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Utopia Talk / Politics / Saudi bombing kills over 100 civilians
Paramount
Member
Fri Jan 21 08:19:59
Imagine if Russia bombed civilians – the US and the EU would scream so much that they destroyed their vocal cords. And there would be sanctions. But now, it was probably one of America’s allies, Saudi Barbaria, who did it so it’s all good.


More than 100 dead or wounded in Yemen prison attack: ICRC

More than 100 people were killed or wounded in an attack on a Yemeni prison, the International Committee of the Red Cross told AFP on Friday, adding the numbers were rising.

"There are more than 100 killed and injured... the numbers are going up," said Basheer Omar, spokesperson for the ICRC in Yemen, citing hospital figures.

http://afp...en-prison-attack-icrc/a/G38qW6
murder
Member
Fri Jan 21 08:23:16

Did muslims die in the attack?

If so then carry on! :o)

Habebe
Member
Fri Jan 21 08:52:14
Well if Iran didn't start a proxy war...
Paramount
Member
Fri Jan 21 08:56:09
Yeah the Jews shouldn’t have declared war on Germany?

http://www...ea-declares-war-on-germany.png
Paramount
Member
Fri Jan 21 08:57:14
Yemeni prison. Maybe it was full of Saudi prisoners.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Fri Jan 21 09:05:12
Habebe
How did Iran start this conflict?
Habebe
Member
Fri Jan 21 15:17:03
Nimatzo, Ah, our biggest disagreement strikes again.

Basically houthis backed by Iran ousted Yemeni President Hadi, so the Saudis and some Sunni freinds had their own coalition of the willing sort of deal.

Some of this IMHO is spill over from US involvement in the area.Maybe not directly but US policy has left the ME ....well different, some things good, most things more destabilized.

We never should have got rid of Saddaam.
Rugian
Member
Fri Jan 21 15:22:07
Yemen is a highly tribalized country that has suffered from factionalism since its very beginning. The US has nothing to do with that situation, but the Saudis and Iranians are to blame for turning what was previously a strictly local feud into a wider regional proxy war.
Habebe
Member
Fri Jan 21 18:12:35
Rugian, But we were better off with Sadaam. He acted as a buffer against Iran and kept order, through brutal oppression and fear.
Forwyn
Member
Sat Jan 22 12:58:00
Saudis are far more responsible for the situation in Yemen. The Houthi coup was successful. Some faggot sitting in Riyadh whose only force projection is Saudi/US-based has no claim to the country anymore.
murder
Member
Sat Jan 22 13:56:14

I really with the Saudis and Iranians would go at it already. They've been wanting to hate fuck for as long as I can remember.

They need to get it out of their systems so they can move on.

Habebe
Member
Sat Jan 22 13:58:15
Congrats, they can be king of the ashes.

Iran setting up shop in Yemen is clearly a threat to SA. The only people mote hated than the US by Iran may be the Saudis/Israelis.

This is NK level of crazy leadership who just so happens to want nuclear weapons.
Habebe
Member
Sat Jan 22 14:00:30
Murder, SA is likley to be aided by the Sunni coalition and Israel with US logistic support. Now that's how regime change should be done!

Israel may be small, but they are very effective.
Habebe
Member
Sat Jan 22 14:24:32
FYI Saudi coalition denies these accusations.Also 70 not 100 dead from what Ive read.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jan 22 14:44:21
Saudi Arabia has no claims to Yemen.
Rugian
Member
Sat Jan 22 14:46:04
And I'm getting a little sick of these 1 to 1 comparisons.

Between Saudi Arabia and Iran, only one of those countries has directly attacked Yemen, and it isn't Iran.
murder
Member
Sat Jan 22 14:54:24

"Between Saudi Arabia and Iran, only one of those countries has directly attacked Yemen ..."

And the US. ;o)

Habebe
Member
Sat Jan 22 15:30:47
Rugian, Irans Proxies started this thing.
Habebe
Member
Sat Jan 22 15:31:13
And yes Iran has actively attacked US troops/bases.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jan 22 19:51:10
Habebe
"Basically houthis backed by Iran ousted Yemeni President Hadi, so the Saudis and some Sunni freinds had their own coalition of the willing sort of deal."

But this is not Iran starting a proxy war, it is Iran supporting one side in a conflict that has been going on for some time. And as far as different regional powers supporting different Arab tribes in their petty conflicts, this goes back to Roman-Persian times. The by then 1000 year rift among the Arabs of Syria and those of today's Iraq precipitated the first Islamic civil war in the 8th century, when they were under a unified Arab politi!

