member	Mon Oct 04 18:19:16 Btw, I assume the reason seldon got killed was because: A. He said he didn't expect to be on the ship to terminus himself B: as mentioned little started to be too familiar "Hari now, it used to be Dr Seldon" C: his predictions required he be a legendary like figure not a humanised crank. So he got his adopted son to kill him. So far this has not been explained and I'm trying to figure out if this is because the show is really leaning into audience being clever or saving for future plot reveal.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Oct 05 04:22:52 ”you remember who Eto was in the novels novels right?” *nods*
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Oct 05 04:27:11 I was also perplexed by the ”murder” of Seldon, especially since it was meant to be obvious that it part of a grand plan. This is different than the books, he just dies at working at his desk or something on Trantor. So, I would guess it will end up being important for the series plot. *shrugs*
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Oct 05 05:13:31 I read this elsewhere, but regarding Salvor, a character development from this gun slinging lone wolf to the character that will say "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent". Sounds like a reasonable journey.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 05 06:31:24 Nim: We need to find out what happened to his student too. She got shot off into space. I mean I guess it's important to the plot how and why he died but the sequencing seems very odd - to end on the cliff hanger and then just ignore it for an entire episode - so I'm wondering if we are just supposed to have figured this out as obvious given there were a bunch of scenes setting it up (assuming my training above is correct!) or they just wanted a mystery box. Still, I loved the whole fleshing out of the imperial triumvirates lifecycle, it also doesn't seem to be that relevant unless it is to set up in microcosm a certain theme RE a long game being played around civilisational planned obsolescence and renewal. Just a note though: does anyone else find the lighting a tad too dark. I need to kill all the lights in the room and outside to be able to see some scenes.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Oct 05 07:12:17 "imperial triumvirates lifecycle" Must admit, it was a bit confusing with all the clones at different ages and jumping back and forward in time, I had to re-watch the sequence. But yea, I loved that. "does anyone else find the lighting a tad too dark." I sit in a dark room, so it has not occurred to me.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Oct 05 07:18:08 "We need to find out what happened to his student too. She got shot off into space." Totally dropped off from memory this one. "to end on the cliff hanger and then just ignore it for an entire episode" It is still very very early in the series, but I seriously hope they don't go full GoT on this one and start too many threads they can't tie up. They don't have to deal with a notoriously slow author here, but if they wanted to screw this up, they have an entire universe to do it in.
Seb Member	Tue Oct 05 08:03:44 Nim: I was actually more worried about it going a bit Lost: the kind of shitty "lets put something unexplained we don't really have an answer for to get some fan speculation going, but we can come back to that next season and figure what that was all about" bullshit. Random murder of Hari made me think it was going to be much slower in terms of how far through the plot each season would take you - so just ignoring it and moving the plot up to the first crisis 20 years later feels like there is nowhere obvious for it to fit in, though I suppose they can show flashbacks if it is somehow relevant to the 1st crisis - I just can't quite see how it can be. I suppose - if the reason for him being killed is as I suggest - and the "only other person" that understands psychohistory is shot into space, that might have something to do with the second foundation (come to think of it, wasn't the second foundation announced when the vault opened for the first crisis?).
Seb Member	Sun Oct 10 15:34:19 Ok... so where is this going now eh?
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Oct 17 08:56:04 ... So what do you think? I don't know. It is still early, but I feel like they are making a mess of things. They better have a good explanation for why Hari had to be MURDERED and not just commit suicide, if they wanted to accelerate the timeline. His son was executed. And jesus fucking christ, did you see that Anacreon assault when the shields went down? I have not seen such butchery of military tactics since the Dothraki charge of the White walkers in season 8 (?) of GoT. Why do they do this shit? Why didn't she warn the Imperial ship, the FIRST thing she did, I mean she was savvy enough to understand who they were hiding it from! I hate stuff like this! And the whole dangerously convoluted stuff with Gaal in the ship. She almost commited suicide!
