Utopia Talk - Politics - White supremacy in the US

Welcome to the Utopia Forums! Register a new account
The current time is Fri Apr 26 18:43:25 2024

Utopia Talk / Politics / White supremacy in the US

Habebe
Member Wed Oct 20 23:21:56
Does anyone have links to quality stats about active WS memberships?Funding etc.

Also any data on violent attacks/threats etc. Or anything reasonably considered mass terrorism.

Ive looked around and even most of the articles with experts claiming its a large threat (the largest/most lethal) will say things like but we know almost nothing about them.

Or "well, its hard to quantify the threat in any meaningful way"

Which just sounds like they are guessing or making it up.We have heard all about for like a decade now, and no one can point to solid evidence beyond how they "feel" they are this great threat.

Sam Adams
Member Wed Oct 20 23:33:40
Obviously a pretty minor threat, compared with the other threats out there.

Sam Adams
Member Wed Oct 20 23:36:48
Especially considering half the membership are FBI sting operations probably.

earthpig
GTFO HOer Wed Oct 20 23:40:35
Black folks have been pretty clear that police officer encounters are a very real place that white supremacy is encountered.

So that would be a good place to look.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1098611117732974

"Quality stats about active WS membership, funding, etc" is a red herring. There are no stats about Taliban "membership, funding, etc," but they evidently defeated the United States of America.

Habebe
Member Wed Oct 20 23:46:36
White supremacist extremists in the U.S.: attacks and fatalities, 2000-2016
Published by Statista Research Department, Apr 29, 2019
This statistic shows the number of attacks committed by white supremacist extremists in the United States, as well as the number of fatalities in those attacks, each year from 2000 to 2016. In 2016, there was one incident of a hate crime attack by white supremacists, resulting in one fatality.
Number of attacks and fatalities by white supremacist extremists in the United States from 2000 to 2016

Year. Attacks. Fatalities

2000. 1. 5

2001. 0. 0

2002. 1. 1

2003. 1. 1

2004. 0. 0

2005. 3. 3

2006. 3. 4

2007. 4. 4

2008. 1. 1

2009. 4. 7

2010. 0. 0

2011. 0. 0

2012. 1. 6

2013. 3. 4

2014. 1. 3

2015. 1. 9

2016. 1. 1

http://www...ite-supremacist-extremists-us/

Habebe
Member Wed Oct 20 23:46:37
White supremacist extremists in the U.S.: attacks and fatalities, 2000-2016
Published by Statista Research Department, Apr 29, 2019
This statistic shows the number of attacks committed by white supremacist extremists in the United States, as well as the number of fatalities in those attacks, each year from 2000 to 2016. In 2016, there was one incident of a hate crime attack by white supremacists, resulting in one fatality.
Number of attacks and fatalities by white supremacist extremists in the United States from 2000 to 2016

Year. Attacks. Fatalities

2000. 1. 5

2001. 0. 0

2002. 1. 1

2003. 1. 1

2004. 0. 0

2005. 3. 3

2006. 3. 4

2007. 4. 4

2008. 1. 1

2009. 4. 7

2010. 0. 0

2011. 0. 0

2012. 1. 6

2013. 3. 4

2014. 1. 3

2015. 1. 9

2016. 1. 1

http://www...ite-supremacist-extremists-us/

Habebe
Member Wed Oct 20 23:48:30
Had to type the numbers in manually, the 2nd number is fatalities if it was confusing.

Probably easier to see on the sight.

I'll post sebs CNN link next.Those numbers are rather different from statista.

Habebe
Member Wed Oct 20 23:56:24
Ok couldn't find the CNN article, but here is some 2017 FBI data on hate crimes and those who commit them and what sort of crimes they are.

http://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2017/topic-pages/offenders

