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Utopia Talk / Politics / Earthpig - military psychology
williamthebastard
Member
Sat Aug 06 15:23:03
The psychology behind military training: things like marching on the spot until the sarge barks the order to stop, various meaningless tasks like everyone polish their boots – again, perfect beds that the sarge can bounce a coin on or else you have to do it again (personal experience), various countries military forces that have certain forms of marching that are straight out of the ministry of silly walks, etc. Sweating in huge silly hats and staring into the middle distance even though its perfectly obvious you can see the drunken tourist standing 1 foot in front of you taking the piss. Etc.
Is there any documented benefit to these kinds of things peculiar to the military and perhaps prisons, or are they added-on, useless expressions of a punitive culture, a hammer that thinks everything is a nail? Marching on the spot staring to the right until the sarge barks the order to stop might be one way of hammering in group unity and coordinated movement, but is it really the most efficient way, or does tradition trump efficiency?
murder
Member
Sat Aug 06 17:08:50

Getting soldiers to do things just because they are told to is the foundation of any military organization.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sat Aug 06 18:36:04
The military takes teenage civilians who want to play war and turns them into members of the warrior cult, right down to the break down of individuality and isolation from the outside world during boot camp.

How would you go about creating a cult? Well, you weed out all the people who for one reason or another do not belong there and unable or ultimately unwilling to do the cults bidding. That could be breaking down under stress, unwilling to follow order you disagree with/too good for, unable to follow instruction or simply being prone to physical injury.

Just go study religious cults and you will see the similarities.
jergul
large member
Sat Aug 06 23:13:21
A lot of training is researched and documented.

Check out West Point for thesises for doctorates and Phds if you want to dip into it.
earthpig
GTFO HOer
Sun Aug 07 01:44:38
Instant and willing obedience to orders has many benefits. Not the least of which is that "an 80% correct decision executed well is better than a 95% correct decision executed poorly (due to pausing to hold a committee meeting on the correct course of action)." Go watch Saving Private Ryan or your fav war movie, and add in a committee meeting for every simple instruction (which is basically how the civilian world works, there's the leisure time to engage in such things).

Officers training (even the brand new officers with zero military experience), SNCO training, etc, does not emphasize the instant and willing obedience to orders nearly as much. The decisions they are involved in actually might benefit from some discussion. At some level the junior most officer is going to have some instant and willing obedience ("take your platoon to that treeline and clear it") in *initiating* the action, but once everyone is on the move towards that treeline, there will be some dead time, and a good platoon commander will be getting clarity on the Commander's Intent (proper noun).

NCO training emphasizes relaying orders correctly and ensuring they are carried out.

Where one thing is emphasized, and where it isn't, isn't all a big coincidence.

I don't think it's a "useless expressions of a punitive culture, a hammer that thinks everything is a nail," it serves a purpose. It's not emphasized as much where it's not as relevant.

USMC and Coast Guard have the most emphasis on instant and willing obedience to orders (go watch 3 random youtube videos about USMC and USCG boot camp).

Army and Navy come next (go watch 3 random youtube videos each about Navy and Army boot camp).

USAF last place.

And Space Force is obviously just a netflix sitcom.

USMC and USCG in top position both emphasize smaller unit actions (individual troops, small ships) where time is more compressed.

Army is ground based and Navy is sea based, but there's a parallel here. Bigger troop movements and bigger ship movements are assumed, time is more spread out. You can't turn 100 tanks on a dime, you can't turn a carrier battle group on a dime, what does it matter if the command is executed immediately or after some discussion? And you see variance within the Army and Navy as well, once the ship mechanic is in Navy SEAL school, suddenly instant/willing is important, "Boot camp" is essentially just started over from scratch and nothing you did up to that point means shit because it didn't emphasize instant/willing obedience to orders.

The Marine Corps a while back spent time talking about the "4 block war." The Army has always been about WW3.

Once we have our first space conflict, I suspect one of a few things will happen with Space Force training.