Seb Member	Mon Nov 01 18:09:27 Catching up, I was in germany for a week with family and they don't like me torrenting on their network. Watched 5 and 6. My view, they screwed the pooch. In fixing the flatness of the novels in character and narrative, they fucked the whole conceptual piece to death - but that is all there really is in most Azimov. You've got to find a way to preserve the concepts, not transliterate the plot points, or it just isn't the same thing anymore. Shame, because it's got amazing production values and a lot of good stuff, but it's clearly being produced by people who do not understand the source material at all. Why are the anacreon's so brutal: hey, shits and giggles. But then how exactly is the whole reverse colonisation of Anacreon going to work now? It is supposed to become one of the founding partners of the new empire. They are talking about the invictus as some legendary lost planet killer - am I right in remembering that was the warship that terminus built for the anachreons in the novel, with the tech priest etc? I don't really see how they can climb their way back to the plot of the novels from here. It's a possibly entertaining ride, but it's up there with Will Smith's I, Robot in terms of fucking up an adaptation of an Azimov novel.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 01 19:18:17 I guess they don't need to cast the mule as it seems there are now lots of outliers... though that wasn't supposed to be a term for "person with paranormal powers", rather an extreme reason why someone might create a statistical outlier in terms of scenarios well outside the expected distribution of events. Very much screwed the pooch.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Nov 01 19:47:24 "Watched 5 and 6." "Very much screwed the pooch." I watched e7, you have no idea how much they have screwed it. If I had doubts they are all gone :,(
Seb Member	Tue Nov 02 17:51:59 Yeah I finished 7 now. I'm pretty sure invictus on the novels was a ship built for the barbarian empire that they were going to use on terminus, but the foundation "tech priest" turned off demonstrating their power? Fun fact, Asimov mentions in passing that the barbarian space ships are coal powered at one point. Also iirc, personal force fields were an invention of terminus that was superior to anything the empire had produced. Anyway, that's all fluff and not that important. Lots of foundation isn't actually that good if copied slavishly. The series isn't accurate to the spirit of the thing on any level. Still going to watch it though. I wonder what someone who understands complicated plot and high concept but who can also do high production, character and narrative (say JMS) could have done with this.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Nov 03 03:03:24 All good and well, but Gaal predicting the future, they totally fucked up there. But that entire story line is ruined so I guess no surprises, just add magical powers. They have turned it into a Sci fi fantasy, like Dune or Star Wars, when it was nothing like those series in terms of the "forces" that governs the universe. And see, that is a huge problem for me, because when I read fantasy or sci fi, the things that intrigues me the most is the world building, I have half a dozen worlds I never finished over the course of 30 years, that is what I nerd over. So this violation is quite disturbing for me, since it was the one thing I was looking forward to and the one thing Asimov did great. Go nuts with the character, change their genders, skin color do what ye will with them, just don't change the fabric of the universe. Psychohistory, you know I brought this up when we have debated things about social science, that was like the central thing I took away from Foundation and it is increasingly taking a back seat. I will watch it for now, but this isn't Asimov's foundation.
Seb Member	Wed Nov 03 04:21:55 That's what I meant about everyone being an outlier. Salvor and gaal both having supernatural powers *and* being in pivotal roles... No wonder seldon killed himself, any psycohistoric based plan can't work under the circumstances (/jk) The writers don't get the concept - you have the digital ghost of Seldon rumbling on about the fate hinging on individuals but the whole point is that psycohistoric predictions are statistically emergent. Ditto, whatever is about to happen on invictus is also statistically unpredictable - terminus being forced info building ships that let the barbarian empires run amok is predictable. Finding a lost superweapon jumping randomly around the galaxy is not.
Seb Member	Wed Nov 03 04:28:33 It's a pity because I like a lot of the world building the series is going. I'm intrigued by the clone emperors, and building the robots in from the beginning rather than a list minute retcon makes them much less naff than when azimov did it. The church Vs state politics has potential too. The Anacreons are better realised than the novel. They clearly blew a fortune on production. But I wish they had kept to the rigorous logic/rules of the "magic" driving the plot. Foundation without holding true to the rules of psycohistory is something else entirely. The entire tension in the late second and third novel arises from "what happens if we violate the key assumption".