I wouldn't even blame the USA, sure you stirred the pot and let loose this pent of Arab tribalism, but it was always there as potential conflict. Unless we think the Saddam was going to rule Iraq for ever.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jan 22 20:03:55
"Rugian, Irans Proxies started this thing."

This is bizzare to say the least, given even the recent history of Yemen.

Here Saudi, Iran and USA on the same side against the communists.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemenite_War_of_1972

Once more
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemenite_War_of_1979

Third time and this one together with Jihadis!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yemeni_Civil_War_(1994)

Thinking this shit fest "started" with the Houthi insurgency, it's not really a disagreement "we" are having. It's more a fantasy you are entertaining :) Yepp Iran has supported some Yemni group against another for decades, just like the USA and Saudis have and as the shit fest continued and allegiances changed and groups got destroyed, "suddenly" the US/Saudi unholy covenant and the Iranians were on different sides.
Habebe
Member
Sat Jan 22 23:32:42
"Here Saudi, Iran and USA on the same side against the communists."

And I would again today. Honestly I would ally with ISIS or actual Nazis over Commies. They had a shared enemy.

Yes the entire ME has been a cluster fuck since Roman times. That doesn't mean that this recent event of Iran supporting a group of rebels to change thw regime didn't antagonize the coalition into war. SA doesn't want an Iranian puppet in Yemen like the Russia doesn't want the Ukraine in NATO.

Getting rid of Saddaam sent the Iranian government on an influence grabbing spree as well other factions, it may one day lead to a better outcome, but as of now its still chaos.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Jan 23 14:04:56
"That doesn't mean that this recent event of Iran supporting a group of rebels"

There is no "recent" event that is more significant than the previous event here. That is the flaw in your arbitrary awakening to the reality in Yemen. The problems didn't start when Iran chose to support the Houthis, not in Yemen, nor in the proxy war between Saudi Arabia and Iran.

"SA doesn't want an Iranian puppet in Yemen"

Just military aid, they are only a puppet regime for Saudi propaganda purpose. Iraq is the only real puppet regime of Iran. Iranian support for Yemen isn't even that big! The country is effectively under a blockade. That is the sad part, the Saudis have embellished the connection to explain their own incompetence. Sure the support has increased, but the Houthis defeated the Saudis even before Iranian support became significant. If Iran had engaged itself in Yemen the way it has with Hezbollah in Lebanon, Saudi Arabia would have fallen by now. You have to read the Saudi propaganda in the context of their continued military incompetence everywhere they fought a proxy war with Iran.
Habebe
Member
Sun Jan 23 14:34:36
"There is no "recent" event that is more significant than the previous event here. "

Since the fall of Saddaam Iran has been much more activenin its use of proxies.

Yes there is a long standing history of SA V Iran vying for the dominant role in the region. But having an Iranian puppet regime in Yemen is a direct threat to SA/coalition.Thats a change in circumstances that got SA and freinds to invade, probably to try and get their own puppet regime, im not saying one side has a moral high ground, bit it is what it is.

If Iran hadn't tried to install a puppet regime on SA's border, SA wouldn't have invaded.

"
Just military aid, they are only a puppet regime for Saudi propaganda purpose."

Iran didn't give support out of the goodness of their heart.The US isn't giving weapons to the Ukraine out of the goodness of our heart, their are incentives.



Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Jan 23 14:43:13
”If Iran hadn't tried to install a puppet regime on SA's border, SA wouldn't have invaded.”

There was no ”installation” of any ”puppet” regime. Just military aid. It is what it is, only if we tell it like it is and not just repeat Saudi propaganda.
Habebe
Member
Sun Jan 23 16:04:23
Well I'll admit I don't know what the actual truth is. What I do know is that Iran has supplied military aid to them and Yemen is SA's backyard.

That alone makes it seem reasonable to me that SA had a reasonable fear that Iran would expand its influence.

If they didn't why would they have such a long expensive war?
Habebe
Member
Sun Jan 23 16:54:03
To clarify, I don't know what is merely propaganda and what is the reality nor the parties reasonable perceptions.

The bulk of my news on it is either western media (including wiki) and maybe some Aljazeera. All of those will have their own spin.

If you have some articles you fimd pertinent, that would be cool.

