Utopia Talk / Politics / Thanks Fox News! #1 - "Liberal"

earthpig GTFO HOer	Fri Jul 01 15:58:42 Article: http://www...kgMcDC_oyW5FP0F9zCX6og1O-OPOPo Headline: "High gas prices worth it for 'future of liberal world order,’ White House economics adviser tells CNN" A few of my dumbass friends, who all have in common that they didn't go to college, and think the word "liberal" only has a domestic policy definition and is basically synonymous with "democrat," are taking away from that headline that "Biden's" support for Ukraine in it's defensive war with Russia is about spreading LGBT rights, green power, and abortion. Not once does Fox News inform it's dumbass readers that in international relations contexts, liberal means something completely different. You can also read it in the comments below, where they are debating electric cars and solar panels. Thanks to Fox News, these idiots think Russia's war in Ukraine is a conspiracy to make them buy hybrids and Teslas.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Fri Jul 01 16:04:30 We all have our little circle jerk of like minded friends on social media for our echo chambers, I also happen to have a bunch of mostly conservative former Marines, and if nothing else the Marine Corps attracts a talent pool that is quite intellectually... diverse. Especially the infantry, where some portion had no choice but to go into the infantry due to low ASVAB (proxy IQ test) scores, and the others are a bunch of nerds that scored sufficiently high that they could have done anything, but wanted to be grunts in an attempt, doomed to failure in many respects, to not be nerds any more. This series will be my "but where are they now, when it comes to current events?" The one guy is particularly egregious, he self-identifies as a libertarian, never went to college, and has a job at the VA overseeing claims. More or less he's a social worker doling out gov't welfare, who has never had a private sector job in his life. But he *identifies as* a libertarian. Which I guess if I'm being intellectually consistent as a lefty, I have to *honor* his chosen identifiers, ok, so be it, that's a version of what it means to be a libertarian. :P
Pillz Member	Fri Jul 01 16:06:45 Is this bait or are you stupid enough not to realize that 'liberal democracy' no longer exists as we knew it? Liberal democracies now have to have progressive LGBTQY35Hh*+ rights, open borders, late term abortion, decriminalization of all drugs, etc Like, maybe you have missed the past decade of Europe's war on nuclear power, while subsidizing green alternatives, and their ignoral of Russia's threats over LNG? Maybe this isn't bait. You're actually this stupid, and lack the ability to contextualize multiple disparate events over several years or decades. FOX might not be doing a good job at clarifying details, but the jist is correct.
tumbleweed the wanderer	Fri Jul 01 16:08:21 "Kayleigh McEnany slams Biden official's remark on 'liberal world order': 'They're admitting it's intentional'" ~ different Fox headline/article ----- "Americans are not here to fund "Liberal World Order."" ~ Rep Andy Biggs (Trump loyalist) -------- "We will not be paying for Biden’s liberal world order." ~ Rep Marjie The Greene -------- "The White House openly stated that you’re just going to have to pay more in gas so that they can hold the “liberal world order” together and it barely registers as breaking news. They’re telling you EVERYTHING they plan to do and most don’t even care. WAKE UP!" ~ Rep Lauren Boebert (western Marjie) ----------- "We must defeat this Liberal World Order." ~ Richard Grenell (piece of shit from Trump admin)
nhill Member	Fri Jul 01 16:09:13 Liberal democracy is a form of government. It is a representative democracy in which the ability of the elected representatives to exercise decision-making power is subject to the rule of law, and usually moderated by a constitution that emphasizes the protection of the rights and freedoms of individuals, and which places constraints on the leaders and on the extent to which the will of the majority can be exercised against the rights of minorities. The rights and freedoms protected by the constitutions of liberal democracies are varied, but they usually include most of the following: rights to due process, privacy, property and equality before the law, and freedoms of speech, assembly and religion. In liberal democracies these rights (also known as "liberal rights") may sometimes be constitutionally guaranteed, or are otherwise created by statutory law or case law, which may in turn empower various civil institutions to administer or enforce these rights. Liberal democracies also tend to be characterized by tolerance and pluralism; widely differing social and political views, even those viewed as extreme or fringe, are permitted to co-exist and compete for political power on a democratic basis. Liberal democracies periodically hold elections where groups with differing political views have the opportunity to achieve political power. In practice, these elections are nearly always won by groups who support liberal democracy; thus the system perpetuates itself. The term "liberal" in "liberal democracy" does not imply that the government of such a democracy must follow the political ideology of liberalism. It is merely a reference to the fact that the initial framework for modern liberal democracy was created during the Age of Enlightenment by philosophers advocating liberty. They emphasized the right of the individual to have immunity from the arbitrary exercise of authority. At present, there are numerous different political ideologies that support liberal democracy. Examples include conservatism, Christian Democracy, social democracy and some forms of socialism. A liberal democracy may take the form of a constitutional republic or a constitutional monarchy.