Offenders
Law enforcement agencies that reported hate crime data to the Uniform Crime Reporting
(UCR) Program identified 6,370 known offenders in 7,175 bias-motivated incidents in
2017. In the UCR Program, the term known offender does not imply the suspect’s
identity is known; rather, the term indicates some aspect of the suspect was identified,
thus distinguishing the suspect from an unknown offender. Law enforcement agencies
specify the number of offenders and, when possible, the race, ethnicity, and age of the
offender or offenders as a group.
The Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2009, 18
U.S.C. §249, required the FBI to collect data concerning hate crimes committed by or
directed against juveniles. Beginning in 2013, law enforcement began reporting the
number of offenders who are 18 years of age or older and the number of offenders under
the age of 18 in addition to reporting the number of individual offenders. Of the 4,895
individuals for which offender age data were reported in 2017, 4,062 hate crime
offenders were adults, and 833 hate crime offenders were juveniles.
In 2013, the national UCR Program began collecting revised race and ethnicity data in
accordance with a directive from the U.S. Government’s Office of Management and
Budget. The race categories were expanded from four (White, Black, American Indian or
Alaska Native, and Asian or Other Pacific Islander) to five (White, Black or African
American, American Indian or Alaska Native, Asian, and Native Hawaiian or Other
Pacific Islander). The ethnicity categories changed from “Hispanic” and “Non-Hispanic”
to “Hispanic or Latino” and “Not Hispanic or Latino.” (See the Methodology for more
information about this program change as well as others.)
By race, ethnicity, and age (Based on Table 9.)
Race
In 2017, race was reported for 6,370 known hate crime offenders. Of these offenders:

50.7 percent were White.
21.3 percent were Black or African American.
7.5 percent were groups made up of individuals of various races (group of multiple races).
0.8 percent (49 offenders) were American Indian or Alaska Native.
0.7 percent (42 offenders) were Asian.
3 offenders were Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander.
19.1 percent were unknown.
Ethnicity
The ethnicity was reported for 5,131 known hate crime offenders. Of these:

25.0 percent were in the ethnic category Not Hispanic or Latino.
8.8 percent were Hispanic or Latino.
1.6 percent were groups made up of individuals of various ethnicities (group of multiple ethnicities).
64.5 percent were of unknown ethnicity.
Age
Age was reported for 4,895 known hate crime offenders. Of these:

83.0 percent were age 18 and over.
17.0 percent were under age 18.
By crime category (Based on Table 2.)
Crimes against persons
A total of 4,442 known hate crime offenders committed crimes against persons in 2017. Of these offenders:

38.8 percent committed simple assault.
35.7 percent intimidated their victims.
23.7 percent committed aggravated assault.
0.7 percent (30 offenders) raped their victims.
0.3 percent (15 offenders) murdered their victims.
0.7 percent (33 offenders) committed other types of offenses collected only in the UCR Program’s National Incident-Based Reporting System (NIBRS).
Crimes against property
A total of 1,933 known hate crime offenders committed crimes against property in 2017. Of these offenders:

61.1 percent committed destruction/damage/vandalism.
14.9 percent committed robbery.
12.9 percent committed larceny-theft.
5.1 percent committed burglary.
1.8 percent committed arson.
1.3 percent committed motor vehicle theft.
2.9 percent committed other types of offenses, which are collected only in NIBRS.
Crimes against society
In 2017, 284 known offenders committed 238 crimes against society involving 238 victims. Crimes against society are collected only via NIBRS. Crimes against society (e.g., weapon law violations, drug/narcotic offenses, gambling offenses) represent society’s prohibition against engaging in certain types of activity; they are typically victimless crimes in which property is not the object.

earthpig
GTFO HOer Thu Oct 21 00:19:15
Cops of course do not count their own actions as hate crimes, etc.

Trump also got some 12m more votes in 2020 than in 2016. Some of that was due to population growth, and some was because it was easier to vote in 2020 than in 2016, probably the most accessible and fair election we've ever had in 200+ years.

Other than that, there's really no denying that those 12m voters are implicitly at least accepting of white supremacy. Could play dumb in 2016, can't play dumb by November 2020. Suppose 2m was due to population growth and accidental improvements to the voting process due to covid, that means no fewer than 10m white supremacists in the United States. Ballpark proxy measure for a *minimum* number.

Habebe
Member Thu Oct 21 00:25:42
So...Trump voters os tpur wvidence for white supremacy?

Again, these are hunches with numbers just guessed of Trump votes.

Biden/Trump/Obama have probably killed more Americans by accident each year with drone strikes.

Habebe
Member Thu Oct 21 00:25:43
So...Trump voters os tpur wvidence for white supremacy?

Again, these are hunches with numbers just guessed of Trump votes.

