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Utopia Talk / Politics / UK government imploding
Peter Walsh
Member
Tue Jul 05 12:54:23
http://www...ises-appointing-sleaze-MP.html

Is this finally the end for Boris? Rishi Sunak and Sajid Javid QUIT with savage attack on Johnson's 'lack of integrity', competence and leadership - as embattled PM returns to Downing Street amid threat of more resignations TONIGHT

Boris Johnson is teetering on the brink tonight as Rishi Sunak and Sajid Javid both dramatically quit his Cabinet within minutes of each other.

The Chancellor and Health Secretary dropped their bombshells on the PM shortly after he issued a grovelling apology over his appointment of shamed MP Chris Pincher.

In his resignation letter, Mr Sunak told the PM that 'we cannot continue like this'.


Acknowledging that he might be waving goodbye to his ministerial career for good, he added: 'The public rightly expect Government to be conducted properly, competently and seriously.

'I recognise this may be my last ministerial job, but I believe these standards are worth fighting for and that is why I am resigning.'

Meanwhile, Mr Javid publicly questioned Mr Johnson's integrity, competence and ability to act in the national interest.

He told the PM: 'It is with enormous regret that I must tell you that I can no longer, in good conscience, continue serving in this Government.

'I am instinctively a team player but the British people also rightly expect integrity from their Government.'

It appeared Mr Sunak and Mr Javid had heeded calls from Tory rebel MPs - who had been demanding action from Cabinet ministers over the latest sleaze scandal battering Mr Johnson's Government.

Their double resignation sparked feverish speculation that other members of the Cabinet might soon follow suit in quitting Mr Johnson's Government.

But Deputy PM Dominic Raab, Defence Secretary Ben Wallace and Home Secretary Priti Patel were all said to be staying in Cabinet.

Just moments before tonight's drama unfolded, the PM acknowledged he should have sacked Mr Pincher when he was told about the claims against him when he was a Foreign Office minister in 2019, but instead Mr Johnson went on to appoint him to other government roles.

Asked if that was an error, the PM said: 'I think it was a mistake and I apologise for it. In hindsight it was the wrong thing to do.

'I apologise to everybody who has been badly affected by it. I want to make absolutely clear that there’s no place in this Government for anybody who is predatory or who abuses their position of power.'
Peter Walsh
Member
Tue Jul 05 12:54:48
Boris has survived dozens of scandals, but this looks like the tipping point
murder
Member
Tue Jul 05 13:28:16

Nah. He's already survived his vote of confidence, and you clearly can't shame him so ...

Seb
Member
Tue Jul 05 13:47:26
They'll have to change the rules and no confidence him again.

They'll literally need to drag him from the building.
murder
Member
Tue Jul 05 14:25:53

Moving that much dead weight is even harder than you'd think.

Peter Walsh
Member
Wed Jul 06 11:24:23
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-62048657

Nadhim Zahawi, who only yesterday accepted the role of chancellor after Rishi Sunak resigned, is among the delegation that is set to tell Boris Johnson to resign, the BBC understands.
Seb
Member
Wed Jul 06 11:35:20
9 hours and 45minutes to be precise
Seb
Member
Wed Jul 06 13:56:42
God this is getting embarrassing now.

He's having the weekly audience with the crown by phone between meetings with ministers telling him the game is up.

swordtail
Anarchist Prime
Wed Jul 06 14:07:18
hope this doesn't negatively affect the nazis in ukraine,cause like of all the winning they've been doing against the ruskies recently,thanks to bojo's leadership and support!
Peter Walsh
Member
Thu Jul 07 05:30:27
He's agreed to go after speaking to the committe who were probably going to change the rules to get rid of him
Peter Walsh
Member
Thu Jul 07 05:58:09
He wants to stay until autumn but will resign as tory leader today
Average Ameriacn
Member
Thu Jul 07 06:59:06
He insulted Trump several times, now Trump cancelled him!
williamthebastard
Member
Thu Jul 07 08:53:01
He forgot to seriously bully everyone in his party from day one, like Trump.

Nimatzo
Member Thu Jul 07 07:03:09

I am a kung fu master and I am going to kung fu your fat moms fucking pussy and postmodernize her anus you fucking fuck fucker
(Pre-posting his next post to move things on)
williamthebastard
Member
Thu Jul 07 08:58:08
seb, thumb on the pulse of the nation: is there any chance this could affect Brexit?
murder
Member
Thu Jul 07 10:06:49

All the same stupid people are still stupid, so I'm going to say no. :o)

williamthebastard
Member
Thu Jul 07 10:22:40
Well, I dont know, but I think the UK fishermen have changed their minds on Brexit, and they were one of the main poster names during the Brexit campaign
williamthebastard
Member
Thu Jul 07 10:25:12
Me and my brother who lives in London actually lost contact with each other over Brexit, so i cant ask him :p
Habebe
Member
Thu Jul 07 10:52:32
How did you lose contact over Brexit?
Seb
Member
Thu Jul 07 10:54:33
WtB:

It could make things worse.