Pillz Member	Fri Jul 01 16:13:20 "Liberal democracies also tend to be characterized by tolerance and pluralism; widely differing social and political views, even those viewed as extreme or fringe, are permitted to co-exist and compete for political power on a democratic basis." No longer holds true because this " The term "liberal" in "liberal democracy" does not imply that the government of such a democracy must follow the political ideology of liberalism." Has changed.
Habebe Member	Fri Jul 01 16:15:41 He should have known "liberal world order" was a loaded term. Like I get what he meant. I think most do. Not sure what paying insanely high gas prices and sending billions to some random nation we don't trade with or have an alliance with does to support a liberal/democratic world order. It doesn't seem to even be hurting Russia.
nhill Member	Fri Jul 01 16:26:57 Pillz, I agree, I think. I'm not very sophisticated in politics. I meant to say this at the bottom, but the definition above was from Wikipedia's 2007 definition (before all this culture war stuff). I wanted to post it to see if we're all on the same page.
nhill Member	Fri Jul 01 16:28:34 Just like with words, I prefer to use old dictionaries and definitions because stuff has gotten so muddy in the past decade. *pats his trusty 1909 Webster's American Dictionary*
earthpig GTFO HOer	Fri Jul 01 16:34:46 Jesus, Pillz and Nhill. You too never went to college, huh? Liberalism in international relations has little to do with LGBTQ+ or abortion or green energy. In fact, Ukraine would be a shitty country to support if it did. "Support Ukraine to promote LGBT!" would be like "Support the UK to promote yummy food!" Here you are: http://en....lism_(international_relations) Republicans Eisenhower and Bush Sr being examples of liberals in this context. Probably Reagan too, though up for debate.
nhill Member	Fri Jul 01 16:38:35 I'm not sure what you mean by that. I posted a definition, but I get the feeling you are trying to be sarcastic here?
earthpig GTFO HOer	Fri Jul 01 16:39:55 " He should have known "liberal world order" was a loaded term. " I find it implausible that he was intentionally giving fodder to the Trumpers and folks that didn't go to college or slept through it, but you're probably right, at this point, if garnering swing or Republican votes is necessary, I guess they need to speak at a 7th grade level. I hadn't come across those unintentionally ironic quotes. Should have said "free world order," and let the international relations scholars auto-translate from middle schooler into "liberal world order."
earthpig GTFO HOer	Fri Jul 01 16:44:02 " I'm not sure what you mean by that. I posted a definition, but I get the feeling you are trying to be sarcastic here? " When someone is talking about liberalism when it comes to war, peace, foreign policy, proxy wars, etc, they are (unless a Fox News journalist, or someone influenced by one) referring to what's described in that wikipedia article. See for example every single google search result here: http://sch...ralism+international+relations You can also search for "liberal world order" directly, and see that they are not talking about solar panels or abortion, they are talking about international power politics.
nhill Member	Fri Jul 01 16:44:11 Using the term "world order" is peak retarded, period.
nhill Member	Fri Jul 01 16:45:44 In international relations, the liberal international order describes a set of global, rule-based, structured relationships based on political liberalism, economic liberalism and liberal internationalism since the late 1940s.[1] More specifically, it entails international cooperation through multilateral institutions (like the United Nations, World Trade Organization and International Monetary Fund) and is constituted by human equality (freedom, rule of law and human rights), open markets, security cooperation, promotion of liberal democracy, and monetary cooperation.[1][2][3] The order was established in the aftermath of World War II, led in large part by the United States.[1][4] ^is that what you mean, EP?