Seb Member	Wed Nov 03 04:31:13 Also how does salvor know about the crises? The vault hasn't opened and the Terminans think that the seldon plan is a library cum university; not the core of a new empire that will be driven to usurp the first due to a series of crises.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Nov 03 05:11:38 ”about the fate hinging on individuals” Indeed this was a red flag, huge one. I have been in denial to be honest and wanted to give it a chance, but once this boundery is crossed, all bets are off. The math based social science of Psychohistory is indistinguishable from any mystical prophecy. As a stand alone sci fi story, it is pretty ok, but we went in expecting Asimov. The whole Empire storyline pretty good. ”Also how does salvor know about the crises?” I think I heard in some episode that it was predicted by Seldon. It’s part of their religion isn’t it?
Seb Member	Wed Nov 03 05:29:52 Nim: Yeah, it's a bit muddy, but I thought Seldon (and some of the scenes with the encyclopaedia team) was explicit in one scene talking to Gaal that the public story of an encyclopaedia was a front; but sincerely believed by most of the Terminans - the plan is to make an encyclopaedia that will be used to reboot civilisation when it collapses. I don't see how the crises would be relevant to the Encyclopedia plan, and nobody really knows what the deal with the vault is, so until the first vault opening (as in the book) surely nobody but Gaal (who I think was told in a scene) and Seldon should know about them.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Wed Nov 03 05:54:43 Well Salvor did have visions of Seldon and his "murder". So the simplest explanation now that all bets are off is that Seldon's hologram is communicating with her, right?
Seb Member	Wed Nov 03 06:05:42 Oh, so, like the digital ghost thing is instantiated in the vault somehow ... yes that could work.
Seb Member	Wed Nov 03 07:02:34 Though the communication bouy is down. So Hari has super secret tech as well...
Seb Member	Sun Nov 14 16:53:10 So I'm now up to ep 9. We seem to be re-converging. My guess around Gaal and second foundation seems to be panning out: her entire storyline is foreshaddowing the second foundation - and digital ghost Hari has acknowledged that she breaks psychohistory - lightcones means she is now out of the story for a hundred and something years. In the meantime, clone empire story continues to be compelling if entirely off track. However we appear to have broken the three laws of robotics. I guess these will not be playing a part in the story. That's sad. They could have avoided that I think. However, so far, the crisis seems to be very much dependent on singular random events: the invictus jumping around, the outlier status of Sal, and this magic vault thing that can do weird shit and incapacitated everyone on the planet unless someone with weird intuitive luck powers can open Haris's rubik's cube of socio-psychological-economical magic comes along. Very not psycho-historical. Unless of course digital-Hari ghost number 2 turns out to be a recording and that gives an entirely incorrect summary of why he thinks anachreons, thespins and Termnii are all together based on an entirely plausible but incorrect extrapolation of why at time of recording he thought they would all come together, only for it to coincidentally have happened due to a psychic warden and a randomly jumping ghost ship of doom - about two thirds of season 1 was a premise breaking coincidence; revealing Hari and psychohistory to be an irrelevance. But then, maybe that's where they are going: it's all a fraud and all that matters are the not-jedi second foundation who have always been here, since the beginign. Hey ho.