If human reaction times matter (given how fucking fast shit can move in space), Space Force will start to pick up USMC/USCG stuff. If AI is doing that same stuff, human reaction times will not matter, so no reason to emphasize instant and willing obedience to orders. If AI is "off" by default, but it needs to be turned "on" to stop the baddies, then instant/willing becomes important, as will rote execution of a well rehearsed script (to get past the 5 failsafes to turn the AI on and put it in charge).
McKobb
Member
Sun Aug 07 02:15:38
>>> And Space Force is obviously just a netflix sitcom.

:P
williamthebastard
Member
Sun Aug 07 07:01:35
So, conditioning unquestioning immediacy. Its not really Pavlovian, though, in that there's lots of stick but little carrot. You'll surely find more cases of useless "expressions of a punitive culture" in e.g. the Russian army vs e.g. the Norwegian army and also, in general, a lot less of the whole barking thing, so surely, how we implement these techniques in practice will very likely simply be up to the ethics of individual nations rather than proven science.
williamthebastard
Member
Sun Aug 07 07:11:48
Its amusing that when I was a conscript, conscripts having full civilian protection who cant really be punished by officers in any way other than not allowing them to leave the compound for the weekend in serious cases, a conscript who was at some level aware that there was a lot of theatre going on here, that any punishment I might get for any offenses was imaginary, still completely fell into the immediate unquestioning immediacy mode, along with all the other conscripts. Thats people in groups for ya.
williamthebastard
Member
Sun Aug 07 07:24:28
The latter example makes me question how much the barking bit is needed. My conscript colleagues and I fell into the theater of it all and accepted the threat of basically imaginary or very weak punishment as being more real than it was. Instead, we were following things like doing what we all knew was considered acceptable vs. unacceptable within our new social universe.
williamthebastard
Member
Sun Aug 07 07:26:12
Things like wanting to show we could contribute to the group, not let it down, gain acceptance and friendship etc.
williamthebastard
Member
Sun Aug 07 07:31:37
We were, in fact, worried about punishment. The punishment that in practice motivated us was the fear of being ostracized or not gaining respect.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Aug 07 07:58:27
All your examples are from boot camp and everything there is about shedding people who will be useless for the purpose. You only get so far with aptitude test.

This is basic hygien. You are overthinking it. Cultural variations are cultural variations. Cultures that are on average harsher, will on average have harsher boot camps as a direct reflection of their culture. This applies to prison systems as well, and you can see the cultural clash in Sweden, importing people from very rough places with horrible dungeon like prisons and the slow realization that the mild and meek way in which Sweden deals with criminals is being gamed, e.g using minors to kill people, ”elaborate” escapes, total disregars for the soft approach of the police, and relatively low sentenced etc and so on. In their home countries, they would have been flogged.
williamthebastard
Member
Sun Aug 07 08:06:37
This was 11 months as a member of the telegraphist troops (whatever thats called today) and consisted of fairly advanced sabotage of enemy communications and preparing your own communications, literally digging down secret cables in the forests and sitting in trees with earphones, which I hated and managed to get out of, and then as a simple guard.
This was basic training of the populace for various war tasks. Crime in many of those countries with levels of violence that have spiralled beyond Sweden still have much, much more violence than Sweden. The empirical results of a pretty tough US punitive system and cases of recidivism vs. e.g. the Norwegian punitive system and cases of recidivism must also be considered here. I am simply thinking aloud about what I think mainly motivated me and my buddies at a more fundamental level back then.
williamthebastard
Member
Sun Aug 07 08:14:49
I have to say, though, that that time they ended our basic training after 3 nights in the forests hardly eating, hardly sleeping, endlessly digging and marching with 20kg on our backs with a massive fake attack in the dead of night with colorful explosions and big bangs was a lot of fun that I still remember 30 years later
murder
Member
Sun Aug 07 08:23:55

"I am simply thinking aloud about what I think mainly motivated me and my buddies at a more fundamental level back then."

Apparently not a lot.