Biden/Trump/Obama have probably killed more Americans by accident each year with drone strikes.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Oct 21 05:07:55
"Implicit Association Test"

lol :)

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Oct 21 05:59:38
It's sad that such questionable "measures" are used, here no less as a marker for white supremacy among the police. What that test shows is that the police in that test associate black men with violence. Are there no grounds for doing that without racism? Of course there are, that may not live up to the precision we expect from the police, but the idea that this is a marker for racism, is as dangerous as whatever it is you are trying to dispel. Black men cause 50% of the violence, that implicit bias test is showing awareness of that fact among the police.

Habebe
Member Thu Oct 21 08:41:41
As it stands now WS seems about as much of a threat as Antics.

Fear mongering is not exclusive to the MSNBCs and CNN. Watch Fox or OAN and they will tell an easy similar story

There isn't much evidence that Antifa is the gravest threat, but they can provide anecdotal evidence and hunches.

So lets look at real data.

Habebe
Member Thu Oct 21 10:10:47
Fun fact

The leader of the proud boys, a supposed white supremacist movement, isn't even white, Enrique is hispanic.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Oct 21 10:53:18
White and hispanic are different cateogires though, hispanic is cultural. You can be white or black and hispanic.

Habebe
Member Thu Oct 21 11:11:31
Nimatzo. Yes ots possible.However within the US Hispanic is generally categorized as a race.

Sometimes made distinct by white/Hispanic and non white Hispanic.

There is rarely a distinction made past that. White Hispanic would be from Spain and not mixed with native Americans.

And especially in terms of the leader of the group its important. You would never see a grand wizard of the plan as an ethnic Mexican.

Not to get too down a rabbit hole on the PB but it seems a stretch to call it a WS orginization, I think it was initially started as a joke by an eccentric married to a Native American.

Basically from what I understand they were basically in response to Antifa.

Antifa, much like WS groups are really a loose federation of similar groups under a blanket term.

But I beleive Antifa far out numbers WS groups. But again 95%+ of the people are not out to burn buildings and kill people but are probably mostly angry socialists who work within a group which has a small amount of very extreme terrorists.

Habebe
Member Thu Oct 21 11:18:41
A quick wiki search claims a Miami Herald article that claims Enrique to be of Afro Cuban descent.

Sounds odd to be the leader of a white supremacist orginization.

Habebe
Member Thu Oct 21 11:19:45
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_Tarrio

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Oct 21 11:30:29
Habebe
Actually what I said is how the US census defines it, it is a category regardless of race.

Habebe
Member Thu Oct 21 12:34:23
http://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045219

Not to really argue, but right here the US census says "Race and hispanic origin"

But the only options for Hispanics are Hispanic/Latino or white Hispanic for like Spaniards.

And again, a self identifying. Afro-Cuban Latino doesn't fit with white supremacist classic.

Nor does having a native American wife and bi-racial kids with her.

Habebe
Member Thu Oct 21 12:37:06
I would say in general culture (US) Hispanics are considered/treated as a race.

Like when we talk about race relations the big 3 are blacks, white and Hispanics/Latinos.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Oct 21 13:10:12
http://www...ion/hispanic-origin/about.html

There is the definition according the US census, verbatim what I told you, it’s almost as if I had read it before ;-)

We had a thread about this when they had one of those meeting to decide which other groups if any to include. TL:DR you have an archaic and messy system, that mostly relies on self identification. Supposedly white and black are intrinsic characteristics, hispanic is a de facto aquired one. It is very confusing for you because on most forms ut’s up there together with black/white or hispanic.

I would throw this stuff on the garbage geep of histort. The way people choose to identify is not the business of the state.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Oct 21 13:20:23
I personally find it very strange that the state categorises people according to ambigious categories of highly questionable academic validity. Because there is a claim there at the base that such social constructs as ”race” have academic validity, beyond the mere study of how people identify. They don’t.

But that is another debate! Despite the understandable confusion and misuse among the pleb, hispanic is not a racial category, but an cultural one. I would presume some amount of politics went into having it recognized as a census category. You understand that federal money is doled out on the basis of these categories.

Habebe
Member Thu Oct 21 13:23:55
Yes thats the definition, but it is included alongside races , not in its own category, so its an oddball.But a WS wouldn't consider afro Cubans as white nor Native Americans.....it does get even hairier when some have called the Ainu (N. Japan) as White.

We have had these talks before about race and I think we both agree race is what a culture determines it to be.

American Hispanics/Latin Americans is an entirely unique beast from Euro Hispanics.

More importantly, most Hispanics consider it a part of their racial identity.

But yes it's a category, not a race.However its distinctly different to be white hispanic and non white hispanic.