Pillz Member	Fri Jul 01 16:53:33 What the dictionary definition of liberal democracy means and what it means in the context of modern geopolitics and policy are not the same earthpig. Youre being semantic about something and missing the entire debate as a result. Maybe you should have spent more time in school, particularly in a field that dealt with something 'Liberal', and you'd have the skills think critically and form full thoughts that aren't pulled from a dictionary.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Fri Jul 01 16:56:26 Yes, that is obviously what anyone who has been to college means when they refer to liberal world order, liberal norms, liberal markets, liberal institutions, etc. The other side are the realists (who are not all, or only, Republicans) ~~ http://en....lism_(international_relations) Democrats that have done things that one might argue are realist, or at least very anti-liberal, include Lyndon Johnson, FDR, and Obama.
nhill Member	Fri Jul 01 16:58:05 What does college have to do with it lol. I have more degrees than you'll ever have, but it was all engineering. What a weird condescending person you are sometimes.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Fri Jul 01 16:59:10 My previous post to this one was in response to nhill's "^is that what you mean, EP?" I'm starting to learn that what I thought was common understanding is not a common understanding, so take my tone in this thread down a tone. Replace with mild disappointment.
nhill Member	Fri Jul 01 16:59:16 The last politics class I took was in high school, and, like any academic field where all you have to do is regurgitate stuff you've read, I didn't find it very interesting.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Fri Jul 01 17:07:30 "What does college have to do with it lol." You took a college level introduction to politics class as an undergrad, which would have has an international relations portion, which in turn would have covered the two prevailing major schools of thought on international relations (wishy washy team player consensus building do gooders, called liberals, and meanie head big bullies who only play nicely with others when it's in their interests, called realists). As an engineer, if you saw that I had read a math equation, and responded with "+ sign means good, and the - sign means bad," I'm certain you would have a certain response. That's me reading the early responses in this thread (in UP, where I thought I would find some safe haven) talking about LGBTQ and abortions. If perhaps you quickly came to learn that it wasn't just me or a few silly people, but lots of people, perhaps even a majority of your countrymen, thought that the plus sign in math contexts implied "good," and the minus sign in math contexts meant "bad"... that's about where I am at. And because of how far I've travelled in this thread, please consider my earlier posts in said thread to be taken down a notch. I'm no longer feeling arrogant, but sad.
Pillz Member	Fri Jul 01 17:10:34 "Yes, that is obviously what anyone who has been to college means when they refer to liberal world order, liberal norms, liberal markets, liberal institutions, etc." No, that is a thing they mean when they use it. It is the classical definition. It no longer means that, or at least, the scope of what liberal democracy means as been changed to include social liberalism by default. You see this constantly in media by talking heads, you see this used against central and Eastern European 'Liberal democracies' that don't follow western progressivism. Youre being intentionally obtuse, and going to college doesn't make much difference on a person's understanding or knowledge of the meaning of liberal democracy or the ability to contextual policy decisions and statements by politicians. Unfortunately you have fallen into the all to common trap of going to school to learn a trade and thinking you learnt anything else. Many people in your position have the brain cells to rub together and comprehend these concepts, they already posses or develop critical thinking skills. Unfortunately you picked not only the wrong academic route to develop those particular skills, but apparently your years in the marines taking it up the ass in the desert have not been kind to your cognitive abilities.
nhill Member	Fri Jul 01 17:11:12 It's strange that you assume I was confused about the concepts when all I did was post the definitions of the two competing ones to make sure we're all on the same page. But whatever gives you a sense of intellectual superiority. *shrug*
nhill Member	Fri Jul 01 17:12:18 >You took a college level introduction to politics class as an undergrad You have this habit of making long posts on faulty assumptions. I can't get past your first sentence because it's incorrect.
earthpig GTFO HOer	Fri Jul 01 17:38:56 @pillz - I've conceded that I wasn't sufficiently nice in my early posts in this thread. There's no "media head talking points" distortion going on here, and domestic policy issues are simply not *particularly* relevant. South Korea was part of the liberal world order when it was an authoritarian dictatorship. LGBTQ rights and solar panels are not requirements to join NATO (though some amount of capitalism is). No abortions or solar panels or LGBTQ are to be found --> http://imgur.com/a/AHMYGNG Instead, you see words like: - internationalism - imperialism - institutions - hegemonic order - world trade - rules based system I'm not being obtuse, pick a result with a PDF that isn't behind a paywall and read it. Liberal (domestic American politics) is distinct from Liberal (international relations). That's why we have all these liberal republicans, and realist democrats, in neither case does that mean "middle of the road," since as we all know you can be a "liberal at home, imperialist (realist) abroad." Stump. Has multiple definitions (see what I did there). Part of a tree, and a lack of understanding, are very distinct things, though they presumably had a common root (see what I did there) some hundreds of years ago.
Habebe Member	Sat Jul 02 03:04:19 EP,Take it as you will, its dumb to think that wouldn't be politislcized in this environment. But sure all Republicans are retarded hill billed if it makes you feel better. Plus he isn't supporting liberal ideals in his conversation.
LazyCommunist Member	Sat Jul 02 03:49:24 We will us it in our propaganda for at least 2 years, thank you very much for making our life so easy^^
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