However the amount of aid by Iran seems not very important, thats effected by all sorts of things. How aligned they would be against the Sunni coalition and for Iran/allies and the perception seem to be most apt.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Jan 23 17:29:55
Fair enough. You can imagine without any articles that the truth is not as simple as what western media or Al jazeera reports. I don’t really want to pick a side in this, but therr is a secterian aspect to it. What you call Suadi Arabias backyard is almost 50% shia muslims. The houthis came to power on tye back of grievances narrative of Saudi and Sunni oppression. Iran on some fundamental level sees it a moral duty to help Shias.
Habebe
Member
Sun Jan 23 20:12:39
Al Jazeera is probably very pro Saudi.I think it's from the UAE.

Western media, well its sort of a jumbled mess on the issue.

I meant Saudis backyard as in geographically.

And I get that Iran will feel obligated to help Shows and Saudis will feel obligated to help Sunnis. From my outside view neither seems right or wrong necessarily.

But let me ask you what you think SA's reasoning for keeping up this war. It has to be expensive.

Now comparing Sunni and Shia, my personal opinion and biases would be in support of Monarchy over religious rule but I also have a gut opinion against religious rule in general.

Reasonable people can disagree. But as harsh as the Saudis can be they aren't trying to build nukes, from their point of view I get why they want nukes. Actually Putin gave a talk about it one time discussing NK and Iran's desire for nukes and why western talks are futile, he made alot of sense pointing out Saddaam Hussein as an example.

Now as for news/info where would I even look to get a reasonable take on it? Maybe some scholarly lecture debates?
murder
Member
Sun Jan 23 22:26:55

"And yes Iran has actively attacked US troops/bases."

The Saudis murdered thousands of US citizens on US soil.

Habebe
Member
Mon Jan 24 01:17:43
Murder, Saudi citizens, yes. Not the house of Saud.

Iran is a terrorist nation who through proxies has killed US servicemen and citizens.Even on US soil.

http://www...741/html/CHRG-112hhrg73741.htm
Habebe
Member
Mon Jan 24 01:18:24
Not to mention their desire for nukes, a sentiment not shared by the house of Saud.
murder
Member
Mon Jan 24 05:20:48

"Murder, Saudi citizens, yes. Not the house of Saud."

No, the house of Saud did. They've been sponsoring these terrorists for decades.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jan 24 06:12:08
"biases would be in support of Monarchy over religious rule"

Your definition of these concepts in the context of Saudi Arabia and Iran are not reflective of a reality that you would find very satisfactory and easy to digest. Saudi Arabia is a totalitarian monarchy who with a monolithic cultural foundation in the religion of Islam, a very specific and orthodox brand of it. Iran is a walled garden (with religious barbed wires) pseudo democracy with a diverse but suppressed cultural sphere. It matters because "freedom and liberty" need to be fueled by people and ideas from the cultural sphere and there is no fuel to kindle the fire of liberty in Saudi Arabia.

"USA is a terrorist nation who through proxies has killed Iranian servicemen and citizens. Even on Iranian soil."

The point with this is that you probably need to think about these things you say and the words you use, where they come from and if they really capture the nuance and complexity in a situation you say you don't really know what the truth is.


"Now as for news/info where would I even look to get a reasonable take on it? Maybe some scholarly lecture debates?"

I honestly do not think this is the problem, but even Al Jazeera ran fairly balanced debates on the matter.

Ironically Jamal Khashoggi is the one defending Saudi Arabia here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-zKosnk2XY

There have been a steady escalation between Saudi Arabia and Iran in a tit for tat exchange since the early days of the revolution when Iranian Islamists started talking about deposing the authocratic dictators in place of Islamic republics all over the region. Now, it may not be the republic of your taste, but you should be able to identify with the sentiment in your own cultural context that deposed of a monarch. Iranians have more liberty and freedoms than Saudis, this is just a fact. If we are betting on a horse in a race for liberty and democracy, the race favorite is clear.
Habebe
Member
Mon Jan 24 06:54:29
"Your definition of these concepts in the context of Saudi Arabia and Iran are not reflective of a reality that you would find very satisfactory and easy to digest."

Perhaps. I view Saudia Arabia as a nation forged in the pact between Islamic forces and the Monarchy.

I see Iran as a religious dictatorship that has minimal democratic institutions.


" It matters because "freedom and liberty" need to be fueled by people and ideas from the cultural sphere and there is no fuel to kindle the fire of liberty in Saudi Arabia."