To clarify then I will re word ot tp say

The creator of TPB is married to a NA with no racial kids.

And the current leader is a non white afro-Cuban Hispanic.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Oct 21 13:26:34
I don’t think it matters in the end. America will go on and make ”hispanic” a race and make things more confusing. These kinds of things eventually solve themselves by increased absurdity. Case in point LGBTQQ+, mixing sexual
preference with sexual identity, even containing identity that is asexual. The ever growing absurd complexity of a system of ideas that has lost the anchor with reality.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha Thu Oct 21 13:30:36
”but it is included alongside races , not in its own category”

What did I say? I said it is a category regardless of race, you can be both a race and hispanic or simply only identify as hispanic. Nobody is controling these things, they are self identified.. I understand the confusion, I also thought it was confusing, but I was right :)

Habebe
Member Thu Oct 21 14:18:09
Yes you are right*, the census definition is that its a category.

It is very confusing.

I made the extra declaration though because it started with me saying Enrique was not white but Hispanic.

To which you pointed out the census doesn't consider it a race like asian , white or black.

So he could have been White Hispanic which is its own seperate division oddly enough when African Hispanic (think Caribbeans) isn't, but can be listed in mixed race.

But Absolutley way more confusing and tedious than it should be.

Anyway back to the true threat and scale of WS to the US.

I think a few things are happening, one the term WS is thrown around as loosely as possible in order to demonize Republicans and Trumpists.

Its not unique, the right does it as well. Any sufficiently large political group is going to attract idiots as well, right? And very often the worst behaviour of these idiots gets cast in anyone else in that group and affiliated groups.

Its why Trump would talk about the Antifa extremists and try to link them to mainstream democrats.

Or how in here you see multiple people basically claim that many or most Trump supporters are either WS or sympathizers...its basically thebsame disengenuous truck IMHO.

kargen
Member Thu Oct 21 17:25:22
Racist attacks are so common minorities are having to fake them to play the victim. Remember this gem from a couple of weeks back?

"Dear Parkway Community,

I wanted to follow up regarding racist graffiti in our bathrooms last week. The investigation at North High is still ongoing. The investigation has concluded at Central High School related to this incident. The evidence led to a single student and the student admitted writing the messages.

The student responsible is not white, however this does not diminish the hurt it caused or the negative impact it has had on our entire community."

Sam Adams
Member Thu Oct 21 17:57:46
Theres almost certainly more anti-white racism in the us than other racism these days.