The conservative leadership candidates will likely end up in a bidding war of escalation over NI and other issues I should think.

There may be an attempt at a resurgence of tory moderates but they got purged it may not be possible.

No way will there be a shift from the conservatives towards closer alignment with the single market.

The most you can hope for is a cessation of threats to blow up the NI protocol. But that is all. And it can go the other way.


Seb
Member
Thu Jul 07 10:55:06
Habebe:

Many people have lost contact with family members over Brexit.
williamthebastard
Member
Thu Jul 07 11:06:55
Its become Tory dogma, has it
williamthebastard
Member
Thu Jul 07 11:08:40
I was reading about a bunch of scientific collaborations with the EU that are all getting shelved over NI
Seb
Member
Thu Jul 07 11:09:12
WtB:

Brexit means brexit.

Even Labour right now cannot say "rejoin the single market" - they have to propose things like a vetinary agreement.
williamthebastard
Member
Thu Jul 07 11:16:47
I suppose, like many Trumpers, admitting you were wrong would be, like "Wait, if I was wrong, that means Ive behaved shockingly badly", and rather than swallow that bitter pill its easier to dig down as hard as you can
Seb
Member
Thu Jul 07 11:20:54
WtB:

Nah, not NI really.

The French and others always opposed it, so they are using NI as an excuse, but I'm pretty sure the intent was always to do everything to cut us out of the horizon programme.

And the NI protocol (despite mishandling by the govt) is a good example of EU over-reach and shambolic approach.

You can't take a position that equates customs controls in Ireland as violating the republican community in NI's right to identity but that customs controls in the north sea don't impact the unionists.

I was quite close to the negotiations and it was clear all along once May conceded the point of "no land border" expecting good faith efforts to minimise the impact of a sea border, the EC pocketed it and started using the threat of a hard sea border to try and secure dynamic alignment for GB-UK trade to reduce the risk of EU exporters to UK losing market share to third countries.

Boris, essentially, called their bluff on that point - and the agreement was supposed to be to work on the basis of goods posing a high risk to the SM integrity - but the EC has essentially defined nearly everything as high risk which is bonkers and essentially defeats the entire point of the protocol.

So now we have a total shit show where the EC marched MS's to the top of the hill about the risks of not having a hard border in the North Sea, cant march them down again (especially not with Boris's behaviour); but at the same time it is causing huge political problems with the unionists.

The reality is 90% of it could be solved with a green lane type system for big supermarkets and wholesalers and market surveillance, and the remaining 10% with some flexible approaches to governance.

There is no chance of UK sausages being shipped by Tesco from GB to NI and then nefariously diverted via Dublin to France; and in any case on other borders the EU does not deal with this by the massive rate of checks they are demanding on the NI/GB border.

And the whole concept of the EC setting tax rules for NI and the ECJ was massive over-reach given that the supposed risk was almost entirely around movement of non-certified goods in a way that would undercut the EU single market.

Still, it is what it is now.


Seb
Member
Thu Jul 07 11:24:31
WtB:

Less like Trump: I think on balance people recognise it was a mistake but there is no appetite to try and re-litigate the past.

I know it sounds stupid, but a fair chunk of people who now think it was wrong to have left, are not sold on the idea that we can undo it in any meaningful way, and they feel that the last thing we need is years of another referendum and trying to re-enter the SM and all the division for the rump of loons that think it was somehow a good idea.

If labour win the next election, the first term will be around alignment with the SM in relatively low key ways; rejoin the EU or SM/CU will be the next terms project at earliest.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jul 07 11:49:43
"admitting you were wrong would be, like "Wait, if I was wrong, that means Ive behaved shockingly badly", and rather than swallow that bitter pill its easier to dig down as hard as you can"

Digging in as hard as you can, like fabricating a pedophilia story, instead of admitting it was exceptionally bad behavior to berate and act aggressively towards a mentally ill homeless poor old bastard.

Much projection I sense in you.
williamthebastard
Member
Thu Jul 07 12:07:21
I suppose there must be a lot of Brexit fatigue
murder
Member
Thu Jul 07 12:43:18

The other side never gets fatigued.