I realize SA is not democratic/Republic in any way shape or form.

Its not my twist, but it seems to work for them and they are ok to let the west be what it is.

Iran has a much more complicated relationship with the west. They are less content with us being us.

There crimes get skewed because they use proxies, just because you order a hit makes you no less of a murderer.

I agree that a terrorist is in the eye of the beholder. I even agree the US haa committed acts of "High class terrorism", a term I am now coining.

But given the US's defining moment with Iran is when they held US citizens hostage at an embassy, which government comes off more terroristy?

These were not enemy combatants, many were students.



Habebe
Member
Mon Jan 24 07:05:56
They even celebrate the taking of student hostages to this day!
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jan 24 07:13:11
"Perhaps. I view Saudia Arabia as a nation forged in the pact between Islamic forces and the Monarchy."

There is a name for that, medieval feudal state.

"but it seems to work for them"

That is very vague. Not a lot of public opinion polls or stats makes it out of Saudi Arabia. For all its flaws, Iran it not hermetically sealed the way Saudi is. We can to some degree reliably measure the discontent and how much it isn't working.

"They are less content with us being us."

I suggest you read up on the last 100 years of Iranian history and freshen up on the reasons behind Iranian discontent with the west.

"These were not enemy combatants, many were students."

You know that the US embassy in Iran was instrumental in the CIA orchestrated 1953 coup?

http://nsa...cal-involvement-1953-coup-iran

There were rational reasons behind, a preemptive strike you could call it. It was not obvious to people at the time, that the USA was cutting the Shah loose. If you use a diplomatic mission to conduct clandestine military operations you can't really complain when said mission is treated as a national security threat. Shit begets shit.
Habebe
Member
Mon Jan 24 07:36:31
"I suggest you read up on the last 100 years of Iranian history and freshen up on the reasons behind Iranian discontent with the west."

Im well aware of Britain's oil excursions and so forth.

The bribing of officials in 53 was not why they took hostages almost 30 years later. We let an old man seek medical care for his cancer, their response was to take students hostage at gun point.

I'm not excusing the US's role in pissing off Iranians. Im pissed off that the DNC led a shadow campaign to legally* rig the election in Bidens favor.

But I don't think taking students hostage is an appropriate response.
Habebe
Member
Mon Jan 24 07:42:30
And then celebrate my hoatage taking.

You have to admit, thats weird.
Habebe
Member
Mon Jan 24 08:01:04
Also, speaking of Feudalism, didn't the Shah end it in iran?
Habebe
Member
Mon Jan 24 08:14:10
Let me ask You this, do you think the Shah or Kohmeini was the lesser of two evils?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jan 24 08:22:26
"The bribing of officials in 53 was not why they took hostages almost 30 years later. We let an old man seek medical care for his cancer, their response was to take students hostage at gun point"

You can read about the chain of events that lead up to it and the very real fear that people had about a repeat of the past. Rumours where spreading like fire in Iran, that a coup was imminent. People tried to take over the embassy twice before they actually did. It was not sanctioned by Khomeini, but the people in power were shocked at how popular it was with the people and used it as tool. You have no idea how hated the USA was in the Iranian general population at the time, shit had been cooking for over *30 years*.

This is the problem you have a discombobulated understanding of things, hence why "almost 30 years later" is somehow significant for you. You see the USA orchestrated a coup in 1953 and then nothing happend for 30 years until BOOM out of nowhere they stormed the embassy and took innocent students as hostages :)

I can't explain things that you can easily figure out for yourself, the problem is not that you lack access to resources and information. What do you think it is?

"But I don't think taking students hostage is an appropriate response."

It is even less appropriate to orchestrate coups from embassies or elsewhere. What is that, if not taking an entire nation hostage?

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jan 24 08:27:38
"Also, speaking of Feudalism, didn't the Shah end it in iran?"

As it related to land ownership yes, but I was talking about Saudi Arabia in 2022 and not with regards to the ownership of land, but the governance structure.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jan 24 08:33:34
"Habebe
Member Mon Jan 24 08:14:10
Let me ask You this, do you think the Shah or Kohmeini was the lesser of two evils?"

I have previously voiced opposition the lesser of two evils approach, as it is never a singular event, but a continuous cycle of choosing between lesser evils. I rather have the evil and fight it than rationalize the evil piecemeal and one day wake up realizing the pot is boiling and the frogs are dead.
Habebe
Member
Mon Jan 24 08:36:26
Two wrongs don't make a right.