"... which I hated and managed to get out of ..."

When you are assigned a job they need you to do it, not figure out how to avoid doing it.

murder
Member
Sun Aug 07 08:26:58

"... which I hated and managed to get out of ..."

This is literally the reason for all the stupid drills. They need to know that you will do things that you don't want to do simply because you are told to.

williamthebastard
Member
Sun Aug 07 08:30:45
I was a most unwilling recruit, the first time they called me up, I refused. They left me alone for a couple of years to calm down and then recruited me again, still an unwilling recruit. What is interesting is that even I, an unwilling actor, conformed, even though I knew that the formal method of sanctions was all bark and zero bite.
williamthebastard
Member
Sun Aug 07 08:52:16
I think the barking in your face has some immediate shock impact, even when you know it cant really be followed up. Although, what is considered acceptable in the group will also affect whether you'll accept the discomfort of being barked at in the face or whether you'll react with aggression. I.e., the group position of the person barking in your face. To react with aggression to a sergeant's commands would make the group gasp, its a taboo, it deviates from the group's expectancy. Perhaps the presence of actual power behind their commands would reinforce their power but I suspect group loyalty, performance and acceptance must be at the very least an equal motivator.
williamthebastard
Member
Sun Aug 07 09:09:07
Today, they would have given me a cushy job in front of a computer, given that I was assigned to the signal troops based on some sort of audio aptitude test results :p
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Aug 07 10:43:34
WTB
I’m having a deja vue, because I remember your experience with conscripation, which is different than volunteer proffesional militaries. Then there is an additional personal aspect to this as well, you are/were the kind of person who had an aversion to this cult, at the gate. You were more likely to react strongly and negatively to this environment. I had a friend who was dying to do service and then 3 weeks in he was desperate to get out. He couldn’t stand it.

I think I would make a good drone operator :)

Regarding violent crime rates, there are many confounders, but there is less crime generally in places like Saudi Arabia, Iran and Egypt than Sweden, Norway. It’s a question of how important assumption of innocence is. Not very important in these places. The cost is more innocent people in jails. Most of the violence is political and/or inter-tribal. Iran is very culturally and ethnically diverse compared to Norway. Contributes to tribal and political violence.

But even if what I am saying here is false about crime rates, people (criminals) who are used to very harsh treatment will abuse a more lenient one rather than conform to it, it’s very rational when crime is all you know. There is even data that shows there is a pull effect. Sweden is getting disproprotionatly more people who have already been convicted in their home country, even when that home country is Finland or Norway. News travels fast these days, travel is easy and cheap, border controls are meh.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Aug 07 12:27:38
Forget about my speculations on crime rate and due process, it is a half cooked idea I have, that I have not recearched and I realize I am mixing regime type and due process, which are two independent variables.
williamthebastard
Member
Sun Aug 07 18:38:21
I wouldnt advocate SA's brutal penal system, personally, which coincidentally happens to also be a very rich country. They have a barbaric penal system. Crime levels in other parts of the world with similarly extreme penalties remain the highest in the world. But this thread is not about throwing Swedish immigrants or transgenders out of Sweden.
williamthebastard
Member
Sun Aug 07 18:58:57
If you want to read up on discipline and punishment, theres this guy called Foucault who wrote a famous book on the subject called Discipline and Punish, can download the pdf for free.

C'mon, a textbook book that begins like this would convert anyone:



On 2 March 1757 Damiens the regicide was condemned ‘to make the amende honorable before the main door of the Church of Paris*, where he was to be ‘taken and conveyed in a cart, wearing nothing but a shirt, holding a torch of burning wax weighing two pounds’; then, ‘in the said cart, to the Place de Gr£ve, where, on a scaffold that will be erected there, the flesh will be tom from his breasts, arms, thighs and calves with red-hot pincers, his right hand, holding the knife with which he committed the said parricide, burnt with sulphur, and, on those places where the flesh will be torn away, poured molten lead, boiling oil, burning resin, wax and sulphur melted together and then his body drawn and quartered by four horses and his limbs and body consumed by fire, reduced to ashes and his ashes thrown to the winds' {Pieces originales . . 3 7 2 - 4 ) .
‘Finally, he was quartered/ recounts the Gazette d*Amsterdam of 1 April 1757. ‘This last operation was very long, because the horses used were not accustomed to drawing; consequendy, instead of four, six were needed; and when that did not suffice, they were forced, in order to cut off the wretch’s thighs, to sever the sinews
and hack at the joints...
‘It is said that, though he was always a great swearer, no blas¬
phemy escaped his lips; but the excessive pain made him utter horrible cries, and he often repeated: “ My God, have pity on me! Jesus, help me!” The spectators were all edified by the solicitude of the parish priest of St Paul’s who despite his great age did not spare himself in offering consolation to the patient.1
Bouton, an officer of the watch, left us his account: ‘The sulphur was lit, but the flame was so poor that only the top skin of the hand was burnt, and that only slightly. Then the executioner, his sleeves rolled up, took the steel pincers, which had been especially made for the occasion, and which were about a foot and a half long, and pulled first at the calf of the right leg, then at the thigh, and from there at the two fleshy parts of the right arm; then at the breasts. Though a strong, sturdy fellow, this executioner found it so difficult to tear away the pieces o f flesh that he set about the same spot two or three times, twisting the pincers as he did so, and what he took away formed at each part a wound about the size of a six-pound crown piece.
‘After these tearings with the pincers, Damiens, who cried out profusely, though without swearing, raised his head and looked at himself; the same executioner dipped an iron spoon in the pot con¬ taining the boiling potion, which he poured liberally over each wound. Then the ropes that were to be harnessed to the horses were attached with cords to the patient’s body; the horses were then harnessed and placed alongside the arms and legs, one at each limb.
‘Monsieur Le Breton, the clerk of the court, went up to the patient several times and asked him if he had anything to say. He said he had not; at each torment, he cried out, as the damned in hell are supposed to cry out, “Pardon, my God! Pardon, Lord.” Despite all this pain, he raised his head from time to time and looked at himself boldly. The cords had been tied so tightly by the men who pulled the ends that they caused him indescribable pain. Monsieur le Breton went up to him again and asked him if he had anything to say; he said no. Several confessors went up to him and spoke to him at length; he willingly kissed the crucifix that was held out to him; he opened his lips and repeated: “ Pardon, Lord.”
‘The horses tugged hard, each pulling straight on a limb, each horse held by an executioner. After a quarter of an hour, the same ceremony was repeated and finally, after several attempts, the direction of the horses had to be changed, thus: those at the arms were made to pull towards the head, those at the thighs towards the arms, which broke the arms at the joints. This was repeated several times without success. He raised his head and looked at himself. Two more horses had to be added to those harnessed to the thighs, which made six horses in all. Without success.
‘Finally, the executioner, Samson, said to Monsieur Le Breton that there was no way or hope of succeeding, and told him to ask their Lordships if they wished him to have the prisoner cut into pieces. Monsieur Le Breton, who had come down from the town, ordered that renewed efforts be made, and this was done; but the horses gave up and one of those harnessed to the thighs fell to the ground. The confessors returned and spoke to him again. He said to them (I heard him): “ Kiss me, gentlemen.” The parish priest of St Paul's did not dare to, so Monsieur de Marsilly slipped under the rope holding the left arm and kissed him on the forehead. The executioners gathered round and Damiens told them not to swear, to carry out their task and that he did not think ill of them; he begged them to pray to God for him, and asked the parish priest of St Paul’s to pray for him at the first mass.
‘After two or three attempts, the executioner Samson and he who had used the pincers each drew out a knife from his pocket and cut the body at the thighs instead of severing the legs at the joints; the four horses gave a tug and carried off the two thighs after them, namely, that of the right side first, the other following; then the same was done to the arms, the shoulders, the arm-pits and the four limbs; the flesh had to be cut almost to the bone, the horses pulling hard carried off the right arm first and the other afterwards.
‘When the four limbs had been pulled away, the confessors came to speak to him; but his executioner told them that he was dead, though the truth was that I saw the man move, his lower jaw moving from side to side as if he were talking. One of the executioners even said shortly afterwards that when they had lifted the trunk to throw it on the stake, he was still alive. The four limbs were untied from the ropes and thrown on the stake set up in the enclosure in line with the scaffold, then the trunk and the rest were covered with logs and faggots, and fire was put to the straw mixed with this wood.
\ .. In accordance with the decree, the whole was reduced to ashes. The last piece to be found in the embers was still burning at half-past ten in the evening. The pieces of flesh and the trunk had taken about four hours to bum. The officers of whom I was one, as also was my son, and a detachment of archers remained in the square until nearly eleven o’clock.
‘There were those who made something of the fact that a dog had lain the day before on the grass where the fire had been, had been chased away several times, and had always returned. But it is not difficult to understand that an animal found this place warmer than elsewhere* (quoted in Zevaes, 201-14).