Seb
Member
Thu Jul 07 13:18:34
Nim:

" like fabricating a pedophilia story"

Yes Nim, like fabricating a paedophilia story. I can't think who here has demonstrably spuriously slurred their opponents as potential paedophiles.
williamthebastard
Member
Thu Jul 07 15:06:22
Btw, Kung Fu Fighter, here's me posting on his twitter at the time I'd found out about his neighbours reporting him for suspected pedophilia (which all ended with him not ever being allowed to know where his kids had been taken, given new surnames, and leaving his house in the UK to live in a van in France) in one of his insane conspiracy threads full of lies about his kids that I mentioned.

http://twitter.com/RoyFox2/status/1161736074898673664
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jul 07 15:45:04
Seb
You totally butchered what I said (as usual) and misappropriating the context where it was said.

"Do I know for a fact that seb is a pedophile or some kind of stooge for the deep state trying to cover up the tracks of Epstein? I hope not, but there is no way to know, is there?"

I stand by the statment. You see, bad faith changes everything :) unless you tell me there is a pathology to your behavior and I will apologize, certainly not go boast about it and truly be very remorseful. It's as if there are is a context to things and stuff, a series of events that matter, not an atomistic look on the single pieces.

Classic seb.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jul 07 15:47:39
WTB
"witter.com"

Cool story bro.
williamthebastard
Member
Thu Jul 07 15:48:35

So, what does a decent human being do who's being hurling insults at a person and then finds out they were completely wrong? A decent person with a bit of honour? Think about that for a while ;)
Seb
Member
Thu Jul 07 15:57:06
Nim:

Yes, yes, we all know your practiced disingenuity "Technically I didn't imply, I merely led people to infer". Well done you, with your 6th form debating skills. Very clever. But it's still reprehensible, dishonest, and dishonourable and disgusting. And you later went further.

You are in no position to be criticising WtB here.
Seb
Member
Thu Jul 07 15:59:05
You are even using the form of the classic exemplar of a bad faith loaded question.

Kindly fuck off back to the moral sewer you inhabit.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jul 07 16:06:37
WTB
I don't know that you need to go and apologize to the guy, from your description he doesn't seem very receptive. Just promise me to keep your cool, maybe some mindfulness to relieve stress and anxiety ;)

Also! Don't LARP social worker if you do not understand what you are getting into. Understand that if a person is going to change, it takes time, sometimes a lot of time.

I used to do that, with young boys/men. God how many times I wanted to punch these fucking idiots or berate them for the stupid things they said. Thank god good sense prevailed.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Thu Jul 07 16:21:41
Seb
"You are even using the form of the classic exemplar of a bad faith loaded question."

It's an honor to get this kind of acknowledgment from one of the pioneers of the field. My mom will be proud :,)
Habebe
Member
Thu Jul 07 22:19:06
Boris resigned...just saying.
Seb
Member
Fri Jul 08 03:04:06
Wow, they are letting him stay on as care taker PM (and draft a resignation honours list), even on the day he finally admitted that as foreign secretary he ditched his security escort and went off to have a party with a KGB officer in the middle of a diplomatic crisis following the Salisbury novichok attack.

(He subsequently as PM gave said KGB officers son a peerage, making him a member of the legislature technically, and thus exempt from counter intelligence operations unless authorised by the PM)

The Tories are fucking mental.
Seb
Member
Fri Jul 08 03:05:15
Nim:

Well at least I don't make light of paedophilia.
murder
Member
Fri Jul 08 05:52:47

"He subsequently as PM gave said KGB officers son a peerage, making him a member of the legislature technically, and thus exempt from counter intelligence operations unless authorised by the PM"

Russia Russia Russia! Everyone is a Russian asset!

Seb
Member
Fri Jul 08 08:12:17
Murder:

There's a lot of connections between some of the brexit campaigns and (particularly banks, who meet regularly with the Russian embassy and appears to have been offered sweet heart business deals).

It will not be as simple as being on the payroll.

It will be indiscretion, an accidental source of information, and influence via social connections.

Lebedev (the guy in question) helped convince him to support Brexit as a good career decision.
Seb
Member
Fri Jul 08 08:13:43
Subversion is a lot more complex and subtle than a fanatical commie or bribed patsy meeting their handler in a park and muttering code phrases over bribes and threats of kompromat.
williamthebastard
Member
Fri Jul 08 08:24:22
But its also a matter of western far right-wingers simply sharing a lot of views with Putin, the stock conservative macho-man who sneers at libruhls and fags. I notice all the time, in my old classmate from St Petersburg, that he sounds just like a Trumpist, or even a Brexiteer, with the various national symbols switched, of course. If you visit the Swedish site Flashback.org, Scandinavias oldest and most important far-right site, you'll see the far-right populists and the neo-nazis all fawning over Putin.
williamthebastard
Member
Fri Jul 08 08:27:34
Russian propagandists planted their seeds in already fertile ground
murder
Member
Fri Jul 08 09:46:51

"There's a lot of connections between some of the brexit campaigns and (particularly banks, who meet regularly with the Russian embassy and appears to have been offered sweet heart business deals)."