Seb Member	Sun Nov 14 17:23:53 TL:Dr Plot is reconverting on Foundation - with the barbarian empires and terminus forming a federation over the invictus without cheesy "tech priest" stuff (but also the very cool* trade stuff "yeah but we make their washing machines so let's see how they like a trade embargo"). But at the expense of the core intellectual conceit of the thing. If course, arguably Asimov himself broke that in the later novels, but only after properly exploring the core concept and establishing the law, and then exploiting the loophole in a logically consistent way. Instead we are leaping to "a wizard did it". *Cool if you are a policy wonk. "Ha ha industrial strike" is possibly the least popular plot twist in a space opera after "what if Jedi are actually for trade negotiations, oh thank fuck, there's evil sith space wizards so we can have some fun"
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Sun Nov 14 17:48:10 As an adaptation of Asimov, it is horrible, this is basically Disney does Asimov's Foundation, Apple is basically Disney. And honestly this whole first crisis, was really stupid. The action and suspense felt completely meaningless, underwhelming and poorly constructed. I kinda see problems now with Salvor Hardin being a lone ranger type of character instead of a politician. She shouldn't have been the one driving the action and suspense in this way. However as sci fi series with Disney level production value , it is worth watching. I agree with you and find it ironic that the storyline furthest off the source material, the Genetic Dynasty, is the most compelling to watch.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 15 06:56:32 Nim: "I kinda see problems now with Salvor Hardin being a lone ranger type of character instead of a politician. She shouldn't have been the one driving the action and suspense in this way." The expanse dealt with this much better - they should have kept Sal as a Avasarala type figure, and had someone else driving the action and suspense forward. I still (not having seen ep 10 yet) don't understand why they decided to make the resolution to the first crisis so obviously outside the scope of what could be predicted using psychohistory. It would not have taken much to shift it: e.g. rather than randomly jumping legendary ghost ship - replace with hijacking an imperial warship instead. Still not clear - even from a narrative standpoint - why Sal needs to have intuitive powers at all, or why the vault needs to have magic null field. BTW - invictus bridge window reminded me very much of Event Horizon . Intentional shout out? https//www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http%3A%2F%2Freflectionsonfilmandtelevision.blogspot.com%2F2015%2F03%2Ffrom-archive-event-horizon-1997.html&psig=AOvVaw2fyjpiAJEHvf-bQv7z7yIC&ust=1637067322372000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAsQjRxqFwoTCNCCr5W1mvQCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAT
Seb Member	Mon Nov 15 06:56:44 http://www...oTCNCCr5W1mvQCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAT
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Nov 15 10:57:54 "they should have kept Sal as a Avasarala type figure" Yepp :( I still have hopes that it will be what she will evolve into, that this is essentially the start of her journey into the political leader we know from the books. I feel like there is hint of that, like how she does not appreciate the saying "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" and this is one of the famous sayings from the Hardin of the books. There is a hint of her slowly beginning to realize the meaning of that. Hopefully that is were it is going. At this point I think if you are going to keep watching it, you need to start repressing Asimov's Foundation. This is more like an homage to The Foundation and loosely based on it. Not officially, but if we are to salvage the good stuff, we need to forget about the source material to a large degree. So the Imperial story line makes sense, it has twists and suspense that works and makes me want to watch it. The protagonist story lines needs to be rescued desperately. "reminded me very much of Event Horizon" I barely remember that I have watch this movie :/ So, I guess an interesting character yet to be revealed is... dum dum duuuum The Mule! What if The Mule is brother Dawn. I mean they have wrecked the canon, doesn't it make sense at this point? I would do it if I was writing the show under these circumstances :)
Seb Member	Mon Nov 15 13:03:02 Nim: Event Horizon was brilliant! I'm 90% sure there were deliberate intentional references with Invictus. The cruciform window, the fact it's a ghost ship full of corpses of it's crew that turned on each other and that has been outside the galaxy, and a few lines "You can't leave, she won't let you".
Rugian Member	Mon Nov 15 14:13:39 Event Horizon was a cool movie. Fell apart at the end a bit, but the buildup for most of it is great. And even though it takes place in a completely different universe, the whole thing is basically a Warhammer 40k film about a ship that entered the warp without a Gellar field. Fun stuff.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Tue Nov 16 05:53:28 I looked it up and no I have not seen Event Horizon. It has a cult following I read together with terrible ratings. OK I will watch it then :) So in light of the cult status I am inclined to agree that Invictus bridge could definitely be an homage to the movie.
Seb Member	Sun Nov 21 16:43:05 Hmm. So they dragged out back in track with some Deus ex machina. Hari predicted the invictus la la la. It's a plot forced to twist uncomfortably to be consistent with the rules of psycohistory, not fundamentally driven by it.
Seb Member	Sun Nov 21 16:46:35 Oh look everyone's going to be friends even though the Anacreons slaughtered half the population of terminus, who were carefully selected by Hari to be necessary for the future.
Seb Member	Sun Nov 21 16:53:59 Oh bloody hell, Salva has mysterious heritage now. So stupid. It's imposing an individualist heroics on a story that is heavily predicated on all that being irrelevant in the face of collective socio-economic dynamics. You don't need to have the mule anymore.