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Sun Aug 07 19:30:22
An honest question, do you really believe I am advocating for Saudi Arabian penal code? I’m asking because a very common way for us to derail is me describing something as I see it, and you or someone else interpreting it as a normative statement.

I wouldn’t for instance advocate sharia dress code, but at the same time an observation is that sharia style dress code, reduces sexual signaling to 0. Sharia style gender segregation reduces unwanted sexual encounters. It is a millennia old solution to #metoo.

That pdf has been on a bookmark since Cherub Cow recommended it. I never seem to get around to it. I will, I promise.
murder
Member
Sun Aug 07 20:32:22

"It is a millennia old solution to #metoo."

You can't possibly believe that. The only thing that is a solution to is men maintaining absolute control of women.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Aug 08 04:46:36
I will repeat the physical facts for you again, since you are one of the dumber posters.

Islamic dress code effectively reduces sexual signaling to 0.
Gender segregation reduces unwanted sexual encounters.

By your logic the fact that you think women should walk around half naked and drunk in the name of “freedom” is to make them easier prey for male predators.
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Aug 08 05:24:12
I would give you half a point, because the purpose of the system is to control men and women, or society as it is commonly called. But in this case getting half right is to get nothing right.

murder
Member
Mon Aug 08 05:34:18

"I will repeat the physical facts for you again ..."

I will repeat my objection to your post again ...

"It is a millennia old solution to #metoo."

Sharia dress code does not exist to keep women from getting harassed, assaulted, or exploited.

Also ...

http://cdn...994557197-44083361_400x400.jpg

I hope that helps.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Aug 08 05:55:31
Yes it does. It draws very clear bounderies around liabilities. A man who strays into female only areas will get flogged. Men whi dress up as women to grope (it happens) get flogged. A man who rapes will get executed. Likewise a woman who does not follow the code, only has herself to blame.

You have to be retarded to not understand what gender segregation means. Strict code means there is no unsupervised intermingling.

Men are no the social police of women, it’s the women numbnuts. It’s female morality police that deal with women.
murder
Member
Mon Aug 08 08:56:18

Oh I see ... women run the islamic world. I was confused about that.

Also ...

http://cdn...994557197-44083361_400x400.jpg
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Aug 08 09:12:02
They are closer to running Islamic cultures than you are to making any valid points or showing signs that you possess mammal level intelligence.

I don’t mind treating you in the language you understand.
murder
Member
Mon Aug 08 09:48:02

Yeah. Also ...

http://cdn...994557197-44083361_400x400.jpg

Seb
Member
Mon Aug 08 15:45:30
EP:

Your assessment on space was spot on, but this amused me:

" as will rote execution of a well rehearsed script (to get past the 5 failsafes to turn the AI on and put it in charge)."