I was making fun of the right wing screwballs that try to discredit evidence of Russian influence campaigns.

murder
Member
Fri Jul 08 09:50:40

"Subversion is a lot more complex and subtle than a fanatical commie or bribed patsy meeting their handler in a park and muttering code phrases over bribes and threats of kompromat."

The man ditched his security detail to meet with a KGB officer (this seems to be a pattern) and then immunized the guy's son from counter intelligence operations. In this particular case I think we can ignore subtlety and complexity.

Seb
Member
Fri Jul 08 10:00:59
WtB:

Think it is the other way around: Putin makes a big deal for these things in order to curry favour with that faction, so that he can make it harder for authoritarian populist politicians to take a hard line against Russia.

He does not give a flying fuck about trans rights in the US.

BUT if that is a wedge issue in the US that can create division, and if he can convince a faction of the US population that he is on there side of a civilizational conflict, then the populist leaders aiming to tap into that vein of discontent will not be able to effectively mobilise support for measures contrary to Russian interest very easily.
Seb
Member
Fri Jul 08 10:06:18
murder:

Oh - sorry - slow of me. It's been a long day.

"The man ditched his security detail to meet with a KGB officer (this seems to be a pattern) and then immunized the guy's son from counter intelligence operations. In this particular case I think we can ignore subtlety and complexity."

Yeah, but I don't think he would actually realise that this is what he has done.

He went to a party with his old friend Lebedev who introduced him to his dad while he got pissed! Obviously he ditched his kill-joy security guards!
And sure, he gave Lebedev Jr a peerage - that's what you do (and why else was this guy giving him these freebie holidays).

He just thinks he's being slightly corrupt, Lebedev Jr is a business man that is showering him with freebies for a bit of establishment credibility and status in the UK and basking in Boris's reflected glory as a powerful UK statesman.

He is manifestly unsuited for power because of this: absolutely no judgement; irrespective of principles, honour or public spirit.
williamthebastard
Member
Fri Jul 08 10:07:23
^Although that only addresses his motives, not the fact that a lot of our far right wingers like his stance in general, such as not giving a flying fuck about transgenders, not liking mooslems, etc. not to mention his all important nationalism. Eastern Europe in general swung from corrupt socialism to corrupt conservatism several decades ago, thus, many shared viewpoints
williamthebastard
Member
Fri Jul 08 10:13:00
Honestly, the actual connection between Trump and Putin, imo, was probably that Trump thought, yeah, that guy gets me, we can do business and see eye to eye on a lot of stuff. Meanwhile, Putin was thinking, this dumb oaf is perfect for my plans ro rebuild the russian empire
Seb
Member
Fri Jul 08 10:13:18
And sadly this is a way a lot of subversion has happened in the US and UK I think.

The anglo-american world was so sure it had won the cold war when communism collapsed and willing to let in the Russian money as merely just another part of the tacit corruption that politicians and business interests that we turn a blind eye to in capitalist democracy because elections cost money and which are supposed to be kept in check by the press and understanding of limits.

They did not want to conceive that it might be not corruption but actual subversion in the interests of the Russian state (and many still do not want to do that because it is inconvenient, or they are in too deep).

Hence you have the idiot trumpists that refuse to recognise that Trump's interests in a Moscow tower are exactly subversion - "oh no, it's just business interests".

We've let elections become a a fucking cesspit - made even worse with how we have let news media become a branch of the entertainment industry and colonise politics.

We've gone from "politicians need to sell a narrative in order to gain power and legitimacy" to "media need politicians to sell a narrative so we can sell advertising"
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Jul 09 08:11:54
lol :) The UP archives is fun:

http://utopiaforums.com/boardthread?id=politics&thread=84376


Williamthebastard
Member Sat Jun 01 07:00:58
Shut up you fucking kiddie-fiddler. Thanks.

Williamthebastard
Member Sat Jun 01 07:04:28
Oh and you might want to swap your phd for a caddie course. The UK sure makes good servants and butlers for US billionaires

Seb
Member Sat Jun 01 10:10:35
WtB:

Kiddie fiddler?
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