The CIA has a bad habit of supporting coups and violent oppressive regimes if they are the lesser of two evils.

People have the right to be angry, they don't have the right to celebrate taking student hostages and celebrating it.

The Saudis are also the lesser of two evils. Yes they are a brutally oppressive regime, but they are not exporting their violence.

Yes you could argue they did in Yemen....after their nemesis supported a coup, or as you put took an entire nation hostage.
Habebe
Member
Mon Jan 24 08:39:42
I think its Naive to dismiss the lesser of two evils approach.

Yes it would be great to have perfect regimes, in a perfect world, but it's not the reality.We play the hands were dealt.
Habebe
Member
Mon Jan 24 08:41:23
I'll be back later, I have to clean up for my license photo.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jan 24 08:53:06
"Two wrongs don't make a right."

This is perhaps something you say to children that are fighting, it does not really fit into geopolitics, "real politik" and the enemy of my enemy stuff you like to talk about.

"People have the right to be angry, they don't have the right to celebrate taking student hostages and celebrating it."

Your country gave a medal to a navy commander that shot down a civilian airliner. Whatever it is that you think Iran has done, that offends your cultural and political sensibilities, your country has done worse.

"but they are not exporting their violence."

lol

"I think its Naive to dismiss the lesser of two evils approach."

"Yes you could argue they did in Yemen"

Caucausus, Bosnia, Syrian, Aghanistan, Iraq, Libya. It piggiebacks on the wahabis state relgion that they try to spread. They can't get rid of it, since it is an integral part of their identity.

This is not an argument it's commentary.

"We play the hands were dealt."

Indeed, but the "play" involves more actions than the false binary you assert.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jan 24 09:00:30
I erased this response by mistake.

"I think its Naive to dismiss the lesser of two evils approach."

This is not an argument. It is illogical to think that the lesser of two evils doesn't lead to evil. This is frankly the useful idiot approach to politics. These guys are the lesser of two evils let us support them and then we can reign them in. All those people are executed when the "lesser" evil has consolidated power.
Habebe
Member
Mon Jan 24 10:06:44
"This is perhaps something you say to children that are fighting, it does not really fit into geopolitics, "real politik" and the enemy of my enemy stuff you like to talk about."

It's apt.

"Your country gave a medal to a navy commander that shot down a civilian airliner. Whatever it is that you think Iran has done, that offends your cultural and political sensibilities, your country has done worse."

Im unaware of the context of said medal.

My nation has done terrible things. But doom ourselves? No. And my nation has also done MANY great things. The Ayatollah has not.They have sent children to suicide themselves...pretty tough to beat that. Now we have had that talk before, they fought with what they had.Doesnt make it any less evil.

Most of SA's humam rights abuses stay right in SA. Iran seeks an empire through terrorism, kidnapping and religious fundamentalism.

As for evil, show me what nation is without evil. Sweden has done evil things, but its the lesser of two evils compared to NK.

I expect progress, not perfection.


Ps. Did my hairs all up, I look like a fucking Viking.
Habebe
Member
Mon Jan 24 10:21:31
I also want to double down that when I say Iran, I really mean the regime only.

I would think you would be against the regime as well. Admittedly I only know one Iranian family in person, they own a landscaping/ nursery in Bucks county.

Those folks hated the revolution more than I could. A nation with such potential turned into an impoverished backwards theocracy.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Jan 24 11:57:37
"Im unaware of the context of said medal."

Well you are not really aware of many things that provide any context to anything we are talking about. It strikes me that you probably just woke up one day and saw some people on the TV that look like Aladdin's uncle yelling "death to America".

"They have sent children to suicide themselves"

I'm unaware of the context of said attacks and I have spent some effort on getting to primary sources while reading Iranian history. Nothing that will help you I am afraid.

"Most of SA's humam rights abuses stay right in SA."

This is just patently false as evident by the export of Jiahdist ideology. The government of Saudi Arabia are helpless in stopping the extremism that is embedded in their own creed. They have no theological authority which is compounded by the decentralized nature of Sunni Islam. You keep bringing up the government of Saudi Arabia and I keep telling you that the problems (and opportunities) are much bigger and run deeper than the governments of respective countries.

"Sweden has done evil things, but its the lesser of two evils compared to NK."

Sigh... you are abusing the word "evil" the way people abuse the word "racists". Better to stick with the topics instead of lazy, emotive and difficult to define words that force us into binary thinking.
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