Reminds me of the story how first gen PAC keys on nukes were all set to 0000 so that in the need fire on warning, operational commanders would not need to wait for codes to be released via chain of command.
Seb
Member
Mon Aug 08 15:46:43
*the point about fail safes on AI and automatic decision making would in part be there to slow down the decision making and ensure it is a good idea or not - not just prevent an accidental enabling.
Seb
Member
Mon Aug 08 15:52:09
FWIW I think space warfare will be much like cruise missile strikes.

Lots of up front planning, then execution too quick for any reasonable input from humans. Where too quick may mean:
"will take 30 minutes from go to completion but the enemy will not be able to do much about it" and
"the actual final stage manoeuvres a target and a kill vehicle make to evade and track are determined in milliseconds and not suitable for humans either".

That's unless we get 100kw to 1mw class directed energy weapons in orbit.

Then it becomes like nuclear war:

"press the big red button to initiate SIOP and see if their strategy was better than ours".
nhill
Member
Mon Aug 08 16:30:28
>It is a millennia old solution to #metoo.

The teachings of Islam concerning hijab (the veil) and segregation of the sexes is probably the most confusing and difficult to accept for Western society. This is because of the widespread and erroneous notion that observing hijab is a heavy restriction imposed on Muslim women. In fact, the very opposite is true. You will find that hijab is a means of protecting women, and providing them with freedom from many social ills. The word "purdah" is also used to describe the concept and the practice of hijab.

A woman who is following the rules of hijab in her dress and actions is not likely to be treated in a disrespectful way by men. Thus hijab/purdah provides Muslim women with freedom from some of the problems that women in Western society are facing today. In Islam woman is not regarded as a "sex object," nor is she exploited or harassed in this demeaning manner. As you are probably aware, various feminist movements are trying to deal with these issues today, sometimes with little success.
williamthebastard
Member
Mon Aug 08 17:33:14
Swedish conscripts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLJ8ILIE780
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Aug 08 18:45:35
Nhill
I wish I could take credit for this, but it was Bret Weinstein. For me just putting *all* the fact on table is important to figure what we are unraveling, instead of just looking at it blindly from the power and oppression lens. In more practical terms in helps explain why these conservatives/modesty ideas persist even in the west. Well it actually does something for women.

We are one of the few species with very ambiguous natural sexual signals. You look at all the other great apes and the females have very clear physical signals when they are ovulating, human female, none. So we humans use social and cultural artifacts to do that, make up and clothing etc, but that stuff was hijacked and commercialized very quickly. And somewhere along the line the other side of it, _modesty_ and turning off sexual signals went completely out of the window and we started worshiping sex and brain washing girls from before they are teens to aspire to be porn stars.

We done fucked up. Bigly.
murder
Member
Mon Aug 08 19:19:08

Rules imposed on women are never for the benefit of women. There are no exceptions.

Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Aug 08 19:43:58
Rules and restrictions are imposed on men and women. Just that when it comes to sexuality, male sexuality is not exploited and commercialized nearly to the same degree. For sure and for the sake of women this asymmetry requires more than white knight talking points.

Don't worry nobody is talking about forbidding you from raising the next generation of porn stars. This is a cultural and social issue (not a legal one) and we have clearly gone off the deep end of "sexual liberalization" when we have toddler body suits that read "porn star in training".

http://www...e=prd4k8xYR8IG2gB9q3l8-1039-10

Probably the sanity is somehere between a burka and that abomination at the link. Probably closer to a burka if I am being honest. Who the fuck buys that for their child? You understand that your "muh women's rights" falls flat, when we are living in a part of the world where shit like this exists?
Nimatzo
iChihuaha
Mon Aug 08 19:54:42
You are training them from diaper age to become whores basically. This isn't a problem men have. Corporations are not calculating new ways to sell and capitalize on the male body. It's starting to pick up, but generally men's issues manifest in the over-consumption of porn as various basement dwelling creatures. Awful, but not nearly as awful.

And listen I am still the same person who thinks it should be legal to sell and buy sex, but should every fucking aspect of our culture promote it? Probably not right?
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