Seb Member	Sun Nov 21 17:18:01 Last scene - Oh for fucks sakes.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Nov 22 01:31:31 It was terrible, including the whole good bye and ”don’t turn around”, very corny. But the empire storyline keeps getting better.
Seb Member	Mon Nov 22 01:48:09 Nim: The frustrating thing is I think they needlessly fucked up the whole terminus plot line. Don't have the Anacreons go all dothraki on the Termiians, have them occupy the place with the intent of provoking an imperial scout as per previous. Don't have the whole invictus, make it hijacking the first imperial ship, but have it damaged in the process. Have the thespins intervene because they want their own jump ship too. Skip the whole thing about Salvor having visions. You get to the same place with far less fuss and can do it with psycohistory as primary driver. Also the heavy implication is the Seldon plan is about overthrowing the empire, not about filling the gap its collapse leaves.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Nov 22 07:12:16 "You get to the same place with far less fuss" Indeed, even suppressing the fact that this was suppose to be Foundation and it clearly isn't, even as a stand alone sci fi series, the Terminus plot line has so far just gotten worse. It is forced, rushed and ultimately things that take place are meaningless and overly complicated. I know I keep whining about this, but it had some terrible synergy with what are complaining about. The implementation of war and battle, wow. It may have been the worst thing I have seen ever. Did you see the Thespins jump out of their ships abandoning their major tactical leverage? To then get jumped by... an Anacreon ship. As they are ready to kill each other a hologram of a person neither Anacreons nor Thespins have any relation to, emerges and unravels their entire religious creation stories by asserting some stuff and makes everyone forget the terror and massacre and tadaaa we have peace and unity! *shakes head* Not a god damned thing right in there, nothing. With that said, crazy twist in the Empire story, did not see that coming. Whatever they are doing there is working and after this seasons wrap up, the only reason to keep watching the show. I hope they fix stuff in the second season, but the plot may be too far gone...
Seb Member	Mon Nov 22 09:11:15 Nim: Agree - I'm finding the empire plot far far more compelling. I think you are right - season 1 would have been much more compelling if they had got to the vault scene mid way to two thirds of the way through, and then looked at the political fall out of how to make that work in practice. Two or more episodes of tense stalemate: Anachreons have the ship, but can't use it without terminus; Thespins don't want the Anachreon's to have the ship become a long term strategic advantage; terminus doesn't want to get roped into a provocative attack on the empire that will lead to reprisals - have some tense political manoeuvring until the leaders get to the point where they want a compromise with some kind of alliance, but realise their support bases can't support it *then* have the revelation that they have been manipulated into conflict as the means to unlock the compromise. The whole conflict resolution was so simplistic and wildly out of kilter with the very hyper-realistic tone of the rest of the production. They needed to lean into the realism of the politics and individual motivations of Game of Thrones (given this is so very clearly trying to be GoT in Spaaaace).
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Mon Nov 22 11:12:16 "have some tense political manoeuvring until the leaders get to the point where they want a compromise with some kind of alliance" You just wrote a back of a napkin script that would have been many many times better. Honestly it feels like two different writers wrote this season and one of them was much better and that one didn't help the other one. And that is what is so strange, how the hell is the other half of the story so good? The unexpected ways in which the characters have development, the moment you think you know where you have one of the clones or the android they surprise you. I think that is the thing, the clone emperors, ironic enough, were given room to grow, while both Salvor and Gaal have just zoomed around the universe doing absolutely nothing of importance or relevance to how we perceive them. Neither of those characters have developed at all! They could have, if this season was more along the lines of what you wrote. I am a little sad, I keep thinking of what you wrote earlier in the thread, what if J. Michael Straczynski had written this? What if _:,(
Seb Member	Mon Nov 22 13:05:23 On the clone bit, I didn't quite get the ending. The implication is that day and possibly also dusk are also *not* clones, but the fact Day lied and made up a vision after the spiral I took to indicate as confirming that, as a clone, he lacked a soul and humanity. But if he's not a clone, is the implication supposed to be that his lack of soul, his lack of humanity, is nothing to do with his genetics but due to the whole institution? Or is it just confused writing.
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