show deleted posts

Habebe Member	Wed Oct 20 23:21:56 Does anyone have links to quality stats about active WS memberships?Funding etc. Also any data on violent attacks/threats etc. Or anything reasonably considered mass terrorism. Ive looked around and even most of the articles with experts claiming its a large threat (the largest/most lethal) will say things like but we know almost nothing about them. Or "well, its hard to quantify the threat in any meaningful way" Which just sounds like they are guessing or making it up.We have heard all about for like a decade now, and no one can point to solid evidence beyond how they "feel" they are this great threat.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Oct 20 23:33:40 Obviously a pretty minor threat, compared with the other threats out there.
Sam Adams Member	Wed Oct 20 23:36:48 Especially considering half the membership are FBI sting operations probably.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Wed Oct 20 23:40:35 Black folks have been pretty clear that police officer encounters are a very real place that white supremacy is encountered. So that would be a good place to look. http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1098611117732974 "Quality stats about active WS membership, funding, etc" is a red herring. There are no stats about Taliban "membership, funding, etc," but they evidently defeated the United States of America.
Habebe Member	Wed Oct 20 23:46:36 White supremacist extremists in the U.S.: attacks and fatalities, 2000-2016 Published by Statista Research Department, Apr 29, 2019 This statistic shows the number of attacks committed by white supremacist extremists in the United States, as well as the number of fatalities in those attacks, each year from 2000 to 2016. In 2016, there was one incident of a hate crime attack by white supremacists, resulting in one fatality. Number of attacks and fatalities by white supremacist extremists in the United States from 2000 to 2016 Year. Attacks. Fatalities 2000. 1. 5 2001. 0. 0 2002. 1. 1 2003. 1. 1 2004. 0. 0 2005. 3. 3 2006. 3. 4 2007. 4. 4 2008. 1. 1 2009. 4. 7 2010. 0. 0 2011. 0. 0 2012. 1. 6 2013. 3. 4 2014. 1. 3 2015. 1. 9 2016. 1. 1 http://www...ite-supremacist-extremists-us/
Habebe Member	Wed Oct 20 23:46:37 White supremacist extremists in the U.S.: attacks and fatalities, 2000-2016 Published by Statista Research Department, Apr 29, 2019 This statistic shows the number of attacks committed by white supremacist extremists in the United States, as well as the number of fatalities in those attacks, each year from 2000 to 2016. In 2016, there was one incident of a hate crime attack by white supremacists, resulting in one fatality. Number of attacks and fatalities by white supremacist extremists in the United States from 2000 to 2016 Year. Attacks. Fatalities 2000. 1. 5 2001. 0. 0 2002. 1. 1 2003. 1. 1 2004. 0. 0 2005. 3. 3 2006. 3. 4 2007. 4. 4 2008. 1. 1 2009. 4. 7 2010. 0. 0 2011. 0. 0 2012. 1. 6 2013. 3. 4 2014. 1. 3 2015. 1. 9 2016. 1. 1 http://www...ite-supremacist-extremists-us/
Habebe Member	Wed Oct 20 23:48:30 Had to type the numbers in manually, the 2nd number is fatalities if it was confusing. Probably easier to see on the sight. I'll post sebs CNN link next.Those numbers are rather different from statista.
Habebe Member	Wed Oct 20 23:56:24 Ok couldn't find the CNN article, but here is some 2017 FBI data on hate crimes and those who commit them and what sort of crimes they are. http://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2017/topic-pages/offenders Offenders Law enforcement agencies that reported hate crime data to the Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program identified 6,370 known offenders in 7,175 bias-motivated incidents in 2017. In the UCR Program, the term known offender does not imply the suspect’s identity is known; rather, the term indicates some aspect of the suspect was identified, thus distinguishing the suspect from an unknown offender. Law enforcement agencies specify the number of offenders and, when possible, the race, ethnicity, and age of the offender or offenders as a group. The Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2009, 18 U.S.C. §249, required the FBI to collect data concerning hate crimes committed by or directed against juveniles. Beginning in 2013, law enforcement began reporting the number of offenders who are 18 years of age or older and the number of offenders under the age of 18 in addition to reporting the number of individual offenders. Of the 4,895 individuals for which offender age data were reported in 2017, 4,062 hate crime offenders were adults, and 833 hate crime offenders were juveniles. In 2013, the national UCR Program began collecting revised race and ethnicity data in accordance with a directive from the U.S. Government’s Office of Management and Budget. The race categories were expanded from four (White, Black, American Indian or Alaska Native, and Asian or Other Pacific Islander) to five (White, Black or African American, American Indian or Alaska Native, Asian, and Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander). The ethnicity categories changed from “Hispanic” and “Non-Hispanic” to “Hispanic or Latino” and “Not Hispanic or Latino.” (See the Methodology for more information about this program change as well as others.) By race, ethnicity, and age (Based on Table 9.) Race In 2017, race was reported for 6,370 known hate crime offenders. Of these offenders: 50.7 percent were White. 21.3 percent were Black or African American. 7.5 percent were groups made up of individuals of various races (group of multiple races). 0.8 percent (49 offenders) were American Indian or Alaska Native. 0.7 percent (42 offenders) were Asian. 3 offenders were Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander. 19.1 percent were unknown. Ethnicity The ethnicity was reported for 5,131 known hate crime offenders. Of these: 25.0 percent were in the ethnic category Not Hispanic or Latino. 8.8 percent were Hispanic or Latino. 1.6 percent were groups made up of individuals of various ethnicities (group of multiple ethnicities). 64.5 percent were of unknown ethnicity. Age Age was reported for 4,895 known hate crime offenders. Of these: 83.0 percent were age 18 and over. 17.0 percent were under age 18. By crime category (Based on Table 2.) Crimes against persons A total of 4,442 known hate crime offenders committed crimes against persons in 2017. Of these offenders: 38.8 percent committed simple assault. 35.7 percent intimidated their victims. 23.7 percent committed aggravated assault. 0.7 percent (30 offenders) raped their victims. 0.3 percent (15 offenders) murdered their victims. 0.7 percent (33 offenders) committed other types of offenses collected only in the UCR Program’s National Incident-Based Reporting System (NIBRS). Crimes against property A total of 1,933 known hate crime offenders committed crimes against property in 2017. Of these offenders: 61.1 percent committed destruction/damage/vandalism. 14.9 percent committed robbery. 12.9 percent committed larceny-theft. 5.1 percent committed burglary. 1.8 percent committed arson. 1.3 percent committed motor vehicle theft. 2.9 percent committed other types of offenses, which are collected only in NIBRS. Crimes against society In 2017, 284 known offenders committed 238 crimes against society involving 238 victims. Crimes against society are collected only via NIBRS. Crimes against society (e.g., weapon law violations, drug/narcotic offenses, gambling offenses) represent society’s prohibition against engaging in certain types of activity; they are typically victimless crimes in which property is not the object.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Thu Oct 21 00:19:15 Cops of course do not count their own actions as hate crimes, etc. Trump also got some 12m more votes in 2020 than in 2016. Some of that was due to population growth, and some was because it was easier to vote in 2020 than in 2016, probably the most accessible and fair election we've ever had in 200+ years. Other than that, there's really no denying that those 12m voters are implicitly at least accepting of white supremacy. Could play dumb in 2016, can't play dumb by November 2020. Suppose 2m was due to population growth and accidental improvements to the voting process due to covid, that means no fewer than 10m white supremacists in the United States. Ballpark proxy measure for a minimum number.
Habebe Member	Thu Oct 21 00:25:42 So...Trump voters os tpur wvidence for white supremacy? Again, these are hunches with numbers just guessed of Trump votes. Biden/Trump/Obama have probably killed more Americans by accident each year with drone strikes.
Habebe Member	Thu Oct 21 00:25:43 So...Trump voters os tpur wvidence for white supremacy? Again, these are hunches with numbers just guessed of Trump votes. Biden/Trump/Obama have probably killed more Americans by accident each year with drone strikes.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 21 05:07:55 "Implicit Association Test" lol :)
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 21 05:59:38 It's sad that such questionable "measures" are used, here no less as a marker for white supremacy among the police. What that test shows is that the police in that test associate black men with violence. Are there no grounds for doing that without racism? Of course there are, that may not live up to the precision we expect from the police, but the idea that this is a marker for racism, is as dangerous as whatever it is you are trying to dispel. Black men cause 50% of the violence, that implicit bias test is showing awareness of that fact among the police.
Habebe Member	Thu Oct 21 08:41:41 As it stands now WS seems about as much of a threat as Antics. Fear mongering is not exclusive to the MSNBCs and CNN. Watch Fox or OAN and they will tell an easy similar story There isn't much evidence that Antifa is the gravest threat, but they can provide anecdotal evidence and hunches. So lets look at real data.
Habebe Member	Thu Oct 21 10:10:47 Fun fact The leader of the proud boys, a supposed white supremacist movement, isn't even white, Enrique is hispanic.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 21 10:53:18 White and hispanic are different cateogires though, hispanic is cultural. You can be white or black and hispanic.
Habebe Member	Thu Oct 21 11:11:31 Nimatzo. Yes ots possible.However within the US Hispanic is generally categorized as a race. Sometimes made distinct by white/Hispanic and non white Hispanic. There is rarely a distinction made past that. White Hispanic would be from Spain and not mixed with native Americans. And especially in terms of the leader of the group its important. You would never see a grand wizard of the plan as an ethnic Mexican. Not to get too down a rabbit hole on the PB but it seems a stretch to call it a WS orginization, I think it was initially started as a joke by an eccentric married to a Native American. Basically from what I understand they were basically in response to Antifa. Antifa, much like WS groups are really a loose federation of similar groups under a blanket term. But I beleive Antifa far out numbers WS groups. But again 95%+ of the people are not out to burn buildings and kill people but are probably mostly angry socialists who work within a group which has a small amount of very extreme terrorists.
Habebe Member	Thu Oct 21 11:18:41 A quick wiki search claims a Miami Herald article that claims Enrique to be of Afro Cuban descent. Sounds odd to be the leader of a white supremacist orginization.
Habebe Member	Thu Oct 21 11:19:45 http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrique_Tarrio
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 21 11:30:29 Habebe Actually what I said is how the US census defines it, it is a category regardless of race.
Habebe Member	Thu Oct 21 12:34:23 http://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045219 Not to really argue, but right here the US census says "Race and hispanic origin" But the only options for Hispanics are Hispanic/Latino or white Hispanic for like Spaniards. And again, a self identifying. Afro-Cuban Latino doesn't fit with white supremacist classic. Nor does having a native American wife and bi-racial kids with her.
Habebe Member	Thu Oct 21 12:37:06 I would say in general culture (US) Hispanics are considered/treated as a race. Like when we talk about race relations the big 3 are blacks, white and Hispanics/Latinos.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 21 13:10:12 http://www...ion/hispanic-origin/about.html There is the definition according the US census, verbatim what I told you, it’s almost as if I had read it before ;-) We had a thread about this when they had one of those meeting to decide which other groups if any to include. TL:DR you have an archaic and messy system, that mostly relies on self identification. Supposedly white and black are intrinsic characteristics, hispanic is a de facto aquired one. It is very confusing for you because on most forms ut’s up there together with black/white or hispanic. I would throw this stuff on the garbage geep of histort. The way people choose to identify is not the business of the state.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 21 13:20:23 I personally find it very strange that the state categorises people according to ambigious categories of highly questionable academic validity. Because there is a claim there at the base that such social constructs as ”race” have academic validity, beyond the mere study of how people identify. They don’t. But that is another debate! Despite the understandable confusion and misuse among the pleb, hispanic is not a racial category, but an cultural one. I would presume some amount of politics went into having it recognized as a census category. You understand that federal money is doled out on the basis of these categories.
Habebe Member	Thu Oct 21 13:23:55 Yes thats the definition, but it is included alongside races , not in its own category, so its an oddball.But a WS wouldn't consider afro Cubans as white nor Native Americans.....it does get even hairier when some have called the Ainu (N. Japan) as White. We have had these talks before about race and I think we both agree race is what a culture determines it to be. American Hispanics/Latin Americans is an entirely unique beast from Euro Hispanics. More importantly, most Hispanics consider it a part of their racial identity. But yes it's a category, not a race.However its distinctly different to be white hispanic and non white hispanic. To clarify then I will re word ot tp say The creator of TPB is married to a NA with no racial kids. And the current leader is a non white afro-Cuban Hispanic.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 21 13:26:34 I don’t think it matters in the end. America will go on and make ”hispanic” a race and make things more confusing. These kinds of things eventually solve themselves by increased absurdity. Case in point LGBTQQ+, mixing sexual preference with sexual identity, even containing identity that is asexual. The ever growing absurd complexity of a system of ideas that has lost the anchor with reality.
Nimatzo iChihuaha	Thu Oct 21 13:30:36 ”but it is included alongside races , not in its own category” What did I say? I said it is a category regardless of race, you can be both a race and hispanic or simply only identify as hispanic. Nobody is controling these things, they are self identified.. I understand the confusion, I also thought it was confusing, but I was right :)
Habebe Member	Thu Oct 21 14:18:09 Yes you are right*, the census definition is that its a category. It is very confusing. I made the extra declaration though because it started with me saying Enrique was not white but Hispanic. To which you pointed out the census doesn't consider it a race like asian , white or black. So he could have been White Hispanic which is its own seperate division oddly enough when African Hispanic (think Caribbeans) isn't, but can be listed in mixed race. But Absolutley way more confusing and tedious than it should be. Anyway back to the true threat and scale of WS to the US. I think a few things are happening, one the term WS is thrown around as loosely as possible in order to demonize Republicans and Trumpists. Its not unique, the right does it as well. Any sufficiently large political group is going to attract idiots as well, right? And very often the worst behaviour of these idiots gets cast in anyone else in that group and affiliated groups. Its why Trump would talk about the Antifa extremists and try to link them to mainstream democrats. Or how in here you see multiple people basically claim that many or most Trump supporters are either WS or sympathizers...its basically thebsame disengenuous truck IMHO.
kargen Member	Thu Oct 21 17:25:22 Racist attacks are so common minorities are having to fake them to play the victim. Remember this gem from a couple of weeks back? "Dear Parkway Community, I wanted to follow up regarding racist graffiti in our bathrooms last week. The investigation at North High is still ongoing. The investigation has concluded at Central High School related to this incident. The evidence led to a single student and the student admitted writing the messages. The student responsible is not white, however this does not diminish the hurt it caused or the negative impact it has had on our entire community."
Sam Adams Member	Thu Oct 21 17:57:46 Theres almost certainly more anti-white racism in the us than other racism these days.
	show deleted posts

Your Name:
Your Password:
Your Message: